Lives of Three Men Offer Little to Explain Attacks (NY Times)

[stickdog]

The NY Times with the understatement of the year ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/14/international/europe/14leeds.html?oref=login&pagewanted=print

...

As the identities of these suicide bombing suspects slowly emerged Wednesday behind a thicket of disbelief, the question that nobody in these neighborhoods could answer was this: What kind of radical force threw the three men together, with another bomber, to commit such a heinous crime against their country, the one they rooted for in soccer matches, and their people?

...

A few miles away, in Dewsbury, a more kempt suburb of Leeds, Mr. Khan, 30, the man suspected of blowing up the bomb at the Edgware Road subway station, moved recently into a small terrace house with his wife and daughter. By day, Mr. Khan, who was born in Pakistan but reared in Leeds, worked with disabled students at a center or a school, neighbors said. He was not particularly devout, and few neighbors said they could remember seeing him at the mosque. In fact, neighbors said he married without even telling his family. His parents found out after the fact, they told reporters. His mother-in-law, Farida Patel, is a teacher and a prominent community worker whose father campaigned against apartheid in South Africa, a local official, Khizar Iqbal, said.

...

Mr. Tanweer lived in a large house and drove his father's red Mercedes on occasion. He wore brand-name clothes, worked out at a gym and took classes in the martial arts. He studied sports science at Leeds Metropolitan University, and when he could, he worked at his father's fish and chips shop for extra money.

Everyone who knew him described him as infinitely likable. Terrorism seemed the farthest thing from his mind, his friends said. "He was a good lad, so down-to-earth," said a friend who played cricket with him the day before the bombing. Although the neighborhood is poor, people of South Asian origin own most of the businesses. There is a sense, at least among these families, that they were moving up the ladder, rather than down it.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/07/14/MNGR7DNPP41.DTL

'ORDINARY BRITISH LADS'

TERROR IN LONDON: Three of the four suspected suicide bombers in last week's deadly attacks had no police records or pasts that would arouse suspicion or alert anti-terror squads

Zachary Coile, Chronicle Staff Writer

Leeds, England -- One was a skilled cricket player who gave up drinking and women to lead a more devout life. Another was the son of a local businessman who ran a fish and chips shop. One was a counselor who worked with disabled children. To their friends and relatives, the men identified by British police as the suicide bombers in last week's attacks on London's transit system were "ordinary British lads" who fit in seamlessly in this multiethnic former textile mill town.

...

Shahzad Tanweer, 22, had studied sports science at a local university, learned tai kwon do and judo. The eldest son of Mohammed Mumtaz, owner of the popular South Leeds Fishery fish and chips shop, Tanweer had recently returned from a trip to Pakistan. "I've known him for years; we used to go boxing together," said Jaz Singh, a friend of Tanweer. "He was very bright and loved sports -- football, cricket. It's completely out of character for him. Someone must have brainwashed him and made him do it."

Outside the brick home of another identified bomber, 19-year-old Hasib Hussain, police were assembling scaffolding in the front yard to aid in the forensic search. A cricket fanatic, Hussain had played in a match just few days before last Thursday's attacks.

Thirty-year-old Mohammed Sidique Khan worked as a counselor in a youth center, where he worked with the disabled. He was born in Pakistan but grew up in Leeds. He and his wife have an 8-month-old daughter and recently moved to a new home in nearby Dewsbury. Documents belonging to Khan were found in the debris of the Edgware Road subway blast, police said.

Many of the alleged bombers' teenage and 20-something friends on Beeston Hill were convinced that police had wrongly blamed the local men. Some said they believed their friends had been passengers aboard the trains and buses when the attacks took place. Others theorized that the government had trumped up evidence to try to pin the attacks on Muslims.


http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2005/07/14/bombing_suspects_identities_shock_leeds/

Bombing suspects' identities shock Leeds
Acquaintances say they saw no signs

By Kevin Cullen, Globe Staff | July 14, 2005

LEEDS, England -- Shehzad Tanweer, the 22-year-old son of Pakistani immigrants, appeared to be the epitome of assimilation into British society, an ambitious college graduate with a degree in sports science who excelled at cricket and just about any other sport he tried.

...

Tanweer was hardly among Britain's poor, disaffected youth. His father, Mohammed, arrived here from Pakistan 30 years ago without a penny to his name, and went on to become a man of some prestige and considerable property. He owns a small but lucrative fish-and-chips shop on the main street of Beeston, a neighborhood that is home to many of the sizable Muslim population. He also has a butcher shop and a curry take-out business. His white semidetached house on Colwyn Road is bigger and better maintained than most homes in the area.

Residents of Leeds say that Khan, the oldest of the three known suspects, was a primary school teacher in the city, and that he taught martial arts at a community drop-in center, where Tanweer and Hussain were among his students. They said Khan was the only one of the three Leeds suspects who was born in Pakistan. Khan and his wife had a daughter last December. ''You wouldn't think a man with a little baby would blow himself up, would you?" Shabaz asked.

....

About 12 hours after police say Hussain blew up a double-decker bus, killing himself and 12 other passengers, his mother, Maniza, called the police, saying Hussain was missing and that she feared he had been a victim of the bombing. She said he had traveled down to London that day with his friends. She later gave police a photograph of him, and on Monday night, when detectives combing through some 2,500 different pieces of closed-circuit camera film came across an image of Hussain standing in the middle of King's Cross station with three other young men of Pakistani descent, each of them holding backpacks, police had their big break. The next day, antiterrorism police burst into the homes of the Hussains, the Tanweers, and four other families in Leeds.

[stickdog]

1. Working-class neighborhood obscured terrorist laboratory

http://www.sitnews.us/0705news/071305/071305_shns_terrorsuspects.html

Working-class neighborhood obscured terrorist laboratory
By DOUG SAUNDERS
Toronto Globe and Mail

July 13, 2005
Wednesday

Shahzad Tanweer lived in the relatively prosperous Beeston neighborhood of Leeds, home to many merchants from the Indian subcontinent. He was known to his friends as a fanatical cricket player, and for driving his father's Mercedes around the local streets. On the Wednesday night before the attacks, his friends told reporters this week, he played cricket late into the night. He was also known for his devotion to jujitsu - not surprising, as he had studied sports science at Leeds University.

But because he did not wear traditional clothing or pray in public, many of his friends were not aware that he regularly attended the local mosque, which most people here consider moderate. His father, Mohammed Mumtaz, was born in Pakistan but spent most of his life in England.

