London attackers 'meant to kill' (So, four failures?)

[moodforaday]

London attackers 'meant to kill'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4705117.stm

The people behind the latest attacks in London meant to kill, the head of the Metropolitan Police has said.

But Sir Ian Blair said evidence left at the scenes could be very helpful to police and added "the intention of the terrorists has failed".

Attempts were made to set off explosives at four locations, including three Tube stations and on one bus.

Mayor Ken Livingstone praised the emergency services and said the people of London would "get through this".

Police sources say the blasts may have been near-simultaneous and that they are being linked with the 7 July bombs.
(snip)

[evermind]

1. Yep, the police spokesman said he understood there were

"unexploded devices", which looks like the detonators-worked-bombs-didn't picture.

Also, A BBC correspondent I heard (Mark Urban) said sources had told him the rucksacks used were of "almost identical construction" to those used in the attacks two weeks ago, as well as repeating the "unexploded devices" claim.

[krkaufman]

2. Bombs must have all been made by same guy...

... or using the same materials or process. Gotta like that they pulled a Richard Reid this time around.

[aquart]

3. I dunno about the same guy.

This one doesn't seem to have had a good grasp of bomb principles.

[KittyWampus]

4. or proper materials, perhaps?

[moodforaday]

5. Luton van

Must be they left all their explosives behind in the van at Luton, so they only had detonators...

[BooScout]

6. The BBC is saying

The bombs are intact with explosives. It simply looks like the idiot who wired them up screwed up. Lucky for London.

[Xithras]

16. A crisis of concience perhaps?

Let's not completely discount the possibility that someone was feeling guilty and DELIBERATELY miswired the bombs. If these bombs were built by the same person that built the last set, it's plausible that two weeks of watching bloody footage, funerals, and grieving families on the TV may have caused him to reexamine his beliefs a little.

Perhaps I'm an optomist, but four screwups seems to be a bit of a stretch.

[BooScout]

20. Not really.....

If you wire them all up the exact same way and you do one thing wrong..........no BOOM x 4 in this case.

[Zynx]

38. Yep. Same plans + same mistake = same result. No BOOM.

[krkaufman]

10. Oops. Key "not" missing from my previous statement.

As you obviously noticed.

[lockdown]

7. Question for explosives experts (or dabblers)

There are suggestions the explosives today are the same as those used on the 7th, but afaik there's still confusion over what types of explosives they were, so does the way these failed today (flash, smoke, rubbery smell) point to a particular type of explosive, a faulty mix ratio or preparation or whatever that could produce such duds? Or does it say nothing beyond the detonators failed?

[mike923]

8. This could be a huge break....

assuming they have the four guys in custody, they should be able to break open the terror ring, right at the source. One of them is sure to spill the beans on who is setting it up.

[geckosfeet]

9. So lets think about this,,,,, 50 people killed last time. Britain's outrag

Now that they are edgy,,, a few well placed duds to avoid casualties will have a stampeding effect. Hmmm,,, does this sound covert? Am I being too cynical?

At this point I would suspect the CIA as much as I would suspect an Islamic group.

[mike923]

11. I don't buy it...

If the CIA were to scheme this up, it'd have to be more than a few guys hatching the plan. Each with wives, golf buddies, ect. One slip up, and the whole world knows that we are behind the terrorist attacks, which is such a risk to their way of life. It would easily mean death sentances for everyone involved. Is the reward worth a possible death and disgrace for your family for centuries?

Radical Muslims want us out of their region and way of life. Their schools preach that we eat our young, their books preach that those who don't follow their sect deserve to die (including other Muslims).

I just wouldn't hang my hat on anything other than these guys want us dead.

[CarinKaryn]

18. You are spouting garbage

I want to see cites for your outrageous statements.

Back up your smears against Muslims - now.

[unionjack]

22. Oh please........

.......the guy said nothing outrageous.

Do you actually have anything to say about the murderous, religous fascists who are roaming our streets tonight ?

Or do you just specialise in mock outrage over something as frightening as harmless comment ?

[Skittles]

24. I see nothing wrong with being asked to cite some sources

ya know?

[geckosfeet]

25. My point is that it is very easy for an intelligence agency to exacerbate

an already volatile situation. Of course their hands are clean as far as actually doing the dirty work. But some poor fundamentalist schmuck ends up getting himself blown to bits and ultimately does his cause more harm than good.

In a twisted way, its in the theocons and Blair's interest for this thing to escalate and keep people off balance. They did it with those absurd terror alerts during the presidential election. They outed one of their own CIA agents for Christs sake! They fired Tenet for trying to stand up (in a weak back ass sort of way) for the CIA.

Do you think for a second that the theocons are beyond inciting radical action by the dis-enfranchised if it would further their cause? Wake up. It may not be "official policy" but its a short walk from "fixing intelligence" to "creating conditions".

