Depression linked to previously unknown dopamine regulator - (new Txs?)

[HuckleB]

Depression linked to previously unknown dopamine regulator - Hope for potential new target for antidepressants

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=28280

"Researchers from Harvard Medical School have found a molecule that is unexpectedly involved in dopamine signaling, and in a manner that supports the potential of dopamine as an alternative target for treating depression. The results provide evidence that there is a molecular link between impaired dopamine signaling and depression, which affects 16 percent of the adult population in the United States. The research appears in the July 29 issue of Cell.

Li-Huei Tsai, Harvard Medical School (HMS) professor of pathology, HMS research fellow Sang Ki Park, and colleagues worked with mice and found a novel function for the molecule Par-4 (prostate apoptosis response 4)--as a binding partner for dopamine receptor D2. When mice deficient in Par-4 were subjected to stress, they showed depression-like behaviors, proposing Par-4-as a molecular link between dopamine signaling and depression. Par-4 was previously implicated as a proapoptotic factor in neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer's disease. These new findings reveal an unexpected role for Par-4 in the dopamine system and present a rare glimpse of molecular mechanisms behind clinical depression.

"Current antidepression therapies are mostly based on the deficiency or imbalance of the serotonin and noradrenaline systems. Our study highlights the importance of the dopamine system, a less appreciated target in the current antidepression therapies," said Tsai, also a Howard Hughes Medical Institute investigator.

Although the cause of depression is multifaceted, a hypothesis based on deficiency or imbalance of serotonin and/or noradrenaline as the root of depression has been a central topic of research. Drugs that currently treat depression (SSRIs and MAOIs, which acutely modify levels of serotonin or noradrenaline at the synapse) have significant delays before becoming effective, and a large percentage of people are resistant to the current therapies, leaving room for improvement of therapeutic strategies.

..."


Perhaps a reason why adjunctive use of atypical antipsychotics sometimes provides relief for folks with refractory depression.

[Merlot]

1. Oh joy...another drug to "fix" depression is on its way

I wonder what the side effects of this on will be? Will they be as depressing as depression?

I just love the comercial for the anti-depressant where the guy stares right into the camera and happily says there are hardly any sexual side effects! That one's a hoot! Of course, he looks like a stepford husband, but who cares about the blank look in his eyes???

[shrike]

3. With all due respect

I have no doubt that CLINICAL depression is biologically based. I speak from personal experience. Therefore, I see nothing wrong with taking medication for depression the way my husband takes medication for his heart.

OTOH, I've read some interesting stuff about nutrition and herb-based treatments. Would like to see more research done on them in this country.

[xultar]

6. Don't pull a Tom Cruise. I suffer from depression along with my

father, grandfather and my great grandmother who committed suicide.

Depression is nothing to mess with. These drugs have helped lots of people when prescribed appropriately.

How can you base anything on actors in commercials?

IF you have any questions perhaps talking to someone who suffers from depression would help you to understand.

[wicket]

21. Amen!

[ninkasi]

40. I hope you've found something that helps...

Depression can, indeed, run in families. My uncle, on my father's side, a cousin, also on my father's side, and one of my brothers all committed suicide. My father was very depressed all of his life.

I take an antidepressant, and am not ashamed to admit that it has made a world of difference in how I can now cope with the world.

[xultar]

45. Yes! I've found something that helps and I'm proud of it too!

I take my meds every day and I'm not embarrassed!

[ninkasi]

60. Good for you!

Believe me, as one who has had to bury so many loved ones, I'll take meds any day over spiraling out of control and taking your own life. The guilt felt by the survivors is something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

I know I mentioned that a brother of mine had taken his life; our older brother, some years before, had been killed in an accident, and a few years later, within a space of about 8 months all 3 of his teenage sons were dead, in 2 separate accidents.

I have shed enough tears, and gone to enough funerals, to last me a lifetime. If people understand why you need medical help, fine...if not...f*** them. Do what you've got to do to stay sane, and here. I have 3 children, a stepchild, 4 grandchildren, and a greatgranddaughter. You better believe I'll take my meds, rather than have them go through the hell of guilt.

I'm glad you have found something that works for you. Good luck!

[HuckleB]

76. Rock and roll!

Stomp on stigma!

You're awesome.

Salud!

[Lorien]

66. I actually found a DEVICE that cured mine (25 years of clinical depression

GONE)! I tried nearly every drug and supplement out there before trying this as a last resort. I wish it would have been the FIRST thing that I tried:http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=276&topic_id=1649&mesg_id=1649

[yurbud]

82. wow--you trust actual science more than a lardass scifi writer who...

figured out how to scam gullible celebrities by hooking up their nipples to a battery charger and telling them secret stories about UFOs?


I have a family history of depression too (not as severe as yours), and when I hear people say that anti-medication shit, I am embarrassed for THEM.

Hillbilly Hitler art:



Blog:

[driver8]

133. Exactly! I am sick of people criticizing the anti-depressants when

they obviously don't have a fucking clue as to what they are talking about.

I have been taking Welbutrin for a couple of years. I can tell you that before I started on the meds, I was so depressed that I had a hard time just getting out of bed. Nothing brought me happiness and all I wanted to do was sleep and be left alone. Because of the meds I am taking, I have my life back.

Don't tell me to work out, run, find a hobby, etc...because that doesn't work. If you aren't an MD, please don't tell me that meds are unnecessary.

[kineneb]

142. I so agree

I have been on Paxil for almost 10 years. I would not be here if I did not have medication. Depressed people can not "pull themselves up by the bootstraps"; they can not even find their socks. I have been in so much mental pain that death looked good; and that was when I was 12.

