Iraqi Forces Nowhere Near Able to Fight Insurgency on Own, Senate Told

[sintax]

Iraqi forces nowhere near being able to fight insurgency on their own, Senate told

Assessment suggests US occupation has a long future

Julian Borger in Washington and agencies in Baghdad
Friday July 22, 2005
The Guardian

The Iraqi government's forces are nowhere near battle ready and only a small number are capable of fighting the insurgency on their own, according to a newly declassified Pentagon document.

The assessment, provided to the Senate by General Peter Pace, the newly appointed chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, paints a stark picture of Iraqi military readiness that contrasts with the Pentagon's upbeat official tone.

According to excerpts in US newspapers yesterday, Gen Pace said about half of Iraq's new police battalions were still being established and were not in a position to conduct operations. The other half of the police and two-thirds of the new Iraqi army battalions were only "partially capable" of carrying out counter-insurgency missions, and required US help.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1534042,00.html

[firefox]

1. Isn't Iraqi killing Iraqi a civil war?

Isn't the US goal a civil war like we have made in Colombia for going on four decades? Their talk is a war on our language, that is for sure.

[sintax]

2. "A war on our language"

You got it.

Insurgents? Sorry folks this is an army.

Hired guns who are desperate for cash. Planned chaos.

[Yupster]

25. It really won't be a Civil War

until the Shi-ite militias get involved. Then you'll see a Civil War.

I sometimes put on my tinfoil and think that the Sunni insurgency is aimed at keeping the US in the country, because when the US leaves, the Shi-ite militias are going to show that they are well capable of defeating the insurgents as they make up for 30 years of injustice in just a few months.

That's my guess anyway.

[BrotherBuzz]

3. Shades of ARVN

The Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN) never did amount to much...

[Redstone]

5. Some of them did. Some of them fought like tigers, and

I saw them do it. Some of them saved my life.

Your blanket statement is an insult to many brave men.

Redstone

[barb162]

8. Since you were in Vietnam

How long does it take to train a soldier to be "battle ready." The Iraqi soldiers... I am missing what is going on with their training that , well, I can't finish the sentence. It seems like we have been training them for at least a year.

[Redstone]

9. You have a valid point, and one that should

be asked publicly and frequently. Especially given that so many of them were already in the Iraqi army once before.

I can't figure it out either.

I'm still angry at the other post, though. He doesn't have ANY idea how many ARVNs fought well, suffered, and died. I bet he also doesn't know that some of them were hanging on in the Delta until the early 1980s, still fighting the doomed fight.

Redstone

[barb162]

10. I remember a lot about Vietnam but not like your direct experience.

There was a long article in Newsweek about 3 years ago on the fall of Saigon and I remember getting so angry and sick all over again (those people screaming to be let on those helicopters). This article was told from the perspective of about 5 or 6 people who were there in Saigon that last day. So I got to work and was livid and crazy and started telling the people why I was so upset; how all these thousands (THOUSANDS!!!!!!)of people died, Nixon's "secret" plan to end the war, those photos of the embassy roof and gates and the frantic Vietnamese that last day.... The whole several years came back to me just reading about that last day, the people I knew from high school who died there.... It was a primal scream reading it and I was never even in Vietnam.

Anyway, the people at work were looking at me like I was nuts. They were in their 30s and 40s and it might as well have been World War 1 I was talking about. They couldn't connect to what I was talking about... it was just history or something to them

[Redstone]

12. I had an unusual perspective...

I was a civilian, working for a company under contract to one of the branches of the military, but my job involved being in (and I mean RIGHT in the middle of) combat areas. Dumbest fucking thing I've ever done. But $1500 a month was damn good money back then.

If you think that sounds strange, you have to remember that there were a LOT of different wars going on over there in addition to the main one you saw on the the evening news. In fact, I'd have to say that the things that happened in the movie "Apocalypse Now" were actually more likely to have really happened than not. What a nightmare.

Redstone

[barb162]

16. Hmmm, That is a very hard movie to watch. ohmygod

[Redstone]

18. Not near as hard as "Hamburger Hill."

That one was set before my time, but I was never able to finish seeing it.

Redstone

[barb162]

19. Then I will take that as a reason to not see it.

Another, Saving Private Ryan on Omaha Beach in the beginning. Will never ever watch that again. Ever

[Redstone]

20. Nor I. That stuff isn't entertaining when

you've seen it for real.

It's been good chatting with you, but it's time for me to sign off and get some sleep.

See you around the forums (or should that be fora?).

Redstone

[barb162]

22. Goodnight!!!!!!

(sleep tight and don't let the bedbugs bite, as my mom used to say)

[ngGale]

26. My worse nightmare is "Full Metal Jacket" ....

argggg! :scared:

[barb162]

14. Your last paragraph

What I wanted to add was that I can't even begin to understand your last paragraph as I wasn't there. I saw it on TV and read about it all through the war years and was always terribly upset about it. I would scream at the TV often in those days as the body counts and injured kept rising. I didn't know that some of the Vietnamese soldiers were still fighting until the early 1980s

[BrotherBuzz]

11. I don't doubt there were great soldiers in the ARVN

and the same should be said for our military on the ground in Vietnam. The blame for failure rests directly on the leadership. We lost, they lost...and this stupid draftee that added "no value, no advantage, really, to the United States armed services" places no blame on the individuals - just the machines they soldiered for.

[Redstone]

13. Thank you. That's better. Their ghosts rest easier now.

Redstone

[BrotherBuzz]

15. May the ghosts of all our brothers rest easy.

and I mean ALL of our brothers...

[Redstone]

17. Amen.

Redstone

[Old and In the Way]

4. You mean this administration has been bullshitting us about this?

No Way!

[shadowknows69]

6. The longest basic training in the history of the military

Give them the DVD of "Stripes" and get the fuk out of there.

[daleo]

7. They seem to be doing a good job of fighting an insurgency

Oh, they mean against an insurgency.

[BikeWriter]

24. Exactly. The feedback I've had is an Iraqi Army troop is...

as likely to be hand in glove with the insurgency as not.

[saigon68]

21. They Can't fight their way out of a

WET PAPER BAG

[shadowknows69]

28. We don't want them ready to fight

I find it hard to believe that a country of people whose recent history (20 years or so) has been defined by constant conflict have a problem learning military manuevers. Clearly they should be training us how to defend against a guerilla war.

[The_Casual_Observer]

23. Some general guy on CNN was likening this to Vietnam, BUT

putting a POSITIVE spin on it, like the Vietnam Army eventually did a good job or something. The guy was spun.

[nguoihue]

27. How long does it take to train

an Iraqi soldier to kill other Iraqis for Bushco?

Wonder how long it takes to train a guerrilla fighting against the foreign invaders.

[shadowknows69]

29. 5 minutes after they load their AK47

there's your gun. shoot the bad guy.

[leftchick]

30. here we go again...

I can't believe this is happening twice in my lifetime...

:(

[saigon68]

32. Viet-Nam Redux 1975

We said it here in January 2003

[CWebster]

31. Lets get real about this

The insurgency opooses the US occupation. The Iraqi security forces are to do the US dirty work and turn against their own people and get killed for it because there is no other work?

Will some one pleas tell Ms Hillary the reality?