White House: Bush Has Confidence in Rove

[maddezmom]

By PETE YOST, Associated Press Writer
16 minutes ago



WASHINGTON - After two days of questions, the White House said Tuesday that President Bush continues to have confidence in Karl Rove, the presidential adviser at the center of the investigation into the leak identifying a female CIA officer. Meanwhile, prominent Democrats are calling for Rove to be fired.


Bush did not respond to a reporter's question Tuesday about whether he would fire Rove, in keeping with a June 2004 pledge to dismiss any leakers of Valerie Plame's identity.

At a White House briefing afterward, spokesman Scott McClellan was pressed about Rove's future.

"Any individual who works here at the White House has the confidence of the president. They wouldn't be working here at the White House if they didn't have the president's confidence," McClellan said.

more: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050712/ap_on_go_pr_wh/cia_leak_investigation_19

[merwin]

1. That was the one thing that Scotty let slip during the press conference.

[katty]

17. Confidence of a lying Prez? Do the PEOPLE have confidence

in bush and rove? that IS the question-and according to the polls lately-The People has NO confidence in their dog and pony show.

[Dulcinea]

50. Of course Boy George has confidence in Rove.

That, however, doesn't answer the question of whether or not he blew the cover of a covert CIA agent or lied about it.

[MeDeMax]

36. yes, everything else was stamped...

no comment on ongoing investigation.

[Stephanie]

2. BushCO's Fatal Flaw will prove to be -

refusing to ever admit when they are wrong.

[jean]

4. refusing to take responsibility for ANYTHING

[rc lewis]

9. No one will ever be fired ever

It's their MO. Never lose face. Rumsfeld will stay on till he dies or the term's over. Rove will never be asked to step down no matter what happens. They've learned from Nixon and Reagan.

[Stephanie]

25. correct - but they will be indicted anyway

let the frogmarch start right from the WH gate! that will be good TV!

[Moose_head]

27. Rove might even step down on his own-

kkkarls' main role on Team BFEE was to make sure that two elections were properly stolen- he's done that, and there won't be anymore campaigns to run- he could retire, and move into the private sector, where he'll probably be offered A LOT of Board positions for various companies and causes.

[Cha]

45. They need to have some

BLOWBACK, then. They're going the opposite extreme..so not being rational it will have unintended consequences.

[PDXWoman]

7. Unbelievable.

All I can say is WOW. Deep, deep, deep denial.

[Journeyman]

22. i.e., hubris. . .

n/t

[Justice]

53. That is their true Achilles Heel

[Stephanie]

77. thank you, I believe it is

Remember that press conference where they asked bush if he had made any mistakes, and he refused to admit he had? This will be their downfall - refusal to back down, refusal to admit they are wrong, insistence on infallibility. It's a must-lose position to take.

[wallwriter]

3. Send Rove to Gitmo til the War on Terror is over.

[aquart]

5. Get out the marmalade.

Rove is toast.

[DrZeeLit]

28. Yep...fork it over!

He's done.
The minute they have "faith" in anybody... at least one fott is OUT THE DOOR.

[Cha]

46. Like bolton?

I'm just sayin'..they'll hang in there until the fatman screams.."I DID IT, I DID IT!"

[Straight Shooter]

6. Ooh, ooh, ooh, the bush "confidence kiss of death"

You know someone is in big-time trouble when they trot out the Great Pretender to do his "stand by my man" routine.

Sit down, Little Boots, and shut up.

[Barrett808]

20. First thing I thought, too -- "Kiss of death" n/t

[BeHereNow]

8. If they insist along this line, they further prove INCOMPETENCE

To continue stating confidence in light of the facts
that have been revealed so far, the White House (Bush)
will simply look more incompetent to make decisions
as the POTUS.
It is as if they don't care if it appears that way...
Frightening if you think about it.
BHN

[H5N1]

10. My guess: Rove walks without breaking out a sweat

Business as usual.

[CityDem]

31. Ding - Ding - Ding

We have a winner here. Rove is going to skate and will leave the white house on his own terms. Once he is out of the the white house, he will resume a very lucrative political consulting pratice and make tons of cash. These guys take teflon to a whole new level -- nothing ever sticks to them.

