Groups Fighting Illegal Immigration Spread

[Judi Lynn]

Groups Fighting Illegal Immigration Spread By DUNCAN MANSFIELD, Associated Press Writer
41 minutes ago



MORRISTOWN, Tenn. - A volunteer movement that vows to guard America from a wave of illegal immigration has spread from the dusty U.S.-Mexican border to the verdant hollows of Appalachia.

At least 40 anti-immigration groups have popped up nationally, inspired by the Minuteman Project that rallied hundreds this year to patrol the Mexican border in Arizona.

"It's like O'Leary's cow has kicked over the lantern. The fire has just started now," said Carl "Two Feathers" Whitaker, an American Indian activist and perennial gubernatorial candidate who runs the Tennessee Volunteer Minutemen, aimed at exposing those who employ illegals.

Critics call the movement vigilantism, and some hear in the words of the Minutemen a vitriol similar to what hate groups like the Ku Klux Klan used against Southern blacks in the 1960s.
(snip/...)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050717/ap_on_re_us/anti_immigration_minutemen;_ylt=AnDAI0JTuITPI3YtiUrXJaBG2ocA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

[iconoclastic cat]

1. Soon, Bushco will make the Minutemen a faith-based initiative! n/t

[Robert Oak]

5. Bush Corp hates the minutemen

He despises all of these cats and has banned Tom Tancredo from entering the white house. I believe also Bush Corp has "gone after" Tancredo.

This is because Bush corporations wants illegal aliens here. This is the motive for Big Business and in the WTO right now there are proposals and just plain fat lies saying it won't "hurt American workers" for unlimited worker VISAs and H-1B VISAs under the control of the WTO,
not the nation state.

What does that mean? It means that nations will no longer be able to control their immigration policy. The VISAs are controlled by multinational corporations (literally they receive them they control who gets them and they can revoke them).

So, what does unlimited worker movement remind us of? There was something called the slave trade where people were tradable commodities.

This is exactly the definition of the WTO GATS mode 4, people are tradable commodities and any immigration policy can now be ruled illegal as a "barrier to trade".

[iconoclastic cat]

8. Wow. I'm going to go read up on all this.

Thanks!

[Robert Oak]

10. thank you

I am a "bleeding heart liberal", complete for justice for all, equality, affirmative action and so on.

And yes, there are some wackos out there who have "attached themselves"
to the immigration issue..truly offensive...I monitor a lot of lists...

so I am hoping that other liberals can piecemeal through the facts
and get on this issue and see what myself and many others, who really are liberals have discovered and why we're raising it.

I'm thrilled to have another dig deep.

[maquisard]

12. Make sure of your sources

Immigration, even more than most policy fields, is the stomping ground of a lot of right-wing wackos posing as social scientists, including the innocuous-sounding Center for Immigration Studies, the Federation for American Immigration Reform, as well as the more openly racist David Duke. Such agencies produce a great many "studies" documenting how immigration is destroying the planet, yet, stragely, no respectable think tank is ever able to reproduce their results or even guess at the kind of methologogies they must have employed to arrive at such slanted results.

If you want "data" to support knee-jerk reactionism against immigants, finding it is all too easy. If you want to know the real situation, consult the nonpartisan thinktanks, such as Urban Institute or Migration Policy Institute. Urban did a now rather dated study which goes through and de-bunks most of the anti-immigrant mythology out there. Check it out at:

http://www.urban.org/Template.cfm?NavMenuID=24&template=/TaggedContent/ViewPublication.cfm&PublicationID=5868

[Robert Oak]

34. Urban institute funded by right wing conservative foundations!

Firstly I have no seen one shred of credible evidence to put David Duke in connection with either of these think tanks. If someone digs out some real facts, feel free, but so far all I have seen is a reference to another group that is truly corrupt and for illegal immigration, funded by multinationals.

Second, in any case, it's a good idea to check credibility.

Here is the Urban Institute
http://www.mediatransparency.org/recipientgrants.php?recipientID=779

ok, that is a CONSERVATIVE donor base...(Smith Richardson Foundation)
and
The Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation, Inc.

With over $700 million in assets1 (down to $489 million in 2002), the Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation of Milwaukee, Wisconsin is the country's largest and most influential right-wing foundation.

supply side economics, "unlimited movement of workers as commodities" agenda.

Anyway, it is important to trace through the backgrounds, challenge
anybody with a racist agenda yet do not let yourself be hoodwinked
by multinational corporations and their agenda to turn the globe
into a class of serfs.

Also, here is a study by the US government on burden:

http://www.gao.gov/highlights/d03993high.pdf

And here is a Cuban, who is an Academic and I just don't believe this guy is "cooking his stats" on labor economics, his area of expertise.
http://ksghome.harvard.edu/~GBorjas/publications_for_download.html

[Robert Oak]

35. so is FAIR, Center for Immigration studies, right wing $$

To be fair, again, I don't see any "KKK" donors to FAIR and the Center for Immigration Studies but big buck right wing is there, this is true.
Cartridge is huge (Mellon, industrial banking and oil).

[Robert Oak]

36. conservatives, splitter

I should point out there is a huge difference with conservative groups
(although I don't know the detailed agenda of the donors above)...
but there are many conservatives who agree with liberals on
global warming, trade, budget deficits and so forth and hate Bush corporation as much as liberals do.

Believe it or not, some just teamed up with the Sierra club since both
are getting defeated and our environmental policy is being ripped to shreds by Bush corporation.

There are differences, esp. on social issues, some outrageous some
not...

then there are the "corporate party" members who have the evangelical
right 100% and want to dismantle completely FDR's new deal, like those multinational trade agreements and they also want unlimited worker movement between nations.

Just for info: I'm with FDR's philosophy of "what actually works" and facts.

[primavera]

45. FAIR recently made a big push to join Sierra Club...

...hoping that their membership in the organization would give them enough votes to appoint anti-immigrant activists to the Sierra Club board of directors, who, in turn, would direct the influence and prestige of the Sierra Club to promote racist, anti-immigrant policies. Happily, the attempt failed.

[primavera]

41. Scaife Mellon and Pioneer Fund

... are the big funders for FAIR, which distributes funds in turn to CIS, American Patrol, and the rest of John Tanton's consortium of anti-immigrant agencies. Scaife Mellon is about as right-wing as they come, and the Pioneer Fund is a eugenics foundation dedicated to carrying on the good work of Joseph Mengele.

[primavera]

47. ?

The GAO report to which you link is just an estimate of the costs associated with a totalization agreement with Mexico, and it mostly says that there's vast uncertainty in estimating the costs. How does that support your claim that immigration burdens social services?