Shahzad Tanweer was a close friend of Hasib Hussain, 18, who lived in a seedy suburban neighborhood nearby, in a $180,000 semi-detached house owned by his parents. His parents were born in Pakistan, but he was English born and bred. As a teenager, Hasib "went off the rails," neighbors said, getting into trouble with truancy and minor crime. They were relieved when he suddenly became devoutly religious two years ago.

A more mature, mysterious figure is Mohammed Sadique Khan, 30, who is married to a former city-council employee, has a young child and lives in Dewsbury, about an hour outside of Leeds. He met his wife while the two were studying at the university in Leeds. They were known in the Pakistani community for being less traditional in dress and custom than some of their peers.

[stickdog]

2. GO, GO, GO, GO! POLICE STORM HOMES

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=15730191&method=full&siteid=94762&headline=go--go--go--go--police-storm-homes-name_page.html

GO, GO, GO, GO! POLICE STORM HOMES
Police storm the homes of suicide bomb suspects
By Paul Byrne And Jeremy Armstrong

...

A second Beeston property raided was 51 Colywn Road, home to the Tanweers. Shehzad, who has a sports science degree, lived there with his family, headed by Pakistan-born businessman Mumtaz. He owns a fish and chip shop and is a former community policeman. Dad-of-four Mumtaz, 56, bought the next door semi, No49, 10 years ago and knocked the two together. Mumtaz's P reg silver Mercedes was cordoned off in the drive and Shehzad's red Mercedes saloon was parked in the street behind.

...

The fourth Leeds raid at 11.30am was in the Hyde Park Road area of Burley, where up to 600 people were evacuated to a leisure centre. Nearly two hours later soldiers blew open the front door of a house. Insp Miles Himsworth said armed officers were used in the raid, but the property was empty. He said: "We are searching the premises for explosives and bits and pieces such as computers. It will be a very slow and very meticulous search so any evidence that is there can be gathered carefully."

In Thornhill Park Avenue, Dewsbury, the home of a retired school teacher - which had been kept under surveillance for the past three days - was raided. Officers wearing white overalls sealed off the neat bungalow of widow Farida Patel. She lives with her son Arshad, 28, his wife Khadija, and their baby. Indian-born Mrs Patel was a language teacher at the nearby Birkdale High School. Dewsbury councillor Khizar Iqbal said: "She was invited to Buckingham Palace a few years ago to receive an award for her community work."

The second Dewsbury swoop - sixth in all - was at Lees Holm, where Mrs Patel's married grown-up daughter Hasina is believed to have lived with her husband. Mother-of-one Hasina was a neighbourhood enrichment officer, working with schoolchildren, before having a baby girl a few months ago. It is believed she reported her husband missing to police last week.

[stickdog]

3. Bombers: Their backgrounds

http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=62592&pt=n

As more information came to light about the four suspected suicide bombers involved in last week's terror attacks, profiles of seemingly respectable, ordinary people emerged.

SHEHZAD TANWEER: A keen cricketer and the son of a well respected fish and chip shop owner is not the stereotypical image of a suspected terrorist. Described as a good Muslim and the eldest of four children, 22-year-old Tanweer was said to be "proud to be British" and with everything to live for. Born on December 15, 1982 in Bradford, he had always lived in the Beeston area of Leeds. Tanweer lived with his parents, his younger brother and two sisters in a semi-detached white pebbledash house. Having studied sports science at Leeds Metropolitan University he planned to get involved in sport. He particularly loved cricket, and his friend Mohammed Answar, 19, said they played the sport together only last week.

HASIB MIR HUSSAIN: When the 18-year-old went missing, his mother did what any concerned parent would do - she reported his disappearance to the police. It was this action that gave investigators the vital clue that led them to Leeds and the various properties which were raided yesterday. Hussain - described by one neighbour as a "dopey dork" - was reported missing by his mother at 10.20pm on Thursday after failing to return home from London.

MOHAMMAD SIDIQUE KHAN: As a learning mentor in primary schools, he helped immigrant children settle into education when they arrived in Britain. The friendly assistant, who acted as first day "buddy" to youngsters at the Hillside Primary School, in Beeston, Leeds, is seen smiling in a photographs taken at the school in 2002. The eldest of the suspects to be named, the 30-year-old lived in Lees Holm, Dewsbury, West Yorkshire, with his wife Hasina and their 14-month daughter. According to other neighbours in the quiet Dewsbury cul-de-sac, Khan`s family came from Pakistan, whereas his wife`s family had origins in India. Khan`s wife is thought to be involved in education and locals have suggested she was pregnant with their second child.

[allemand]

15. Some quotes you intentionally left out:

SHEHZAD TANWEER: (...)

Tanweer went to Lahore in Pakistan for two months earlier this year to study religion, but his uncle denied earlier reports that his nephew travelled to Afghanistan and took part in training camps.

HASIB MIR HUSSAIN: (...)

Hussain reportedly became very religious two years ago.

MOHAMMAD SIDIQUE KHAN: (...)

Neighbours said Khan originally lived in Leeds, having moved to the council-owned property from the Beeston area, where he is thought to have run an Islamic bookshop.

http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=62592&pt=n

The last quote appears in the paragraph about "MOHAMMAD SIDIQUE KHAN" right before the last sentence: "According to other neighbours..."

You simply left it out without even indicating that you left something out !

[1932]

20. Nice catch.

Also, wouldn't it be incrediible if this three people knew each other and all died in four different explosions very far from Leeds???

[stickdog]

27. Because it's almost all COMPLETE bullshit.

These guys were about as Muslim as Howard Dean's wife is Christian.

Read all the articles in full and then ask yourself:

1) Who exactly "reported" that Hussain became very religious two years ago? Can you cite ONE source who gave a name and said those words for the record? And compared to "what" did Hussain supposedly find Allah? Compared to being a 15-year-old juvey delinquent?

2) Considering all the sourced quotes that I can gather, it appears Tanweer traveled to Pakistan EXACTLY once. He was supposed to stay for to a year, but he came back within three months because he missed his friends, Britain, cricket and soccer too much. Please name ONE person who actually knew the kid who claimed otherwise.

3) Finally read this sentence again:

Neighbours said Khan originally lived in Leeds, having moved to the council-owned property from the Beeston area, where he is thought to have run an Islamic bookshop.

Now, please tell me which neighbors said ANY of these things, and who the FUCK passively (You know, the verb without a subject, right?) Plus No Denver or Detriot, plesease!