[Lowell]

43. Yeah, that's right

after all GHWBush fired him years ago and he is back. We haven't seen the last of KKKRove.

[MaineDem]

11. But he wouldn't answer whether Rove's duties have changed

He flat refused to answer!

[maddezmom]

34. from the transcript

Q Scott, back on the situation of the President having confidence in everyone who works for him, does this confidence allow for everyone, to include Karl Rove, to conduct the same duties that they were conducting a couple of years ago, today and yesterday?

MR. McCLELLAN: Yes.

Q So Karl Rove is still --

MR. McCLELLAN: I don't know if the duties are the same, because the agenda has moved quite a ways since then.

Q So nothing has changed in the way of his duties with the President. And what has his interaction been with the President in the last couple of days?

MR. McCLELLAN: As I pointed out at the beginning, any individual that is working here at the White House and doing their job has the confidence of the President in the job that they are doing. They wouldn't be here if they didn't have the confidence of the President of the United States.

And in terms of what we're doing here at the White House, we're trying to implement the President's agenda. We're going about working on helping him to make a decision to fill the Supreme Court vacancy that exists. We're moving forward on important pieces of legislation like the energy plan that the President outlined and that has been passed by both chambers, and that they're working to get passed. We're trying to move forward on passing the Central American Free Trade Agreement. There are a number of important priorities that we are focused on. And that's what everybody here at the White House is working on.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/07/20050712-4.html

[onehandle]

12. I also have Confidence in Rove.

Confidence that he'll do just fine in the private sector whether or not he spends several decades in a Federal Prison.

There's gone, and there's gone.

[goclark]

55. That criminal Oliver North sure skated

I met him about 15 yrs. ago, pushing his new book and pushing his new company that made "Security Vest" and security systems I believe the game was at the time.

I am sure he is a multi millionaire by now.

I was shocked when I saw him. On TV he appeared to be handsome and in charge!

In person, he was average to below in looks, little to no personality and making a fortune.

They do take care of their own.

[thaseint]

13. Would be nice...

If someone in Congress stepped in and say to *:

"If you have faith in Rove, then step up, be a big man and back him. If he's found to be guilty then you are also guilty as an accomplice and you must be treated as a traitor to the United States of America".

I believe something like that would back * in to the corner, since no matter what he does, he'd be screwed (MSM willing).

[lancdem]

14. Basically, McClellan is Rove's mouthpiece

[cally]

15. I hope Rove stays at the WH

That will keep the story alive and further implicate the rest of the criminals. :bounce:

[halobeam]

18. at least it will piss off everyone that hates them, even more

and we'll have MORE leaks and MORE "minutes" and these guys are going down... too many people/business/special interest groups, etc. have been stomped on already by this admin. and they are getting madder and madder.

Murddock will keep his ratings, over *co. The press is PISSED. Lookin' good so far, I'll take it, for now.This story is well alive.

The deeper you dig, the more you find. Can someone please pass the shovel?

[n2doc]

16. Time for the Medal of Freedom!

You just know they are praying/planning for something to come up and distract everyone from this...:banghead:

[GoldenOldie]

19. Bush's loyalty to his friends seems to be greater

than his loyalty to the Oath of Office that he took as POTUS.

Apparently swearing on the bible means very little to The Born Again.

[alkaline9]

21. If shrub has "confidence" in Rove....

...Does that make shrub accountable, now that he's aware of Rove's involvement with Plame, if (more like, WHEN) Rove breaks the law again?

Let's say that Rove breaks national security again... Won't it be shrub's ass on the line now that he's aware or Rove's behaviour?

[donkeyotay]

23. Ah, the classic "answer a question that wasn't asked" gambit

No one asked if Bush had confidence in Rove. The question was whether Bush would keep his pledge to fire anyone involved in leaking Plame's identity.

[maddezmom]

24. the question: So does he retain confidence in Karl Rove, specifically?

Q Well, he has spoken about these questions that have come up as part of a leak investigation. So does he retain confidence in Karl Rove, specifically?

MR. McCLELLAN: Yes. Any individual who works here at the White House has the President's confidence. They wouldn't be working here if they didn't have the President's confidence. That's why I stepped back from this and talked about it in the broader context.