As for academics, well, there are a ton of them on either side of the issue. For another perspective, see Sheila Croucher's work, Imagining Miami. Dr. Croucher is a political scientist who applied every known poli sci, labor, and econ model to the question of whether immigrants produce labor shortages for US workers and, no matter how much she bent and twisted the numbers, was consistently unable to support the popular perception that immigrants steal jobs from US workers.

[Robert Oak]

56. opposite of every study I have read

From GAO: you are attempting to twist their report when using the term "Uncertain" to mean not a problem. Here is the quote which implies it's uncertain how much a greater economic problem it is due to unknown number of illegal aliens in the US (from Mexico).

The cost of such an agreement is highly uncertain. In March 2003, the Office of the Chief Actuary estimated that the cost of the Mexican agreement would be $78 million in the first year and would grow to $650 million (in constant 2002 dollars) in 2050. The actuarial cost estimate assumes the initial number
of newly eligible Mexican beneficiaries is equivalent to the 50,000
beneficiaries living in Mexico today and would grow sixfold over time.
However, this proxy figure does not directly consider the estimated millions of current and former unauthorized workers and family members from Mexico and appears small in comparison with those estimates. The estimate also inherently assumes that the behavior of Mexican citizens would not change and does not recognize that an agreement would create an additional incentive for unauthorized workers to enter the United States to work and maintain documentation to claim their earnings under a false identity. Although the actuarial estimate indicates that the agreement would not generate a measurable long-term impact on the actuarial balance of the trust funds, a subsequent sensitivity analysis performed at GAO’s request shows that a measurable impact would occur with an increase of more than 25 percent in the estimate of initial, new beneficiaries. For prior agreements, error rates associated with estimating the expected number of new beneficiaries have frequently exceeded 25 percent, even in cases where uncertainties about the number of unauthorized workers were less prevalent. Because of the significant number of unauthorized Mexican workers in the United States, the estimated cost of the proposed totalization
agreement is even more uncertain than in prior agreements.

Here is the Washington Post article stating quite clearly the costs
of illegal immigration. There are so many credible studies to find as already mentioned.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20...13815-2307r.htm

I would have to read this book, but from reading about it, the book is discussing political demographics and sociological change in miami due to immigration.

This is not illegal immigration nor is it a book on labor economics.

I'm sorry but some people just want to twist the facts no matter how hard they blow in your face. Republicans get blamed for this constantly but I sure see it on this side also.

These are credible studies and statistics and objective analysis are just that. One of the world leading experts in labor ecomomics is reporting it's an economic negative burden. Sorry, it is.

[primavera]

61. That's a Washington Times article...

...not a Washington Post article, and there is a world of difference between the two, just read Blinded by the Right by David Brock about his experience in the Washington Times' right-wing spin doctoring machine. It hardly qualifies as an objective, scholarly study on the subject.

GAO admittedly does do good research, but it's important to bear in mind that GAO reports analyze only tiny issues at a time, the impact of a particular program or piece of legislation, or, in this case, an international agreement, they aren't attempting to address macro level issues. So your reference speaks to a small piece of the puzzle, but does not illuminate the overall picture.

No one argues that undocumented immigrants consume a certain amount of social services such as health care and school for their chilkdren and so on, even as we do. So if you choose to focus on that one side of the issue, sure, it's easy to cast immigrants as a drain on social services. But what that ignores is the fact that most immigrants, both legal and illegal, pay taxes, just the same as we do. SSA estimates that illegal immigrants have contributed nearly half a trillion dollars into Social Security, of which they will never see a penny, as their contributions were without valid Social Security Numbers, so there's no way to trace each individual's contribution. I don't have time right this instant to track down the source, but it was published in the New York Times a few months ago, you shouldn't have too much difficulty finding it.

The other consideration which is commonly left out is the contribution the immigrants make to the local economy. I know, everyone wants to believe that immigranst steal jobs from Americans, but the numbers just aren't there to support that claim. Consider Arizona, which gnashes its teeth and rends its garments about the evils of illegal immigration and how they're bearing an undue burden through having to support social services for all of these undocumenteds. Well, I hate to be the one to break it to them, but Arizona has one of the healthiest economies in the country right now. Unemployment is among the lowest in the country, per capita income is among the highest, housing starts are way up, new construction is going on everywhere, they have a fabulous trade balance by virtue of exporting agricultural goods to other states as well as other countries, their economy is booming, it's far better shape than the rest of the country. And just about any economist you talk to, save those who work for the Washington Times, will tell you that that's the result of the abundant supply of low cost immigrant labor in the state, which allows them to do all of these things. And, contrary to popular perception, there has been no surge in unemployment resulting from immigrants stealing jobs from US workers, rather, the US workers who used to work as construction workers and have been displaced by immigrants from the low paying construction jobs have become foremen, making more money than they made before, or gone on to other jobs which paid better than what they were making before. Again, if the popular perception that immigranst were taking these jobs from US workers, wouldn't it stand to reason that we'd see a surge in unemployment? Yet it's just not there, there is no surge in unemployment there, quite the contrary, unemployment has dropped thanks to immigration.

So an immigrant consumes social services, but is also paying for them through taxes and their contributions to the economy. So what really is the difference between an American worker using social services and paying for them and an immigrant using social services and paying for them, other than that one is white and the other has brown skin, making them such an easy target for scapegoating?

[Robert Oak]

72. studies not ignoring taxes, fake social security, still negative, burden!

HOw about reading the studies and some of these other statements are just not correct.

There are also studies which clearly show that illegal immigration is depressing wages, "stealing jobs" from Americans...in fact ethic groups of Americans. Groups of ethic diversity in order of being hurt:

1. Hispanics
2. Blacks

Just one example of the economic burden are the many hospitals that have shut their doors due to not getting paid, by illegal aliens. LA is one of the worst.

I have no idea why anyone would argue FOR illegal immigration.

And if you do not like the Washington times, then read the Time Magazine cover story which reported pretty much the same thing.

If you want to argue for amnesty or for guest worker programs or even the absolutely disastrous open border philosophy, feel free...

but to argue about facts that are well published is ridiculous.

It is a real problem and where in the differences in philosophy
and party is what to do about this problem.

I, for one, focus on labor economics and the WTO/GATS, which wants
labor to be a commodity and illegal immigration is one thing they love..illegal immigration....and in general multinational corporation through immigration policy or lack of enforcement to attempting to move into the WTO "services" which are people as a tradable commodity across national borders, where they control 100% the VISA (i.e. the rights) of the worker...is on the agenda of multinational corporations. Right now India is attempting to get unlimited guest worker VISAs, controlled by multinational corporations, into the WTO, GATS mode 4.

