Brazil Demands Explanation of U.K. Death

[maddezmom]

SAO PAULO, Brazil - Brazil's government demanded an explanation Saturday for the fatal police shooting of Brazilian citizen on a London subway car.

London police initially said the man chased down and shot to death by plainclothes officers was tied to the recent terror bombings, but conceded Saturday that they no longer believed that was the case.

The Brazilian government said the man, identified by British authorities as 27-year-old Jean Charles de Menezes, was "apparently the victim of a lamentable mistake."

"The government expects the British authorities to explain the circumstances that led to this tragedy," the statement said.

more:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050724/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/brazil_britain_bombings

[jsamuel]

1. What happens to people who know too much?

[fooj]

2. Way to go BRAZIL!!! Demand accountability!

Peace.

[mourningdove92]

4. Wonder if they will wuss out like Italy did?

[goforit]

18. A sleeping giant......This may rally all of South America!!!

This may be the straw that broke the camels back.

London and the US have been nothing but suppressors to
all the latin American countries.

And these guys are standing on a united front.

[Behind the Aegis]

3. what will they say?

There have been two attacks on London and the police are 'on-edge' and overreacted. This was a tragic event.

[Warren Stupidity]

5. Do some more research.

Not an accident. Not an overreaction. The team that did this was trained to do exactly what they did. The fact that they happened to execute the wrong person was a mere detail. They pinned this guy down on the floor and blew his brains out. That is not an overreaction. That is murder.

You know what? As you are not alone in your sentiments I'd say that this 'incident' has accomplished one of its purposes. We are now willing to accept street executions by our police forces so that we can be safe from the bad terrorists. Wake up!

[Behind the Aegis]

6. It was just an explanation, not an excuse.

[Warren Stupidity]

7. Do the research

Take five minutes right here on DU. Understand that this team that did this was trained to do exactly what they did.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TheWatcher]

10. Protect "ingrates" like us?

Suffering from a bit of internet courage, are we?

If you want to engage in deabte, great, but take your childish personal insults to Yahoo.

You won't be here long.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[confludemocrat]

13. Police can't get their story straight. Was this a killing squad?

As someone else here said, if he was a suspected bomber why did they let him get all the way to the tube station turnstile or entrance before trying to stop him, having surveilled him after leaving a house.

They also tried to justify the killing partly based on his having been wearing a large coat. It was cool that day in London. The reporter I heard said that his having been wearing a large coat in weather in the 70s was suspicious. To me that's kinda cold, the low having been in the mid fifties, the morning was certainly chilly. Anyway, they never said heavy coat.

The police chief or commissioner said he was linked to the bombing. Now he wasn't.

He was executed by poilice who had been trained by Israelis.

The Isaraelis level of success at stopping suicide bombers was such that they had to build a wall. Actually what they have been successful at is killing alot of Palestinians.

What a stupid disaster, and no one is safer for all this.

[daleo]

39. Not just that, but they let him ride a bus to the tube station.

Apparently, they were worried he would detonate a bomb on the subway, but not on the bus. Either this was an assassination, or a very badly botched police action. Perhaps it was meant to be the first, but ended up being the second, due to mistaken identity.

[Matilda]

14. In fact, armed detectives are trained to shoot at the chest,

not the head. Only in extraordinary circumstances are they permitted
to shoot at the head.

We don't yet know all the circumstances - why they were chasing him,
why he ran, but one fact remains - they had him on the floor of the
train, and they shot him five times. Just how dead did he have to
be before they were satisfied?

Looks very much like it was the cops who panicked and over-reacted,
and that's bad news for innocent civilians.

[LisaL]

20. Head is a much smaller target.

The fact that they shot him in the head clearly indicates to me he wasn't moving when he was shot. It would have been very hard to hit him in the head five times if he was running away from them.

[Frederik]

46. They forced him down

then put the gun to his head an emptied 5 shots into it as he was lying on the ground, according to one of the eyewitnesses. An execution, pure and simple.

[conservdem]

49. Do you believe that the cops thought he had a bomb?

[Frederik]

50. Possibly

[LisaL]

19. The police weren't in uniforms. Poor guy most likely thought

some thugs were after him, so he run. And they shot him while he was on the ground already. It was an execution.
They should be charged with his murder.

[SoCalDem]

34. "refuses to stop".. Did they ask him in Portuguese?

In cities with lots of people from other countries, "all brownish people" look alike, and all are suspects first, visitors second.

