Shooting victim had expired visa: BBC

[emad]

The Brazilian man shot dead by police who mistook him for a suicide bomber in south London had been in Britain on an out-of-date visa, officials say.

Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, may have run from police because of his visa situation, BBC correspondents say.

The electrician had come to the UK on a student visa, which allows people to work for a small number of hours.

Relatives of Mr Menezes deny his visa had expired and are considering suing over the Stockwell Tube shooting.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4713753.stm

[bushisanidiot]

1. No crime too small for the patriotic pistol toting puppeteers!

bang bang bang bang bang

oopsie. no bomb.

[saigon68]

41. Operation Kill the "Brown Man" in England

I'm sure any tourist from Brazil etc. Will be DYING TO VISIT Blair's cesspool

[emad]

2. Police face huge claim for damages as officers give up guns

Police face huge claim for damages as officers give up guns
By Stewart Tendler, Crime Correspondent



WITHIN hours of the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes at Stockwell the three police marksmen handed in their guns and moved to non-operational duties. The highly trained officers will be confined to office duties or unarmed work, their authorisations to use guns unused in their files.



The rules for investigating a shooting by police are rigid. The officers must not handle guns until the conclusion of the investigation by the Independent Police Complaints Commmission (IPCC) on whether the officer who fired the shots and his colleagues acted correctly.

If the officers are judged to have done so, they will return to active duties. If not, they face a disciplinary hearing or suspension and criminal prosecutions on charges of murder, manslaughter or failing to carry out their duties properly.

The results will go to an inquest, the Crown Prosecution Service and Paul Stephenson, the Deputy Commissioner in overall charge of discipline within the Metropolitan Police.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,170-1707466,00.html

[pinerow]

10. It seems the Brits can teach U.S law enforcement a few things

about responsibility and accountability...

[Mairead]

20. Namely: everything!

If there's any small bit of okay-ness on the side of the UK government in this completely avoidable tragedy, it's that Britain still has remnants of their ages-old respect for playing fair and owning up.

Those principles hardly get more than lip service in the US.

[endarkenment]

24. they have not even started to own up.

All they have admitted to is what they could no longer deny: that de Menezes was the wrong guy and was a complete innocent. There is a long list of associated lies that were uttered friday, and unanswered questions about exactly what this incident was really about.

[Mairead]

30. You might be right -- we'll have to wait and see how much

whitewash is ordered by Number 10.

[LisaL]

53. What responsibility and accountability?

THere is nothing they can do that will bring the dead guy back.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

42. I liked this phrase, "three police marksmen". How much of a....

..."marksman" does one have to be to shoot a man in the head while he's being held down?

[LisaL]

54. Well, the marksman didn't shoot the others in the hands or

feet. So, I would say, he is good enough.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

64. Good enough to murder a young man who wasn't guilty of anything?

[fujiyama]

44. This is good news

Atleast these trigger happy thugs won't be on the streets any longer.

[TroglodyteScholar]

3. Whew, I was afraid the killing was unjustified! (eom)

:sarcasm:

[Missy M]

4. I guess that will teach everyone to get their visa's updated!!

[tblue37]

57. Remember that scene in

Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade where Indiana Jones, dressed as a waiter, throws a Nazi out of the dirigible. Then he notices all the other passengers staring at him, and he says, "No ticket." Immediately every single person on board pulls out his/her ticket and thrusts it at him.

[kestrel91316]

59. Well they can try, but ..................

by definition aren't all people with expired visas considered to BE terrorists??

[alcibiades_mystery]

5. Oh, in that case, maybe he was a terrorist...

BABU: You had my Visa application?!
JERRY: Well not technically.
BABU: I kill you!!
JERRY: Well what about her?
BABU: I kill both of you!!
JERRY: Babu?!
BABU: No Babu! No Babu! You bad man! You very bad man! You very lazy bad man!

[yorkiemommie1]

6. my husband who is still solidly for * and the war

said something like 'it's a shame this guy was shot '

i said, 'well we're fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them over here'.... which is what he always tells me.

no answer from dh.

[jojo54]

9. Oh, I feel sorry for you yorkiemommie 1.

If you ever need to vent, PM me and I'll listen, believe me! My hub isn't Rep but just as bad in other ways.