I am simply not going to argue with someone who refuses to look at the facts of this situation. It's just another person wanting to claim that every fact they do not like is somehow generated by racist white supramenists...which is absolute nonsense.

If you really are a humanitarian and want to take on the 3rd world's poverty by allowing the poor to immigrate into the United STates (versus stopping NAFTA, IMF and the policies that make them poor in the first place) and open America, you would at least be arguing for amnesty, which brings this massive underground economy into the legal American economy.

That does relieve the economic reality that illegals are a massive drain on the US economy. But, to claim it "isn't a problem" is a waste of my time.

[primavera]

75. I spend 40+ hours a week looking at those facts

It's what I do for a living, I'm a migration policy analyst, so rest assured, I see a lot of facts. But the "facts" you espouse remain open to debate. A number doesn't tell you anything, it all depends upon how you did the counting. And, in immigration, a lot of the people doing the counting are people with a specific agenda to push and so their numbers are consistently skewed.

For instance, yes, there are 10.3 million undocumented aliens in the country, which certainly sounds like a lot. But the number is only meaningful within the context. As a percentage of the overall population of the US, 10 million is a drop in the bucket. Relative to other periods in our history, the percentage of immigrants both legal and illegal is actually low right now, it;s been much higher in the past. You refer to the "massive underground economy," which, in the US, accounts for approximately 7% of the economy. In compariosn, the underground economy in Germany and France account for over 20% of economic activity, again, our problem just isn't that serious relative to what it could be and is in many other parts of the world.

Despite your hasty allegations, I am not in favor of illegal immigration, no one I have ever met is. The question is how much are you willing to give up in other areas, such as privacy, civil liberties, due process protections, and the economy in order to achieve a tighter border? It won't come for free, you know. Just how much is it worth to you to seal the border?

[sadiesworld]

79. Substantially increase border patrols and go after employers.

It's not complicated and you know it. The really sad part here is that (IIRC) you are working with dem politicians on this issue. Gee, are my tax dollars being used to fund your enlightening visits here? Or am I being propagandized with my own political contributions?

The REAL reason we are losing privacy, civil liberties and due process protections is that the political elites know things are going to get so bad (re offshoring, illegal immigration, etc.) they will have to crack down on the citizens of this country.

[primavera]

80. We already have

The size and resources allocated to the border patrol have gone up every year for decades and it's now a force of over 40,000 strong with the largest budget of anyone except the military itself. And where has it gotten us? The undocumented population has barely even noticed, it continues to grow at just about exactly the same rate year after year, we might as well have saved our money and done nothing for all the good it's done us.

You want to go after employers? Well, I agree, I think that's a good place to start too, especially since many US employers are paying coyotees out of their own pockets to smuggle aliens past our glorious border defenses. But there too it's tricky, just look at what happened to Tyson's Chicken. They were one of those companies which actively recruited workers in Mexico and then paid smugglers to bring them here. The INS proved that Tyson's had done all of these things, but the company claimed that it was all the fault of some lowly, sacrifical lamb manager whom they threw to the wolves, and there was no way to prove to the jury's satisfaction that the upper level management had in fact known that illegal workers were systematically being recruited and hired, so they had to acquit on all counts and Tyson was back in business again.

It's like the shrub trying to convince everyone that the torture in abu Ghraib was just a few bad apples: you know it's full of shit, but proving it in a court of law is bloody difficult nevertheless.

[sadiesworld]

81. Fine, if 40K doesn't do it, try 80K (we could use the jobs).

One case is lost? Big deal. Impose strict liability in civil suits. Make fines so large they take your breath away.

Sorry, but I'm not buying the wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth from the politicians about all their good faith attempts to stem illegal immigration. These are the same folks who have spent the last couple of decades prostrated on the altar of corporate greed and cheap labor.

edit: spelling

[primavera]

83. Easier said than done

Remember tort reform? Or the bankruptcy bill? Politicians don't do things anymore that piss off the companies whose money they need to get themselves re-elected. I agree it needs to happen, I just have very little faith that this government will.

And as for just adding more and more guys with guns to the border - something which this administration sadly probably will do - ask the East Germans how great their experience with the Berlin Wall was.

[sadiesworld]

85. You don't honestly believe Bushco wants to stop illegal immigration...

do you??? Now you've got me laughing so hard I can't type...

[Robert Oak]

86. really? hmmm...

you cite one reference, not relevant to the topic post and now produce "magic numbers" without citing a reference that contradict the accepted study on Shadow economies.

hmmm....that's a very interesting way to practice a profession, to make up numbers out of the air, especially when dealing with Academic research papers and labor economics.

Just in case anyone else is bothering to read this:

Shadow economy %GDP numbers for 1988-2000:

US: 8.7%
Germany: 16.3%
France: 15.3%

Citation: Shadow Economies Around the World: What Do
We Know?
Friedrich Schneider
University of Linz; CESifo; IZA
Robert Klinglmair
University of Linz
March 2004
Center for Economic Studies & Ifo Institute for Economic Research
Working Paper No. 1167
Institute for the Study of Labor
IZA Discussion Paper No. 1043


http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/issues/issues30/

2004 shadow economy estimates:
hover around 9% for the US

In the EU the shadow economy is a very large concern and also involves high taxation as well as illegal immigration, another major political issue within the EU.


Previous posts by you attempt to mix legal immigration with illegal, case in point your "Reference".

[Gormy Cuss]

71. Urban Institute is nonpartisan.

I've known many employees both professionally and personally. They take great pains to research without regard to personal ideology or the ideology of their funders.

Lest you think this is just one person opionion, here is a quote from Urban's own mission statement:

The Institute analyzes and interprets facts and numbers without an ideological agenda. We look beyond obvious explanations, but don't ignore them. We make informed judgments about our research findings but take pains to quarantine our personal beliefs when we design and carry out studies.

Foundation funding is a relative small portion of their overall revenue. The largest source of their funding are the agencies of the federal government. Most of the large foundations funding social research link back to wealthy families, and wealthy families are more likely to be conservative and Republican. Many of these foundations sponsor important social research by nonpartisan think tanks. I for one think that's a better use of the money than funding partisan research.

[VegasWolf]

32. Another example of the redneck evangelical Republicans not going

along with the 0.5% wealthy real Republicans. It's kind
of sad to see the rednecks mocked so much at my country club after
they helped put the elitists in power.

[StrafingMoose]

42. And with no immigration laws & illegal aliens...

comes the probability of "terrorists attacks". When those happens, more power to "Bush Corp" like you call them :P

[MisterP]

43. ah, but Ahnuld praised them and invited them to expand to Calif.