This is what fear does to people.:(

Innocents get killed, and the beat goes on:(

[Behind the Aegis]

12. So how does that even make a whit of difference?

It was unfortunate, but London has suffered two attacks. Should any be surprised? I am not blaming the victim here. He didn't do anything, other than try to catch a ride. The police are just on-edge because of the recent attacks.

Again, on edit, this is not an excuse for their killing him, just and explanation.

[LisaL]

21. It might make no difference for you, but I am sure it makes a

difference for him. He is dead.

[Behind the Aegis]

22. It is sad he is dead.

But, considering that two terrorist attacks just took place, is it not surprising that this happened?

[LisaL]

23. But the police admits that he had nothing to do with the

terrorists attacks. So, yes, sorry if I am a bit surprised they shot some poor soul in the head just because he left an apartment complex connected with the bombings. It wasn't even a house, it was an apartment complex, for crying out loud.

[Behind the Aegis]

24. And that makes it more tragic...

...but the recent attacks have people a little 'crazed.'

[LisaL]

26. Crazed people with guns-not a good combination.

Note to self-trow away all coats.

[Behind the Aegis]

28. OH SO VERY TRUE!!! n/t

[Frederik]

47. It is surprising

that they would force a man to the ground and then empty 5 shots into his head while he was lying on the ground. I didn't expect this to happen, and I think it's troubling.

[DELUSIONAL]

11. The Psychological manipulation of the population is astounding

plain clothes cops can now execute innocent people at will -- and my bet is that nothing will happen to these state sanctions murderers.

I hope Brazil makes an International incident out of the murder of their citizen -- and that tourist STOP coming to London. That would make the merchants start screaming. The only way to wake up the individual is through the pocket book.

From the beginning we were fed a series of lies -- from potential bomber caught -- when the reality is that this man was executed in broad daylight by trained government assassins.

What about people who work in the defense industries who know too much and who want to retire? Will they be seen as a threat and become a assassination target. What about people who know the dirty secrets about how the government is stealing the American tax-payers blind -- will they become assassination targets?

We have entered the SciFi world of the FILM -- Brazil.

[cliss]

29. You're right.

We have just passed through the Portal to a New Age. An age of wholesale killing, of innocent people who get caught in the crosshairs. Actually, this new age started in 2000, when George Bush crawled into the White House. The has-been parent, who's now become a sycophant to its former colony, has to do its bidding.

As far as tourists not coming to London, that's already happening. I know of several people who are cancelling their plans to go to England. They feel it's too dangerous. I myself was on the London subway, a mere few months ago. We lost a family member at the Liverpool Street Station (found him later, at another station). I'll never set foot in that country again.

Blair can have it. But I guarantee you - England would be bankrupt without its tourism.

[conservdem]

45. The police were probably trying to make sure he would not

be able to activate the bomb they thought he had. If that's the case, I would not jump to the conclusion of excessive force. If it went to a trial, a jury may find that it was reasonable force in the circumstances.

Do you believe that the police thought he had a bomb?

You seem to be jumping to a conclusion of criminal culpability. How do you feel when Repbs do that?

[drduffy]

9. Don't let it go, Brazil

see this through to the end.

[mbperrin]

15. Demanding is good!

This is simply murder without trial by some kind of official government agents. If tourists cannot come to London safely, their governments should issue advisories, or better , not issue visas.

We'll see how long it takes before the loss of dollars (or pounds) makes the situation a bit more realistic. Been watching way too many Stallone and Norris pictures.

[bigluckyfeet]

33. Would not it be Better to Capture the Man

and question him,then just kill him.

[mbperrin]

38. My point exactly. and if they won't, don't go there

and spend your money.....

[conservdem]

48. Probably, and if he had stopped and slowly removed his coat

while they could be at safe distance that may well have been the result. But, given the circumstances that were reported so far it appears that they thought he had a bomb and shot him to stop him from detonating it. See my post above.

[peacebuzzard]

16. He was working to send money home to the country he missed

His parents were modest rural laborers and he phoned often, and sent money home to pay the phone bill. The only attainable education he had was limited since the local public schools went up through the primary levels. He had managed to finish high school and was an electrician by trade. The last time he was in Brazil he bought a small truck and left it with his brother in Sao Paulo, he had lamented upon leaving. He had plans on a homecoming in six months.
http://oglobo.globo.com/online/default.asp

[theHandpuppet]

17. Can someone please translate the article in its entirety?

Thanks in advance.

[peacebuzzard]

30. The Deceased in the Metro was a Brazilian

Jean Claude de Menezes was from Minas Gerais and worked in England. he has no connection w/ the terrorists attacks. The Brazilian government is asking for an explanation.

Brazilian killed in London had plans to return to Brazil.

