Iran behind gassing of Kurds, Shiite massacre: Saddam lawyer

[Barrett808]

BERLIN (AFP) - A lawyer set to defend Saddam Hussein said Iran and not the deposed Iraqi leader was to blame for massacres among the country's Kurdish and Shiite communities.

Outlining his defense strategy for Saddam in the Tageszeitung newspaper, Jordanian attorney Issam Ghazzawi said his team would prove that Tehran was behind the gassing of some 5,000 Kurdish villagers in 1988.

"We have evidence, papers, that the Pentagon produced showing that Iraq did not possess the poison gas in question at that point in time. Iran is the one responsible for the Kurds," he said Tuesday.

Asked about the mass murder of Shiites in southern Iraq after the 1991 Gulf war, Ghazzawi said the victims were not civilians but Iraqi troops gunned down by Iranians.

"That is another story where Tehran must accept responsibility. After what you call 'Operation Desert Storm', 1.5 million Iranians came to southern Iraq.

"The dead in the mass graves are actually Iraqi soldiers. You could see that in the images on television: skeletons that were carrying their Iraqi papers. And a few innocents. There are unfortunately always a few innocents who die in war."

(more)

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050719/wl_mideast_afp/iraqjusticesaddamlawyeriran

[gratuitous]

1. SEE what happens when you give a guy a lawyer?

All of a sudden you have to provide evidence and proof and all that messy stuff. So much easier to just make a categorical declaration and be done with it. Why, oh why can't we just have a dictatorship? It would all be so much easier!

[Fleshdancer]

28. lol! now that was funny. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Gee so we are going to finally know who did what?

mind you there have been many a rumors that the Iranians did it... but here is the trick, if that is the case... who provided them with the WMDs? I am not surprised by the defense by the way... good lawyer

[Zynx]

3. This has always been an issue. Iraq never had any cyanide.

The bodies in that Kurdish village showed symptoms consistant with cyanide.

[Zhade]

41. Don't tell that to some of the people here.

Facts get in the way of their insistence that they know the whole story.

[navvet]

4. Sure Iran did!

And Hitler did not invade Poland in September 39 either.

Jeesh!

[Roland99]

43. Umm...there's plenty of evidence to support him

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/war/docs/3203/appb.pdf


Here's the main page for that document:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/war/docs/3203/

[geek tragedy]

44. That report dates from 1990 and isn't backed by any independent research

Subsequent investigations have provided a veritable mountain of evidence to show that Iraqi use of chemical weapons against the Kurds occurred regularly.

[Roland99]

47. Why does the date of that report matter?

And, do you have links that debunk its findings?

[geek tragedy]

49. Because old information based on mere speculation is inferior

to information based on more recent investigations and actual research.

Just google: gas halabja anfal hrw gosden

and you'll get plenty

[Roland99]

50. You see, I have a big problem with stuff like this:

http://www.answers.com/topic/halabja-poison-gas-attack

In a January 31, 2003 New York Times <2> (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F60816FC3D5C0C728FDDA80894DB404482) opinion piece, Pelletiere summarized the DIA's findings and noted that because of the DIA's conclusion there was not sufficient evidence to definitively determine whether Iraq or Iran was responsible. Pelletiere also felt that the administration of George W. Bush was not being forthright when squarely placing blame on Iraq, since it contradicted the conclusion of the DIA study. However the DIA's final position on the attack was in fact much less certain than this preliminary report suggests, with its final conclusions, in June 2003, asserting just that there was insufficient evidence, but concluding that "Iraq ..used chemical weapons against Kurdish civilians in 1988" <3> (http://www.iraqwatch.org/government/US/Pentagon/us-dod-iraqchemreport-060703.htm). The CIA altered its position radically in the late 1990s and cited Halabja frequently in its evidence of WMD before the 2003 invasion <4>

Rather convenient given the PNAC's influence in various areas in the late 90s and, of course, their total coverage of foreign policy positions since the Propagandist took office.

[geek tragedy]

51. The Repuke liars from 1988-1990 and the Repuke liars from 2000-2003

cancel each other out.

However, every single credible human rights organization is convinced that Saddam gassed Halabja. The evidence--including traces of a a mixture of nerve gas and mustard gas at other sites, medical investgations, documentary evidence, eyewitness accounts, common sense--everything points at Iraq.

Btw, none of the people who wrote the DIA report have a medical or scientific background.