Kan was a university educated community service enthusiast who taught disabled and underprivileged kids for well over five years

* a Pakistani took a highly liberated Indian school teacher as his wife and had an 18 month old baby girl and was adored by every single one of his former students and employers -- who the FUCK reported that he once "ran" an "Islamic" bookshop? Amd what the fuck is that supposed to mean? Is taking a lowly job in a shop that sells a variety of books now a new form of thoughtcrime? I mean, if there's more to this story, by all means, let's hear it.

But, until we do, please consider how you'd feel if dozens of major newspapers in your state smeared your recently dreaded loved one with charges of mass murder, by "reporting" the he or she "was thought" to work in a story that sold books with Bibical theme.

Wow, please tell me which neighbors said ANY of these things, and who the FUCK passively decided

[stickdog]

39. Whoops. Let the above post stand as a clear warning against PWI.

or PUI, depending on your state laws.

:silly:

[stickdog]

4. School's shock at Dewsbury bomber

http://ichuddersfield.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100localnews/tm_objectid=15735848&method=full&siteid=50060&headline=school-s-shock-at-dewsbury-bomber-name_page.html

School's shock at Dewsbury bomber

Jul 14 2005

By Neil Atkinson, The Huddersfield Daily Examiner

A SUICIDE bomber from Thornhill Lees was a much-loved worker at a primary school. And today, the school headteacher spoke of her shock after discovering she used to work with Mohammed Sidique Khan - one of the London bombers. Sarah Balfour, head of Hillside Primary School in Beeston, Leeds, said staff and pupils were "devastated" to discover that the learning mentor was one of the bombers.

She said: "Sidique Khan was a member of staff at Hillside Primary School and he was employed here between March, 2001, and December, 2004, as a learning mentor. He was great with the children and they all loved him. He did so much for them, helping and supporting them and running extra clubs and activities. Sidique was a real asset to the school and always showed 100% commitment. We are extremely shocked and find it hard to understand. He was 100% committed to the school and the children and he worked extremely hard with everyone here."

...

(Khan's) mother-in-law, Farida Patel, lives with her son Arshad in nearby Thornhill Park Avenue, in a house which was also raided by police. She is said to be a highly respected volunteer worker who was once invited to Buckingham Palace. Khan's wife is thought to be involved in education and locals have suggested she was pregnant with their second child. She was last seen on Tuesday morning leaving the house with police. Her husband had not been seen since last week. Neighbour Imran Zaman, described Khan as a "quiet person". He added: "I never knew he had a religious background. I go to the local mosque and have never seen him there."

A neighbour of (Khan's wife), who declined to be named, said Mrs Patel was not very religious. "She's not religious and keeps away from the Muslim community and that's why she chooses to live where she lives. She was the type of woman who if someone said `Women should stay at home', she would get very upset."

[stickdog]

5. Killer in the Classroom

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1693463,00.html

http://images.thetimes.co.uk/TGD/picture/0,,213600,00.jpg

Mohammad Sidique Khan, 30, working as a teaching mentor in a classroom at a school in the Beeston area of Leeds

Killer in the classroom

By Daniel McGrory, Michael Evans and Dominic Kennedy

POLICE believe that they have identified the British-born man who masterminded the suicide bomb attacks on London. It also emerged yesterday that one of his recruits was a primary school teaching assistant.

The leader of the terrorist cell is believed to be in his thirties and of Pakistani origin. He arrived at a British port last month and is understood to have left the country the day before four suicide bombers murdered at least 52 people. Security sources believe that he has been involved in previous terrorist operations and has links with al-Qaeda followers in the United States. It is also believed that he visited the bombers in Leeds and identified targets on the Tube.

...

Credit cards were discovered with the bombers’ bodies, and checks on financial dealings over recent months could provide vital information. One security source said: “We are checking if anyone was seen with any of this circle in the weeks up to July 7. The men who orchestrated this attack, obtained the explosive and assembled the devices would have been well away from Leeds and London by the time the bombs exploded.”

...

Khan, the father of a 14-month-old daughter, was a “learning mentor” for children of immigrant families who had just arrived in Britain. Staff described him as gently spoken, endlessly patient, and immensely popular with children who called him their buddy.

[stickdog]

6. Gujarati connection to one bomber

http://www.gg2.net/viewnews.asp?nid=1188&tid=top_stories&catid=Top%20Stories

Gujarati connection to one bomber
GG2.NET NEWS <14/07/2005>

News : United: London at 12pm today
United: London at 12pm today

ONE OF THE suspected bombers was married to a woman of Gujarati origin and her mother is a well-known community figure. The bomber’s mother-in-law Farida Patel was invited to a Buckingham Palace tea party attended by the Queen, it has emerged. She is a highly respected bilingual teacher and went to Buckingham Palace after winning an award for her professionalism. Her daughter Hasina Patel met Mohammad Sadique Khan at university in Leeds. Khan, 30, grew up in the Beeston area of Leeds where two of the other suspects involved in Thursday’s attacks came from.

Khan appears to have moved out of Beeston to Dewsbury where he shared a home with his wife and their young child. Khan was regarded as something of a society role model. He appeared well integrated, thoughtful, kind and considerate. His marriage to Hasina is said to have caused something of a stir. They are reported to have dated at university before marrying. Neighbours told the media: “They seemed like a really happy family. Hasina was from an Indian family and there are not often mixed Pakistani and Indian marriages but they didn’t mind.”

The neighbour went onto say that the family were devout, quiet and respectable. Hasina is understood to be pregnant with a second child but both her and her mother have not been seen since the revelations.

...

The third bomber, Shehzad Tanweer, is understood to have used the same youth centre in Beeston as Khan and Hussain. He too travelled to Pakistan and it is said become far more religious following his trip there. A popular and intelligent pupil, Tanweer idolised Mike Tyson and was well liked by fellow pupils and teachers at his school in Leeds. One ex-classmate said: “He was so English in his beliefs and very westernised. We knew he had his religious beliefs and that he read the Qur’an. But there was no way you could accuse him of being an extremist. Tanweer went to Pakistan to study the Qur’an late last year but returned after just two months, saying he did not like it. It is said that on his return he was far more active in his worship but to his family and friends very little had changed."

[stickdog]

7. Fourth bomber is a schizophrenic Elvis Presley fan!

http://www.leedstoday.net/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=39&ArticleID=1085108

Schizophrenic Elvis Presley fan Ejaz Fiaz is now understood to have been the fourth man to take part in the terrorist attack on the capital. Originally from Beeston in Leeds, Fiaz is thought to have moved initially to Leicester and then to Luton with his wife and two children two years ago. He was described as a regular guy who enjoyed a drink and did not hold particularly strong religious views before the past couple of years. It is understood he was diagnosed with a form of schizophrenia shortly before moving away from Leeds.