Rio..Having lived in England for 3 years the native of Minas Gerais , Jean Claude de Menezes was killed by mistaken shots by the British police on the metro in London this Friday. He had plans to return to Brazil within 6 months. Jean went through high school in Gonzaga, MG and went to live in Sao Paulo at 18 where he completed an electrician course and he left fo Euroe at 24 looking for a job opportunity.

During his period away, Jean visited Brazil two times. Tje last time he stayed in Brazil for 4 months and left the country in April. Upon leaving he confessed he missed it and was saving money to return.

He had plans to return because his whole family is there. He went to London to find something that would help him live better in Brazil. And he was successful because he worked alot and spoke English well, stated Leide Menezes de Figueira by phone.

According to her, Jean called frequently to his grandmother with whom he lived until he finished high school. His parents were of modest means and worked on a farm in the rural hamlet of Corrego dos Ratos, 40 minutes away from Gonzaga. Close by the hamlet were only primary schools.

His cousin Cleber was surprised by the news. He had plans to return in 6 months and had bought a truck, an S-10 which he left with his brother in Sao Paulo. He didn't like London very much but here he couldn't get what he wanted. For financial reasons, London was good but it was here that he wanted to be.

According to Cleber, Jean sent money periodically to the family especially for bills for the phone at his grandmother's house. That was how he maintained contact with his family.

Responsible to relate the death news to Jean's mother, who is 50 yrs old and debilitated, Cleber said the aunt was sad.

"My aunt got very sick and says she won't make it" She had to be medicated because she has a heart problem and high blood pressure.

[peacebuzzard]

31. Jean's family wants justice.

(continuing translation)
I've had information that Jean's death was a very serious mistake by the police.

Alex Alves dos Santos, one of the cousins that lived with Jean in London and identified the body is holding them accountable and said they were monsters. How can this be? He was going to work and took 5 bullets point blank. This is very serious.

According to him the family has not received any phone call either from the Brazilian government or the British.

Alex Alves dos Santos meanwhile is receiving help form the Brazilian Consulate in London about transporting the body to Brazil.

[bribri16]

27. I said the very day of the shooting that they killed an innocent man.

Any fool would know that terrorists don't run through subways.

[Erika]

32. Blair's/W's hysteria seeped into the cops

You have Bush/Blair yelling foreigners are bombers at every chance, and this is what you end up with. An innocent Brazilain dead because he didn't dress right according to protocol and he ran.

The British determined he was guilty and executed him without a second thought. They will pay in tourism drop offs.

[newyorican]

35. The Dung Also Rises

I saw Mick Jagger do it at Altamont. I saw him do it. I didn’t hear about it and I was crystal clear that day. I saw him pound the stage with his belt during Midnight Rambler. The crowd was already freaked and the Hell’s Angels were getting into a groove with the pool cues. I was right up front. I know someone punched him on his way to the stage. You could argue that was what set him off. It didn’t look like that though. It looked methodical and deliberate. It looked like what he wanted to do. Then, whatever the song, when the crowd would surge and the Angel’s would lay into them with a will, he’d go, “Peace brothers and sisters, Peace.” He was unctuous and diabolical. Then he’d wail into the hard shit and they’d be at it again. I watched his mock alarm. The Walrus and Carpenter act was transparent.

-snip-

So it is with 9/11 and these London bombings. So it is with the Bin Laden under the bed. So it is with the phony terror alerts that come and go depending on need. Seemingly intelligent people can’t seem to get the picture that this is orchestrated. Evidence spills out in all directions but the connections aren’t made. Of course Fox News is telling the truth. How could they have that big network and all those talking heads; all that money, unless they were telling the truth? Of course the president is doing his best. Come on Visible! There are terrorists out there!!! I’m sure there are but they aren’t your problem. Your government is your problem. Your governments are the terrorists and just like Jagger on stage at Altamont they press the crowd toward panic while urging calm.

-snip-

Bush and all of his co-conspirators are lying, murdering thugs… and I’m being kind. These are the people you need to look out for, not a bunch of rag tag Arabs.

Back to my suggestive beginning at the beginning of this piece; I’ve seen it all before. Here’s what’s up. Hatred is being whipped up against the Muslims- against the Muslims in America and Britain. They’re going to let the coming war in the streets, the rage of the common man against a perceived enemy set the stage for everything they desire and they’re fanning the flames right now. Look at some of the suggestive headlines at The Drudge Report this morning. Meanwhile they are going to superficially pacify the mob with “Be calm brothers and sisters. Peace” They’re going to push the riots and then step in as an agency for domestic control and remain ineffectual in stopping anything. Did you not see the Patriot Act move like shit through a goose in Congress? They renewed it didn’t they? Nice timing. Have you heard anything about the man shot dead in London while already lying down? Oh, they’ll get to that, or not.