Now, these questions are coming up in the context of an ongoing investigation, and I stated long ago, you all will remember, that the investigation is continuing, I want to be helpful to the investigation, I don't want to jeopardize anything in that investigation, and that's why I made a decision and the White House made a decision quite some time ago that we weren't going to get into commenting on questions related to that investigation.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/07/20050712-4.html

[skip fox]

26. Rove, the Saint of Lost Causes.

Oh yes, and he has faith in private accounts, in Iraq, in Shiavo's possible turn-around, etc.

Here's how it stacks up for Rove, Bush's brain (tumor):


Rove Goes Down In Plames

All data suggest the positive: one or more indictments for Rove and at least one more for another "high administration official," resulting to a loss of Republican credibility of being the party or morals and personal responsibility.

We know there were 6 calls because 6 contacts were made (Miller, Cooper, Novak among them). We know 3 contacts confirmed their stories with another "high administration official."

Therefore

1.) 1 man (named Rove by Cooper) made all 6 calls (which reduces the contention of "unknowingly" providing Plame's identity laughable). But he would have had to make sure that there were a few other "high administration officials" ready and willing to confirm his story, which strongly suggests coordination. Did Rove mastermind this portion before "unknowingly" releasing Plame's identity 6 times? Was this coordination "unknowing" as well? What does "knowing" mean? Repeated deliberate acts and coordinating with others for future support suggest a strong and clear intentions. It has knowledgeable design written all over it.

or,

2.) more than 1 person (Rove and at least one other) made the 6 calls. (The fact that one source released Cooper from his agreement of confidentiality but one source did not release Miller suggest at least 2 sources.) Rove would have more to coordinate! To establish guidelines like: No source should call another's contact, Pitch the information off hand, not as the main subject, Make the contact think the source is trying to do him or her a favor ("Don't go too far out on this Wilson thing, I don't want you burnt."), etc. AND Rove would have had to field a group of officials to support the sources stories.

I say Rove coordinated because it is obvious he did so since anyone in the administration in possession of the Plame-Wilson-CIA link would have gone straight to the world master of deceitful politics, and now we know Rove was at least one of the leakers.


So, in the first case we have at least 2 indictments for Rove (exposing and conspiring to expose) and (perhaps) 1 or more indictments for others (confirming and condoning the exposure while furthering it).

But in the second case we have at least 2 for Rove (same as above, but more evidence of conspiracy) and 1 or more clearcut indictments for others (both leakers and confirmers for exposure).

And then we haven't even begun to ask the question of how Rove got the information. (Doesn't leaking the information to him also constitute a crime?)

[trekbiker]

29. my guess...

Cheney is second leaker

[skip fox]

30. I'm thinking he and Libby since the original request for Wilson's

visit originated in his office and he would feel some responsibility in the issue.

[joeunderdog]

33. Cheney is why Rove giving the OK to Cooper to talk makes sense.

Otherwise, why would Miller stay in jail unless there was a bigger fish to fry? ...And why letting a guy like Rove take a hit could be a strategy for the Bush WH.

It HAS to be to protect someone(s) from above. Miller would be singing like a bird if the whole gig was already up, but she's conspicuously not. Why stay in jail? To protect an underling somewhere? Doubt it.

Rove is clearly taking the heat to protect Cheney or they'll all fry. He's going down either way, so he might as well take the hit. They are just going to try to localize the damage. Could/Should be the biggest WH scandal of all time. It may yet unfold that way.

[ernstbass]

32. Their arrogance never ceases to amaze me

[UpInArms]

35. GWB: Standards of Official Conduct - January 20, 2001

Memorandum
January 20, 2001

MEMORANDUM FOR THE HEADS OF EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENTS AND
AGENCIES

SUBJECT: Standards of Official Conduct

Everyone who enters into public service for the United States has a duty to the American people to maintain the highest standards of integrity in Government. I ask you to ensure that all personnel within your departments and agencies are familiar with, and faithfully observe, applicable ethics laws and regulations, including the following general principles from the Standards of Ethical Conduct for Employees of the Executive Branch:

(1) Public service is a public trust, requiring employees to place loyalty to the Constitution, the laws, and ethical principles above private gain.

(2) Employees shall not hold financial interests that conflict with the conscientious performance of duty.

