Plan for Dalai Lama lecture angers (Chinese) neuroscientists(The Guardian)

[Up2Late]

(It is wise to remember that this protest is being organized by a Chinese Scientist. The Dalai Lama has long been regarded by China as an enemy of China and this Scientist has most likely grown up being taught that the teachings of the Dalai Lama are dangerous.)

Plan for Dalai Lama lecture angers neuroscientists

David Adam, science correspondent
Wednesday July 27, 2005
The Guardian

The Dalai Lama is at the centre of an unholy row among scientists over his plans to deliver a lecture at a prominent neuroscience conference. His talk stems from a growing interest in how Buddhist meditation may affect the brain, but researchers who dismiss such studies as little more than mumbo-jumbo say they will boycott the Society for Neuroscience annual meeting in November if it goes ahead.

Jianguo Gu, a neuroscientist at the University of Florida who has helped to organise a petition against the Dalai Lama's lecture, said: "I don't think it's appropriate to have a prominent religious leader at a scientific event. "The Dalai Lama basically says the body and mind can be separated and passed to other people. (WRONG, he does NOT say that!) There are no scientific grounds for that. We'll be talking about cells and molecules and he's going to talk about something that isn't there."

Dr Gu and many of the scientists who initiated the protest are of Chinese origin, but say their concern are not related to politics. The Dalai Lama has lived in exile in India since he fled Chinese troops in Tibet in 1959. "I'm not against Buddhism," said Dr Gu, who has cancelled his own presentation at the meeting. "People believe what they believe but I think it will just confuse things."

The Dalai Lama has long had an interest in science and once said that if he had not been a monk he would have been an engineer. Over the past decade he has encouraged western neuroscientists to study the effects of Buddhist meditation, originally through meetings at his home and more recently by attending conferences at major US universities.

<http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,2763,1536642,00.html?gusrc=rss>
(more at link above)

[whistle]

1. Well, the Dali Lama should have put his heart's desire where his

....mouth is and stayed in Tibet instead of fleeing. The communists would have gladly allowed him to become an engineer, by giving him free college education and work. Instead, he picked a profession that exploits the faith of buddhist followers and extracts millions of dollars from their gullibility. Neuro-scientists ought to be opposed to such non-scientific teachings and clatter that add nothing but confusion and diversion of focus from the true objectives and goals of their profession.

[nosmokes]

4. yeah, those chinese communists are so community minded,

especially to tibetans. sheesh.

[Up2Late]

6. Ahh, such an closed minded post and wrong on every point, where to begin?

1) "...Dali Lama should have... ...stayed in Tibet instead of fleeing...."

Wrong, if He had stayed in China, He would most likely still be in Prison or, more likely already be dead, due to the regular torture and ill treatment they give to the Tibetan Buddhists they have in prison. This would be of no benefit to anyone.

2) "...The communists would have gladly allowed him to become an engineer, by giving him free college education and work..."

I doubt he would have made it though University, as he would have still have felt the need to teach Buddhism, which would have landed him in prison for teaching "religious views."


3) "...Instead, he picked a profession that exploits the faith of buddhist followers and extracts millions of dollars from their gullibility...."

Wrong. Tibetan Buddhism does not operate on the the principle of "Faith."

I will have to assume that when you say "...extracts millions of dollars from their gullibility..." that you are talking about the "NY Times best selling books (and the lesser selling books) with "H.H. The Dalai Lama" listed as the author. In fact, most of these books are not written BY the Dalai Lama. Most are interviews with or speeches by H.H. The Dalai Lama, which the author has written about, using the actual words of H.H. liberally through out the book.

The books The Dalai Lama has actually written are books that throughly explain different Buddhist teachings and principles, some of which do take an entire book to explain fully. The "gullible," if they do not find the books insightful and well reasoned, are fully able to throw it in the trash or what ever else they deem appropriate. Most don't because, almost without exception, they are fascinating and full of common sense knowledge.

"...Neuro-scientists ought to be opposed to such non-scientific teachings and clatter that add nothing but confusion and diversion of focus from the true objectives and goals of their profession...."

4) This is not the first time The Dalai Lama has met with Psychiatrists and Neuro-scientists. in the late 1980's and through out the 1990's, the The Dalai Lama repeatedly met with Scientist at several "Mind and Life Conferences" which were held both in the United Stated and in Asia. Several are the subject of excellent books.