Depression runs in my family, as well. Great-grandma killed herself at age 27, leaving behind a confused husband, and two small children, ages 4 (my grandmother) and 2. Grandma was (and Mom still is) a work-a-holic, so as to distract herself. When that was no longer possible, GMa sunk into a deep, psychotic depression, and slowly starved herself to death.

[wli]

11. perhaps a connection that needs to be highlighted

Anti-sex religious extremists and pharmaceuticals pushing drugs with "sexual side-effects" (i.e. effective chemical castration).

So, when a neocon fundie type pushes mass psych survey programs, pharmaceutical kickbacks, etc., bringing up the sexual side effects and their views on e.g. extramarital sex might help shape public opinion.

[HuckleB]

18. So...

what are you implying here?

[wli]

24. that they're using chemical castration as part of their anti-sex agenda

So basically, when you artificially link the issues in the "talking point," they are stuck with either looking like eugenicists or losing one of their "advantages" (either big pharma kickbacks or sexual puritanism fundie PR in their favor).

[HuckleB]

26. So...

Are you saying that "Big Pharma" is in the backpocket of right-wing religious fundamentalists? That this has led to "Big Pharma" directing researchers to devise medications with sexual side effects that will then be prescribed (apparently by fundamentalist psychiatrists and unethical psychiatrists who are somehow being paid by "Big Pharma") willy nilly to the general population in order to decrease the rate of sexual activity?

[wli]

28. no, the mere implication just looks bad

Point out two of the right wing's big funding sources in rapid succession, the implication comes out just by psychological association, and the neocons are forced to go spin-crazy.

[Psephos]

30. Your posts read like a textbook on fallacious arguments

You might check out this page if you're interested in avoiding these kinds of fallacies.

(No offense intended, btw.)

http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html

Peace.

[wli]

31. there is a deliberate fallacy in the association

It's a psychological PR ploy, not an argument per se. Or are you critiquing the construction of that ploy?

[HuckleB]

49. I'm really having a hard time understanding your point.

Sorry. I understand if you don't want to bother trying to clarify, but if you do, I appreciate it.

[wli]

56. I was trying to suggest a Karl Rove -style anti-Republican PR op

[HuckleB]

80. ?

:shrug:

[Rich Hunt]

137. yeah

Expect more defensiveness on this thread.

Anything to avoid thinking about sociopolitical factors that might cause people to feel depressed - FOR GOOD REASON.

[alarcojon]

17. Come check out the "blank look" in my eyes, pal

and be sure to read Xultar's post # 6.

[HuckleB]

96. LOL!

Whenever I hear that claim, I know that the claimant hasn't a clue. Heck, if there's a "blank look," it's more likely due to the depression than the antidepressant.

Salud.

[LeighAnn]

20. I agree. Sounds like more mumbo jumbo to me...$RX

Against Depression, a Sugar Pill Is Hard to Beat
Placebos Improve Mood, Change Brain Chemistry in Majority of Trials of Antidepressants

After thousands of studies, hundreds of millions of prescriptions and tens of billions of dollars in sales, two things are certain about pills that treat depression: Antidepressants like Prozac, Paxil and Zoloft work. And so do sugar pills.

A new analysis has found that in the majority of trials conducted by drug companies in recent decades, sugar pills have done as well as -- or better than -- antidepressants. Companies have had to conduct numerous trials to get two that show a positive result, which is the Food and Drug Administration's minimum for approval.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A42930-2002May6

My personal feeling is that antidepressants are garbage and responsible for the laissez faire attitude that has let Bush get away with mass murder, and that if adults with depression would actively work towards improving their sex lives they would get far better results against depression than they would by taking pills that are known to make people impotent. Good sex and sugar pills, that's the ticket.

[King Cozumel]

23. From someone who once suffered from depression...

From age 13 all the way until I was 23, I had bad depression... I've tried pharms, but i didn't like the way I felt on them. It was artificial. Then I discovered St. John's Wort. It didn't work for me at first, but when I changed my diet around, and took proper vitamins, I felt 100x better. Now I'm not saying that this will work for everyone, but I have yet to meet someone that it hasn't worked for. Meditation is also helpful. I'm 25 now, and the closest thing to a relapse I've had is maybe a day or two (non-consec) that I was depressed, but who DOESN'T have a day or two?? I believe there are some pharms that work, but all the side effects they cause and, on some of the more extreme meds, make the patient zombie-like. Anyhow, enough of my ramble. I'm just saying that depression CAN be cured without meds. Once again, not to offend anyone here, just stating MY experience with it.

[alarcojon]

25. Thanks for sharing your story

St. Johns Wort has worked for many. I am also a BIG advocate of meditation (vipassana) and lifestyle changes (diet, exercise, time management, etc.)

The Wort didn't work for me, but I am not at all offended by your statements. Anything that aims to remove the stigma of depression and related ailments is okay by me.

[Psephos]

29. No offense, but you sound like someone with no experience of depression

[LeighAnn]

32. Au contraire!

I dabbled with seeking help for depression when I was in my 20s, and was always struck by the fact that the people working in this field seemed as screwed up (if not moreso) as anyone else. I even almost took the Paxil I was prescribed, until I read the package insert and said, "Jesus!"

My parents have been using Zoloft for 10+ years, they are seemingly normal people who are strangely apathetic to things like politics, tragedy on a global scale, etc. Hard to get them worked up about much. And if, for some reason, they can't get a hold of their "meds" for a few days, they cry and carry on like there's been a death in the family. It looks to me to be a horrible addiction.

I'd use the placebos to be on the safe side.

[geebensis]

35. Here's another anecdotal data point for you...

My interest and passion for politics and world events haven't changed a bit since going on anti-depressants.

[driver8]

134. Mine, either...but I can tell you that I get raging headaches if I

skip my meds for a day. That is the one "side effect" that I hate.