[geek tragedy]

65. Btw, the FAS now rejects the theory that Iran gassed Halabja and is 100%

behind the idea that Saddam did it:

http://www.google.com/search?as_q=halabja+saddam+gas&num=10&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=fas.org&safe=images

[Roland99]

66. Notice how most of that change of mind comes from the US State Dept?

And when it was beneficial to paint Saddam as the bad guy?

[geek tragedy]

67. Or when it was no longer US policy to cover up his crimes.

The human rights community was screaming this stuff for years before the wingnuts finally acknowledged it.

Not everything used as propaganda is false.

[LynnTheDem]

54. A few more reports;

The US State Department found both sides were using chemical weapons.

"There are indications that Iran may also have used chemical artillery shells in this fighting," spokesman Charles Redman told the press a week after the attack. "We call on Iran and Iraq to desist immediately from the use of any chemical weapons."

On May 3, 1990, referring to yet another study, "A Defense Department reconstruction of the final stages of the Iran-Iraq war has assembled what analysts say is conclusive intelligence that one of the worst civilian massacres of the war, in the Iraqi Kurdish city of Halabja, was caused by "repeated chemical bombardments from both belligerent armies." "
Washington Post (May 3, 1990)
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0218,trilling,34389,1.html

The US government itself later confirmed the fact that both sides had used gas and that, in all likelihood, Iranian gas killed the Kurds.

A Pentagon report, ‘Iraqi Power and U.S. Security in the Middle East’ published in 1990 states (Chapter 5): “In March 1988, the Kurds at Halabjah were bombarded with chemical weapons, producing a great many deaths. Photographs of the Kurdish victims were widely disseminated in the international media. Iraq was blamed for the Halabjah attack, even though it was subsequently brought out that Iran too had used chemicals in this operation, and it seemed likely that it was the Iranian bombardment that had actually killed the Kurds.”
-United Nations: No Proof Saddam Gassed the Kurds
http://www.polyconomics.com/searchbase/11-18-98.html

The Pentagon's USAWC and US Marine Corps report concluded Iran gassed the Kurds at Halbjah, not Iraq.

Lessons Learned: The Iran-Iraq War
by Dr. Stephen Pelletiere and Lieutenant Colonel Douglas Johnson
U.S. Army War College Strategic Studies Institute

"The great majority of the victims seen by reporters and other
observers who attended the scene were blue in their extremities. That means that they were killed by a blood agent, probably either cyanogen chloride or hydrogen cyanide. Iraq never used and lacked any capacity to produce these chemicals. But the Iranians did deploy them. Therefore the Iranians killed the Kurds."

US Marine Corps document FMFRP 3

"Blood agents were allegedly responsible for the most infamous use of chemicals in the war—the killing of Kurds at Halabjah. Since the Iraqis have no history of using these two agents—and the Iranians do—we conclude that the Iranians perpetrated this attack."
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/war/docs/3203/

The DIA's report concluded Iran had gassed the Kurds & Iranians of Halabjah;

Immediately after the battle the United States Defense Intelligence Agency investigated and produced a classified report, which it circulated within the intelligence community on a need-to-know basis. That study asserted that it was Iranian gas that killed the Kurds, not Iraqi gas.

The agency did find that each side used gas against the other in the battle around Halabja. The condition of the dead Kurds' bodies, however, indicated they had been killed with a blood agent - that is, a cyanide-based gas -which Iran was known to use. The Iraqis, who are thought to have used mustard gas in the battle, are not known to have possessed blood agents at the time.

http://truthout.org/docs_02/020303C.htm

The CIA's report mentions "hundreds" killed, not "5000" and against the Iranians primarily w Kurds caught in the cross-fire. This report is still on the US government CIA website.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd/Iraq_Oct_2002.htm

[The Magistrate]

60. One Thing Needs To Be Remembered Here, Ma'am

This report was produced at a time when Hussein still enjoyed considerable U.S. support. This has always left me most suspicious this report is a white-wash. The charge is based apparently on claimed observation, not autopsy findings. Cyanide gasses are not new wrinkles, by the way, but featured back in the Great War.

[mtnester]

64. Funny how this very report that was prepared because he was

friendly to us at the time, could now very well come back to be his defense against our charges. Ironic would be a fabulous word to use in this instance.

[Yupster]

58. Speaking of Hitler, it reminds me of

Katyn Wood.

