France Backs School Ban on Islamic Veils

[DeathvadeR]

Saturday October 11, 2003 11:16 PM

PARIS (AP) - The government and its main opposition joined Saturday in supporting school officials who expelled two sisters for refusing to remove traditional Islamic headscarves in class.

Administrators at the girls' high school, in Aubervilliers outside Paris, said the headscarves were ostentatious symbols of religion.

Lila Levy, 16, and her sister Alma, 18, were expelled Friday for violating regulations aimed at keeping public schools secular.

<http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-3253130,00.html>

[IranianDemocrat]

1. Good: Hijab is a symbol of backwardness, opression, and sexism.

.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

2. I might add that French public schools

ban the use of all religious symbols by teachers or students, so crosses and stars of David are equally taboo.

[Wolvie]

3. ........

well it is the french you know

[PartyPooper]

18. Welcome to DU, Wolvie!

I'm a bit torn on this one. Wasn't there a recent case (in Florida) where an Islamic woman didn't want her photo taken for her driver's license...without the veil? And, didn't the courts rule against her?

I'm all for secular and / or religious education per se...and full rights and privacy accorded to each individual, etc., but, if there is a law...there is a law. This particular law seems reasonable to me. But, I don't believe anyone should be persecuted for a deeply steeped religious belief and custom .

I hope that some acceptable compromise can be achieved.

O8)

[Paschall]

25. There is no persecution

These girls have the right to wear their headscarves and practice their religion freely outside the classroom.

What may be unclear here is that these (highly mediatized) cases are part of a push by Muslim fundamentalists to modify the French educational program. These girls claim their religion bars them from wearing appropriate sports gear, so they are effectively seeking to exclude themselves from physical education. Other religious tenets are used by these fundamentalists to excuse these girls from science classes.

Ya think a rule requiring these girls to study human reproduction is "religious persecution"?

[PsychoDad]

28. That case involved a veil across the face.

As far as I know It is OK to wear the Hijab,(The head cover) for a driver's license in all states.. as long as the ace is not covered.
The same rule applies in many Islamic countries

[chapter32]

7. Compare that with the U.S.

n/t

[WindRavenX]

5. That may be, but the students have a right to wear them

IMO, even though most of us see the scarf as a symbol of oppression, I believe students should have the right to wear them.

[chapter32]

8. No, the students don't have the "right"...

The students must follow the rules (secular rules in this case, all treated equally). The idea the students can do whatever they please is bizarre.

[WindRavenX]

9. I think the rules in this case are a bit harsh, IMO

Religious symbols should be allowed to be worn. Although it's good that in this case all symbols are not allowed, I think it's a bit harsh.

[chapter32]

11. One might call it “harsh”, but,

as you have indicated, it’s a good idea.

[BonjourUSA]

12. NO!!!!! It is not "HARSH"!!!

99,99 % of the French teachers and students ask for this rule. It's their guarantee of freedom !!

[chapter32]

14. You are replying to my post…

as though I’m saying it’s harsh. It seems you didn’t understand my post. I’m not saying it’s harsh – WindRavenX says it’s harsh. I agree with your point of view.

[BonjourUSA]

15. I know, I just made a mistake

;-)

[chapter32]

16. By the way...

I like your signature line:

"if I want to defend the democracy I must defend the free expression of my enemies."

Viva France.

[Paschall]

26. To elaborate on BonjourUSA's point

I think BonjourUSA means a guarantee of freedom from bias and favoritism.

From the founding of secular education in the French Republic, students were required to wear smocks; this practice continued in primary and elementary schools into the 1960s. You've all seen engravings or photographs of smock-clad students. The purpose was not to protect a student's clothes, but to hide them... to hide the student's social origins (wealth or poverty), to ensure fuller equality and combat favoritism and class privilege.

[PsychoDad]

29. In the USA that would be true.

That freedom is protected by federal law.
But the case is in France, and French laws do not provide the same right.

[pansypoo53219]

4. come

enjoy the ... 18th century.