Witness Vietnam and Iraq. Both wars built on packs and packs of lies. The theocon thieves need to keep villains fresh in our minds so we stayed cowed enough to allow the continued bloodletting of our countries resources.

[unionjack]

29. You want sources......

.....that confirm radical muslims get spoon-fed on anti US vitriol ?

Hmmmm. Why not check out one of their web-sites ? Or one of BinLadens messages to your country ? Are you in some sort of denial ?

As hateful or shamed as you might feel towards your government/ president / system/ whatever, you might do better to first call a fascist a fascist and deal with them as appropriate.

Then you can go back to your liberal v conservative little turf war.

[geckosfeet]

26. Look,,, there goes a religious fanatic !!! He's on my street !!!!

LETS GET IM !!!!!

He a Christian fundy but hey,,, when you are fear mongering you can't always afford to be picky.

[Nihil]

33. Oh please....... (enough dots there yet?) ....

> the guy said nothing outrageous

Apart from spouting bullshit, no, not a thing.

> Do you actually have anything to say about the murderous, religous
> fascists who are roaming our streets tonight ?

Do you write for the Daily Mail?

> murderous, religious fascists

The implication being that the religion is Islam?

> roaming our streets tonight

My God! They're here! They're outside the door! They're in OUR country!
Quick - lock up anyone wearing a turban, anyone with "tinted" skin,
anyone who isn't white, pig ignorant and swallowing the official
story du jour hook line & sinker.

[muriel_volestrangler]

13. So far, they have no-one in custody at all (n/t)

[fedsron2us]

14. Bystanders tried to tackle one of the suspects at the Oval

according to the BBC. Unfortunately, he escaped up one of the escalators. All the crime scenes should be covered by CCTV so I would have thought that the police would need to look through no more than 15-30 minutes of footage from each location to get pictures of the culprits. If they remain at large for any length of time then the security agencies are either completely incompetent or something fishy is going on.

[burrowowl]

31. I absolutely LOVE

Steve Bell!

[MetaTrope]

12. Maybe they couldn't afford any more French perfume?

:eyes:

[fedsron2us]

15. News outlets in the UK are suggesting its acetone peroxide

which is the same substance that is suspected of being used in the July 7th attacks. It can be a devastating explosive but it is supposed to be highly unstable and to decay quickly. I suppose if these bombs were made at the same time as those used in the earlier attack but have been kept in store for a couple of weeks they may have become very unreliable. Although the Palestinians use this stuff a lot it is really dodgy ordinance and would normally only appeal to terrorists who can not really afford anything better. Contrary to what you will read in a lot of media articles it is not 'Al Qaeda's explosive of choice'. Most of their large attacks have used either commercial explosives (Madrid) or ammonium nitrate (Bali, Kenya etc). If they have turned to using this crap then they must be getting desperate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone_peroxide

[lockdown]

32. Sounds amateurish

Not al-Qaeda's explosive of choice. That's one explanation for the shifting account of what was used previously, they were trying to make the facts fit the policy of a sophisticated and well financed enemy network.

The possibility they could've been made at the same time and went bad in storage is interesting (wonder if looking at that Wiki link will become illegal under proposed UK laws...). Most reports seem to be indicating bad detonators, but the article below says they failed in different ways, which sounds like rank amateurism.

The detonators on at least two of the devices are believed to have initiated but did not ignite the explosive in the rucksacks. One did not detonate at all, and another only partially. In all four, the main charges were not detonated. Sir Ian refused to confirm or deny reports that the devices were packed with nails and shards of metal.

It is still unclear what type of explosive was used in the bombs. One of the key questions is whether the material used in the explosive is the same homemade material used in the bombs of 7 July. Police are still struggling to discover the make-up of the explosive used two weeks ago, but it is thought to be of a type similar to material known as the "Mother of Satan", triacetone triperoxide or TATP. The base ingredients - drain cleaner, bleach and acetone - can be bought easily without attracting suspicion; its chemical composition is simple, and in its finished form it is almost undetectable by sniffer dogs or conventional bomb-detection systems.

The detonators used in yesterday's attack appear to be the weak point. Andy Oppenheimer, an explosives expert with Jane's Information Group, said the "popping" sound heard by witnesses could indicate the explosion of a detonator.

"That would be a typical sound that would be heard, a dull thud. This type of malfunction used to happen to the IRA, who had expert bombmakers. It could be bad workmanship or it could be a deliberate attempt to disrupt the city two weeks later."

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article300759.ece

[Zynx]

39. They probably used it because it was easier to get

The trade off is that it's unstable and unreliable.