...


BY ANY outward standards, Mohammed Sadique Khan, 30, had everything to live for and no reason to become a martyr for a fanatical cause.
He had a young wife, Hasina, 28, an eight month old baby and a job as a supply special needs teaching assistant at Hillside Primary School in Beeston, Leeds. He worked at other schools in the Dewsbury area and was well thought of by parents and other staff. Hasina gave up her job as a community enrichment officer working alongside other special needs teachers 18 months ago after the birth of their first child.

Born in Leeds to Tika and Mamida Khan, he attended a local school before going on to Dewsbury College where it is believed he did a Child Studies course and met his wife to be. They married a couple of years ago and their daughter, Maryam, was born at Dewsbury District Hospital on May 19 last year. The marriage was not arranged and it is claimed that his wife's family did not totally approve of the match as he was not apparently as traditional a Muslim as other young men.

...

Shehzad Tanweer

The 22-year-old sports science student, who lived with his parents in Colwyn Road, Beeston, Leeds, appears to have kept his fanatical beliefs from relatives and local friends. As a pupil at Wortley High School, his hero was heavyweight boxer Mike Tyson and he enjoyed boxing and American wrestling. Later a keen cricketer, he was also a member of his school's football team and excelled at athletics. Fellow pupils remember him as a polite and kind classmate who achieved top grades. Late last year, Shehzad visited Pakistan. He had planned to spend a year in Lahore studying the Koran and Arabic, but returned home within three months, telling his family he had not enjoyed his time with the people.

[OKthatsIT]

22. Sounds like intel manipulation and mind control

remember Sirhan Sirhan?

[Cerridwen]

8. I've not been watching ever detail of the investigation...

Is there any possibility these men did not do this?

Please don't flame away...I'm just wondering.

[stickdog]

10. Anything's possible, AFAIAC.

http://www.eitb24.com/noticia_en.php?id=75730

London bomber was teaching assistant. Parents: "A really nice guy"

Thirty-year-old Mohammad Sidique Khan worked at Hillside Primary School, teaching children who had special learning needs.
Parents at a primary school in northern England expressed their shock and horror on Thursday that one of the bombing suspects in last week's terror attacks in London worked as a teaching assistant at the school.

Thirty-year-old Mohammad Sidique Khan worked at Hillside Primary School in Leeds, about 185 miles (270 kilometers) from London, teaching children who had special learning needs. Leeds is home to a large Muslim community.

Mother Sharon Stevens said she was shocked by the news and said Khan was "a really nice guy." She said: "It can't be Mr Khan, somebody has got it wrong somewhere. I just feel that something has gone totally wrong for that guy to be involved, because he was a really nice guy."

[stickdog]

9. "What we considered normal has changed forever."

Do tell!

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=652324

Police raids at six homes in north Yorkshire yesterday also led to one arrest. But senior security sources warned last night that they suspected al-Qa'ida planners ­ bomb-makers and organisers ­ were still at large and further suicide bombings were likely. The four men, including one teenager, all from Leeds and Dewsbury in West Yorkshire, were not considered Islamic extremists and were not thought to have significant links with terrorism.

The realisation that British nationals are prepared to make suicide attacks has transformed the way the country will have to view security. "What we considered normal has changed forever," said a senior security source.

Security measures at all public places will have to be rethought. Tough new security laws are also expected to be introduced to try to combat the threat.

Only one of the three identified suicide bombers had any known connection to al-Qa'ida suspects, and it was a very low level of association, according to security sources.

[Mizmoon]

11. Does this make anyone re-think the "Lackawanna Six" case?

I know I'm seeing it in a different light ... like maybe those guys were not so harmless after all.

[stickdog]

13. Has anyone even gone on the record as saying that any of these four

guys -- other than the two young Leeds neighbors -- even so much as KNEW on another?

Because I haven't read a SINGLE sourced quote from ANYONE that even SUGGESTS as much.

[Andrushka]

14. That's a very good point

/eom

[Tom Bombadil]

16. Your source in post 6 suggests that the three

Leeds residents attended the same youth centre. If true, then strong chance they knew wach other.

[stickdog]

28. Tell us, please, just WHO it was who SUGGESTED that?

Ah, the power of suggestion ...

[allemand]

45. A friend of Tanweer and Hussain.

Tanweer and Hussain looked up to Khan as a "father figure" according to one friend, and regularly played football with him as part of the youth project.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1529021,00.html

[stickdog]

59. And who was this supposed "friend" and who told him about

Khan's supposed close relationship with his supposed friends Tanweer and Hussain -- considering that, according to him, it certainly wasn't Tanweer or Hussain?

[stickdog]

12. Trophy-rich athlete who turned to jihad

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1528124,00.html



Aldgate, 8.50am: Explosion in third carriage of train bound for Liverpool Street - 7 confirmed dead

Sandra Laville and Dilpazier Aslam
Thursday July 14, 2005
The Guardian

In his bedroom at the terrace house he shared with his Pakistani parents and three siblings, Shehzad Tanweer proudly displayed the trophies he won at school for athletics. But by his early 20s the British-born Muslim had developed a passion for something else - Islamist extremism.

In the months before he travelled to London to blow himself up on the underground train to Liverpool Street, Tanweer, 22, visited Pakistan to study the Qur'an and Arabic. The rigour of the intensive study seems to have been too tough, however. "He came home after three months because he didn't like the people there," his uncle, Bashir Ahmed, 64, said.

...

Mr Ahmed said the family were devastated by what Shehzad had done. "We are shattered. We are a very close family. We have lived around here for ages. We have lost everything, especially the respect we had in this community.

"He was proud to be British. He had everything to live for. His parents were loving and supportive. They had no financial worries. He was intelligent. He went to university. His plan was to go into sports. The family is shattered. This is a terrible thing. It wasn't him. It must have been forces behind him."

[allemand]

17. About Nadim Fiaz, the fourth bomber:

A house in the Beeston area of Leeds where his family used to live was cloaked from view yesterday by a blue tarpaulin behind which police were conducting a search.

Neighbours said that the house, which has been empty for several years since Fiaz's parents separated, was a scene of regular, late-night "comings and goings".