[BonjourUSA]

6. 18th century ??

All the other girls in the school asked to expel this two sisters. They want to be free !!

If we authorize the veil inside the school their father and perhaps their brothers will say : "Now in the French schools you can wear veil, wear it !"

Simply, we observe the calmest and best schools are the ones where the strict banishment of all religious signs is respected

[PsychoDad]

17. They want freedom ?

2 girls wearing a piece of cloth on their heads...Is going to enslave a school, crumble the foundations of the french educational system and topple the mighty government of france?

If this is true, then surley france sucks as much as the freepers insist.

Just more stste sponsored Islamophobia

Secular oppression is as bad as religious oppression.

[chapter32]

20. "Secular oppression" is a contradiction in terms,

"religious oppression" is not.

[Paschall]

27. "Topple the mighty government of France..."

Well, tell me, just how far can you sweep aside a nation's founding principles before the nation is indeed threatened?

Can you say: "first amendment zones," "no fly lists," "unlimited detention of person's of interest," "enemy combatants"?

Though I am no fan of Chirac's, he has to be applauded for naming the first Muslim woman to the French Cabinet. So, as to your charge of "state-sponsored Islamophobia," perhaps you should take the question up with Ms. Tokia Saïfi, French Secretary of State for Sustainable Development.



Tell me again, how many Muslims sit on Dubya's Cabinet?

[PsychoDad]

30. So...

Banning of religious wear is a french founding principle ?
I was unaware of that. My bad.

And I see now from other posts that it is not only Islam but all religions that are targeted. So I shall revoke my claim of Islamophobia... Along with my claim of Shenanagans. :silly:

But I am still of the opinion that the banning of religious expression is as bad as the forcing of it. That the expression of our faith is a subtile human right, sometimes a need. That as long as the symbol and object of your faith is not forced upon me or another, then it should be your right to wear it.. And wear it proudly. Weither it's a Hijab, A Star of David,A norse rune, An Indian swastika, A cross or a pentagram.

And Yes, we have our own problems here. Problems we must correct as soon as possible! Problems that cannot wait until 2004

"Tell me again, how many Muslims sit on Dubya's Cabinet?"
Not as many as there should be :silly:

[Paschall]

32. You're arguing in bad faith

No pun intended.

Obviously, the banning of religious wear is not a founding principle of the French Republic, but secular government is. The enforced secularity of public education (and the French civil service) is part of that principle, and always has been... at least since 1905, when French law officially established the separation of church and state. The 1905 law was specifically supported by liberal Protestants and Jews, groups which had both been persecuted by the Catholic Church.

[PsychoDad]

31. ...

[chapter32]

10. No sign of the religion in school

is fine with me. Keep the religion in private homes, away from the schools. Send the children to the “religious” schools even though I’m for outlawing them as well.

[LittleApple81]

13. Agree n/t

[JCMach1]

23. You think they will ban kids with religious medals or

crucifixes...

I smell a rat...

[Paschall]

24. If kids refuse to obey the law...

...and remove religious medals, yes, they will be banned. Most Catholic fundamentalists, however, don't bother challenging the law--they simply enroll in Catholic schools where medals and crucifixes are allowed.

By the way, this law also applies to all French civil servants and public employees. If you work in the French postal system, for example, you are also prohibited from "religious displays" on the job: no Stars of David, no crosses, no headscarves.

[Mr Wright]

19. No Religion

I think its good that the French government has sided with school officials. Their should never be any sign of religion in schools. This is as disruptive to education as a teacher wearing a cross, or posting the Ten Commandments.

[cap]

21. ban has its basis in

French history. There was a time that they thought the Catholic church had too much power so they banned religious items in schools. The ban was originally trying to limit the influence of Catholicism. Think about it -- if they allow hijab, they have to allow Catholic stuff.

[Paschall]

22. It weren't just a "thought"

There was a time that they thought the Catholic church had too much power...

Where do you think the "divine" came from in the divine rights of French monarchs?