One, that I have read, is called "Consciousness at the Crossroads" which recounts the 2nd annual M&L Conference in 1989. Another book (that I have read), recounts the 4th Mind and Life Conference and is called "Sleeping, Dreaming, and Dying." I'm sure their are others, but I don't remember their titles.

He has also spoken with Christian leaders on several occasions. In the book "The Good Heart -- A Buddhist Perspective on the Teachings of Jesus," which recalls the 1994 John Main Seminar, where he was asked to interpret several teachings from the Christan Bible and gives some of the most amazing interpretations of the Gospel I've ever read or heard. Interpretations that left little doubt in my mind, of his brilliance.

So what, in you opinion, is the "...true objectives and goals of their profession...? I think if you ask most Scientists and Neuro-scientists, they would tell you that their main "...objectives and goals..." are research and learning, and learning requires an "Open Mind," something you obviously don't have.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

21. A religious leader going into scientific theory?

And that's just fine, right?

Guess Creationism is legitimate, then.

[Jersey Ginny]

30. Buddism makes no comment on god

The Buddha was a man who, through meditation became "enlightened." He said that you can't prove or disprove the existance of God, so lets move on. The Dalai Lama isn't making up stories like the right wing christians do (intelligent design crap) and then building facts around them. Meditation is used by religious and non religious people and it's effects on the mind and body are worthy of study. He's coming to Rutgers in September and I am looking forward to hearing him talk. He's one of the worlds great leaders.

[Jackpine Radical]

32. Hate to say it, old boy, but your ignorance and bigotry are showing.

I have heard the Dalai Lama speak, and I know some of the cognitive neuroscientists he hangs out with. They find him to be their intellectual peer, and a delight to converse with. HH is no Eastern Jerry Falwell. He is an eager, inquisitive, flexible, brilliant, witty, and eminently humane person for whom I have the greatest respect. He would never leap to conclusions about you in the way that you have about him.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

39. I'm a skeptic, that's all.

That doesn't equal bigotry and ignorance.

I fully believe him to be intelligent. I have nothing personally against him. I just think there's this cult of personality around him that puts him on a pedestal. I don't think the history of Tibet (pre-China annexation) makes the Dalai Lama better than all of us.

And I won't even get into how Steven Seagal is considered a Tibetan Buddhist holy man. One of only 30 people to be a "tulku?" And one is Steven Seagal?

[HuckleB]

41. That may be true.

However, your initial post shows much more than mere skepticism. Dropping the "creationism" comment, out of context, on top of insinuating that no "religious leader" could possibly have a legitimate interest in science does not equal skepticism, IMHO. It seems much more like a sharing of one's intact and currently static belief system. That said, I understand that you may have intended it to come across differently.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

46. I appreciate your comments.

I just get uncomfortable when religious leaders get involved in science. Hence my referral to creationism.

[BuddhaGirl]

42. Steven Seagal bought his title of Rinpoche

he is not a tulku.

And the Dalai Lama would be the first to tell you that he is "not better than all of us."

You apparently don't know much at all about the Tibet/China/Dalai Lama situation.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

45. Selling titles tells me enough.

Apparently you are misinformed as well.

"In the case of Steven Seagal, he has been formally recognized as a tulku."
http://www.elevenshadows.com/tibet/seagal10-97.htm

"Rinpoche declared Seagal a tulku and a "terton" (someone with the abilities to perceive the root teachings of Tibetan Buddhism) in Feburary."
http://www.eonline.com/News/Items/0,1,1321,00.html

And I'm assuming you meant "title FROM Rinpoche," since Peter Rinpoche gave him the title.

And I know the Dalai Lama would not say he is better than us. It is those of us who act as if he IS superior that trouble me.

[Bosso 63]

10. I wrote a thesis on Buddhist meditation for my M.A. in psych

I would respectfully suggest that the small body of research on the subject does not support your position.

[SpiralHawk]

2. Seek the Middle Path, Grasshopper

There are fewer fear-turds there to foul your footwear.

[jasmeel]

3. I'm going to the conference (as I do every year) and was so

excited when I heard that he was coming! How inspirational. One other year we had Christopher Reeve and it was really very emotional. He basically was pleading with us to find a cure to spinal cord injuries. I don't work in that area but I wished I could've helped.

[Up2Late]

11. That's Awesome, I'd love to go...

...Need any riders from Atlanta to Florida?