¡viva Lopez Obrador! (if you REALLY care about immigration)

[GetTheRightVote]

2. The DC area has a huge problem with illegal immigrants

It needs to be dealt with or we will continue to have huge problems in our economy due to them. It is sad but very true as well. To many Americans are out of work or unemployed due to this illegal immigrantion.

My own personal opinion is that anyone can come here but they need to be healthy and needed in the work force. They should not be allowed to come here otherwise, sorry.

:kick:

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

37. I see lots of immigrants doing work

That Americans won't touch. I see more in those kinds of jobs than in the jobs that most Americans are looking for. I think if you really want to see who is taking the jobs that are leaving Americans out of work you need to look off shore.


Edit for grammar

[QC]

39. "work that Americans won't touch"

for the pittance that employers are willing to pay.

That last bit always gets left off for some reason.

[primavera]

48. That's a bigger supply and demand issue

If migrant workers weren't available to provide low cost labor, how sure are you that unskilled labor would suddenly command the higher salaries which you suggest would draw in US workers? How many US citizens are working at MalWart for minimum wage? US workers seem to be willing to work those jobs for even less than migrant workers get paid, which is generally well over minimum wage - usually at least $10/hr and over for construction work, for instance, and about the same for agricultural work. Yet, according to your assertion, US workers who now will work for $5/hr for MalWart, will not compete with immigrants for work paying $10/hr and all of that would change if the immigrants would only go home. I'm pretty sure it's not that simple.

Mind you, I'd love to see all workers, regardless of nationality, get paid more for the work they do, but for that to happen, people need to be willing to pay $8/lb for tomatoes instead of $4/lb, they need to be willing to see the cost of new housing construction double, and as long as Americans demand the cheapest of cheap goods and services, I'm afraid I just don't see that happening.

[Pystoff]

60. American won't touch you say???

If you've gotten the pink slip 2 times in a year for cheap illegal labour raise your hand.

Oh no hand raised?

Well I did and lost 2 landscaping jobs in a year for labour priced 5 dollars an hour cheaper thank you very much. Not to mention all the home builders, brick layers, and other that have been priced out of the job market where I live.

"That work americans won't touch" shit is just that....SHIT.

The latin american "immigrant(I use that term loosely) population in my area has freaking exploded in the last 5 years thanks to ShrubCo. Now the middle and lower middle class has been priced out of "work americans won't touch".

Now somebody bleed their heart on that....and where the fuck are the Democrats on this issue dammit!!! Pro-worker right so show it dammit and don't fucking send the DLC.

Sorry about the rant but I am sick of the softy approach to illegal aliens lest the Democratic party might lose a vote from that block crap. Illegal aliens have broken the law just inforce it that's all they don't have to turn wicked to do their job.

Ok rant done...*finishes nervious ticks and foaming of the mouth*...I'm better now.

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

66. I am very sorry for the loss of your jobs. That's wrong.

I don't blame you for being pystoff. Probably I was generalizing when I should have spoken specifically about the market in which I operate a business. My commercial cleaning company does NOT get American workers applying for positions with us. Starting pay is $10/hr with average hourly wage about $14. We hire documented workers. And our crew is from a variety of countries - some hispanic some eastern European.

So our experience here in Central Florida is that there is lots of work that Americans won't touch.

The market here is mostly service oriented so as an earlier poster commented many Americans are choosing lower paying jobs where the work is cleaner. I don't begrudge them their choice but do feel a bit irritated with the argument that there are so many Americans who would work these jobs. I don't believe that if all these jobs were available that Americans would step in to fill them. I also don't believe it is typically because of the low pay. Unfortunately, too many Americans are working jobs that pay poorly when there are better paying jobs out there. Of course, more goes into the choice than just the money. I would guess that my cleaners are making more than many bank tellers, rental agency clerks, dept. store sales people etc. I also think it appropriate that my cleaners get paid more. Third shift cleaning is hard, hard work.

I guess the real point is that the US is a big country and we all have different experiences based on the particular area in which we live. That is something to keep in mind when considering this issue.

I think it would be good if some sort of plan were put in place so that Americans worked first, and areas and businesses in need of employees could have access to immigrant workers. Then I would want to see these workers be a greater part of the system in regards to taxes and documentation and some sort of constaints regarding time here etc. Such a complicated issue.

Best of luck to you Pystoff.

[sadiesworld]

69. Start paying enough and they will come.

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

87. How much exactly do you think would be enough? Have you read the posts??

If you read the post you would see that they start at $10/per hour but average about $14. Which means a good number make more. Starting pay is nearly double the national minimum wage and 64% over the FL minimum wage - at the least. I KNOW that we are the highest paying cleaning company in central Florida and at the top of the heap in the nation. That also makes us one of the highest paying employers in the service industry for comparable jobs in kitchens, hotels etc.

So we could price ourself out of the market which would certainly not help to employ any more Americans. Then the workers we do employ could go work for our competition for $7 to $9.

What would you suggest and at what rate would you be willing to do 3rd shift janitorial work?

[Pretty_in_CodePink]

38. I'm also not sure I would say they cause "huge problems in our economy".

Many still have taxes withheld and they will never collect on them. Many are providing companies with inexpensive labor (not that I agree with that exploitation), and many are allowing companies to provide services which they may have a hard time providing otherwise. They also spend money in our economy, though I know they send a good bit home too.

What huge problems are you talking about?

[IntiRaymi]

76. That's something that is not mentioned very often

Taxes are withheld on any SSN being used for the payment of a salary of any sort. In essence we are taxing them without the assumption of a payout at the very end, when retirement happens. Illegal immigrants do a couple of things for us:
(a) Reduce prices,
(b) Enrich our coffers.
I am sure people here rememebr the 'braceros.'

[primavera]

78. Thank you!

I agree 100%. I'm not all that crazy about the exploitation of low income labor either, but, from the point of view of market economics, which, to my undying shame, is the economic system we have, it's actually a boon as it generates a great deal of eocnomic activity which causes the eocnomy to grow.

[Zorra]

3. Few republican legislators touch this because their corporate masters

love the increased labor competition and forbid them to act against their goose that lays golden eggs.

Few democratic legislators will touch this, because the DLC Dems don't want to upset their corporate masters either, and the populist Dems don't want to upset the hispanic voter bloc. (However, many hispanic American citizens are starting to feel the pinch of job shortages caused by the Bu*h economy, and they don't want any more extra labor competition either.)

Could this be a winning issue for the Dems?