[yorkiemommie1]

48. i barely spoke to him for months

even tho i tried to educate him.

every time someone mentions the election, he pipes up real loud,
" I VOTED FOR BUSH!!! "


he has a grandson who just enlisted in the marines. we shall see.


thanks for the offer, and it holds for you too!

:)

[jojo54]

7. Oh, I see......

they checked the local immigration board, found out his visa was expired, and decided to use him as a scapegoat.....hmmmmm.

[rocktivity]

8. If it's true it explains why he panicked

or maybe he was worried about being whisked to some prison camp without being charged or having access to a lawyer.

:(
rocknation

[endarkenment]

12. I do not believe the 'he panicked and ran' story.

It contradicts the 'we had to blow his brains out in case he had a bomb' story. If the special tactics team thought he was a suicide bomber they would not have attempted a standard arrest in the train station, they would not have, for example. identified themselves as police and ordered him to stop and submit. Doing so would have carried too much risk of detonation.

Mr. de Menezes, once the team had decided to move on him, was a dead man no matter what he did.

[rocktivity]

34. It's meant to JUSTIFY the "We had to blow his brains out" story

"He panicked and ran because he had a visa problem, so we had to assume he was dangerous and blow his brains out." The problem is that the article says he only MAY have had a visa problem--the least they could have done was confirm it one way or the other!

:headbang:
rocknation

[Karenina]

35. They KNEW he was NOT the droid they sought...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1707480,00.html

"There are eight separate flats in the block. When Mr Menezes emerged from the communal front door just after 9.30am, the police must have realised from the photographs they carried that he was not one of the four bombers. Even so they decided that he was “a likely candidate” to follow because of his demeanour and colour, so one group set off on foot after him."

[alcibiades_mystery]

11. England, Half English

My mother was half English and I’m half English too
I’m a great big bundle of culture tied up in the red white and blue
I’m a fine example of your Essex man
And I’m well familiar with the Hindustan
Cos my neighbours are half English and I’m half English too

My breakfast was half English and so am I you know
I had a plate of Marmite soldiers washed down with a cappuccino
And I have a veggie curry about once a week
The next day I fry it up as bubble and squeak
Cos my appetites half English and I’m half English too

Dance with me to this very English melody
From morris dancing to Morrissey,
all that stuff came from across the sea

Britannia, she’s half English, she speaks Latin at home
St George was born in the Lebanon, how he got here I don’t know
And those three lions on your shirt,
They never sprang from England’s dirt
Them lions are half English and I’m half English too

Le-li Umma le-li-ya, le-li Umma le-li-ya,
Le-li Umma le-li-ya, bledi g’desh akh! le-li-ya

Oh my country, what a beautiful country you are

- Billy Bragg

[endarkenment]

13. Fascist framing "shoot to live"

Heard on the bbc on the way to work this morning. These teams don't have 'shoot to kill orders' they have 'shoot to live orders'. Thus the bullshit framing begins.

1984 was just off by 20 years.

[Laughing Mirror]

14. If he had expired visa why was he recently allowed to enter the country?

Friends of Mr Menezes in London said he had recently returned to Brazil for eight months to be with his father, who was being treated for cancer.

I don't know why British customs would let a Brazilian enter on an expired student visa, unless he entered on a tourist or some other kind of visa. This needs further explanation.

[melissinha]

15. WTF

I don't give a rat's ass that he was running or that maybe it was cause his student visa had expired... you don't knwo why people run.... maybe a person had something illegal, still no reason.

I am disgusted, and let me tell you.... Brasil isn't happy. As a brazilian I am horrified.... I also can tell you that he may also have been "profiled" Looks brazilian to me but to others???

[alarcojon]

16. He was definitely profiled

and I share in the anger of the Brasilian people.

I'm Ecuadorean-American and have been mistaken for Palestinian, Iraqi, and Afghani (among other things), so I feel a personal stake in this.

[melissinha]

17. as you should

unfortunately...

I'm so sorry, what is this world coming too? all in the name of Halliburton and the oil companies, disgusting!

[Karenina]

49. And YOURS is the very point

that so many on this board do not comprehend. In one of Jean's photos, he resembles a "child" VERY near and dear to me. When I saw it I had such a horrific visceral response. We're lumped together into this DANGEROUS MONOLITH OF "OTHER" to be dealt with as such by those who would excuse themselves with "OOPS, couldn't be helped."