[TommyO]

38. I did/do take Paxil

and for me it has been the difference between sitting at my desk, unable to function, and actually being productive at work and in my life. It's certainly not going to right for everybody, just as no antidepressant can meet everybody's needs.

[NickB79]

43. You "dabbled" in seeking help?

I had severe clinical depression, and I didn't "dabble" in seeking help. I was forced to go after I snapped one night and trashed my dorm room and my RA had to hold me down so I didn't jump out the window. After I was failing classes because I couldn't find the energy to simply write down a coherent sentence on the tests. After I was scaring all my friends around me by my very morbid and suicidal actions. Going on meds (I tried Paxil, Zoloft, Effexor, and Wellbutrin), along with extensive psychological counseling, was the only thing that kept me alive from age 19-24 and allowed me to graduate from college with good grades.

You're right, many of these drugs are addictive and you have to be weaned off of them. I suffered physical withdrawl symptoms when I forgot to refill my prescription from the campus clinic before a holiday break. I had to go to the hospital for medication to combat the intense nausea and pain that accompanied not taking my pills for a few days. But would I do it all over again? Hell yes, because I know I wouldn't be here today if my friends hadn't convinced me to get help.

[harpboy_ak]

104. what a total ignoramus!

My personal feeling is that antidepressants are garbage and responsible for the laissez faire attitude that has let Bush get away with mass murder, and that if adults with depression would actively work towards improving their sex lives they would get far better results against depression than they would by taking pills that are known to make people impotent.

if this was usenet i would killfile you, because it's obvious that you don't have a clue about mental illness of any kind. please stop spewing your ignorance here.

[eridani]

144. Sounds like one of those people--

--who think that hollering "Make more insulin, dammit" at diabetics is supposed to be therapy. Telling people with clinical depression to "Just cheer up and get over yourself" is about as effective.

[Susang]

27. Ask someone who's on Wellbutrin

That drug targets dopamine (and norepinephrine) and has been on the market for years now. Lesser side effects than SSRIs and is effective for ADHD, smoking cessation and weight loss as well as depression.

It really helps to know the subject more thoroughly than just having seen the commercial. Really.

[geebensis]

34. Yup, ask away...

I always scoffed at all the anti-depressants out there.

Then a bout of my recurring, mild depression turned into the full blown, scary, dark-as-hell kind.

After two YEARS of it (impossible to understand if you haven't experienced it) I finally sought help. I was prescribed Wellbutrin.

After two weeks on Wellbutrin I was shaking my head and wondering why I had spent the previous two years in such misery. Not that Wellbutrin is a "happy pill." All of the problems and stress of my life were all still there. They just no longer seemed insurmountable.

As for side-effects, I was frankly hoping for a little weight loss. I gained 5 lbs instead. Go figure.

My advice to anyone suffering depression is GET HELP. Today.

[driver8]

135. Your story could be mine. I suffered for about a year and a half

and finally told my doctor what was going on with me. He gave me a referral to a psychiatrist and I started on Celexa and then switched to Wellbutrin.

I was mad at myself for waiting so long to get help. I could have prevented a lot of misery.

[Merlot]

54. I'm not sure why you would assume I only know about depression

by watching a commercial. I know more about this subject than you can imagine. that's why I felt comfortable making the statements I did. I'm not "pulling a tom cruise" by stating that I think the pharmacutical company is making millions off of human misery and causing addiction.

And for those of you who think depression is hereditary, just think about the fact that if you were brought up by a depressed parent, chances are your childhood needs went unmet...causing depression.

How many times have I heard that depression is "just like diabetes" and can be fixed?

And, BTW, I did not say there aren't uses for anti-depressants. They are usefull for short-term problems and to pull you out of the depression. But like training wheels, you've got to learn to handle life and your depression by your self. Otherwise, what's the difference between taking a pill, or smoking pot every day?

[Dem2theMax]

64. Oh, so that's how this happened to me. Who da thunk it?

Not hereditary? It turns out my parents were depressed! Now I get it. Although neither one of them has ever shown a single sign of depression in their 80+ years so far. It's THEIR fault I'm depressed.

Short term problems? Wow. I didn't know having depression since the day I was born 48+ years ago, was a 'short term' problem.

"But like training wheels, you've got to learn to handle life and your depression by your self."

Oh God in Heaven, how I wish I could force you to live inside my brain for a day, week, month, year. Handle it myself? That's why I have doctors and medication, to help me 'handle it myself.'

You do NOT know what you are talking about.
And thank your lucky stars that you do not.

Anyone who can 'learn to handle life and depression by themselves' does NOT have a true clinical depression. They are experiencing a normal every day depression. The kind of depression that everyone gets once in a while, usually due to a very specific situation happening in their lives, such as a death in the family, job loss or illness.

[freeplessinseattle]

69. Amen! I despise that ignorant, superior attitude. I was

too po'd to even write.

[HuckleB]

77. A few things...

Considerations on the Stigma of Mental Illness
http://www.cpa-apc.org/Publications/Archives/CJP/2003/november/guesteditorial.asp

Stigma and the Daily News: Evaluation of a Newspaper Intervention
http://www.cpa-apc.org/Publications/Archives/CJP/2003/november/stuart.asp

Interventions to Reduce the Stigma Associated With Severe Mental Illness: Experiences From the Open the Doors Program in Germany
http://www.cpa-apc.org/Publications/Archives/CJP/2003/november/gaebel.asp


----------


other articles of interest...