IMO, if they legislate a "guest worker program", Middle America's head will explode, and it will be messy.
:popcorn:

[Robert Oak]

7. Hispanic voter block

Two facts:

1. AZ Prop 200 had the Hispanic vote of 60% for. This was a controversial ballot initiative denying social service benefits and other measures against illegal aliens.

2. The number one ethic group that illegal immigration hurts economically are Hispanics.

I think asking the "Hispanic block" what they think and what they want
is probably a good idea on illegal immigration.

What a concept.

[madrchsod]

4. scratch the surface and you`ll

find the arayn nations. hispanics are the new niggers in these peoples minds...i work side by side with a lady that studies everyday so she can pass her citizenship test at the end of the month. i am sure these fuckers couldn`t pass the test she will take.

[Robert Oak]

6. there are some elements on that

but a lot are aware also of the attempts to manipulation immigration policy to by-pass workers rights, worker safety and most of all, depress wages on a global scale.

One should take a look at some of the Academics who are experts in public policy and labor economics. You will find that they are people of color, some of them are immigrants themselves or their parents were.

I think this is important, because all of these Academics cannot all together be "oreo cookies". Could it be they are aware of something
and are trying to raise attention to it and they are in fact more aware of social inequality and justice due to their backgrounds?

I wish people would look at this issue in depth for the assumption
that it's all "racist white supremacists" is what is enabling multinational corporations to move ahead with their agenda of making people "tradable commodities" with no resistance.

Also, any woman who is taking her citizenship test by definition
cannot be illegal, she had to of come here legally.

[barb162]

27. excellent points made in your posts!

[sled]

13. "In these peoples minds..."?

You know, mind-reading can be a very lucrative profession, these days? Using racial slurs might cut into your prospective market, though...not the best marketing approach, & in this case, sure to offend hispanics...

[Judi Lynn]

9. California vigilantes:Civilian group patrols Mexico border

Posted on Sun, Jul. 17, 2005

Civilian group patrols Mexico border
Associated Press

CAMPO, Calif. - Volunteers began patrolling remote mountains outside San Diego on Saturday, watching for illegal immigrants and drug smugglers as part of a campaign to draw attention to the nation's porous border with Mexico.
(snip)

Jim Chase, a former Arizona Minuteman volunteer who cut ties with that group, is leading the California patrols, which will continue through Aug. 7. He said volunteers will call the Border Patrol if they spot illegal border activity.

Chase, a retired postal worker, said he and others will carry guns for self-defense but will not initiate attacks. "The guns are for one reason - to keep my people alive," he said in an interview Friday.

On Saturday, a loud group of about 100 protesters outnumbered the volunteers, and Chase temporarily drove away from the border to chants of "racists, go home."
(snip)

Earlier this week, the Web site for Chase's group urged volunteers to bring baseball bats, mace, pepper spray and machetes. Chase said he removed those items after the U.S. Border Patrol expressed concern.
(snip/...)

http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/news/nation/12151784.htm



Jim Chase
Chase's recent past:

Last modified Monday, June 20, 2005 9:39 PM PDT
Oceanside man severs Minuteman ties

By: GIG CONAUGHTON - Staff Writer

OCEANSIDE ---- An Oceanside man and anti-illegal-immigration advocate who helped organize the controversial Minuteman Project's border watch announced Monday that he was breaking ties with the group.

James Chase said he was severing ties with the Minuteman Project because of "personal problems" with founder Jim Gilchrist and co-leader Chris Simcox.

Gilchrist blamed the schism over "e-mail catfights," while Andy Ramirez, leader of a Chino-based anti-illegal-immigration group who quarreled with Chase, said Chase "lacked credibility" as a movement leader.

Officials from the San Diego chapter of the American Friends Service Committee, a Quaker-based immigrants-rights group that has criticized the Minuteman Project as vigilantes who have complicated ---- and not helped ---- border problems, could not be reached for comment.

Early Monday, an unidentified female answering Chase's telephone answering machine said Chase's only statement would be, "Character counts. And character, or the lack of it, is the reason that Mr. Chase is cutting ties to both Gilchrist and Simcox."
(snip/...)

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2005/06/21/news/top_stories/62005200337.txt

[AlphaCentauri]

11. Anti-immigrant Vigilante Groups Spreading

Jul 18 - Spurred by April’s protests along the Arizona-Mexico border by a group of people taking the country’s anti-immigrant laws into their own hands, new self-appointed border guard efforts are popping up across the country.

As reported by The NewStandard earlier this year, volunteers who blamed immigrants for the nation’s social ills organized border patrols along the US-Mexico border. Many of the members of the Minuteman Project expressed nativist leanings and several carried firearms as they watched the border for illegally crossing immigrants and harnessed media attention to challenge the government’s handling of immigration issues.

http://newstandardnews.net/content/?action=show_item&itemid=2104

[Moderator]

14. kick

[NNN0LHI]

15. Anti-immigration drive spreading

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-immi18.html

MORRISTOWN, Tenn. -- A volunteer movement that vows to guard America from a wave of illegal immigration has spread from the dusty U.S.-Mexican border to the hollows of Appalachia.

At least 40 anti-immigration groups have popped up, inspired by the Minuteman Project that rallied hundreds this year to patrol the Mexican border in Arizona.

''It's like O'Leary's cow has kicked over the lantern. The fire has just started now,'' said Carl ''Two Feathers'' Whitaker, referring to the Great Chicago Fire. Whitaker runs the Tennessee Volunteer Minutemen, aimed at exposing those who employ illegals.

Critics call the movement vigilantism, and some sense a hatred similar to the Ku Klux Klan's.

[coloradodem2005]

16. Illegal Imigration is a bad thing.

But this level of vigilanteism takes it too far.

[liberal N proud]

21. Yup!

[drfresh]

58. Maybe if the Feds did something besides...

sitting on their bums, they wouldn't feel the need to be vigilantes. This administration is doing nothing to stop illegal immigration and the states aren't doing much either.

[getmeouttahere]

17. there was a time.....

when these types of people, if found to be even advocating use of force, would be rounded up. But the part I find most interesting about all of this is that these vigilantes actually think they are going to solve our problems by doing this.

[Mari333]

18. oy, guys in the woods shooting pine trees

we already have the michigan militia here, now its spreading...just what we all need, more guys in the woods with large guns..say, why arent any of them ENLISTING?

[maquisard]

22. Because Iraqis shoot back

It's just not as much fun when your opponents aren't unarmed and starving.

[guruoo]

25. Just think, if libs did this

they'd call it 'terrorist training camp'

[mbperrin]

19. Too bad the tribes in the Americas didn't have the same

attitudes back when, eh?