Link

[Voltaire99]

36. Guardian: UK cops following Israeli advice

"Armed officers are instructed to shoot at the head, not the chest, when facing a suspected suicide bomber, to disable them faster. The change follows advice from the Israeli police."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1535246,00.html

Advice on building walls to follow?

[IndianaGreen]

37. Israel also told the US how to deal with Fallujah

Now, asks yourselves, why is Israel being so nice to the US and the UK dispensing with all of that advise that has served Israel so well in winning the hearts and minds of the Palestinians?

If this shooting had taken place in Philadelphia or New York, there would be an uproar about racism!

[pelsar]

52. indian....dont know much about IDFmilitary tactics.....

the IDF doesnt use artillery within palestenain cities...guess the US didnt listen to us...oh and you know this information how?...

[daleo]

40. This cries for charges against the police

That way we would get legal testimony about what really happened. One can understand that the police could be on edge given the circumstances in Britain in the preceding weeks, but let us get some actual legal testimony. The police involved should have to answer, under oath, exactly what they did and what their orders were. If their actions were a tragic mistake, that will come out. It is time to get back to the principle of due process.

[oscarmitre]

41. Before anyone can be charged

there has to be and investigation and then sufficient evidence for a prosecution. Some of the more hysterical comments on this thread ignore that in the UK there are independent bodies which will investigate this tragic event.

There may well be charges against the police officers involved.

If so then they will face those charges as individuals, not as agents of government, because of English law.

Police in the UK have been charged criminally in several instances where they have had to shoot and kill. They don't cover things up and Blair and Straw have no authority over the police.

The doctrine of the separation of powers is still alive in the UK.

[D-Notice]

42. No, but another member of the govt -

Charles Clarke (the Home Secretary): the guy who came up with "Control Orders" (putting people under house arrest on his say-so, without any real evidence) & is trying to force ID cards upon us - does, so there is a chance of a cover-up in this sort of situation.

[theHandpuppet]

43. And the irony is...

... that by this innocent young man's execution, an hundred new terrorists are born. Young men and women who have just witnessed, with crystalline clarity, that at the end of the day race and class ALWAYS matter. That just beneath a surface of societal tolerance lies hatred and fear of the other, the man whose skin is a darker shade, whose culture is not European, whose god does not look down upon him from a crucifix.

But you -- we -- made a mistake, you see? Because this young man, this other, he had bought the line. He worshipped your god. From the belly of poverty he came to your country believing that opportunity awaited anyone simply willing to work hard, to fit in, to surrender everything that to him defined him as the other and in so doing lift up his whole family, to set an example.

Yes, the sad thing is, he became an example all right. A tragic one confirmed in every brown eye that recognizes that fear of the other, the fear that kills a black teenaged boy in Cincinnati, shot in the back because he ran from the cops, guilty of nothing more than accruing some parking tickets; the fear that tells little schoolgirls in France that they may not wear headscarves to school, as to declare a faith and culture we have not fashioned for her; the fear that hunted down and executed a young man in London named de Menezes as if he were that hated fox, killed him because he ran, because he wore "suspicious clothes", because he lived in the wrong neighborhood, spoke the wrong tongue, because his skin was the wrong color, because he looked for all the world like "the other" who would come to snuff us in our beds in the dead of night and expose the underbelly of our racist rage and fear.

No, Mr Bush, Mr Blair. "They" don't hate us for our freedoms, but they recognize hate when they see it -- it waits for them around every corner, every hour of every day. Waiting.

Rest in peace, Mr Jean Charles de Menezes.

[abb9]

44. Explanation

This shows the difference between Bush cos America and other countries,when the Israelis killed our citizen by deliberately,and repeatedly run over her with bulldozers,they were no call for an explanation from our government.
In fact I think that many here in America,mostly Bush supporters,those who think that this illegal war on iraq is justified except for us on DU felt it was justified,felt there were need fr a explanation since she was and ENEMY,or EVILDOER,for supporting the Palestinian rights to not have their homes bulldozed.

[Sgent]

51. What are the chances

That if 1 week after 9/11, an airplane had a catastrophic comm failure and diverted towards DC, it would have been shot down?

Fairly good.

If it walks, quacks, and waddles like a duck, its usually a duck, but sometimes its a goose.

This was a terrible accident. I'm not sure, until we at least have the results of an investigation, that we should judge those involved.