When Germany invaded Russia, they uncovered mass graves with 10,000 Polish officers shot in the head. They immediately called the world press to show Stalin's massacre.

The Soviets blamed Hitler for doing the killings and blaming them.

The battle was fought in the world's press until about 10 years ago when Soviet records were released showing that they did indeed do the killings. An apology to Poland followed.

So in this case, who was the Hitler and who was the Stalin?

[navvet]

5. Lawyers like these

only validate Shakespeare.

[Maple]

6. It's been known for years

that it was the Iranians, but it worked as a great propaganda point for invading Iraq.

If Iran is the next country to be invaded, we'll suddenly 'discover' it was them after all that did the gassing.

[geek tragedy]

7. Same old bullshit Saddam's Reaganite defenders have been peddling

for over a decade.

The ONLY source of analysis concluding that Saddam didn't gas the Kurds was from Ronnie and Poppy's Republican administrations when he was a Republican ally.

The blue lips stuff is also a distractor, and here's why:

1. They say that nerve gas doesn't chemically turn your lips blue. That is technically true.

2. HOWEVER, nerve gas kills by inducing respiratory failure.

3. Guess what one of the signs of respiratory failure is? That's right: blue lips.

Every single credible and legitimate human rights organization on the planet flatly rejects this bullshit.

[StrafingMoose]

11. Then you're saying...

They were making "scholar" level propaganda (definitely didn't make the front pages of all the Times for example) to save Saddam's ass and theirs, and blame the Iranians.

But Reagan also helped the Iranians in the 80-88 war, right?

[geek tragedy]

14. Ollie North did. The US was a lot more helpful to Saddam.

The Reagan and Poppy Bush administrations did everything they could to minimize Saddam's atrocities while he was useful to them.

[StrafingMoose]

16. Thx

[ngGale]

61. Saddam was our friend at that time, you've seen the pics ...

of Rummy shaking Saddam's hand - we also gave him a metal. I remember from my research that the helicopter's used were ours, US made. Saddam can screw over the Bush clan.

Ghazzawi said he would call US President George W. Bush as a witness during Saddam's trial, a date for which has not yet been set.

Saddam said he would tell everything if given the chance. That's why we won't turn him over to the international court. He knows too much!
I'm not saying Saddam's not a dog, but our dogs have fleas from that period.

[leesa]

45. It's NOT blue lips, cyanide turns your skin blue. It's very distinctive

Also, survivors reported an almond smell which is characteristic of cyanide.

[tocqueville]

8. US Army War College: NO PROOF SADDAM GASSED THE KURDS

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/helms.html

It appears that in seeking to punish Iraq, the Congress was influenced by another incident that occurred five months earlier in another Iraqi-Kurdish city, Halabjah. In March 1988, the Kurds at Halabjah were bombarded with chemical weapons, producing a great many deaths. Photographs of them Kurdish victims were widely disseminated in the international media. Iraq was blamed for the Halabjah attack, even though it was subsequently brought out that Iran too had used chemicals in this operation, and it seemed likely that it was the Iranian bombardment that had actually killed the Kurds.

Thus, in our view, the Congress acted more on the basis of emotionalism than factual information, and without sufficient thought for the adverse diplomatic effects of its action. As a result of the outcome of the Iran-Iraq War, Iraq is now the most powerful state in the Persian Gulf, an area in which we have vital interests. To maintain an uninterrupted flow of oil from the Gulf to the West, we need to develop good working relations with all of the Gulf states, and particularly with Iraq, the strongest.

[geek tragedy]

9. That report was written by Reaganite backenders. They provided

a bullshit analysis at the time, and they're covering their own asses with further bullshit now.

That report is the very definition of "fixing intelligence around foreign policy goals"--the authors are clearly pushing for better relations with Saddam.

[tocqueville]

17. But this below is new :

http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/GaseousLies.htm

it's obvious that the story is not clear. It doesn't change anything to the fact that Saddam is a war criminal, but facts should be established...

[geek tragedy]

19. That War College report was written by people friendly to Saddam

in the Poppy Bush administration:

"Thus, in our view, the Congress acted more on the basis of emotionalism than factual information, and without sufficient thought for the adverse diplomatic effects of its action. As a result of the outcome of the Iran-Iraq War, Iraq is now the most powerful state in the Persian Gulf, an area in which we have vital interests. To maintain an uninterrupted flow of oil from the Gulf to the West, we need to develop good working relations with all of the Gulf states, and particularly with Iraq, the strongest."