After all, the Europeans who came here certainly had valid work permits issued by the governing local authorities, right?

Right?

:crickets:

[sled]

23. Better late than never???

"The fire has just started now," said Carl "Two Feathers" Whitaker, an American Indian activist and perennial gubernatorial candidate who runs the Tennessee Volunteer Minutemen, aimed at exposing those who employ illegals.

[Zorra]

49. The US is being re-colonized?

Interesting concept.

[mbperrin]

51. That's why the Statue of Liberty refers to "wretched refuse"

and so on, never once mentions H1-B employment visas.

Seems to me we either have to say the way we came here is OK, and therefore OK for others;

or the way we came here is not OK, and so we should leave.

Anything else has the reek of hypocrisy for economic gain and the desire to close the door of opportunity on people who want to do what we did for the same reasons we did.

Not nice.

[Zorra]

52. Question:

Are you willing to give your job to an undocumented worker, or an "overseas" worker, if that worker makes an agreement with your boss to work longer hours for lower wages, no overtime, and no benefits, or, are you willing to re-negotiate the terms of your employment to undercut the terms offered the undocumented worker?

Are you willing to give MY job to an undocumented worker if that worker makes an agreement with my boss to work longer hours for lower wages, no overtime, and no benefits?

Bottom line: This is what happens when you allow unfair labor competition.

[barb162]

53. bravo

[primavera]

54. Depends on the job

In a way, I already have, as have you and everyone else here. I've chosen not to grow my own produce and instead purchase it at a grocery store. For me to produce all of my own food would surely be a full-time job for me, so I would not be able to work my current job at which I make considerably more than the roughly $200/month it costs me to buy groceries at a store. It is consequently more cost effective for me to pay $200/month to have somebody else produce my food for me and be able to work a different job. I have therefore "given up" my job as a farm worker and sought employment in another field I find more satisfying and remunerative, as, in all likelihood, have you (unless you actually are a farmer and produce all of your own food).

So why do you stand for this intolerable situation in which other workers are producing food stuffs at prices lower than what it would cost you to produce them yourself? Why don't you make your own clothes and books and furniture and automobiles? Obviously, because you would rather pay somebody else to do those things for you, thus enabling you to devote your time to whatever it is that you do do for a living. What's wrong with that? That's the basis of how every economy on earth functions and there's nothing wrong with it.

If it doesn't bother you that other people produce goods and services which you purchase, then why does it matter who produces them? What matters is not who produces service A or good B, but that US workers have opportunities to produce service C and good D which they can trade for A and B, preferably at an advantageous rate of trade. So, if you can build a computer in a week and trade it for 6 months worth of food, you're not only better off, you're substantially better off, even though you are not producing A and B yourself.

This is what always rankles me about the anti-immigrant argument: you're all so hot and bothered that immigrants are making $10/hr picking asparagus, yet it doesn't seem to bother you that support for the kind of educational system that would generate highly skilled US workers is plummeting, leaving US workers working in places like MalWart for $5/hr. And the person you point the finger at in blame is not the increasingly wealthy aristocracy who are pushing for school vouchers and every opportunity possible to ensure that their kids stay in priviledged Ivy League schools while the rest of the population can just eat cake, no, you point the finger at some poor immigrant schmuck making $10/hr picking fruit! You want to think about this?

[Zorra]

57. This is pure bullshit, please don't put words in my/our mouth(s).

This is all so way out in left field:

"This is what always rankles me about the anti-immigrant argument: you're all so hot and bothered that immigrants are making $10/hr picking asparagus, yet it doesn't seem to bother you that support for the kind of educational system that would generate highly skilled US workers is plummeting, leaving US workers working in places like MalWart for $5/hr. And the person you point the finger at in blame is not the increasingly wealthy aristocracy who are pushing for school vouchers and every opportunity possible to ensure that their kids stay in priviledged Ivy League schools while the rest of the population can just eat cake, no, you point the finger at some poor immigrant schmuck making $10/hr picking fruit! You want to think about this?"

I am probably as anti-"aristocracy" as it gets, and a proponent of free or subsidized higher education, and you have absolutely no basis for this this very groundless assumption/accusation. And two wrongs do not make a right.

"So why do you stand for this intolerable situation in which other workers are producing food stuffs at prices lower than what it would cost you to produce them yourself? Why don't you make your own clothes and books and furniture and automobiles? Obviously, because you would rather pay somebody else to do those things for you, thus enabling you to devote your time to whatever it is that you do do for a living. What's wrong with that? That's the basis of how every economy on earth functions and there's nothing wrong with it."

So, I take it that you find sweatshop labor, and less than poverty level wages acceptable, as long as you can get your goods at low, low Mal-Wart prices, and that you don't have to worry because you have the type of job that will not be subject to unfair labor competition anytime soon?

As you must be aware, a very large number of our jobs have been outsourced to other countries, People are getting laid off by the thousands, and job growth is, and has been, negligible. Most of the jobs that have come into being in the last 4+ years have been low paying service jobs. At the same time, undocumented immigrant laborers are entering and staying in the US at a rate of roughly 1,000,000 persons per year.

The outsourced jobs are never coming back, we are losing jobs on a daily basis, few new jobs are created (in the US that is), more and more American citizens are out of work and/or accepting less lucrative employment because they cannot find work in their field, and a million new workers, who are willing to work for sub-standard wages, are being introduced into the labor market each year.

Do the math. Then extrapolate into the future, and you get less than zero.

Which is exactly what Bu*h has in mind as the destiny of the American worker.

[primavera]

64. Not bullshit, basic econ 101

Sorry, this is probably too complex an issue to get into in a short time. Let me say that I do agree with you on many points, but it's more complicated.

My point was that we all rely upon others to produce goods and services for us, so what does it matter whether the person providing those goods and services is a US worker or an immigrant? However, it goes without saying that, for the econ model to work, US workers being displaced from low paying jobs need to be able to secure other, hopefully better jobs. For that to take place, though, someone's got to cover the cost of labor mobility, for workers to make the transition from one job to another (again hopefully better) job. If, in fact, that transition is taking place smoothly and US workers formerly working as fruit pickers are now in medical school or law school or are working as foremen or supervisors, then great, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. That said, I do not believe that such a rosy scenario is in fact taking place and I consequently do agree with you that we have some labor problems we need to sort out.