Bipolar Disorder: It’s All in Your Mind? The Neuropsychological Profile of a Biological Disorder
http://www.cpa-apc.org/Publications/Archives/CJP/2004/december/malhi.asp

The Neurobiology of Suicide and Suicidality
http://www.cpa-apc.org/Publications/Archives/CJP/2003/june/heeringen.asp

Why? The Neuroscience of Suicide
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=0006AF90-5BC7-1E1B-8B3B809EC588EEDF

The rush to black label (or blackball) SSRIs.
http://www.medicalprogresstoday.com/spotlight/spotlight_indarchive.php?id=298

Specific regions of brain implicated in anorexia nervosa, Univ. of Pittsburgh study
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=27094

and
http://www.umc.pitt.edu/media/pcc/sci2_anorexia_nervosa_2005JULY18.html

Listening to the Past: History, Psychiatry, and Anxiety
http://www.cpa-apc.org/Publications/Archives/CJP/2005/june/InRevTone.asp

Familial Overlap Between Bipolar Disorder and Psychotic Symptoms in a Canadian Cohort
http://www.cpa-apc.org/Publications/Archives/CJP/2005/march2/Rende-OR.asp

Is Antidepressant Prescribing Associated With Suicide Rates?
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p040553.html

Neurobiological Findings in Bipolar II Disorder Compared With Findings in Bipolar I Disorder
http://www.cpa-apc.org/Publications/Archives/CJP/2004/december/silverstone.asp

[Rich Hunt]

138. hmmmm

It didn't help me quit smoking, I gained weight, and it didn't make me feel any better.

May work for some, but it didn't work for me.

[HuckleB]

141. No drug works for everyone.

[Daphne08]

39. Please. I come from a family riddled with depression,

and I've already lost many family members to suicide and alcholism.

My grandfather was actually "put away" in the 1930's because of "severe melancholia" when he could no longer function because of his depression.

I'll stop my posting here since I'm not likely to be very objective on this subject.

[geebensis]

41. You don't have to stop posting...

...you don't have to stop posting because you're "not very objective".

Geez, if everyone refrained from posting anything they weren't objective about, all you'd hear around here is crickets.

Cheers,

Mike

[Daphne08]

68. Just had to take a day-long break.

:)

Thanks.

[freeplessinseattle]

70. No one can be objective. anyone who thinks they can

are fooling themselves.

[driver8]

136. My grandfather used to get electric shock treatment because his

depression was so bad...

He didn't commit suicide but he destroyed his family.

[Danieljay]

47. the anti-depressant bashers will be out in full on this post

ME: 25 milligrams Zoloft. No side effects. no depression. No anxiety. No "blank stares". Improved relationships. Better focus. Better sex. Better life.

[wli]

81. the drugs are not the central issue, it's informed consent

In particular, the first, fourth, and fifth amendments. Anything you do voluntarily is your prerogative.

As far as things like the Texas Medication Algorithm Project and the New Freedom Commission on Mental Health go, there are legitimate and grave corruption concerns similar to the bounties paid to school counselors and the like for the involuntary commitment of teenagers by inpatient facilities in the 1980's and early 1990's (and to a limited extent still ongoing). In that case, insurers had the incentive to sue for fraud, but in this case the federal government is bankrolling it as a matter of policy, which removes even the pursuit of profit by insurers as a safeguard. (This encompasses "involuntary outpatient commitment," i.e. court orders to attend outpatient therapy and take psychiatric drugs.) It's also noteworthy that the lobbyists who promoted it were fronts for pharmaceutical manufacturers, and that there are demonstrable racial biases in diagnosis.

One should also bear in mind that there is no due process for anyone to defend themselves against involuntary commitment, and there are extremely dangerous legal precedents denying the applicability of the fifth amendment.

So, in conclusion, take whatever pills you want. I just don't want you or anyone to have to take pills they don't want to.

[HuckleB]

83. Really? What does that have to do with this study?

Or, for that matter, with Danieljay's post?

:shrug:

I'm sorry, but your "central issue" doesn't seem to be the actual central issue here.

[wli]

84. claims of "miracle drugs" are often followed by overprescription

That is where it enters.

[HuckleB]

85. Where's this claim of a "miracle drug"?

And what would supposed overprescription have to do with your response to Danieljay in connection to this particular study and his particular experience -- or, for that matter, your own diversion regarding patient commitment?

:shrug:

[wli]

86. the response had to do with clarifying my objections to psychiatry

Largely because I expected to be labeled one of the "anti-depressant bashers."

Obviously, no one says "miracle drug." That particular statement (I apparently didn't go over the thread well enough and misremembered what I'd written) was largely groaning in anticipation of another overprescribed antidepressant like Prozac getting handed out candy (it may very well be good or better, but that's no excuse to dose people who don't need it).

[HuckleB]

87. I don't think you have gone over the thread well enough, for starters.

Second, to be groaning about a possible improved drug treatment, which is something that could save lives, and greatly increase the quality of many more lives, because there are some issues with the way our health care system works doesn't add up, in my opinion.

Do I have to write the old "two wrongs" cliche, for posterity's sake?

[wli]

88. no, it was only the first followup to one of your messages

The followup to danieljay itself was dealing exclusively with the "anti-depressant basher" label, and not the topic of the thread itself.

[HuckleB]

89. Again, what did your reply...

to Danieljay have to do with his post and his experience as shared in that post at all, anyway?

:shrug:

[wli]

90. it dealt exclusively with the "anti-depressant basher" label

The remainder of the content was not commented on.

[HuckleB]

91. Nope.

Your post went off about amendments and the New Freedom Commission and involuntary commitment. It didn't address Danieljay's comments. It went off in another direction entirely.

Do you not see that?

[wli]

92. I said that it dealt exclusively with the "anti-depressant basher" label

I talked about the case against psychiatry that I in particular use so that the label could be debunked.

The content of the post itself was not even a topic of my discussion. Only the phrase "anti-depressant basher" used in the title of the post.

ON EDIT: clarified wording

[HuckleB]

94. Whatever you say.

It all looks like spin in order to change the topic to me.