Now, what do you think was more important to Poppy Bush's advisors: the truth and human rights, or oil?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

31. We supplied arms and information to both sides during that war....

...if you studied a little history, you might know that.

Why? Precisely because of the oil.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

29. Oh give it a break....we supplied arms to BOTH Iran and Iraq.

[evermind]

42. You can hardly compare the two

the supplying of Iraq was on a large scale and subsidized by public money (via agricultural loan guarantees for dual-use tech). More on the British side, but I remember reading (in '91-ish) about a 1989 arms fair in Baghdad in which a scale replica of the Supergun was on show, rumoured to have been attended by Mark Thatcher, which gives some idea of how publicly this was done.

Supply to Iran on the other hand was done covertly and seems to have been small scale and intended to build a negotiating position to get hostages released (and, I guess, fund Contras into the bargain)

Saddam enjoyed friendly relations and support from Reagan's America during the 80's which Iran most certainly did not (which is why the Iran side of Iran Contra was thought scandalous back then).

So it seems to me (I'm no expert so correct me if I've erred) the Reagan/Bush team had every reason to skew intelligence in order to pin the blame anywhere but on Saddam.

That doesn't mean Saddam didn't do it, but it is a seriously possible explanation of bogus internal US reports exculpating him.

[evermind]

52. Oops! That last sentence should read "mean Saddam did it"

too tired to post coherently apparently.. Sorry.

[Barrett808]

57. But we only violated nonproliferation laws with Iraq

And fraudulently financed some $5 billion in arms purchases through BNL Atlanta. These purchases included all the makings of ballistic missiles.

[Barrett808]

23. Anybody have a link to the Poppy Bush DIA report that pinned it on Iran?

That was some serious disinformation.

[geek tragedy]

24. It's been linked to a couple of times already. You're right:

a DIA report from the Poppy Bush administration, whose members had been Saddam's biggest fans in 1988, is awfully damn thin evidence compared to the evidence that Saddam did gas the Kurds.

[StrafingMoose]

25. One thing I wonder is..

who pushed both nations to use such weapons? I mean, they both had airforce, arty, armour they didn't need to clear foliage like USA "had to" in Vietnam, what was the point?

Give away propaganda points ? :\

[geek tragedy]

26. They didn't need to be pushed.

Saddam is a ruthless murderer who'll do anything to get what he wants.

Chemical weapons are a terror weapon on the battlefield and even moreso against civilians.

[StrafingMoose]

27. Agreed, but...

I think Saddam was juuuuust smart enough to know that "Use of CW = Propaganda points for the West"

Oh well...

I also read an interview with Tariq Aziz (for what's its worth) saying that the Kurds killed by Iraqis were killed via conventional artillery or bombings, by mistake. But in the same interview he went on to say that Saddam effectively crushed the early 90s rebelion with no specific encouragement from anyone else but him - of course his staff executed the deeds...

[geek tragedy]

30. Saddam was a tool of the West in the 1980's--he knew Ronnie Raygun

and Poppy Bush would help him cover up his crimes so long as he kept the oil flowing.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

35. The Shah of Iran was a "tool of the West", too, until the fundie...

...Islamics took over.

What's your point?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

34. And Iran would never have used such weapons?? Incredible....

...and your comment that "chemical weapons are a terror weapon on the battlefield" is nonsense.

Ask any current military strategist and/or tactician, and they will tell you that chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons are to be thought of as just any other weapon in a nation's arsenal.

[MattSWin]

39. Why would Iran....

Mass murder people who supported them? The Patriotic Union of Kurdistan HQ was hit in the bombings and they were one of Iran's biggest allies in Kurdistan.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

32. LOL. Amazing. Bush was CIA all the way....the DIA types didn't like...

...the CIA, and vice versa. The DIA wouldn't have stooped to falsifying a report just to make Poppy happy.

[KittyWampus]

10. Saddam Has A Point. In Halabja, The Gas Found Was Of Type Iran Used

how did that go down?

Well, Iranians attacked Halabja because they thought Iraqis were there.

They then went in and found only inhabitants.

Iraq approached Halabja later that day because they though Iranians were there. They found residents dead and reported it.

What is the common thread between these two attacks on Halabja on same day?

America was giving satellite info to both Iraq and Iran.