I also think the trade balance is something we need to pay attention to. Although I perceive no imperative that we produce our own tomotaoes, for instance, if we aren't exporting enough goods and services to pay for the tomatoes we're importing, then we have a problem. My point, though, is that we don't necessarily have to achieve a healthy economy and trade balance by growing tomatoes - there are other things we can do which are more rewarding. Did you know that 60% of our exports are not in goods but in services? We provide consulting services on everything from financial services to insurance, to development, to legal services, arbitration, medical technology, education and training, marketing, you name it, we're exporting the service to somebody - and, I might add, getting paid rather more for doing so than we would be were we simply selling a crate of tomatoes. My point is, we don't necessarily have to grow tomatoes in order to balance trade, nor should we try, as there are better ways of investing ones time and money than growing tomatoes which will always be a low value added item.

I also agree that outsourcing is a very serious problem indeed and one, I would argue, which is far more costly to the economy than immigration. While immigrants are here in the US, they pay taxes and consume goods and services, which adds jobs and revenues to the economy, causing it to grow. Outsourced jobs, on the other hand, result in taxes being paid to a foreign government, goods and services being consumed in the foreign state, jobs being added in the foreign state, all of the benefits go to the foreign state and all we get in return is the cheaper goods and/or services. As a result, our economy shrinks and the monies we spend on outsourced goods and services are essentially lost without getting anything back in return, it's deficit spending in other words. So I'm behind you 100% that outsourcing is a major problem. But outsourcing and immigration are two very different things economically.

So yeah, I'm the first to agree with you that we've got problems with our economy, the question is what are we going to do to fix them? Well, imho, outsourcing is one hell of a good place to start and fixing that problem, I would argue, would do a whole lot more to cure the ails of the economy than going after immigrants would. I would also urge investing in education, so that, if a US worker loses a job as a farmhand, s/he has the support needed to get a better job.

I do hear what you're saying, and I understand it can make intuitive sense when witnessing low paying jobs being lost to try to recapture them. But ask yourself, should our focus really be on recapturing low paying jobs, or should it be on creating higher paying jobs? Which job would you rather have, a white collar job or a blue collar job?

I also am far more sympathetic than you probably imagine to the hardships of our market economy and, personally, I would love to see us move in a direction more akin to the social democratic, regulated economies of Europe, where wages can be set not by capricious market forces, but by policy. But that's part of a much, much, much bigger picture of how a society economically structured. If you raise wages for prodcution jobs (and, please, read my lips, I would love to see it happen), prices for those goods and services, especially those like agriculture in which labor is the primary cost will inevitably go up proportionately, making it that much harder for low income families to afford those goods and services, effectively bringing you right back to where you started: workers have more money, but the goods and services cost just that much more, so what's really changed?

You can't fix that problem by just tackling the bottom end of the economy and across the board raising wages, that will only lead to inflation. To really fix what ails this country, you've got to go after the top and do something about the horrendous income inequality which exists in this country. You have to do something akin to what the Europeans have done and levy such heavy taxes on the uppermost income brackets that the obscene salaries we pay CEOs in this country cease to be an incentive: what's the point in earning $50 million a year if the government's just going to take 99% of it back in taxes? Which is why CEOs in Europe earn a few hundred thousand dollars a year instead of tens of millions a year like they do here, where the richest 2% of the economy possesses 80% of the country's total wealth. Europe has taken an active interventionist approach to redistributing wealth, giving them the monies they need for things like education and social services programs, and, again, I'm with you all the way, in my heart of hearts, I believe they're doing it the right way and we're doing it the wrong way and I would give anything to see us move more in the direction Europe's taken. Unfortunately, in this country, that's probably not going to happen in our lifetimes. And, in the meantime, immigration is small potatoes, it's nothing, shit, less than nothing, next to the bigger issues we face.

[QC]

65. OK, let's put this in practical terms, then.

Let's talk about your actual job. You know, your livelihood. The thing you do that enables you to buy groceries, pay rent, etc., without which you would be out on the streets.

Would you be willing to give your graduate assistantship to one of the millions of young scholars all over the world who are at least as bright and ambitious as you but willing to do the work for much less? After all, it doesn't matter who's leading those discussion sections, taking roll in the gigantolectures, doing professors' basic research for them, etc. as long as someone is, right? And if the university can get two other people for what you are costing, then that maximizes efficiency.

I think this is what Zorra was getting at. Immigration discussions here at DU tend to be characterized by people fortunate enough to have no reason to fear job competition quoting Emma Lazarus and slinging accusations of racism at those who do fear losing their jobs. The truth is, people in fields like construction, meat packing, and landscaping have been displaced by cheaper labor. It actually happens. And for those people, no Econ 101 lecture will change that reality.

[primavera]

67. It happens every day

Universities are finding that they can hire recent PhDs for $1,000 to teach a class instead of having to pay a tenured faculty member $80K plus benefits. You asked what I do for a living, well, I work as a migration policy analyst for a think tank in DC and have had to change jobs numerous times when grants have expired and funding ran short. It sucks, no argument, that's what a market economy is, and it's exactly why I hate the market economy. Unfortunately, changing those ills can't be accomplished just by waving a magic wand, they are part and parcel of the economic system we have chosen in our folly to embrace so wholeheartedly.

[Zorra]

68. Yes, thank you, that is it, in a nutshell.

At one time in my life, I was in circumstances where I worked as a contract laborer in agriculture and saw firsthand the effects of unfair labor competition on workers.

I was also married to an economist for a number of years after that.;-)

[primavera]

73. And yet you did not remain an agricultural worker

Why not, if it's such a fabulous job? Maybe you found other work you liked better and which paid more, perhaps? Would you want to go back to agricultural work now? So why are you so eager to see American workers go into those jobs? Why aren't you mounting the barricades trying to get US workers into more skilled, better paid jobs with better working conditions? Why is the focus of your indignation that somebody else is doing a crappy job you yourself chose to leave?

And if you were married to an economist, then you should know very well that economic issues are all interconnected - you can't make a change without creating ripples. Clamping down on migrant labor would have a great many repercussions. Whether those repercussions are worth weathering for the sake of achieving tighter immigration control is a question on which reasonable people can differ, but it's definitely not as simple as your posts suggest.

[mbperrin]

74. Hmmm...how many folks are wading across that have three

degrees, 10 years experience, 6 teaching certificates, and 6 specialty certificates, I wonder?

The Texas Legislature is doing just fine on cutting my benefits, retirement, medical and pay, thanks. Immigrants don't have a bloody thing to do with it.

They don't seem to be snapping up those brain surgeon jobs, either...

[Gormy Cuss]

20. Vigilantes for certain

Critics call the movement vigilantism, and some sense a hatred similar to the Ku Klux Klan's.

Ya think?