Have you read any of the Books written about any of the "Mind and Life Conferences" from the 1980's and 1990's? As I wrote above, two of the book titles are "Consciousness at the Crossroads," from 1989 and "Sleeping, Dreaming, and Dying," from October 1992? I think their are a few more, but I don't remember the titles.

[northzax]

44. it just seems like a strange choice

for a scientific conference to have a keynote from someone way outside the scientific field. The Dalai Lama may be a brilliant man, but he's certainly no neuroscientist, why introduce religion into the conversation at all? what is the arguement against having the head of the Discovery Foundation next year?

[Trillo]

5. What is the truth.

"The Dalai Lama basically says the body and mind can be separated and passed to other people. (WRONG, he does NOT say that!)

Why does Gu sate this if it's untrue? Is it simply indoctrination leading to incorrect and inaccurate belief? Or is there a deliberate pseudo skeptic political agenda? Or is Gu summarizing some concept based upon his own understanding of Lama's communication?

[Up2Late]

7. I think it is mainly your last two points, what Gu said in that quote...

...(and yes, it could come from a less than fluent use of the English language or could just be poorly translated) but as read, it its a 100% mis-representation of the teachings of The Dalai Lama and The Buddha. He (Gu) has taken one of the basic teachings of The Buddha, which would take most Lamas (in India they are called Gurus) pages and pages of text (or hours of teaching) to fully explain with adequate clarity, and dismissively sums it up in one, very wrong statement.

It's as if I (an American) were to sum up the history and character of England and all of it's people (past and present) as, "Well, they had a bunch of Kings who killed and tortured a lot of people, and now Tony Blair is Prime-Minister, and that's who the English are and what they stand for.

[MetaTrope]

8. More to the point, the "Chinese scientist" is from Florida

Need we say more?

[Kraklen]

9. Sure.

You could explain that he works in Florida but is very much Chinese.

I sympathize with the guy. Having the Dalai Lama talk at a neuroscience convention is like having the Pope lecture at an infectious disease convention.

[KittyWampus]

12. How So? Tibetan Buddhism Is A Form Of Mental Science. Meditation

is a form of Mental Activity.

Compared to Tibetan Buddhism and Qabalism, Modern Western "Science" is comprised of a bunch of pikers when it comes to studying and practising any branch of Mental Science.

[Disturbed]

13. Tibet has been hyped as a Wonderful Place..

before the China Occupation.

"But what of the Dalai Lama and the Tibet he presided over before the Chinese crackdown in 1959? It is widely held by many devout Buddhists that Old Tibet was a spiritually oriented kingdom free from the egotistical lifestyles, empty materialism, and corrupting vices that beset modern industrialized society. Western news media, travel books, novels, and Hollywood films have portrayed the Tibetan theocracy as a veritable Shangri-La.

The Dalai Lama himself stated that "the pervasive influence of Buddhism" in Tibet, "amid the wide open spaces of an unspoiled environment resulted in a society dedicated to peace and harmony. We enjoyed freedom and contentment."4 A reading of Tibet's history suggests a different picture. In the thirteenth century, Emperor Kublai Khan created the first Grand Lama, who was to preside over all the other lamas as might a pope over his bishops. Several centuries later, the Emperor of China sent an army into Tibet to support the Grand Lama, an ambitious 25-year-old man, who then gave himself the title of Dalai (Ocean) Lama, ruler of all Tibet. Here is quite a historical irony: the first Dalai Lama was installed by a Chinese army.

To elevate his authority beyond worldly challenge, the first Dalai Lama seized monasteries that did not belong to his sect, and is believed to have destroyed Buddhist writings that conflicted with his claim to divinity. The Dalai Lama who succeeded him pursued a sybaritic life, enjoying many mistresses, partying with friends, and acting in other ways deemed unfitting for an incarnate deity. For this he was done in by his priests. Within 170 years, despite their recognized status as gods, five Dalai Lamas were murdered by their high priests or other courtiers."


"Many ordinary Tibetans want the Dalai Lama back in their country, but it appears that relatively few want a return to the social order he represented. A 1999 story in the Washington Post notes that he continues to be revered in Tibet, but
. . . few Tibetans would welcome a return of the corrupt aristocratic clans that fled with him in 1959 and that comprise the bulk of his advisers. Many Tibetan farmers, for example, have no interest in surrendering the land they gained during China's land reform to the clans. Tibet's former slaves say they, too, don't want their former masters to return to power."