(3) Employees shall not engage in financial transactions using nonpublic Government information or allow the improper use of such information to further any private interest.

(4) An employee shall not, except as permitted by applicable law or regulation, solicit or accept any gift or other item of monetary value from any person or entity seeking official action from, doing business with, or conducting activities regulated by the employee's agency, or whose interests may be substantially affected by the performance or nonperformance of the employee's duties.

(5) Employees shall put forth honest effort in the performance of their duties.

(6) Employees shall not knowingly make unauthorized commitments or promises of any kind purporting to bind the Government.

(7) Employees shall not use public office for private gain.

(8) Employees shall act impartially and not give preferential treatment to any private organization or individual.

(9) Employees shall protect and conserve Federal property and shall not use it for other than authorized activities.

(10) Employees shall not engage in outside employment or activities, including seeking or negotiating for employment, that conflict with official Government duties and responsibilities.

(11) Employees shall disclose waste, fraud, abuse, and corruption to appropriate authorities.

(12) Employees shall satisfy in good faith their obligations as citizens, including all just financial obligations, especially those -- such as Federal, State, or local taxes -- that are imposed by law.

(13) Employees shall adhere to all laws and regulations that provide equal opportunity for all Americans regardless of race, color, religion, sex, national origin, age, or handicap.

(14) Employees shall endeavor to avoid any actions creating the appearance that they are violating applicable law or the ethical standards in applicable regulations.

Executive branch employees should also be fully aware that their post- employment activities with respect to lobbying and other forms of representation will be bound by the restrictions of 18 U.S.C. 207.

Please thank the personnel of your departments and agencies for their commitment to maintain the highest standards of integrity in Government as we serve the American people.

GEORGE W. BUSH

[adarling]

37. CNN-"Bush confident in Rove"

* doing what * knows best...staying the course-

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/07/12/cia.leaks.ap/index.html

[lovuian]

38. Even though Rove lied and exposed CIA agent maliciously

Bush has confidence!!!

[yojon]

39. Time to cook up a distraction

like a terrorist attack. Maybe they have a little 'white powder' left over from 2001....

[DeepModem Mom]

40. My question here is, what would Bush DO without his "brain"? How...

can he dismiss Rove, and continue in the WH? The only way Rove will leave the WH, IMO, is in a frog-march.

[Initech]

41. This doesnt surprise me at all.

Like I said in another thread - We live in a country where the administration AWARDS people for fucking up.

[raccoon]

88. Yes, Condi is the most egregious example of this. nt

[Cha]

42. Yeah..what Criminal in the regime hasn't

bush professed "confidence" in?

[pinniped]

44. Of course, it will be very hard to replace the hand puppet up his a$$.

.

[greekspeak]

47. I have confidence in Rove too...that he is a criminal

In that I have resounding confidence!

[warsager]

48. Anyone notice this line

from the linked article?

Luskin declined to say how Rove found out that Wilson's wife worked for the CIA and refused to say how Rove came across the information that it was Wilson's wife who authorized his trip to Africa.

But this is a LIE, isn't it?

[Piperay]

49. So fucking what

that doesn't mean anything!

[Seeing Red]

51. Confidence, yes, but did they deny anything?

Did they say that Rove is Innocent?

No, they did not. The bastards are already into damage control mode, they KNOW he was guilty and they're figuring out a good "exit strategy"

[stepnw1f]

52. Bush Doesn't Have Confidence

He has dellusion.

[Panda1]

54. Chimpy is defending a traitor?

Rove is guilty of treason.
Wait, so's Dubya.

[WestMichRad]

56. The weasel will walk

After Rove "goes down in Plames," if convicted he'll be pardoned, and they'll obfuscate and spin this into a partisan attack until the Chimpy's term is up. Wish I could see a better outcome, but I just can't see them ever getting justly nailed. Our best outcome will probably be massive distraction and derailment of their agenda, if the media takes up the scent and stays after them. That'd be worth it.

Thanks to skip fox for the great turn of phrase elsewhere in this thread.