[guruoo]

28. Some yes, some no, but..

this sort of activity does tend to attract
the nutcases. So far it appears their leaders
are making some effort to weed out
the zenophobic element.
Still, we do need to keep a close eye on it.

[Gormy Cuss]

31. What troubles me is the categorization as "anti-immigration"

which implies against ALL immigration, and that's flat out xenophobic. I also fear that it's too easy for racists to use this as a legitimate platform for harassing Latinos and Asians.

I wish our government would either enforce the laws on the books or change them to suit current needs. Reagan signed the alleged cure-all bill for illegal immigration in 1986. As far as I can tell, it created a new bureaucratic certification process for law abiding employers and their employees and did nada to change the level of illegal immigrant employment.
It's a Republican law, let's call them on the carpet over it.

[primavera]

77. IRCA exempted key industries

The '86 Immigration Reform and Control Act was supposed to be this revolutionary thing in that, for the first time in history, it held employers accountable for hiring illegal immigrants. But the problem was, the industries most involved in hiring illegal workers, such as agriculture, meat-packing, garment industry, and construction, all lobbied for and won special exemptions for themselves from the employer sanctions provisions of IRCA. Welcome to America, home of the best government money can buy...

[guruoo]

24. Good for them

Busco is against these 'minutemen' groups because
they hinder the flow of cheap labor to his corporate cronies.

[Bridget Burke]

26. If you read the whole article, the racism is evident.

Guatemala native Noel Montepeque, who owns a company that provides a variety of blue-collar jobs to Hispanics, said the tone has changed since the first migrant farm workers passed through the area in the 1990s.

"Now they are getting afraid of the many Hispanic folks coming in," Montepeque said. "And we are coming to stay."

Some areas see "Hispanics" as the problem, whatever their legal status.

Let the Minutemen protest the businesses that hire undocumented workers.

[guruoo]

29. The bottom line

<<Let the Minutemen protest the businesses that hire undocumented workers.>>

[guruoo]

30. Story: Republicans bash Bush on migrant 'amnesty'

6/29:
'Republican Rep. Tom Tancredo (Colo.) yesterday chastised President Bush for misleading voters about his intended protection of unauthorized immigrants as House Republicans gear up for an internal brawl over immigration reform.'

More:
http://www.thehill.com/thehill/export/TheHill/News/Frontpage/062905/tancredo.html

[barb162]

33. these groups are popping up because Bush refuses to put the money

into INS, border patrol, etc. Last I read (within the last year or so) about 80% of the people want illegal immigration stopped and Bush seemingly doesn't give a shit. If there were jobs being created in this country at a good pace, these groups wouldn't be popping up, I suspect. But people are getting mad as they lose their jobs and are being replaced by outsourcing or illegal immigrants or, or, or and can't find work month after month after month.

Bush ("we've turned the corner") refuses to deal with the economic situation that many Americans are falling down the ladder and the rage this is causing

[Bridget Burke]

40. None of the vigilantes interviewed mentioned job concerns.

They are just doing their patriotic duty, helping Homeland Security.

And some anti-Hispanic & anti-Immigrant statements were mentioned--with no concern about legal status.

[MisterP]

44. SPLCenter article here:

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/news/item.jsp?aid=15

[MrTriumph]

46. I don't need a study- I know the negative impact of Illegal immigration.

DUers-

Employers exploit illegal immigrants with dangerous working conditions and low wages. Of course employers often provide shameful overcrowded housing, but it does allow illegals to send money home where those American dollars have tremendous buying power. I know this system. I have seen it.

And please take this into consideration. We have had a building boom in Texas for 6-7 years. But amazingly wages have hardly gone up as illegals have flooded the pool of potential workers. What other industry has gone through a sustained boom, yet wages stay flat?

It's a raw deal all the way around except for the employers. It is time Mexicans reformed their economy to create more decent jobs. It is time we stopped supporting Mexico's economic order by allowing illegal Mexicans to come here.

[Bridget Burke]

50. Yes, let's hope for another revolution in Mexico

That would be #3. You'll see lots more people flooding over the border.

Let the Minutemen know which builders hire undocumented workers. Then help them picket their places of business.

[NNguyenMD]

55. I have ZERO issue with anyone who wants to go after an employer

who uses illegal immigrants, as far as I'm concerned they are the root of the immigration problem not the people who cross the border daily out of necessity. Our low-wage/max profit corporate culture saw to it that undocumented workers become a crucial part of a cheap service economy.

[Norquist Nemesis]

70. Those employers are absolutely at the root of it

They are the ones who make the hiring/firing decisions and the responsibility should be laid squarely at their feet.

Not too long ago I saw a newspiece on illegal immigration spreading throughout the country in parts that are not on everyone's radar. They were interviewing a couple of small business owners located in the Northwest (IIRC). The owners were complaining that they knew so-and-so down the street were using illegals; then they were whining that they've had to lower their prices so much they're barely making any profit and it's all the fault of the guy down the street who hired the illegals.

I almost shouted at the TV: REPORT THEM! That's what I don't get! Why don't they report them? If they know of illegal hiring activity and don't report it, they are just as culpable, IMO.

Another part of the low wage/max-profit you mention is a ready supply. At this point, I'm not convinced the jobs are even being offered to American citizens. I mean, when you have a need for labor, who do you ask first? Your current employees, of course! So, when your labor pool has a hardworking individuals willing to work for a price that increases your profit margin, you will ask that individual if he/she knows someone to fill the need. Voila! Now you have two, three, four, five, etc.

[barb162]

82. reporting them doesn't do very much, if anything, as the INS is so

overwhelmed they don't come except for the most egregious/largest cases. Plus lord and master chief pug has made himself quite well known for wanting this to happen DESPITE the laws on the books.

[okieinpain]

59. this is so funny, NPR had a story yesterday talking about all of the

companies in cali, selling cars and insurance to illegals. they also brought up that companies are gearing other things for them like homes, and other things that illegals aren't suppose to have.

[Bridget Burke]

62. How can it be both ways?

According to some: The undocumented work so cheaply because they live packed into small apartments. And they have no cars; or, if they do, they are those "uninsured" motorists who cost all of us money.

But: They are living in better places. And buying cars & insurance. They might start asking for more money--even benefits. Is this bad?

Is there a link to the NPR story? What other things are illegals not "suppose to have"?

[barb162]

84. Why can't it be both ways? Some are living one way and some

are living in other ways.

[okieinpain]

89. sorry it took so long, here is the npr link.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4759664

[bemildred]

63. Wars on abstract nouns are so much more fun than real work. nt

[leesa]

88. How stupid! Why not attack the corporations that hire them. That's why

they are here.