Let me ask you some questions:

Do you oppose the development and study of drugs that might help people suffering from depression and other brain disorders? Do you oppose the development and study of other treatments that may help people suffering from depression and other brain disorders? Do you oppose research aimed at understanding the brain and what happens within the brain that may cause or enhance the possibility of someone having to live with a brain disorder?

[wli]

97. I don't oppose those things.

My opposition is strictly related to coercive and deceptive practices, most markedly those that circumvent constitutional rights. As long as the treatment is dispensed with informed consent, it's fine. (Just like elective surgeries, herbal remedies, and the like.)

[HuckleB]

98. So what do your posts about "informed consent" have to do with this study?

Or with Danieljay's post?

This is what I don't understand.

[wli]

99. they have to do with his using the "anti-depressant basher" label

Nothing more and nothing less.

[HuckleB]

105. What do they have to do with that?

:shrug:

I see no connection whatsoever.

[wli]

109. since I'm obviously the target of "anti-depressant basher" labels...

I was compelled to clarify my position.

[HuckleB]

112. You're the target?

How do you know?

[wli]

118. I don't. It's preemptive.

[HuckleB]

119. Preemptive?

Isn't the definition of preemptive "attacking without cause"? At least that seems to be its most common use in this day and age.

:shrug:

[Bridget Burke]

121. Like the invasion of Iraq....

"Preemptive attack" is not something I would do.

[wli]

124. false analogy. It was not an attack.

[wli]

123. That is not the definition of preemptive, and this wasn't an attack.

[HuckleB]

125. It's not?

It wasn't?

I guess maybe perhaps it wasn't intentionally, anyway.

Hey, why let Rafael Palmiero have all the fun.

[wli]

126. reread the "drugs are not the central issue, it's informed consent" post

The "attack" you're going on about are statements to the effect of "As long as you're taking the medication voluntarily, I don't object to it" and further exposition of actual abuses that were what was being objected to, in particular how they specifically were NOT related to what he presumed would be fodder for "anti-depressant bashers."

This line of "inquiry" (if it can be called such) is claiming I'm going on about with some "attack" when the purported "attack" was specifically disclaiming wanting to be involved with criticism the poster I responded to anticipated that I and/or others sharing my concerns would make.

I said what I was against, that I was not going around blanketly telling people to stop taking antidepressants. Where is your issue?

What are you trying to get at? Why are you bothering me?

[HuckleB]

127. And now we're back to the beginning.

It just goes round and round, without any actual communication occurring. Again, all your "abuses" had nothing to do with the post you responded to and nothing to do with this thread. Even your "voluntary patient" stuff had nothing to do with the post you responded to, as that post was in response to an anti-antidepressant post that offered none of the caveats you now claim to offer, making your caveats meaningless, unless you were the original poster, which you are not.

Mostly I bother you, because you haven't made yourself clear, and you largely haven't made yourself clear because you haven't actually answered most of the actual quesitons I have asked.

[wli]

128. I have made myself clear.

I have answered your questions.

I have dealt with your claims of "inappropriate response."

You in particular are using argumentum ad nauseam on multiple occasions in series of replies to me. I deserve an explanation of why you are doing that, and in particular, why you've chosen me as the target of such.

[HuckleB]

129. Hmm.

Why so paranoid?

[wli]

130. now ad hominem

Anyway, whatever you're trying to do is bothering me. Please stop.

[HuckleB]

131. No. Your last post really comes across as paranoid.

[wli]

132. please stop bothering me

I've gotten a rather disproportionate number of replies from you, and their character is unmistakable.

There is no paranoia. You appear to dislike the particular concerns I have regarding abuses of civil liberties in the practice of psychiatry, and are "leaving no post ``unchallenged''" in an effort to discredit whatever I'm saying. It is an ancient tactic, called "argumentum ad nauseam," and is sometimes described as "having to have the last word."

Disagreement would fine if expressed properly. This pattern of posting behavior you are engaged in, however, is unbecoming of mature participants in open discussion fora.

So I am politely and respectfully asking you to desist.

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HuckleB]

150. Huh! Huh!

Hmm.

:popcorn:

[Name removed]

145. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HuckleB]

149. Hah! Hah!

:rofl:

[HuckleB]

147. Please stop bothering me!

And those who are trying to understand how the brain works, and sometimes doesn't quite maintain homeostasis, as well as possible treatments for finding homeostasis.

Thanks!!!!

[pitohui]

50. they need something new

know some folks with clinical depression resistant to current drugs

they live in hell

a cure must be found

[mahatmakanejeeves]

67. "folks with depression resistant to current drugs"

raises hand

[HuckleB]

73. ?

:shrug:

[blue neen]

101. I hope you are able to get some relief from your depression.

They are using some interesting treatment for depression resistant to current drugs. Some seizure drugs they are using are Lamotrigine and Neurontin, both of which apparently work on some serotonin receptors.

There is also a new anti-depressant called Cymbalta, that works on both serotonin and noradrenaline. It also supposedly has less side effects.

Good luck.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

110. Thanks

I'll look into them. I saved this discussion.

[Conservativesux]

103. Many good antidepressants are not allowed into the US due to FDA

regulations. I am speaking of meds used in Canada, the UK and Austrailia in particular.

Very sad because some of these meds would be helpful to those who have no luck with current FDA meds

[HuckleB]

106. Can you give us more information about these medications?

I'm very curious and would like to know what they are, what they do, etc...

Thanks!

Salud.

[Conservativesux]

108. Edronax, Amineptine, moclobemide are all listed on this site:

http://www.biopsychiatry.com/

Lots of information on what the rest of the world is using to combat mental illnesses, without the dubious "help" of the "Big Drug" racketeers at the FDA.

[HuckleB]

114. Well, with this study in hand, some pharmco is bound to follow amineptine

up, with a "me too" version, one would think.