"Young men would turn up at the house at 2am and 3 am and hold meetings that would last for hours," a neighbour said. "These meetings have been going on for a long time. Sometimes there would be five or six people, sometimes there would be ten of them." Detectives are trying to establish who may have attended the meetings and if they were part of the terrorist cell that planned the London bombings which killed 52 people.
http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=310541

[Tom Bombadil]

18. The Times was reporting that the

fourth bomber was Jamaican born and from Aylesbury. Lindsey ....?

[allemand]

19. Strange. The Outlook India article also quotes "The Times".

Here is the Times article about Lindsey Germaine:

Fourth bomber named as Jamaican-born Briton
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1693797,00.html

Nadim Fiaz is the fourth bomber: The Times
http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=310541

The BBC also says that the fourth bomber was Lindsey Germaine:

LINDSEY GERMAINE, FROM AYLESBURY, BUCKINGHAMSHIRE
Police sources have said the fourth suicide bomber was a Jamaican-born British resident named Lindsey Germaine.

He is understood to have been living at a house in Northern Road, Aylesbury that police raided on Wednesday night.

Little is known of his background and sources say confirmation of his identity may depend on DNA analysis.

He is thought to be responsible for the Russell Square Underground bomb, where 21 people have been confirmed dead and hundreds more injured.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4678837.stm

Eliaz Fiaz, 30, named earlier in the Independent and The Daily Mail, did not appear in later editions of those or other newspapers.
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/afp/20050711/londonbombers.html

So, what role, if any, had Nadim Fiaz in the plot and why was he identified by some as the fourth bomber?

[allemand]

23. Correction: Nadim/Ejaz Fadim wasn't the fourth bomber, but he seems to be

on the run. His brother has been arrested. Their house in Leeds was used as meeting place:

Neighbours said the house, which is just 200m from Tanweer's home, was controlled by two sons of the owners and had been used for meetings of young men. Three to 10 men would occasionally meet there until late in the night. (...)

There are several Fiaz siblings but the police are interested in two brothers: 30-year-old Ejaz, known locally as Jacksy, and Naveed, 29. Jacksy has not been seen since just before the bombing.

Locals say Naveed, 29, whose wife is pregnant, is the person under arrest and being questioned at the high-security Paddington Green police station in London.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,15934678%255E2703,00.html

[allemand]

26. The title should read Nadim/Ejaz Fiaz, of course. n/t

[stickdog]

34. But I thought the Hamara Healthy Living Centre was the meeting place,

according to some unnamed "official" at least:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1529021,00.html

"We talked to police yesterday because we have got so much information in terms of people who met together in large groups there," said the Guardian's source. "There were meetings, meetings, meetings - there didn't seem to be much youth work going on. People came in from outside the community to these meetings. There were people going in there who had nothing to do with youth work."

[allemand]

41. Did it occur to you that they had several meeting places?

Obviously not.

[stickdog]

60. Did it occur to YOU that all of this sounds like utter bullshit?

Obviously not.

[allemand]

68. So you consider the idea that they had several meeting places "utter BS"?

But you don't even bother to present even one single argument to back up this rather strange view?

Very telling.

:eyes:

[stickdog]

74. Try reading before you criticize.

Not to do so is extremely telling.

This statement came from an anonymous official who supposedly warned the police about the Hamara Centre:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1529021,00.html


"We talked to police yesterday because we have got so much information in terms of people who met together in large groups there," said the Guardian's source. "There were meetings, meetings, meetings - there didn't seem to be much youth work going on. People came in from outside the community to these meetings. There were people going in there who had nothing to do with youth work."


OK, so according to this guy, the Hamara Centre -- built up with 1 millions pounds of taxpayer funding -- was being used to foment deadly Islamic terrorism.

Yet:

It is an outbuilding of a larger community centre which was built in a £1m project part-funded by the government's New Opportunities Fund and opened by Hilary Benn and his father Tony in 2003. Police were not concerned yesterday with the main centre on Tempest Road but only with the Lodge Lane office, which is used by many different groups.


The police aren't interested enough to even talk to the guys who run the entire community center.


Hanif Malik, chairman of the Hamara centre, said none of the three bombers were regular staff at the centre but had used it for sports facilities. Asked if any of his employees were being held by police in London for questioning he said: "No one has formally told me any names. I have not been informed."


Nor are they even interested in questioning the folks who worked at the Lodge Lane office.

Doesn't this strike you as a bit peculiar?

[allemand]

82. So you do agree that there could have been several meeting places?

One at the Hamara Centre and one at the house of Nadim Fiaz?

Your post #34 "But I thought the Hamara Healthy Living Centre was the meeting place" seems to indicate that you saw a contradiction between reports about meetings at the Hamara Centre and other meetings at Nadim Fiaz' house, but evidently there is no contradiction: there could have been several meeting places.

I don't think that the Guardian article supports the conclusions you are drawing from it:

Guardian: "It is an outbuilding of a larger community centre which was built in a £1m project part-funded by the government's New Opportunities Fund and opened by Hilary Benn and his father Tony in 2003. Police were not concerned yesterday with the main centre on Tempest Road but only with the Lodge Lane office, which is used by many different groups."

You: "The police aren't interested enough to even talk to the guys who run the entire community center."

This is not what the text says. The police was not interested in the building on on Tempest Road, they were just searching the Lodge Lane office. It doesn't say anything about staff.

Guardian: "Hanif Malik, chairman of the Hamara centre, said none of the three bombers were regular staff at the centre but had used it for sports facilities. Asked if any of his employees were being held by police in London for questioning he said: "No one has formally told me any names. I have not been informed."

You: "Nor are they even interested in questioning the folks who worked at the Lodge Lane office."

Again, this is not what the text says. Hanif Malik simply states that he doesn't know if his employees were being held by police.

[JoFerret]

73. It occurs to me that nothing much is known yet

although the British investigation seems to have uncovered quite a lot. It also occurs to me it's not time to go ballistic.

[maddezmom]

25. CNN reported the name of the 4th bomber was Germaine Lindsey

confirmed by US official, not UK. :shrug:

[stickdog]

29. Once again, WHO ARE all of these neighbors who saw all these

weird and pseudo-damning things?

Wake me when "they" "report" that Khan didn't cry at his own mother's funeral, OK?

[Frederik]

48. That would be the home of

the schizophrenic Elvis fan.

[mainer]

21. Were these lads sent in unaware of what was about to happen?

Reports say they arrived at King's Cross looking perfectly relaxed, as though on vacation. Were they dupes? Did they think they were delivering something other than bombs?

