U.S. Republicans introduce tough immigration bill

[maddezmom]

By Alan Elsner
8 minutes ago



WASHINGTON (Reuters) - All of the estimated 10 million to 12 million illegal aliens in the United States would have to leave the country under an immigration bill introduced on Tuesday by two conservative Republican senators.

The bill by Arizona Sen. Jon Kyl (news, bio, voting record) and Texas Sen. John Cornyn (news, bio, voting record) is a tougher alternative to a rival bipartisan bill introduced two month ago that would allow some illegals to get jobs legally and eventually gain citizenship without leaving the country.

The Kyl-Cornyn bill calls for the creation of a machine-readable, tamper-proof Social Security card that would be issued to every American in the workforce to prevent illegals from getting jobs.

It would also fund the hiring of 10,000 new Department of Homeland Security personnel dedicated to weeding illegal immigrants out of the workforce and an additional 1,000 for detecting immigration fraud.

more:http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050719/pl_nm/usa_congress_immigration_dc;_ylt=Asv5BFQuMR3E8E7H0YJ0xDQa.3QA;_

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. That will go nowhere.

For all the xenophobic ranting we hear from the freepish Right, the fact is that the economy would collapse without a continuous supply of illegal aliens who can be easily underpaid and exploited.

[54anickel]

2. Yeah, but it will get a lot of them to "rationalize" some sort of ID card

as a convoluted way to protect jobs. Nevermind that these illegals aren't taking away the jobs. :silly:

Papers?

[Robert Oak]

4. not that I am endorsing this bill...but

Your statement that illegals are not hurting wages (taking away jobs) is incorrect.

http://ksghome.harvard.edu/~GBorjas/Papers/JEL94.pdf
p. 1697 table 10.

I know this is heavy math/economics but I make a point to post irrefutable academic studies for this issue is such as "spam fest" without objective analysis.

Very thorough study and there are more showing the depression of wages
by illegals.

What is fairly interesting is the negligible effect when immigration is legal and controlled...this is basic labor economics supply/demand curve Paul Samuelson 101 theory.

I think it is important to stop fake ID's for a variety of reasons:
1. identity theft
2. keep personal data private
3. underground economy
4. national security

but I have to go read this latest to see if we have some more nazism suggested in place of solutions.

[54anickel]

8. I'll agree that wages are being effected, that's just another part of the

labor arbitrage that is global. I was referring more to the "redneck" xenophobic mentality.

As far as some national ID card stopping fake ID's, how far are you willing to go in giving up your civil liberties in the name of security? Crooks will be crooks, and this ID card system would have to carry a lot of info (as well as power) to be "uncompromisable".

We could go a long way if some of the existing "rules" as to who can and cannot demand your SS#, the privacy laws, etc. were actually enforced. This is one pet peeve of mine that I rant about on this board quite often. Phone & utility companies won't hook you up without a SS# anymore. And try to apply for a job following the advice of politely stating you'd be happy to provide your SS# if your considered a candidate for the job. HA! Good luck.

[Robert Oak]

14. Europe

Ah, yes indeedy labor arbitrage is going global big time....I'm constantly posting on it to the point it's a full time job! :)

I think we need to look at privacy laws in Europe. I don't have an answer on this frankly, it's not my focus, but know a few things.

1. You need to show your passport at about every hotel in Europe, esp. Switzerland, so valid ID is pretty much std. practice.

2. Email is considered private property (US corporate property!) and has the same privacy laws and telephone communication.

3. Your personal data is not for sale, by anyone, anywhere for marketing purposes

I think if personal data was strongly protected that would help in
not creating a police state and at the same time strong security measures on SS numbers/policy changes could stop fake IDs.

I certainly agree that social security numbers as well as "credit scores" are being seriously abused in the US and it PISSES ME OFF
personally. I even had car insurance want it to decide whether to give me car insurance! What BS is that?

Here's another one EEOA data farming: they post ads and if you are a diversity candidate, they email back demanding the person fill out the EEOC data info, including the SS and of course there is no actual consideration for a job! That, believe it or not, is considered "considering" diversity candidates! I find this practice absolutely outrageous...so much for equal opportunity!

So, I'm with you on pet peeve.

[Pystoff]

9. Better than a national ID card

Xenophobic no...making sure the laws on the books are followed through on yes.