[daleo]

43. The forgot about the perfume

"The base ingredients - drain cleaner, bleach and acetone - can be bought easily without attracting suspicion"

There was a bit of nonsense about one of the alleged bombers adding expensive perfume to his bomb as a sort of super expensive napalm. That seems more like something a Pentagon contractor might come up with, to pad their prices.

[BooScout]

21. Not an expert....

But I would say it's the detonators being wired up wrong that failed. The explosives used two weeks ago was supposedly TATP and thye are saying it was the same thing today. I would imagine that the experts could easily see if the chemical makeup of the explosives was the same as last time.

[Indy Lurker]

27. most likely procedure

It's just Per-oxide, Acetone, and HCL (hydrocloric acid).

From what I know, the stuff is amazingly sensitive to shock, like nitroglycerin.

After mixing the acetone and peroxide, the crystals that are formed by adding HCL, which removes byproducts and impurities.

It possible that they only washed the crystals once or twice, to reduce the sensitivity to shock, and at the same time had a mixture that wouldn't explode.

Many high explosives will burn without expolding, they need a small primary explosion to set them off, thus the use of blasting caps. If there isn't enough pop from the blasting cap, or the high explosive is of poor quality, it will fizzle instead of explode. The explosions that occured, were probably just the blasting caps.

Also, I understand improper storage can cause this explosive to go bad.

[lockdown]

34. Thanks, interesting stuff

As you say, sounds like the bangs heard were the detonators. From the link I posted further up, sounds like it could be a combination of ineffective detonators AND badly prepared or stored explosives.

The detonators on at least two of the devices are believed to have initiated but did not ignite the explosive in the rucksacks. One did not detonate at all, and another only partially. In all four, the main charges were not detonated. Sir Ian refused to confirm or deny reports that the devices were packed with nails and shards of metal.

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article300759.ece

[drduffy]

17. black ops

bush has been having black ops done quite frequently and under the congressional radar. Does anybody really believe they couldn't orchestrate the london episodes. And without being 'caught' or 'outed'. Of course they could do this. And have done many similar acts all around the world for quite a while. Many who throw up objections are simply naive.

[Imagevision]

41. black ops? well they were kind enough not to hurt anyone?

[daleo]

19. I think it was a sort of a warning to Blair/Bush

Psychological warfare, what have you. Unless it was done by "our side" to keep the public in fear, but without having to actually kill anyone.

On edit - I mean, four perfect bombs one time, four squibs the next. It seems improbable, if it is the same group.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

28. I think it was done by the other guys

to ensure the extension of the Patri-rot Act.

Bin Laden said he'd take away our freedom, no?

[Imagevision]

42. Seems kind of lame to me - go thru all that trouble to go BOO!!

gotcha! -- nah! it does sound like something that would come out of the Bush guyz though...

[Skittles]

23. my brother works at Piccadilly

this is nerve-wracking no matter what the results

[kestrel91316]

30. I have 2 theories:

#1 - the top bombmaker went back to Pakistan (?) and they arrested him there, right? So his apprentice did this set of bombs but screwed up bigtime.

#2 - CIA black ops to convince us we REALLY need tha USA PATRIOT Act made permanent. Looks like it worked.

[geckosfeet]

37. Well you have neatly divided what is a complex mix of social hysteria

into two convenient packages. This is convenient for analysis.

In that vein, I suspect there is at least one more major component; that is that there is a radical group of some sort, IRA, Islamic fundamentalist, Xtian fundamentalist, whatever, acting on behalf of an orchestrating government power. One important and key notion to keep in mind is that at the level of the bomb maker and bomber on the ground, there is no knowledge of the orchestrating powers which probably take the form of intelligence agencies. The foot soldiers are acting for their own radical motivations but are being enabled by others.

The two theories that you mention are most certainly present and intertwined in a similar manner.

[eagler]

35. I think they were timed to go off with the passage of the Patriot Act

nt

[Karenina]

36. And now the CIA has been given carte blance

in IRELAND!!! :wtf:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1642550&mesg_id=1642550

[Imagevision]

40. Think about it - Rove & DSM heating up in the US. - with Tony Blair

really being a partner to this WMD's scenario with the DSM not exactly helping Blair or Bush or Rove and Libby to mantion only a few?

4 bomb attempts and they claim only one person was injured? no-one got dead? - Is this a first? Is this for the Guinness book of records? no. it's actually for public consumption.

Meanwhile:> Bloomberg reporting that Rove, Libby may be facing perjury charges.

Bloomberg article which is reporting that Karl Rove, senior adviser to the President and deputy chief of staff, and Lewis Libby, chief of staff to Vice President Cheney, are being investigated for having lied to a federal grand jury about how they learned the identity of a covert CIA agent, Valerie Plame.
Rove, Libby Accounts in CIA Case Differ With Those of Reporters.
http://thinkprogress.org/2005/07/21/breaking-bloomberg-...

[Imagevision]

44. definitly recommended!