I say this because of the case of the female Palestinian suicide bomber who had several young children. Many people couldn't understand that a mother would blow herself up. But in interviews, another muslim woman said: "Do you think she WANTED to blow herself up? What really happened was that she had committed a moral infraction, and was told by her family that she had only two choices: blow herself up and redeem herself, or her family would dispose of her in an "honor" killing. That woman didn't want to die.

It makes me wonder how many suicide bombers are unwitting -- or unwilling -- victims.

[itaintoveryet]

24. i am sorry

but these men don't sound like bombers to me; what evidence has been submitted to support these allegations ? how does one know that they weren't simply at the wrong place at the wrong time ? i hate the way the media convicts the "right" people without submitting any concrete evidence.

[stickdog]

30. How many lifelong first world western terrorists have knowingly and

willing sacrificed their lives just to help them to murder a large number their countrymen because of their very well hidden political and/or religious differences?

None that I can think of. How about you?

[stlsaxman]

84. This story line has stunk from the get-go.

Too many "conveniences" in this whole "suicide bombers from Leeds" theory...

This whole thing stinks.

Thanks for the documents, stickdog.

[JackieO]

31. weird stuff

thanks for all the clips, stickdog

[allemand]

32. According to a friend, Khan had attended military training camps

in Pakistan and Afghanistan:

Behind the respectable front of a government-funded community centre, the two youngest suicide bombers are believed to have been radicalised by mentors whom they saw as father figures. (...)

On the surface the project, an offshoot of the main Hamara community building, was doing outreach work with young men and women in the deprived area. But an official working elsewhere in the community, who did not want to be named, told the Guardian that he had reported the goings on at the youth centre to police after he became suspicious that it was a front for radicalising young men.

Shehzad Tanweer, 22, the Aldgate bomber, and Hasib Hussain, 18, the bus bomber, both regularly attended the centre on Lodge Lane where the Edgware Road bomber Mohammad Sidique Khan, 30, did youth work. Tanweer and Hussain looked up to Khan as a "father figure" according to one friend, and regularly played football with him as part of the youth project.

A friend of Khan told the BBC that he had travelled regularly to Pakistan and Afghanistan to attend military training camps. "He used it as a recruitment centre," he said.

More:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1529021,00.html

[stickdog]

33. Let's deconstruct this STORY a bit.

Khan lived about 10 miles away from the Hamara Healthy Living Centre, worked overtime at a full-time job, had a daughter (his first kid) in late 2004, and supposedly spent a lot of time at the gym.


The Hamara centre, which translates as "ours", is within a few hundred yards of the Beeston home of Tanweer, the former home of Khan and a half mile from Hussain's house. It is an outbuilding of a larger community centre which was built in a £1m project part-funded by the government's New Opportunities Fund and opened by Hilary Benn and his father Tony in 2003. Police were not concerned yesterday with the main centre on Tempest Road but only with the Lodge Lane office, which is used by many different groups.

...

Hanif Malik, chairman of the Hamara centre, said none of the three bombers were regular staff at the centre but had used it for sports facilities. Asked if any of his employees were being held by police in London for questioning he said: "No one has formally told me any names. I have not been informed."


Well, that's just dandy that the police aren't at all interested in any of the folks who oversaw government grant money being used to foment Islamic terror, but might PERHAPS the reporters of the story have cared enough about rudimentary journalism to ask the chairman (or vice-chairman) of this community center for his reaction to these egregiously scandalous charges?

If not, why not?


Yesterday other young Muslim men distanced themselves from what was going on in the youth access point. Nasir, a 22-year-old Bradford University student, who was one of Tanweer's best friends, said Khan had had a huge influence on many young men in the area.


Does this Nasir guy have a last name? If not, why not?

According to Nasir:

" was a father figure to lots of young kids round here, they looked up to him. He was a youth worker who used that centre and he used to play football with the young kids. Personally I didn't respect him as a father figure, but lots of kids did. It looks to me like Sidique was the older figure who was influencing them . I never knew that Sidique and Shehzad and Hasib knew each other well. But I have heard since they had been quite close through this centre and I was really shocked, to be honest."


So even though he didn't respect Khan as a father figure and was "shocked" to "hear" (from whom?) that Khan had somehow become close with supposed best buddy Shehzad, it now "looks" to him that Sidique had enough influence over his best friend to convince him to become a suicide bomber?


"The Lodge Lane centre was used for youth work," said Reverend Neil Bishop. "I have never had any concerns about the work Hamara do. That centre has been doing youth work for seven or eight years. The people I knew there are all perfectly regular people."Asked if he had known Fiaz and Khan, Mr Bishop said: "No."


So these "journalists" hatched up this little bombshell based on the musings of an anonymous "official" and spiced up with a little completely unsourced hearsay related to them by a self-described "friend" of the accused who doesn't appear to have a last name. And for a reaction to these horrid accusations, these wonderful journalists refrain from querying any of the principles of the Hamara Hamara Healthy Living Centre and instead present the word of a reverend who is not related to the community center or the alleged perpetrators in any way!

[allemand]

35. I wouldn't describe the BBC as "completely unsourced hearsay"...

In an interview with the BBC, a family friend whose identity was protected for his own safety talked of Khan's frequent trips to extremist training camps in Pakistan.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/15/world/main709317.shtml

I saw the interview. When he heard about the London bombs, he went to the police. According to him, Khan had expressed some very extremist views in private, but he didn't do so in public. Sadly, the friend didn't take it seriously enough and simply considered him a bit of a "fruitcake".

[stickdog]

38. Only because you're gullible. What else do you call the utterly

unconfirmed ravings of an anonymous supposed physic?

http://www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=55&ArticleID=1086384

[allemand]

44. The police and the BBC know his identity. Can't you understand why he

wants to remain anonymous? For obvious security reasons.

And "supposed physic"? Another case of PWI...? ;-)

[stickdog]

49. Oh, sure. OBVIOUS SECURITY REASONS ...

Is that why the newspapers have been unable and unwilling to even attempt to confirm the accuracy of this anonymous psychic's claims?

[muriel_volestrangler]

54. Stop this 'psychic' bullcrap

There are no 'psychic' claims.

Reasons for remaingin anonymous:

British police on Tuesday continued a crack-down on the perpetrators of a number of so-called "revenge" attacks on the Muslim community following last Thursday's deadly bomb attacks on London's transport system, believed by investigators to have been carried out by al-Qaeda. Britain's most senior Muslim cleric, Iqbal Sacranie, secretary general of the Muslim council of Great Britain has written to imams across the country, warning them to guard against a wave of 'Islamophobia' in Britain.