This economy has millions of legal americans barely getting by and unemployed right now. These jobs would be a nice boost to those of us that are citizens yes? I'm the DU left and I want something done about this nor am I xenophobic.

loose your job in a right to work state because the boss found a cheaper worker then come back and complain about this....I did....twice.

[MrTriumph]

11. The economy would flourish is illegals were deported

It does not take an economist to know under-the-table arrangements often rob governments of revenue. And the flood of illegals has saturated the job market (unless you are a lawyer, politician or newsman).

Remove them from the US work force and see an increase in tax revenue and higher wages. And see Mexico's government contemplate what to do with her citizens returning home demanding jobs.

[Indy Lurker]

31. no, not completely,

Except for jobs that have to be done in the US, the jobs will follow the cheap labor, whether it's Mexico, China, or Viet Nam.

[metisnation]

19. this make them soooo nervous

just think they will actually have to dishout payroll taxes to legal immigrants to this country. This is not anti immigrant we have a process to get into this country thats all were sayin.

[Zorra]

3. Unworkable. The "Homer Simpson Immigration Bill". Doh. n/t

[demobrit]

28. I agree

This Bill could drive illegals further underground and could push many into criminal activity just to survive.

[screembloodymurder]

5. It's about time we control our borders.

If we need workers, bring them in legally and pay them a living wage. A lot of these jobs "nobody wants" used to pay good money and supported an American family.

[Robert Oak]

7. true

they have used illegal aliens to union bust, esp. in the meatpacking industry...all of those jobs were union, secure, well paying...

Also the construction industry, wages have dropped dramatically...
union skilled workers getting undercut.

What I'm constantly trying to raise up here is awareness of the use of immigration policy by multinational corporations for purposes of depressing wages and reducing worker rights(now there is movement to put immigration policy under the control of the WTO, workers will become tradable commodities, not generally subject to national law, the VISA status controlled by multinational corporations instead of the person or national law)...

So, I'm hoping liberals start digging into this issue beyond the "oh those white supremest racist fucks" reaction and start suggesting
policy recommendations that retain workers rights, continue to raise
up the std. of living on a global scale and also continue to make the US the land of opportunity that used to attract "the best and the brightest" on a global scale.

Right now we're into labor arbitrage and any attempts to modify
this are dealt with on a superficial level that does not truly
analyze labor economics and how immigration policy is a major control
factor in labor economics or one that is guided by US ideals
in balance with the needs of national security and the middle class.

it's just a minefield right now of rhetoric and as far as I can see, Democrats are absolutely no where in development of sane policy that
reaches these goals, more corporate agenda policy and we have Republicans interjecting loss of
rights or stepping on our bill of rights in their efforts.

I mean come on man, you can't deport 10M people....anybody consider "earned" citizenship by proof of "good citizen" & give amnesty for the big crime they did by jumping the border and not going through legal immigration channels? i.e. if they are working, contributing, increasing their education and integrating into society...

Do the same with a guest worker VISA and consider letting some industries have some guest worker seasonal VISAS(agriculture).

The key here is to monitor this whole process and those bastard multinationals lobby to hell freezes over for their cheap labor...
so the problem here is a major modification to the system could be corrupted in 10 seconds flat. (ugh).

That's a compromise that I think correlates to studies on the US which show the benefits of immigration for America historically. It's not complete amnesty and it's not "kick em all out" either.

but first close the border because if the US does give "earned citizenship" credit it will be a flood as the structure stands right now. So, the other side of this equation needs to
get rid of NAFTA and put enormous pressure on Mexico and those
elite families who control the country and rip off their people to abject poverty. Solve that, you solve the mass exodus.

[barb162]

10. excellent post!

But it's not just the multinationals. There are thousands of small companies, especially in construction, painting, roofing, yardwork,etc., that are using illegals.

[Robert Oak]

15. oh yeah

Small business big time. Hotels, restaurants, house cleaning, landscaping and on and on.

and I honestly think, because small business is royally getting screwed in comparison to multinationals...this is going to hurt them...so if they close the border they need to give some serious breaks to small business to compensate for this "under the table" subsidized labor they currently use.

Kerry had a serious of proposals recently to assist small business..
of course ignored...

[Pystoff]

21. Well said

Flush the unfair free trade NAFTA down the toilet very good call.

And hold big business accountable for employing illegal labour.