[truthpusher]

57. Transcript WH Briefing: Q to McClellan..."Is what Karl Rove did right?"

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/07/20050712-4.html

Press Briefing by Scott McClellan
-----------------------
James S. Brady Briefing Room
12:56 P.M. EDT
-----------------------
(snip)

Q Well, we'll see. But I just have one final question on this. The question of whether a law has been broken, a crime committed, is a separate matter. You're not going to resolve that; that's for a grand jury to decide. But we know what the facts are. We know that Karl Rove spoke about Joseph Wilson's wife, referring to the fact that she worked at the Agency. You've heard Democrats who say that --say today that alone was inappropriate conduct. What was Karl Rove trying to accomplish by having the conversation he did? And does the President think that it was fair of him to do that? Was it fair game?

MR. McCLELLAN: Now, that's a question related to an ongoing investigation. The investigation continues, David. I think you know that very well. I've responded to that question. And if I were to start commenting on news reports or things related to the investigation, I'm getting into prejudging the outcome of that investigation. I don't want to do that from this podium. Let's let the investigation take place, and let's let the investigators bring all the facts together and draw the conclusions that they draw, and then we will know the facts at that point.

Q But, Scott, there's a difference between what's legal and what's right. Is what Karl Rove did right?

MR. McCLELLAN: Well, I mean, you can state the obvious. I understand and appreciate that, and I appreciate you all. I know you all want to get to the bottom of this. I want to get to the bottom of it; the President has said no one wants to get to the bottom of it more than he does. We want to see it come to a successful conclusion. The best way to help the investigation come to a successful conclusion is for me not to get into discussing it from this podium. I don't think that --

Q Well, wait, wait, wait --

MR. McCLELLAN: Wait -- I don't think that helps advance the investigation.

Q All right, you say you won't discuss it, but the Republican National Committee and others working, obviously, on behalf of the White House, they put out this Wilson-Rove research and talking points, distributed to Republican surrogates, which include things like, Karl Rove discouraged a reporter from writing a false story. And then other Republican surrogates are getting information such as, Cooper -- the Time reporter -- called Rove on the pretense of discussing welfare reform. Bill Kristol on Fox News, a friendly news channel to you, said that the conversation lasted for two minutes and it was just at the end that Rove discussed this. So someone is providing this information. Are you, behind the scenes, directing a response to this story?


more: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/07/20050712-4.html

link to entire transcript: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/07/20050712-4.html

[praisethelowered]

58. ha, ha ,ha

here's a good one-

Q. It's not my job to have a constructive dialogue, Scott. Sorry.

and .. .

Q Scott, how long has the President known that Karl Rove spoke in 2003 to at least one reporter about Joseph Wilson's wife?

MR. McCLELLAN: That's a question relating to the investigation. You've had my response on those questions.

Q Was it like a big surprise to him this week and when the story broke about it?

MR. McCLELLAN: Again, it's an ongoing, continuing investigation, and I think I've addressed why I'm not going to get into discussing it further at this time.

[sojourner]

59. look at that! could this really be first sign of MSM developing spine?

well yesterday was the first sign...maybe this is an indication of its truly becoming a part of their anatomy!

[KansDem]

64. Wait one more day. That'll make it three days in a row...

If the White House press corps is asking these kind of questions tomorrow, then I might tend to believe they are "developing a spine." ...might...

But when there are still "reporters" who ask this from yesterday:

Scott, today also the President spoke about the war on terrorism and also, according to -- report, there was bombings in London and also bombings in India, and at both places, al Qaeda was involved. According to the India report and press reports, a Pakistani television said that Osama bin Laden is there alive and they have spoken with him, and his group is still -- as far as terrorism around the globe is concerned. So now the major bombings after 9/11 took place in London, and more are about to come, according to al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden. They are still -- and again, the President is doing a great job as far as fighting against terrorism is concerned. But where do we stand now, really? Where do we go from London, as far as terrorism is concerned? How far we can go after Osama bin Laden now to catch him? Because he's still in Pakistan.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/07/20050711-3.html

Then I still wonder.

[RaRa]

66. Blech! Who the Fu** asked that? n/t

[KansDem]

68. I don't know...someone named "Goyal"

:shrug:

[sojourner]

67. In THIS administration there will ALWAYS be someone on payroll

to ask that kind of question! Like you, I am cautious in my hopefulness, however.