Police have vowed to deal "robustly" with some ten incidents in different parts of the country since the London bombings. Six people were arrested in connection with the suspected murder of a Pakistani man in the Midlands town of Nottingham on Sunday. Five people have been arrested on suspicion of attempting to petrol bomb a Sikh temple in Belvedere, South-East London last Thursday, and another individual has been charged in connection with hoax calls to an unnamed place of worship, police said. .
...
Also on Monday, the Pakistani Consulate in the Laisterdyke area of Bradford in northern England, one of the British cities with the highest proportion of South Asians, was attacked by arsonists.

On Sunday, two white men threw petrol into the letterbox of the Shajala Mosque in Birkenhead, northern England, and ignited it. The assistant imam, Boshir Ullah was trapped inside in his upstairs bedroom as the fire blazed on the landing outside. Fire crews pulled him to safety from an upstairs window and extinguished the blaze, the Independent newspaper reported.

http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level.php?cat=Religion&loid=8.0.186302212&par=0

There are nutters in Britain, particularly the supporters of the BNP, would would attack anyone associated with the bombers.

[stickdog]

57. Spin away. It still doesn't turn the unconfirmed musings of anonymous

psychics and other supposed "officials" and "acquaintances" into legitimate journalism.

[muriel_volestrangler]

62. Calling someone psychic is spin. Using quotation marks

around words like officials and acquaintances is spin. Questioning whether not naming people who have good reason to fear attack from racist groups is spin. Your entire attitude in this thread, from beginning to end, is spin.

[stickdog]

64. Really? So what do you call "journalism" that unquestioningly keeps

repeating nothing more than the unconfirmed hearsay of anonymous (but supposed) acquaintances and officials?

Just wondering ...

[allemand]

70. Once again: police and BBC know the identity of that man, journalists know

the identities of police officials that prefer not to be named in their reports. This is how journalism works.

They are not quoting people that are anonymous to them.

Why is this so difficult to understand?

[stickdog]

76. This is not how JOURNALISM works. But it's exactly how Judith Miller sold

the Iraq War by presenting Chalabi's lies as fact, though.

It's EXACTLY how Plame was outed by Novak, though.

These stories are obviously PLANTED. Otherwise, where are the counter-reactions of the family members, employers, coworkers, mosque leaders and administrators of these places in question?

Specifically concerning the anonymous guy who called the BBC to say that Khan often went to military camps in Afghanistan, what does Khan's visa history say about that? What does his family say? What do his employers say?

"Somebody who claimed to be and acquaintance of Khan said he heard something from some other unnamed source" is NOT worthy of a story without SOME sort of independent confirmation.

[LibertyorDeath]

42. Good deconstruct I wish more people would do this

:kick::kick::kick:

[allemand]

46. Here's why Nasir and many others don't give their full names:

Many Muslims in Leeds refused to give their full names to reporters for reasons including community loyalty, suspicion of the media, or fear of reprisal for being associated with the suspects.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-07-15-suspect-profiles_x.htm

[stickdog]

50. Or perhaps because they were talking out of their asses?

Just a thought ...

[allemand]

66. So all those praising Khan and the others are "talking out of their asses"

or just those whose opinions you don't like?

:eyes:

That is a very odd attitude, but certainly not the methodology of serious journalism.

[stickdog]

79. Note that most of the ones praising Khan stated their names and had

independently confirmable relationships with the man.

Isn't that counterintuitive to you, considering the rationale you gave for the nearly universal anonymity of Khan's accusers?

[stickdog]

37. The story of Khan's "friend" who called BBC to say he was a "fruitcake."

Well, what do you know? Not only another anonymous source, but a truly psychic tattletale as well. Strange, isn't it, that our psychic hero also "refused to be identified"?

http://www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=55&ArticleID=1086384

The outwardly-respectable learning mentor at a Yorkshire school trained in the use of weapons and explosives at remote camps, and was branded a "fruitcake" who regularly voiced anger over the effects of Western foreign policy in Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan. The claims were made during a radio interview by an acquaintance of Khan, before it was revealed he was one of the suicide bombers. The man who made the claims contacted the BBC suggesting they contacted Khan for background information about terrorism, without knowing he was already dead.

The man, who refused to be identified, had also told police of his concern that 30-year-old Khan from Dewsbury – who blew up the Edgware Road Underground train – may be indoctrinating young people he worked with.

He said: "From what I've heard, he used to travel extensively overseas, especially to Asia – Pakistan, Afghanistan. He use to regularly be out of the country, going to Afghanistan and carrying out training, every year or so. It would be regarding being trained up, being a fighter, being skilled in the use of army-type training, the use of weapons, explosives and simply military discipline as to how action should be carried out in the field."

...

"It was very strange, especially with him being a teacher," he said. "I thought he was a bit of a fruitcake or an odd fish."


Of course, no trained journalist would dare repeat the damning hearsay of an anonymous acquaintance without a least first attempting to check with Khan's employers and his family to see if these outrageous, scandalous claims could be immediately disproven by his work history and/or visa, now would they?

[allemand]

43. How do you know the BBC didn't do these background checks?

The BBC is renowned for its high standard of journalism.

BTW, it was a television interview, not a radio interview.

And how can you call that man a "psychic" without even having seen the interview. If you want others to maintain a high standard of journalism, don't you think that you should do the same?

[stickdog]

51. What else do you call a guy who just happens to alert the BBC that Khan

is a terrorist "fruitcake" just hours BEFORE British authorities release the exact same conclusion to the press?

[muriel_volestrangler]

55. Let's use your own emboldened passage

"The man who made the claims contacted the BBC suggesting they contacted Khan for background information about terrorism, without knowing he was already dead."

That doesn't sound 'psychic' to me. It sounds like he thought Khan was still alive. It sounds as if he had heard Khan talk about terrorism, and so thought he might tell the BBC more, from the viewpoint of someone who might support terrorism.

[stickdog]

56. Do you think calling someone psychic is an insult?

Either the guy was psychic or he somehow knew Khan was getting fingered before the BBC did. Which would you prefer?

[muriel_volestrangler]

61. No, you are wrong. Neither of your choices need be true.

He did not "know Khan was getting fingered before the BBC did". He suggested the BBC contact him for more information on terrorism. That's from your own quote. He knew the man, and knew he had said some extreme things.

Yes, I do think that claiming someone is psychic is an insult - particularly in a discussion about evidence.