"I'm hoping liberals start digging into this issue beyond the "oh those white supremest racist fucks" reaction and start suggesting
policy recommendations that retain workers rights, continue to raise
up the std. of living on a global scale and also continue to make the US the land of opportunity that used to attract "the best and the brightest" on a global scale."

Couldn't be said better there man.

[area51]

23. "... you can't deport 10M people."

How about if we deport all H1-Bs & L-1s & end that g-ddamned program right now so unemployed Americans can have a chance @ jobs?

I enjoy your posts, Robert Oak.

[Robert Oak]

25. you're gonna hate me now :)

Ok, hopefully I can preface this with the fact that I am a cyberactivist on these topics and it's pretty clear that we believe it's massive race to the bottom:

I don't think we should kill all H-1Bs and L-1s. But, ya know threatening it ain't so bad if it would get the system cleaned up
and they actually enforced the VISA requirements!

The reason I say that is the programs USED to be for basically true expertise that could not be found anywhere else. And this is true, when you get into areas of physics, mathematics and so forth at the PhD level it's important to be able to bring the best and the brightest and frankly these people on a personal level might not want to immigrate to the US, so having these visas available is important to keep the R&D in the US #1, plus they do add to the culture and quality of the nation (think about all of the "US" scientists going back to Nicole Tesla who were immigrants...huge and this portion of immigration needs to be preserved, 1 Tesla alone is why)

Clearly that said, I think the current abuses(replacing a US MS with an MSc is actually lower qualifications, replacing @ 20%-70% less than the salary the US engineer was earning, etc.) are an outrage and work daily to point it out and it's a major industry in India obviously
to figure out how to abuse the H-1B and L-1 US VISA system. I've posted on here about it and our site is devoted to exposes this method of labor arbitrage. Plus I think we have a massive reverse discrimination going on. No way can the "geniuses of high tech, who were primarily Americans" suddenly be shit and the only way to get a "good" engineer is to bring in a foreigner. I've read that propaganda I don't know how many times, from articles and CEOs.

I also think the US needs to act and fast for major increase in financial support for US students ONLY in graduate school...
plus we've got a problem with the fields themselves. To get a Masters
takes 5-6 years plus 3-5 years to really gain expertise and here
we have industry treating professionals like a cheap commodity.
Who is going to study when job security is nil on these difficult areas of math, engineering and science.

I also don't think they can blank deport 10 (probably more like 20) million people. Just the logistics of this sound insane (can you see the trucks and the logistics in rounding up 20M people and shipping them across the border plus making sure they truly are illegals and so on?)and if you think about it case by case, how many illegals have been here 20 years
manage a restaurant, kids here and so on and are basically doing the American dream. I see no real economic reason to ship them off frankly, if they are contributing, have money, not sucking up social services/working in the underground economy, good citizens, established roots here...(basically everything you would want from a successful immigration except the fact they jumped the border)....I do see a major economic reason to stop the ones who are newly here and I find it disgusting the ones who are working the system heavily (fake SS getting social benefits like housing supplements, working under the table and so forth).

I think a more sane attitude/policy like Canada is not a bad thing to look at. You cannot immigrate to Canada without having a set of criteria (such as a job waiting, skills, clean criminal record, etc.).

I also just do not know how the US is going to even process 20M people. That alone is huge buckos...it needs to be done but I think at a local level(police expanded to do first screen). Sure you need to start doing a "round up" of the ones who are criminals right now and close the border right now.

Tancredo are going after employers plus increasing funds and demanding the border be secured. That portion is 100% dead on. They also have a delay in their plan to do this before examining deportation. I think liberals should get in there and work with them to negotiate some modifications for what makes sense, what is humane and what works based on labor economics. They do have guest worker VISAS but they are going to mass deport before allowing people to apply.
I think that is where the flaw is.

But, honestly I think there are going to be exceptions to this rule and I just don't believe one can "blanket deport" 20M people.
and you have to keep humanity as well as what's good about immigration into the picture. A blanket answer is going to give injustice..but amnesty I think is just as bad. WE've got an underground economic system
a system based on fake IDs, supplementing income with social services designed to support legal residents, employers using illegals to union bust, wage depress and put workers in dangerous situations with no responsibility. That's got to stop.

[Sandpiper]

6. It's big business vs. the xenophobes

And business will win as it always does.