[Conservativesux]

116. The FDA frowns on meds that effect Dopamine for depressives.....

that is but one reason why Amineptine and also Merital, another dopamine reuptake medication, are banned in all places, but South America.

They dont want you to feel "too good" which is exactly what true dopamine reuptake anti-depressant drugs do.

The FDA is a monster who should be slain for all the misery they have allowed to happen needlessly.

[HuckleB]

117. What makes you come to that conclusion? -eom-

[Conservativesux]

120. 25 years of watching the FDA pull dopamine A/D's off the shelves.

Mertital was banned after only 2 months on the market back in 1985.

Others meds like ANT were never allowed to be marketed in the country becuase of so-called "abuse potential".

Well, we cant take a chance on having you feeling "too good", now can we, after all?

[DuaneBidoux]

93. Stuff it. As someone who has suffered absolute anguish to the point of

suicide and who has received relief only from drugs I would consider understanding a little more about what you are talking about before going too far.

The mind is a false separation from the body. There are drugs to treat depression as there are drugs to treat kidney disease. No difference whatsoever.

By the way, when you're on the edge of jumping out of a tall building a small degree of sexual side effects is a very small price to pay. If you think drugs have a bad effect on sexual functioning you should try suicide. It really slows things down in the bed department.

[HuckleB]

95. You rock!

Best to you.

Salud!

:hi:

[kineneb]

143. Indeed.

I have happily given up sex in exchange for sanity. Being able to just wake up functional is wonderful. The alternative to meds for me is a not-so-slow descent into Hell. After that, all else pales by comparison.

[mike_c]

2. very interesting....

Something that I realized some time ago was that-- for me-- stress is the key to depression, that no matter what the final neurochemical/hormonal mechanisms involved, the trigger is ultimately stress. Stress management is my personal best antidepressant.

[shrike]

4. Glad it works for you

You are very lucky, sir.

[mike_c]

8. indeed....

eom

[Bridget Burke]

5. Of course, non-drug options should be considered first.

Getting rid of stress is great; but not possible for everyone.

But medication is sometimes needed. Sometimes you need help to get through a rough patch. And severe clinical depression needs serious help; a few friends of mine chose the gun.

[mike_c]

13. "...but not possible for everyone...."

Exactly right-- IMPOSSIBLE on some levels for everyone. Life is stressful, plain and simple, and folks with pathologically deficient or otherwise tweaked neurochemistry are going to run up against that wall fast. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

My point was that that we often create unnecessary amounts of stress in our lives, or allow others to create it, and even high-functioning people are often pushed to depression as a stress response. I'm one such person, and I've learned that stress management is my key to remaining even keeled.

[olddad56]

7. that is what works for you.

I have known for years that my depression was related to my body's inability to make dopamine. How did I know this. None of the common antidepressants that all effect levels of seratonin help me, many I have been asked to try, make it worse. I have a neurological sleep disorder related to the dopamine level in my brain. When I am able to sleep, I don't feel depressed. I have also learned long ago that all of our neurotransmitters are made in our digestive system. A good diet is my best defense. And I agree, stress is a huge factor.

I also smoked a ton of pot in the 70s. Many drugs such a spot, heroin, etc taken over a long period of time, screw up your levels of dopamine.

[xultar]

9. WOW I'm glad you've found the key to your situation and can

use stress management to help.

You are VERY lucky to be able to take this route.

[mike_c]

15. frankly, I'm lucky to be alive....

You're right, I'm very fortunate. I'm still learning how to deal with this-- at the moment my biggest hurdle is changing the way I interpret my symptoms. Intellectually, I understand them to be signals that I need to ease up and deal with sressful situations-- it's usually pretty obvious-- but emotionally, of course, I interpret them as the same 'ol "stinkin' thinkin'." Just understanding that gives me some control, however.

[HuckleB]

10. Indeed.

The current "consensus" indicates that depression develops in folks with a genetic propensity via some environmental stressor. For those who can note and change that stressor, that may be all the treatment they need. Of course, it's likely that the intensity of the genetic propensity varies a great deal among individuals.

Good on you.

Salud!

[Gregorian]

51. Absolutely the same here.

In which case, removing Bush could cure the entire nation.

And since stress is subjective with respect to individual sensitivity, those who are more sensitive have more stress. In other words, the good people suffer the most. Ie, Democrats.

Excercise is my cure.

[elehhhhna]

12. Depression is like type one diabetes.

It can show up any time in life and can also be managed.

If ignored it can kill.

There are a multitude of degrees and treatments. Stigma be dammned.

[HuckleB]

14. A wonderful, thorough analogy.

Thanks for sharing.

Salud!

[olddad56]

16. what a depressing topic.

[demnan]

19. I think there is a connection between

sleeplessness and some forms of depression. Interesting because some people (like me) sleep too much when depressed. Others (like a friend) have insomnia. My friend just might be helped by this approach.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

100. For me, insomnia and depression definitely go together

I haven't had a major episode for fifteen years, but I get minor episodes of insomnia and racing thoughts and lethargy, and they seem to clear up after a good night's sleep with intense and vivid dreams.

I don't know enough about brain chemistry to know what that indicates.

[MN ChimpH8R]

22. Getting on meds probably helped save my life last summer

form a horrendous, potentially suicidal depression. Medication and therapy have done wonders for me. Anything that can help is welcomed.

There's a fair amount of depression in my family, so I do believe that there's a genetic element, but stress and bad life situations can trigger clinical depression.

[RaRa]

36. Certain diseases can also create depression

My dad has Alzhiemer's and has depression as a side effect. I don't think he's ever realized he has the disease, so it's not like he's depressed ABOUT it. Just a side effect like a headache (I know, worse). Zoloft has helped him and my mom took it for a few months too.