[stickdog]

63. Did this psychic really know Khan, then?

So how did he know Khan, then? What exactly was this unnamed, anonymous psychic's relationship to Khan -- a man he told the BBC was an anti-British "fruitcake" just hours before Khan was fingered as a terrorist perpetrator by British authorites?

[muriel_volestrangler]

65. What psychic?

[stickdog]

80. If he gave his name, maybe we'd know. (nt)

[allemand]

67. He was a family friend and he went to the police before he talked to the

BBC. He considered Khan "a bit of a fruitcake" because of the extremist views that he expressed in private. He didn't call him a "terrorist fruitcake".

[stickdog]

77. A family friend? Really? Perhaps from the Indian side of the family that

never approved of Khan, a Pakistani?

Can you see where that might make a difference in terms of bias? Can you see where some radical anti-Pakistani Indians might seek political profit from this tragedy?

Furthermore, why has NO ATTEMPT been made to confirm or deny the accuracy of his outrageous claims? Would looking into Khan's travel history to see if these claims have ANY merit be too much to ask?

Obviously, you think so.

[Orsino]

36. Policies of UK government offer much to explain attacks. n/t

[Stella_Artois]

53. 51 people didn't deserve to die

Regardless if these four knew they were about to commit suicide, they knew that they were about to kill people.

If they don't like the policies of the UK government, they could put their energies into removing the government via the democratic process. The Lib Dems would get the UK out of Iraq.

Instead they murder 51 people 23 or so who statisically were against the war in Iraq, and have strengthened the hand of Blair and Bush.

Unless you think that its just a conincidence that all four died in the bombings, or that they were lured down there in some complex government operation or something, in which case you need to get hard evidence to prove your case.

[stickdog]

58. I'm guessing that our supposed and obviously Blair sanctioned "perps"

were among those who didn't deserve to die.

But I guess I'm just nuts to question authority and all that ...

[Orsino]

69. If the UK government doesn't like terror attacks...

...they could inject a little more humanity and sanity into their policies. If they continue to ape us, they will continue to be targets, and would thereby share in the blame.

[Stella_Artois]

72. They didn't attack the government did they though ?

They attacked 50+ innocent civilians, none of whom have ever set foot in Iraq, as far as i know. Some of them were not even British and at least one was muslim.

How can you justify these tactics, or imply that these people deserved to die ?

[Orsino]

83. Never justified them.

But if the UK government doesn't change its foreign policies, we may presume that they like these attacks just fine.

Keep your straw men.

[bobbieinok]

40. interesting that several posts question that bombers have been found

the analyses of the 'sources of negative info' are intriguing

sick that many of us have been pushed to a point that we initially/instinctively question any official statement

the excerpts of news stories quoted and the NPR reports I heard yesterday made me think that there would be a push in Britain for much greater control over the native-born Islamic population......a bit convenient, or...?

[stlsaxman]

85. Also convenient that in UK, I believe-

You're NOT innocent until proved guilty- rather it is the accused's responsibility to prove their innocence.

Isn't this the way British Law works? I know it's quite different from US law... Subtle diffs?

Please elaborate, someone?

[daleo]

88. U.S. law is derived from English common law

And most of the principles of one apply to the other, including the burden being on the state of having to establish guilt. It is the same in most of the English speaking world.

Specific items of the criminal codes of various countries will differ of course. The Rumpole of the Bailey novels are an amusing way to learn about English law.

[allemand]

47. Father upset that Hussain became radicalised under Khan's influence:

The father of Hasib Hussain, the 18-year-old bus bomber from Colenso Mount, Beeston, is reported to have been upset by the influence "Mr K" wielded over his son.
Mahmoud Hussain is understood to have said his son had become radicalised under his influence and said he had developed two religions, Muslim and another kind of Muslim. (...)

(Khan, Hussain and Tanweer) had been banned from the Hardy Street mosque for their radical preaching and so instead met at a local centre. Yesterday it also emerged they had been banned from mosques across the Beeston area.

http://www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=55&ArticleID=1087435

[stickdog]

52. More completely passive voice bullshit "reporting"

From the article linked above:

The father of Hasib Hussain, the 18-year-old bus bomber from Colenso Mount, Beeston, is reported to have been upset by the influence "Mr K" wielded over his son.

Mahmoud Hussain is understood to have said his son had become radicalised under his influence and said he had developed two religions, Muslim and another kind of Muslim. Police are also believed to have found that the name "Mr K" kept appearing.

WHO reported this?

WHO "understood" this?

WHO "believed" the police have found that "Mr K kept appearing"?

[Igel]

71. Why is it so important to you that these particular people be

judged or believed not guilty in the press?

Because it's unacceptable that people of Pakistani origin did something bad?

Because somebody claimed to be Muslim did something bad?

Because people born in England did something bad?

Or because there's somebody else with even less evidence pointing at them that one desires to claim did something bad?

Or some other reason, the postulating of which escapes me?

[stickdog]

78. Stop me if you've heard this one before ...

First They Came for the Jews

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

[Tom Bombadil]

81. Stickdog

Who do you believe planted the bombs in London?

[Igel]

86. But they're not coming for anybody.

Everybody involved is dead. (Unless we go for the idea the backpacks were just planted, and the bombers ducked out in time.)

It makes little difference to the dead if we think it was an Irish girl in the front of the bus that planted the bomb, or a white English construction worker, or a young Pakistani man. The British seem to be putting the entire affair into the hands of the criminal investigators and from there it'll go to the courts.

[stickdog]

87. That's what you think.

http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/5511492.html

[Igel]

89. I was around for the "let's infiltrate militias and far-right

Xian group" talk in the mid-90s. I thought it was a good thing.

A few spoke of civil liberties, but when you have a preacher saying they have to "keep the niggers in their places" or a militia leader calling for lynching blacks--and it looked like they were taking steps to do so, or members acted on their words--the civil liberty talk fell on mostly deaf ears; but most people I know spoke against the Posse Comitatus and other such militias, and the far-right racist organizations that spewed hate. Even fundamentalist and conservative Christians were smeared, with little defense, in this talk. Since then I haven't noticed many people arrested for their beliefs, unless their beliefs called for violence (*and* it was couched in specific enough language to avoid freedom of speech issues). Granted, it's only been a little over a decade ...

[stickdog]

90. Yes, they scared liberals with the militia bogeyman to get us to give up

our rights, and it worked like a charm.

How predictably pathetic we are sometimes.

[Angry Girl]

75. Anyone seen the movie Arlington Road? n/t