"I've already lived that life once before," said Wangchuk, a 67-year-old former slave who was wearing his best clothes for his yearly pilgrimage to Shigatse, one of the holiest sites of Tibetan Buddhism. He said he worshipped the Dalai Lama, but added, "I may not be free under Chinese communism, but I am better off than when I was a slave."


http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

[Up2Late]

31. That article and the author who "wrote" it, is a Joke, total BS

If you look at the foot notes (and the article objectively) you would see it's a "cut and paste" job, produced by Michael Parenti, who's biggest claim to fame is "Project Censored," which "Mother Jones Magazine" rightfully dismissed as a Joke almost 5 years ago: <http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2000/04/projectcensored.html>

From his writings, he demonstrates little knowledge of Tibet.

Also, all his "non-specific" credits, awards and achievements he sights in his bio, are a sure sign of a fraud. The guys a name dropper, and not very impressive names at that. If he was ever respectable, Michael Parenti has long ago "Jumped the Shark."

Here's his bio (with the list of his books edited out) from his website:

Michael Parenti has won awards from Project Censored, the Caucus for a New Political Science, New Jersey Peace Action, the city of Santa Cruz, and various academic and political organizations. He also serves on the board of judges for Project Censored, and on the advisory boards of Independent Progressive Politics Network, Education Without Borders, and the Jasenovic Foundation; as well as the advisory editorial boards of New Political Science and Nature, Society and Thought.

Some 250 articles of his have appeared in scholarly journals, political periodicals and various magazines and newspapers.

He appears on radio and television talk shows to discuss current issues and ideas from his published works. Dr. Parenti's talks and commentaries are played on radio stations and cable community access stations to enthusiastic audiences in the U.S., Canada and abroad.

He lectures on college campuses and before a wide range of audiences across North American and abroad. His books are enjoyed by both lay readers and scholars, and have been used extensively in college courses....:eyes:

[Kraklen]

14. No, it's a religion. Nothing to do with science.

Pretending otherwise is an insult to science and tibetan buddhism.

[kodi]

18. the 1st precept in science: admit ignorance. the next: "let's find out"

there is sufficient question as to the power of meditation to accept there exists the possibility that the affect of meditation can be explained scientifically.

as one trained as a physical scientist, i am more insulted that you think you know what science is such that objectively examining the power of meditation insults science.

[anotherdrew]

26. have you even read the recent findings on the effect of mediation?

look in NewScientist, he's got something to talk about that is scientifically measurable, so it's not a fail analogy.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

15. Tibet wasn't a great place before China took over.

The Dalai Lama and his followers ran a non-democratic country. The people of Tibet were (and admittedly still are) poor and oppressed. It was a theocracy, and my understanding is progressives are against that sort of thing.

The Chinese are just continuing the oppression.

See the "Penn & Teller Bullshit" episode "Holier Than Thou."

This "peaceful" man took hundreds of thousands of dollars from the CIA for Tibetan guerrillas. Is that compatible with Buddhist teachings?

[riverwalker]

29. Penn and Teller

Now, there's a couple of devoted students of Tibetan Buddhism for ya. :eyes:
Any of you experts ever meet or actually talk to any Tibetans? Minnesota has a very large population of Tibetans, I work with them. They would crawl on glass for five miles just to hear him speak. I was at the U of M when he came to speak, back when Paul Wellstone introduced him on the stage. I've seen their faces, he IS Tibet to these refugees. It (Tibetan Buddhism) is about freedom, not oppression, and I don't just mean political freedom.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

38. The religion is unimportant. It's about power.

And Iranians loved the Ayatollah, that didn't make him any less of a dictator. Hell, when I was in the Philippines in '02, I talked to a lot of people who LOVED Ferdinand Marcos and missed him greatly. Even people who had been very young when he was deposed.

I'd also add that Tibetan students studying here would be of the privledged class, or else they wouldn't be able to afford to study here.

[PittPoliSci]

40. i'm sorry...

You don't have to be a devoted student of Tibetan Buddhism to understand history.

I think that if the Lama and his followers were about freedom, perhaps elections before Chinese Communist rule would've occurred.

I guess they were too busy in their caste system to realize what freedom was before the overlords were stripped of their power by the equally treacherous communists. Sorry if I'm not so sympathetic toward the plea of the monks.

[Up2Late]

43. I'm not going to defend the Political system of Tibet, pre-1959...

...even the Dalai Lama has admitted that pre-1959 Tibetan society needed to be changed and adapt to the modern world, but what the Chinese Government is currently doing in Tibet (and the issue that most "Free Tibet" advocates want changed), is very similar to what the U.S. Government did to the Indigenous people of America (N,C,and S). It's the wholesale destruction of an indigenous culture and people.