[aquart]

60. "Directing a response..."

For them, that's brutal.

Now is the time to buy stock in Maalox and Tumms.

[JNelson6563]

62. I'd say some should buy "Depends"

if I thought they knew not to wear them on the outside of their pants. Morans. I predict some seriously "Oh shit!" moments for Team Bush. It's high time too.

:toast:

Julie

[wallwriter]

61. Scottie want a cracker! *SQUAWK*

Related to an ongoing investigation. *SQUAWK*

[lovuian]

63. Scott can't tell what is right or wrong!!!

and the talking points was just obvious showing the News media is told to write!!!

[donco6]

65. An excellent question, really.

It goes to character as well as illegality. "What type of person is Mr. Rove, Scott? Is he the type of person who lies to get his way? Is he the type to destroy other people to accomplish his own ends?"

Anyone who's seen "Bush's Brain" would know the answer to that.

[dhinojosa]

69. Recommending for deliciousness. nt

[goforit]

70. That David, is quick off his feet.!! (no room for Scott to move!!)

Hats off to clarity David!!!

:bounce:

[steely]

71. I wonder who David is,

and if he gets to keep his credentials for long?
Is he a reporter of note?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

72. He's the Chief White House Correspondent for NBC.

So, yes, that is of note.

[steely]

75. Indeed -

Thanks

[dweller]

76. David Gregory, i think.

:shrug:


dp

[R Hickey]

89. I thought it was David Korn.

or Corn.

[robertpaulsen]

73. Kick and recommend!

:kick:

[punpirate]

74. I doubt that McClellan could answer a question honestly...

... if he were about to be skewered and barbecued.

What worries me a bit about this sudden interest by the press with Rove is that the questions seem to be making assumptions of guilt before there's even been indictments.

If he's actually indicted, will he then plead that he can't get a fair trial because of pre-trial publicity?

If he's not indicted, will the White House then use this to further cow the press--that they "hounded" Rove and that they'll pay for it?

I wonder.

[Maddy McCall]

78. Is this from today's press briefing?

I missed it. Thanks for the link.

[Hissyspit]

79. AP: White House Says President Has Confidence In Rove

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGB4XBA53BE.html

White House Says President Has Confidence in Rove
By Pete Yost
Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - Amid calls for Karl Rove's dismissal, President Bush is standing by his top political adviser, whose role in the leak of a CIA officer's identity has plunged the White House into controversy.
The defense follows the disclosure that Rove talked about the officer in a July 11, 2003, conversation with Time magazine reporter Matthew Cooper.

The president ignored a question Tuesday about whether he would fire Rove, and White House spokesman Scott McClellan said later that "any individual who works here at the White House has the confidence of the president." McClellan said that includes Rove.

Rove's lawyer, Robert Luskin, said Rove did not disclose Valerie Plame's name, a point that Sen. Joe Biden, D-Del., called a distinction without a difference.

"The fact that he didn't give her name, but identified the ambassador's wife ... doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who that is," Biden said on CNN's "Inside Politics." "If that occurred, at a minimum, that was incredibly bad judgment, warranting him being asked to leave."

MORE

[fortyfeetunder]

80. Loyalty before justice?

Bush is going uphill on this one citing confidence for Rove. That is loyalty to a fault.

Bush is just asking to be forced to abandon his friendship with Rove and fire his butt as he had promised to do in such cases....

[deacon]

81. He is choosing Rove above a matter of national security n/t

[longship]

82. Nixon's similar proclamations

The Nixon WH was proclaiming his faith and loyalty to his staff when the entire country was calling for resignations. In the end the spin machine could no longer keep things from collapsing. Nixon had to let Haldeman and Erlichman go. They were indicted and both did the frogmarch into prison. If anything, those two were as powerful or more so than Rove. Convicted felons, both of them.

[Hissyspit]

83. And their resignations were followed by Nixon's... n/t

[WCGreen]

84. Freddo has just been kissed.....

[zapp]

85. He has confidence in Rumsfeld too.

This means simply that not only is he inept as a President, he's a bad HR person too.

[radfringe]

86. a more truthful headline would be

Rove Says President Has Confidence In Rove

[Spinzonner]

87. Well, that does explain why Shrub hasn't figured it out yet