[medeak]

33. hope they find a cure for Parkinson's along the way

as caused by lack of dopamine

[topsfieldgal]

37. Dopamine and depression link

And since Dopamine is related to Parkinson's, I bet they're all related. I say that because my mother was depressed and not on medication but came down with Parkinsons. I'm very suspicious.

[blue neen]

65. We have the same situation in our family.

I felt for years that my mom was depressed. Her PCP put her on an SSRI, which only works on serotonin. It did nothing for her but make her sleep.

Now my mom has been diagnosed with Parkinson's Disease. It really makes you wonder if the lack of dopamine that she seemed to have all along is the cause of it.

When you have Parkinson's you are treated with medications that help build up your dopamine like Requip, for example. How is that so different than taking Wellbutrin? It doesn't seem very different at all to me!

[fshrink]

42. So that's

serotonin, norepinephrine, dopamine. Gaba is the next major one on the list. Until someone will figure out that all brain activity is involved in what we call depression. And perhaps, the very depressing world, with zillions of daily losses, in which we "live" as well. But there's no pill against that. Or is there?

[geebensis]

44. There just might be a pill...

There just might be a pill that changes the depressing world into a happy, fun world.

Unfortunately, it has a hell of a down side to it.

Just ask Rush Limbaugh.

[ernstbass]

46. Rush did not take antidepressant medications

You are comparing apples and oranges.

[geebensis]

48. A joke...

The first poster said "...the very depressing world, with zillions of daily losses, in which we "live" as well. But there's no pill against that. Or is there?"

So my joke was that oxycontin is such a pill, but with a real downside.

I've often thought the theme song for Limbaugh's show should be Eddy Arnold's "Make the World Go Away"

[etherealtruth]

52. Certainly makes sense ...

Thanks for the info.

[DanCa]

53. Thank you so much for posting this HuckleB

Depression ranks highly in the parkinson's community. And PD is caused by Dopamine regulation. May I please copy and Post this onto my pd forums? I always ask before I take from this board. Thank you.

[HuckleB]

55. Please. Be my guest.

Anytime you want to copy and post a thread that I started, go right ahead.

Salud!

[kodi]

57. so soon we shall arrive, with the help of big pharma, at Huxley's Soma

"Two thousand pharmacologists and bio-chemists were subsidized. Six years later it was being produced commercially. The perfect drug. Euphoric, narcotic, pleasantly hallucinant. All the advantages of Christianity and alcohol; none of their defects. Take a holiday from reality whenever you like, and come back without so much as a headache or a mythology. Stability was practically assured."

ALDOUS HUXLEY Brave New World

[HuckleB]

58. Great book.

But treating real depression is not the same as Soma for the masses.

[kodi]

59. not yet

but someday.

[HuckleB]

63. And you connect your "someday" to understanding and treating depression?

:shrug:

[kodi]

71. nice try at putting words in the mouths of others. but that dog won't hunt

i read the entire thread, you have experiences with depression.

guess what? most of us do, either through personal experience with ourselves, our friends, or in our family.

i will explain it to you since it is obvious your posts have as a goal proving your superiority to the rest of us.

my comment was to illustrate that the use of anti-depressants could be used on everyone, and could effectively sedate an entire population.

the bush administration has initiated programs to test all school kids for mental illnesses, thus potentially diagnosing an entire generation with mental illness and prescribing anti-depressants for anyone deemed outside the norm.

anyone exhibiting behavior considered in conflict with accepted behavior could be diagnosed as sick. and it is not unimaginable that any such diagnoses could be manipulated for political purposes.

the soviets filled their mental institutions with dissidents who were held there because they had the temerity to think that the soviet sysytem was bad. these men and women were deemed mentally ill by soviet doctors because the authorities held that anyone who would reject the validity of the State ("outside the norm"), would have to be crazy.

Huxley's "Soma," or the medicinal products derived from the study cited above would have been a "cure" for such behavior. and that is the threat to which i alluded.

[HuckleB]

74. I wasn't putting words in your mouth.

I was asking a question, trying to clarify what you were selling.

History is filled with wrongs done in every area of humanity, including the areas that many pursue with good intentions. One can develop the type of argument you are offering in order to develop a worst case scenario basis for every kind of scientific research going today. That doesn't justify leaving the people who can benefit out in the cold. And it doesn't justify screaming "Soma!" every time a new piece of research on depression comes forth. At some point it becomes drama for drama's sake.

Further, if you have "experience" with depression, are you not curious about the possible etiologies for this debilitating and deadly disorder?

[kodi]

78. of course you were and you just did it again in your last post

your remark.."And it doesn't justify screaming "Soma!" every time a new piece of research on depression comes forth. At some point it becomes drama for drama's sake."

my comment had nothing to do with screaming Soma every time new research on depression is published. i explained quite clearly the danger i envision from such treatments, not from the drugs themselves, but from societal implimentation of a policy that a drug can cure mental illnesses, as defined by society....that was what huxley was warning about in brave new world.

btw: i am no Luddite when it comes to science and medicine. my brother and uncle are pyschiatrists, my phd was in medicinal chemistry. i have seen first hand what depression does, i carried in my arms a 14 year old neighbor girl to the emergency ward after her sister and i found her in her bathroom with her wrists slashed. there is no worse hell on earth than mental depression. but i have found that depression is also a catch-all term to include folks who have had unrealistic expectations of life and when not achieving their wants act like children who don't get their way. this is not a slam at those who are in a personal hell induced by brain chemistry.

those who i know taking anti-depressants act like zombies. they walk and often talk normally, but seem they are living in a floating emotionless fog, as if their very selfhood has been neutered. when they speak of their past depression it is as if they are talking about another person entirely, and the person i knew is not there anymore.

that is a marginal trade-off for many of these people, and instead of drugs, a series of sessions with a good pychiatrist would likely help more. working through one's problems with a doctor trained for insight in these matters seems to me a better way of accepting the world than just prescribing drug induced tranquility.

listening to my brother and uncle on these matters, it is clear that there exists a divide in pyschiatry on this. some doctors look at the brain as merely another body organ, and prescribe drugs to fix it, others want to use drugs only after examining the mind and deciding that the problems are actually brain chemistry problems, instead of an affect of the mind.

brain chemistry is responsible for so much of depression, for sure; i have a mechanistic view of the world, but there is also the aspect of the mind and that means one has responsibility for oneself and one has to endure what life gives.