It's not hard to imagine that dark actors in the US set the whole thing up.

[geek tragedy]

12. They didn't find cyanide there. They found people with blue lips

which certain liars have been claiming couldn't have been the result of a nerve gas attack.

The fact is that blue lips can be a sign of either a cyanide attack or of a nerve agent that kills through respiratory failure, like sarin or tubin.

[StrafingMoose]

13. So basically, the "blue lips" evidence doesn't contradict any versions?

I'm just wondering...

[geek tragedy]

15. No, it doesn't. It's a red herring. eom

[StrafingMoose]

18. Ok, then we shall let Saddam's lawyers lay their "evidences" ...

[geek tragedy]

20. By all means. A fair and open trial, with an honest examination of the

evidence is the only acceptable option.

[Yupster]

59. But isn't Saddam going on trial for killing

140 Shi-ites in a village where there was an assassination attempt against him?

That's what I read.

To pick that one, it seems they must have good evidence.

He can be convicted, sentenced and hanged for that, and that's the end of it.

[StrafingMoose]

62. Yup...

This 1st charge doesn't even mention the use of CW's. They either have a flimsy case against him on that one, or their are remains of Reaganites among the current US admin.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

37. You're always throwing around the word "liar" when other posters....

...don't agree with your well-entrenched opinions.

Why is that, exactly?

[geek tragedy]

40. Other posters are making the mistake of believing the liars.

The original lie is that nerve gas victims don't get blue lips. Pelletiere is the lying Repuke bastard who started that myth.

[leesa]

46. Please read the reports. The SKIN was blue and indicative of cyanide and

the SMELL was indicative of cyanide.

[geek tragedy]

48. Which reports indicate that people smelled cyanide?

I know they smelled mustard gas.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

36. Bingo. Dead on the mark.

[tocqueville]

21. More contradicting material

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1779.htm

[geek tragedy]

22. Same source: Stephen Pelletiere, one of Saddam's backers in

the Reagan administration.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

38. Obviously a liar...in your opinion.

[MattSWin]

33. Human Rights watch and Kurdish survivors disagree...

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1991/IRAQ913.htm#5


"According to scores of Kurdish eyewitnesses, the bombings of Halabja on March 16 and 17, 1988, were not Iraq's first use of chemical weapons on Kurdish targets. One commander with the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK) saw Iraqi warplanes drop poison gas "five or six months" earlier.

It was in the Bargloo area, 20-30 kilometers from the Iranian border, where the PUK had its headquarters at the time. Two or three commanders died five minutes later without injury. I was only about 20 yards away. I had a mask and protective clothing on.9

There are other, unconfirmed reports of chemical bombings as early as April, 1987. Credence that they took place is lent by the fact that the PUK commander in Bargloo says he was already wearing protective clothing -- and therefore knew to expect a chemical attack -- when his headquarters was hit. In another example, a Kurdish medic treated dozens of chemical weapons victims from Saosenan, a Kurdish village near the Iranian border, shortly before the attack on Halabja:

In this village, 300 or the 400 inhabitants died. They brought the injured to us. They had blisters and burns on their bodies and some had lost their eyesight. Our medical supplies were hopelessly inadequate."

[LynnTheDem]

55. "blisters & burns" = mustard.

[Emendator]

53. It's easy to propadandize

when the object of that propaganda never gets his side of the story out. If this trial is anywhere honest, we are going to find out that most of the charges against Saddam have been exagerrated. Jude Wanniski, who predicted that no WMD were found, has been saying it was really the Iranians responsible for Kurds.

I'm amazed that Saddam was captured alive. How easy it would have been to kill him and make up some story about how he evaded capture. Now the truth is going to start to come out.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

56. 15 posts. Zero citations.

I'm just saying...

[geek tragedy]

63. Here's one for starters:

http://www.phrusa.org/research/chemical_weapons/chemsaringas.html

And another:

http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/04/iraq040703.htm

The focus on Halabja is in a way unfortunate--it allows Saddams defenders to obscure the fact that it is beyond dispute that he used gas against Kurdish villagers on other occasions.

I've posted literally dozens of links on this during my time here. As I've noted, every single credible human rights body on the planet points the finger at Saddam. Why some people would choose to believe Reagan and Poppy Bush-era political analysts and economists and Saddam Hussein instead of the international human rights community and intensive forensic and medical investigations they've conducted I leave for others to determine.