Ask the agricultural, construction, and hospitality industries if they favor it.

[MrTriumph]

13. Ask American workers what they think

If your job were in jeopardy, you might have a different viewpoint.

Bush loves illegal labor.

[Sandpiper]

17. I'm not taking a side, just stating a fact

When was the last time our government acted in the interest of the working class?

This bill is mostly a republican vs republican issue, so I'm content to sit back and watch them eat their own.

[Pystoff]

22. And what?

Wait untill everyone in the US has to work for slave wages? Nope time to act this is a majorly hot button issue with the working class in america now. Either the Dems take a pro-american worker stance on this issue or risk even the unions abandoning them for Pugs that take that stance. A non-racist stance is out there for them to take all they have to do is take it and quit kissing big businesses butt for a change.

[Dark]

12. America doesn't have enough jobs for everyone in the world.

I don't see the bad side of enforcing our immigration laws.

[barb162]

18. We don't even have enough jobs for ourselves

because we are too busy shipping them to Asia and elsewhere and we erode the workers job base by bringing in illegals. SO the American worker is getting hit (destroyed) from multiple directions.

[cascadiance]

16. Need to make sure to add some ammendments that remove

the possibility of businesses "making up" for the loss of supply of illegals with any new "guest worker" program that Bush proposed earlier, or other attempts to grow the cap with H1-B Visa program too. Ammendments should also add some other incentives to keep businesses from outsourcing labor too, like cutting out certain tax incentives that try to outsource beyond a certain percentage of their workforce (as I think Bernie Sanders tried to get through earlier in the House). Push to streamline (but still keep in strict security checking measures) the legitimate immigration process that lets us keep growing decent and well skilled citizens from our neighbors that want to follow the rules and are rewarded more by being made to feel more welcome by following these rules.

[Robert Oak]

26. sausage

I think it's best just to keep this one narrow and focused.

The guest worker Visas are an area of concern for abuse.

Tax incentives and so forth need to be done separately and as a "trade" bill or something of this nature to level the playing.

Get too many factors into the equation on how to create a level playing field for the middle class on one element of the equation and I"ll bet (knowing congress) it would be turned into yet another pork fest like the "American jobs act of 2004" which did do the opposite of the original intent of the bill and the title is an absolute outrage.
(offshore outsourcing tax incentive INCREASE).

[leesa]

20. OK. Let's fine ALL corporations who hire them 10,000 dollars per illegal

How's THAT fiscaly responsible suggestion you greedy little piggies?

[SoCalDem]

24. The solution is so simple..and cheap too

Mandatory minimum sentences of 1 year for first offense..5 yr for 2nd, and 20 for 3rd..

FOR EMPLOYERS!

The poor of the world come here for JOBS. Even a crappy job is better than none back at home. If there are no jobs, they will be reluctant to come.

Employers do the wink and nod, and knowingly hire illegals because they work cheap, ask for nothing, and are disposable.

If the boss knew he might do hard time for hiring those $5 an hour roofers or cabinet makers, he might think twice, and start hiring some laid off citzens who would gladly do the work.

[Indy Lurker]

32. How do you know if you are hiring an illegal?

All I can do is call the Social Security Admin, and check the SS# for new hires.

They always come back ok, even if the ponential new hires speak little or no english.

Should I hire strictly on english skills?

btw: I've been told, a valid SS# can be had for under $1000.

[SoCalDem]

33. The government money should be used

to come up with a more "secure" social security program, and a better screening program..not harrassing poor people.

and as a boss, let's say you are paying wages that attract out of work citizens (obvious by their long paper trail in the US and their ready documents to prove their status..their references of other jobs.) would you be paying the ones who don't speak english, but do have "documents" the same wage??

If bosses are hiring low/no skilled people on the cheap, there's a good chance they are not legal..

If a job is paying 12-15 an hour, there will likely be many unemployed citizens applying for it. Illegals may pass on that one, because they would suspect that their documents would face a higher degree of scrutiny..

But if a job is paying 5-8 an hour, it will attract a totally different calibre of applicant..

[meganmonkey]

27. Why don't we enforce laws that we already have

instead of creating more?

:banghead:

[Phoonzang]

29. Oh I see they want a tamper-proof Social Security

...card but not tamper-proof voting systems. :eyes:

[Allenberg]

30. Yikes!

Quite the zinger. :D