Suffering is the one promise Life always keeps.
So that when Happiness comes
We know it is a precious Gift,
Which is ours only for a brief time.
“Beyond Rangoon”

[HuckleB]

79. I'm not sure how you figure that.

First, I asked a question. You said I put words in your mouth.

Something doesn't add up there.

Then I note that someone is always screaming "Soma!" on these threads. And somehow that is putting words in your mouth, too.

Let's not try to pretend that it doesn't happen almost every time a thread on depression issues appears at DU.

----------

Your description of acquaintances on antidepressants is a description of people on the wrong medications, or people whose underlying cause of depression leaves them without viable treatment -- thus research like this may offer hope for them. The people I know who take antidepressants are much more themselves than they ever hoped for during their time dealing with depression. They feel every emotion available. They are filled with joy, anger, sadness, and everything else the rest of us know. They are the people I once knew prior to the depression hitting them. Further, most of them also went through therapy, as combined treatment has been shown to be the most efficacious. Oh, and many of them tried therapy alone without benefits before going to medication treatment. And, yes, for some therapy proved to be all the treatment they needed.

Yes, thorough assessment is always necessary before prescribing, and that is part of the problem with general practitioners prescribing, not to mention with insurance companies giving psychiatrists almost no time with their patients. Again, none of that should preclude further investigation into the etiology of depression and the search for improved treatments with fewer side effects.

--------

And please don't make anymore claims about putting words in your mouth, when I have not done so. Thank you.

[tmorelli415]

61. Hmmm... I thought depression was linked to Republicans?

all I know is I feel like crawling under a rock every time I see Dipwad on TV yammerin in that whiney drawl of his.

[WhiteTara]

62. yep, I suffer SAD, but it has extended

even into the strong daylight hours because of chimpy and crew. I used to take antidepressants in the winter, now winter is every day and I occasional up my meds just because I saw chimpy in another horrible anecdotal situation.

[EFerrari]

72. My husband takes atypical antipsychotics.

I don't see a long term benefit that outweighs the side effects. And that bums me out beyond expression.

[HuckleB]

75. There are many who cannot tolerate them long term.

There are some who can and do benefit from them. Certainly, the side effect profile for the second generation is a huge improvement over the first generation. Luckily, not everyone who does benefit from using atypicals as an adjunct to treat refractory depression needs to be on it long term, or at least needs to be on anything but very low doses long term. However, I have seen these medications benefit too many people over the years. Again, they don't help everyone. We clearly have much to learn about the variety of etiologies of depression and other brain disorders.

I am sorry to hear about your husband's struggle. I can't comment on it in regard to treatment. I can only hope that he finds a viable treatment. Best of luck to you and yours.

Salud.



On edit: This review article might be of interest to you, just thought I'd share...

New Antipsychotics, Compliance, Quality of Life, and Subjective Tolerability—Are Patients Better Off?
http://www.cpa-apc.org/Publications/Archives/CJP/2004/may/awad.asp

[cyr330]

102. I was diagnosed

bipoloar I when I was in my teens. I would have been dead a long, long time ago had there been no medication to take. I have to take three anti-depressants and two mood stabilizers in order to function. Nobody can tell me that I can just "get over it" by sheer will power. I've gone completely nuts so many times by not being compliant with my meds, and there IS concrete, medical proof that bipolar disorder does exist.

[hedgehog]

107. There's a lot of confusion here

What some people call "depression" is nothing like true clinical depression. Being upset at the Republicans is not necessarily depression.It's probably a sign of a well functioning person. Being so upset at the republicans that you can't sleep or eat or get out of bed in the morning may be depression. Being so upset (and feeling so worthless) over returning a video a day late that you can't eat or sleep or get out of bed is probably depression.

The new anti-depressants are not the old tranquilizers nor are they happy pills. That's why we depressives are so excited about them. They actually allow us to lead normal lives. No one anti-depressant works for every depressed patient. As a matter of fact, the assorted reactions to different drugs have helped scientist and doctors to figure out that there are different mechanisms all collected under the diagnosis of depression. One person needs seratonin levels balanced while the next needs seratonin and dopamine levels balanced. Yeah, there are a lot of "me-too" drugs out there, but there are significant differences between others.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

111. "The new anti-depressants are not ... happy pills.

I read something recently that makes sense. Someone said that the opposite of depression is not happiness. Instead, it is resilience.

[HuckleB]

113. That's a beautiful way to put it.

Salud.

[Taxloss]

122. Hear hear.

But not all depressives "get excited" about new pills; pills are sometimes not the answer.

[HuckleB]

115. A structure of antidepressants' binding sites

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=28379

[Eurobabe]

139. Coulda f'ing told you that from taking natural thyroid

hormone. Definitely affects dopamine in body, never felt better in my life. No need for anti-depressants.

Problem is, natural thyroid sells for about $5 a bottle (30 tabs), big pharma doesn't want to touch that with a ten-foot pole.

Read book by Broda Barnes, many of the "illnesses" we have today did not exist when thyroid extracts were more readily available.

[shrike]

146. Fascinating

We have a history of depression/bipolar illness and thyroid problems in my family. Makes perfect sense now.

[HuckleB]

148. Does that actually get into the system after being metabolized? -eom-