The plainsclothesmen KNEW he was NOT their suspect when he came out of the flat. Had they possessed more refined ID skills and offed a "Paki," their message would have been sent and we would NOT be having this discussion today.

[leftofthedial]

18. if you don't want to be shot as a terrorist

don't have dark skin.

[D-Notice]

19. Take the Michael Jackson route!

Plastic surgery will remove any suspicion of being a "terrorist"

[LisaL]

21. But people might start thinking you are an alien. And not the

illegal kind.

[D-Notice]

31. Well as long as you're

"white"-skinned you'll be safe from a police shooting...

[lockdown]

22. Ha, now "officials" has been updated to "security sources"

in the article. When this came out earlier I could have sworn I heard them say on BBC24 "his cousin has denied police claims" that his visa had expired. They didn't repeat it, but the update above suggests I heard right.

[endarkenment]

23. I continue to insist that he was never given a chance

once the decision had been made to take him out I believe that there was no attempt to get him to surrender. Why would they warn a suicide bomber, in a crowded train station, that they were going to arrest him? Instead, he had no chance, the decision had been made, de Menezes was going to die.

[Romulus]

25. still waiting to hear why he was allowed on the bus

since he was so "suspicious." :eyes:

[Laughing Mirror]

26. As long as the police policy is "shoot to kill" any suspect

You may be right. I wouldn't be surprised if it happens again.

[lockdown]

29. I feel the same way

This unit's job was specifically to stop suicide bombers and I don't think arrests are what they're trained to do. Under updated guidelines, they aren't even required to issue a warning before shooting.

[lockdown]

43. Oh, and now the source has changed to BBC's Danny Shaw...

BBC home affairs correspondent Danny Shaw said the type of visa Mr Menezes had been given would normally be valid for one-and-a-half to two years.

He said Mr Menezes had not renewed the visa, adding: "That wouldn't explain why he was shot, but it might provide an explanation as to why he ran away if - that is indeed what he did do."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4713753.stm

Googling bbc "danny shaw" seems to give a lot of police related stories, like him being asked to comment on police measures needed against al-Qaeda, oh, and he also passed on an earlier rumour that Menezes was an accomplice of the bombers.

Disgusting that the police are trying to blame Menezes.

On edit: "security sources" are still cited, Shaw's visa expertise has been added in support.

[lockdown]

51. And finally, "suggestions attributed to police sources"

The BBC reported family denials of suggestions attributed to police sources that Mr Menezes had been in the UK on an out-of-date student visa.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2005/0726/229991359HM1MIILLAR.html

Note to self, BBC's Danny Shaw is a police mouthpiece.

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

27. Well, in that case..........they should have shot him 7 times in the head.

Having an expired visa is NO EXCUSE FOR COLD-BLOODED MURDER!

Terrorism IS NOT NEW. But, the kneejerk responses to terrorism towards state-controlled police actions; killing on the presumption of being guilty; and pre-emptive wars are new.

The terrorist HAVE WON. Freedom HAS LOST.

JB

[kaya33]

28. ..yet we still enforce the shoot to kill mentality...wtf.

I hear the Londoners are wearing t-shirts that say"Don't shoot...I'm not Barazilian!" At least they are fired up, and will hopefully demand answers.

[fujiyama]

46. I must admit

Those British have a great dry humor about them.

[sidpleasant]

32. I don't get the "shout a warning" aspect of this

If the police really thought that the unfortunate Mr. Menezes was a suicide bomber then it seems highly illogical to give him a warning which risks provoking him to set off the bomb. Wouldn't it make more sense to walk up behind him in the station crowd and shoot him at the base of the skull? That's what SWAT snipers are trained to do in cases where someone is being held hostage with a gun to them. Such a shot severs the spinal cord and prevents any dying trigger pulls or button pushes. What were the Brits thinking - yell a warning and if he panics they'll know he's a terrorist?

[lockdown]

33. Police say they gave a warning

but witnesses didn't hear a warning, and the guidelines don't require one. (Though as another poster pointed out, if all the witnesses were on the train and platform it's possible a warning came earlier.)