It is my belief, and I think others are beginning to see, that the indigenous people of America (Navajo especially) are direct decedents of the Tibetans and other Central Asian people, who migrated to America Thousands of years ago. The loss of this original culture and people, I feel, is quite tragic.

Since China invaded Tibet, they killed 1,000,000+ (1 million) Tibetans, out of a total population of approx. 6,000,000, killing or forcing the societal elders and leaders to flee, and then moving (re-settling) large numbers of Chinese people in an effort to dilute and eliminate the Traditional Tibetan culture, very similar to what Saddam did to the Kurds in Northern Iraq. An effort which is achieving it's goal.

They also forced Tibetan Farmers to grow Wheat instead of the traditional Barley. Barley is a crop that will grow in the unusual growing conditions found in Tibet, were as the Chinese Wheat will NOT grow to maturity in Tibet. This has caused widespread hunger and malnutrition. They are also stripping Tibet of it's natural resources and using it as a place to dump it's toxic and Nuclear waste.

This, along with the criminalization of ALL Religions, which played a such a huge roll in Tibetan society, similar to the role the earth based religions played in the tribes of America, are just some of the bigger crimes committed against the people of Tibet. I'm not even going to go into the situation with the Panchen Lama, you can click on his picture below to find out more if you'd like.

This is an over simplification of the "Free Tibet" effort, but those are the basics of why we care.

[Jara sang]

16. The Dalai Lama is being used as a pawn by the US

That is the only reason why the CIA helped him escape. He is being used as leverage against the Chinese and he gives a face to Communist Chinese human rights abuses.

[HuckleB]

19. What does that have to do with this "disagreement"?

[Jara sang]

20. merely pointing that out to those that may not know it.

[HuckleB]

22. Why?

:shrug:

[Jara sang]

23. Is this thread not about the Dalai Lama?

[HuckleB]

24. This thread's about whether or not it is appropriate for the Dalai Lama...

to speak at a science conference, and that question regards meditation, religion and possible affects on the brain. Your initial post doesn't have a thing to do with any of that.

[Jara sang]

33. So you are telling me I can't speak my mind?

[HuckleB]

35. LOL!

Yeah, that's what I wrote!

:rofl:
and
:eyes:

but mostly

:rofl:

[Milspec]

37. Well just jumping in here, No

It just sounds like your message is is at the end of a length of string and a tin can.

[HuckleB]

17. Sounds like a scientist who needs his name in the news.

Studying any possible changes that meditation may or may not bring to the brain is science and is valuable. Now, of course there are many "questionable" studies done every year, and a lot of them do still move knowledge forward, at least creating questions for other researchers to pursue. That said, having the Dalai Lama speak is probably more about jacking up general interest and energy in the conference, perhaps increasing the readership of the general population for the MSM pieces that will cover the conference. It's nothing to get up in arms about. That the Dalai Lama won't be presenting full-on, serious, "hard science" doesn't mean that what he says won't encourage questions that can lead to a better understanding of the brain and how environment affects it.

[anotherdrew]

27. he's scoring Brownie-points back home

[HuckleB]

25. An article on the Dawson research (and a couple others).

Meditation Gives Brain a Charge, Study Finds:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43006-2005Jan2.html

And another article on the Dalai Lama's dabbling into the "science of meditation."

Meditation and the Brain:
http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/04/02/newton0204.asp?p=1


Also, an interesting article via a PDF file regarding "The Neuroscience of Spirituality."

Go to:
http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/college/sig/spirit/publications/nl13_index.htm
Download PDF file #4.

[Fire Walk With Me]

28. Anything that changes someone's status quo is "dangerous".

Women voting was dangerous. (Relative) freedom for African-Americans from slavery was dangerous. A round Earth was dangerous. What are you gonna do.

[WhiteTara]

34. I have been reading a series of books

sponsered by the Dalia Lama, The current one is called Consciousness at the Crossroads (Snow Lion publisher) and it is beyond fascinating. I wish I could be at the conference just to hear him speak.

Thanks for the post Up2Late. :hi:

[HuckleB]

36. Brain-Based Values

http://www.americanscientist.org/template/BookReviewTypeDetail/assetid/44445;jsessionid=aaadFJI5-XVGMN