By far the most controversial claim comes from a number of witnesses who have cast doubt on police statements that they shouted a warning or identified themselves to the suspect before opening fire.

Lee Ruston, 32, who was on the platform, said that he did not hear any of the three shout “police” or anything like it. Mr Ruston, a construction company director, said that he saw two of the officers put on their blue baseball caps marked “police” but that the frightened electrician could not have seen that happen because he had his back to the officers and was running with his head down.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,22989-1707480,00.html

The police deployment of firearms is governed by a manual published by the Association of Police Officers, last revised in February 2005.

It is not true to say that police officers must identify themselves or shout a warning when confronting a suspect believed to pose a grave and imminent threat.

The manual says that that procedure "should be considered" but recognises that the key aim of an operation is to "identify, locate, contain and neutralise" the threat posed.

In many situations, this would require the suspect to stop moving and put his hands in view.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4708373.stm

The Met says that the officers shouted a warning to the man but he carried on running down the escalators to the platform. To the horror of commuters, the officers shot him repeatedly in the head after he ran into a train.

In doing so, they were following the rules laid out under Operation Kratos, which was devised by Scotland Yard's anti-terrorist branch to deal with suicide bombers. Kratos (named after the Greek god of strength) was developed in the light of Israeli experiences of tackling suicide bombers.

Guidance to officers on the deployment of firearms was last updated by the Association of Chief Police Officers in February. Officers do not have to identify themselves before firing but it "should be considered". The advice concludes that an officer should not open fire unless "that officer is satisfied that nothing short of opening fire could protect the officer or another person from imminent danger to life or serious injury".

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/article301234.ece

[kestrel91316]

60. (tapping police on shoulder) .................

Excuse me officer, but WHY would you shout out a warning to a terrorist with a suicide bomb? Why wouldn't you just sneak up on him and assassinate him quietly so he would have no chance to start running?

Still waiting for an answer, officer. Officer?

Oh, I see. You might wind up killing an innocent person?

Of course. Nevermind.

[ngGale]

67. What if one is deaf, FGS - n/t

[Media_Lies_Daily]

40. That tactic wouldn't work with a "dead man's switch", would it?

[LisaL]

47. I don't think they yelled any warnings.

The witnesses who saw the police (or should I say armed men in plain clothes) chasing this guy didn't hear them yelling any warnings.

[LisaL]

52. delete

[Redstone]

58. That's a hell of a good question, and one that I've

not heard anyone else ask.

I'd be interested in any explanations that anyone can offer you.

Redstone

[0rganism]

36. Well, that's enough like a bomb for Scotland Yard

"We searched the body, sir."

"And? What did you find?"

"No bombs or weapons, sir, but..."

"Well? Out with it man!"

"He had an expired visa, sir."

"Good Lord! It's a good thing you stopped him dead, then. Those are deadlier than dynamite in the wrong hands. I'm putting you all up for commendations."

[slackmaster]

37. That might explain why he ran rather than stopping when ordered to stop

Bummer for him.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

39. Maybe it was being chased by scruffy armed men in plainclothes that....

...made him run.

[Jax]

61. uh huh yeah...

I expect that is b*sh's response too.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

38. Yet another red herring launched to confuse the basics of this story.

[emad]

45. Basics = it was a public execution in a country with no

death penalty

[daleo]

55. Possibly a "send a message to the terrorists" execution

That went horribly wrong. Although either way it would have been an illegal death squad.

I used the word possibly, because I don't really know. But it gets harder and harder for me to construe this as a simple mistake and panicked shooting of an assumed suicide bomber.

[zara]

50. oh a scofflaw--that makes it alright I 'spose....

[Chicago Democrat]

56. Die! Visa violator Die!

as Justice is not served

[1932]

62. Parliament should pass a law acknowledging that terror-related arrests

are warrantless and that any evidence gathered in the course of a search of person that has no connection to terror cannot be used against that person in any other proceding.

[KamaAina]

63. British cops apparently can read a visa at forty paces

while it's still inside a man's wallet!

Can we please have them come over here and train our cops, too? :sarcasm:

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

65. Or, at least he does now

:shrug:

[ngGale]

66. And how many illegals do we have in the US ...

there could be a lot of people running away from the police. Foretelling our future, after our next little incident. :scared: