Roman ruler's head found in sewer

[DoYouEverWonder]

29 July 2005

A 1,700-year-old carved marble head of Emperor Constantine has been found in a sewer in central Rome.

Archaeologists found the 60cm (2ft) head while clearing an ancient drainage system in the ruins of the Roman Forum.

Eugenio La Rocca, superintendent of Rome's artefacts, described the head as a rare find and said it was possible it had been used to clear a blocked sewer.

Constantine, who reigned from 306 to 337, is known for ending persecution of Christians and founding Constantinople.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4727391.stm

We can only how that our current fearless leader meets a similar fate.

[Maple]

1. Talk about

not cleaning your drains in a long time....!

[DoYouEverWonder]

2. No wonder

that toilet's been backing up for all these years.

[Gregorian]

3. Wow. He was ahead of his time.

In more ways than one.

[DemBones DemBones]

6. They haven't used the Forum in a long, long time. nt

[Maple]

32. Obviously

[Squatch]

4. The birth of the modern plumber maintenance call.

Well, here's your problem lady. You seem to have an intricate likeness of the emperor in your toilet.

Dammit, I told Steve-adus not to put marble in the can.

Well, it's going to involve removing some columns and your tiled bathhouse...and it's going to cost you 500...hey, Frank-us...what's our currency worth now?

[johnfunk]

8. New from Drano: Marble Plumr!

n/t...

[neuvocat]

29. Heh.

:D

[VegasWolf]

5. The emperor most responsible for codifying and advancing

christianity! His head was employed to "clear a blocked sewer."

[johnfunk]

7. Darn! For just one fleeting moment....

... I thought the headling might, just might, be referring to Silvio Berlusconi. Darn...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

9. My head is in the sewer at least once a day

[slackmaster]

10. There have to be dozens of good jokes in there

Come on, professional satirists: LET'S HEAR THEM!

[TrogL]

21. That's using your head

I'm sorry.

[ashling]

50. Freepers blame the beheading on Al Queda

[wli]

11. Constantine did a bit more than Christianity

The military situation he dealt with was rather intense. The Christianity thing is almost a minor footnote in comparison (that is, if judged by how much time he spent on it and so on).

[VegasWolf]

12. Hardly! His major accomplishment was the conversion of paganism

to christianity. Funny, he started the damn religion but refused to be converted. While on his death bed and too weak to protest, he was
converted to christianity.

[wli]

13. delete

ARGH, what happened to my brain?

[VegasWolf]

15. Yes, I am aware of the collapse of the Roman Empire. That is very

interesting military history. I agree with you there, I was referring to what I call the advancement of a dangerous ( e.g., inquisition, religious crusades, Spanish land grabs, etc ) religion, i.e., christianity. Constantine was essential in the creation of latter day christianity. And in my humble opinion, not for the better :).

[wli]

20. he also made trades (butcher, baker) hereditary and established serfdom

[VegasWolf]

24. TV evangelism was before his time though! :) nt

[VegasWolf]

22. It happens to all of us!! :)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

36. That was actually a common practice in those days

The idea was that you could sin all you wanted all your life and get in a last-minute baptism and make it all better.

[Demeter]

38. And That's Different From Today How?

OR this notion that once you are saved, you can commit any crime and get a free pass....

[Lydia Leftcoast]

45. The idea that you can commit any crime because you're "saved" is

not standard Christian doctrine, not even among fundamentalists, but it's a common self-justification.

[VegasWolf]

44. Except, Constantine shaped christianity. He was instrumental

in the battles as to whether jesus was merely a prophet or son
of god, he convened the First Ecumenical Council of the church
which was held at Nicaea where Jesus was voted to be son of god,
and Jesus won by a narrow vote. I think this is history's first
recorded use of a Diebold voting machine.

With all of this, Constantine fought conversion to christianity
until on his deathbed when he was too weak to protest he was
finally baptized. Constantine knew what he was doing.

Constantine was still wearing the white robes of a Christian neophyte at his death. His body was escorted to Constantinople and lay in state in the imperial palace. His sarcophagus was then placed in the Church of the Holy Apostles, as he himself had directed; it was surrounded by the memorial steles of the Twelve Apostles, making him symbolically the thirteenth Apostle.

[DivinBreuvage]

55. Constantine was an adherent of the Christian God long before his death

as is shown by his actions, his surviving statements, and his imperial iconography. He was, however, wise enough not to make such a big show of it as to give offense to the army or the elite classes, which were still predominantly pagan -- a subtlety which some observers or historical revisionists, more familiar perhaps with the in-your-face theatrics of some modern Christians, seem unable to appreciate.

Nor did being an adherent of the Christian God, in those days, mean that one fetishized Jesus in the same way that some modern Christians do. As you yourself point out, Christians of the fourth century still hadn't come to a decision on who Jesus himself really was.

It's also a myth that baptism was "forced" on Constantine on his deathbed. Waiting till death to be baptised was common practice at the time... see Lydia's post #36.

[wli]

56. I'm not entirely convinced

A lot of that was political, because the bishops were maintaining order (after a fashion; they did, after all, incite anti-pagan riots and arson and vandalism of pagan temples) while the armies were heavily engaged and the like. The bishops were a fighting force of a sort as they had mobs of angry peasants in thrall and going around breaking things, and various of them acted in military capacities (ex-commanders becoming bishops, Pope Leo I meeting Attila on the battlefield, etc.).

So my general impression is that his involvement with Christianity was largely politically motivated. And as far as shaping Christianity, the Edict of Milan promoted religious freedom, and he attempted to dissuade the anti-pagan violence and failed, and he favored Arianism as far as even explicitly banishing bishops (esp. Athanasius) adhering to the Nicene Creed, where Arianism later died out, though it is true that initially he followed the Nicene Creed (and banished Arius in its immediate aftermath).

These things suggest a very different picture from someone whose opinions shaped Christianity. They suggest, in fact, a person not adhering to Christianity whose attempts to shape it into a tolerant religion and to hold its political power in check failed utterly.

[DivinBreuvage]

54. This isn't really a fair appraisal

The idea was that, since baptism was such a critical sacrament and a one-time deal, you shouldn't risk wasting it by taking it when you were young and healthy lest you sin later and undo its benefit. The reason people tended to put it off until they were moribund was to make sure that they wouldn't have a chance to screw up its cleansing magic before they shuffled off the mortal coil.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

58. That's how it was explained to me by a specialist

in the late Roman era.

[DivinBreuvage]

62. The following is from "Constantine the Great" by British classicist

Michael Grant:

"But in fact late, last-minute baptism -- like adult baptism in general -- was not an infrequent phenomenon, becasue it was strongly felt that after baptism one ought not to commit a sin, and the only way to ensure this was to become baptized when one was not going to live for very much longer. In the words of Edward Gibbon:

'The sacrement of baptism was supposed to contain a full and absolute expiation of sin; and the soul was instantly restored to its original purity, and entitled to the promise of eternal salvation.

'Among the proselytes of Christianity, there were many who judged it imprudent to precipitate a salutary rite, which could not be repeated: to throw away an inestimable privilege, which could never be recovered.'"

Between your specialist and Michael Grant, who is right? Who's wrong? Or are they both wrong, or both partially right? One of that fascinating things about history!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

64. What I heard from "my" expert is almost exactly what Grant writes

:-)

[Trajan]

52. Two wrong assertions ...

1) Constantine issued the Edict of Milan .... which declared the end of the persecution of christians and the return of their property ... but it did NOT force conversion ....

2) The notion that Constantine took baptism on his deathbed is quaint ... there is no evidence he did, other than the questionable praise of a few church fathers ....

From : http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/history/constantine.htm

The Conversion of Constantine and End of Persecution

A major turning point in Christian history occurred when the Roman Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity. Whether this conversion was sincere or politically motivated, historians can only speculate. But the result was the end of persecution of Christians.

In 313 Constantine issued the "Edict of Milan," which commanded official toleration of Christianity and other religions. He ordered that Sunday be granted the same legal rights as pagan feasts and that feasts in memory of Christian martyrs be recognized. Constantine outlawed the barbaric gladiatorial shows (although they persisted until the fifth century) and forbade Jews to stone to death other Jews who chose to become Christians.

Contrary to popular belief, however, Constantine did not make Christianity the official religion of the empire. This was to be accomplished by Emperor Theodosius in 380. Constantine's program was one of toleration only, and he continued to support both Christianity and paganism. In 314, the cross appeared on Constantine's coins, but so did the figures of Sol Invictus and Mars Convervator. He raised his children as Christians and secured Christian clergy as person advisors, but retained the title pontifex maximus, the chief priest of the state cult, until his death.
References

1. "Christianity." Encyclopædia Britannica (Encyclopædia Britannica Premium Service, 2004).
2. Justo Gonzalez, A History of Christian Thought, Vol 1.
3. Kenneth Scott Latourette, A History of Christianity, Vol 1.

-snip-

[VegasWolf]

53. You certainly state the official christian version. nt

[modrepub]

40. Major religious underpinnings

It's really uncertain if Constantine completely understood christianity. As he rose to power he was part of a sun cult (Sol Invictus). Shortly before a battle with a rival western emperor he had a vision. While gazing at the sun he saw a symbol and was instructed that under this banner he would find victory. Most people think this was the cross but it's my understanding that the symbol was Chi Ro (greek letters used by the early christians). Constantine defeated his rival and later defeated his eastern rival who had adopted the pagan symbols. The meaning was obvious to Constantine and anyone else. The Christian God was stronger.

Another interesting thing is Constantine had a hand in the formation of the modern Bible. Shortly after his victory over his final rival he commissioned the purchase of 50 holy books in memory of his mother (a purported christian). There was no formal holy book at the time so church authorities quickly put together a formal Bible, over three hundred years after Christ's death.

I think it's fair to say that Constantine's early accomplishment were military and his later were religious and economic.

[Old Mouse]

60. Constantine's Council of Nicea

canonized the Bible, which forever shaped the core of Christian values.
Philosophical discussion within the church was ended by a sovereign decree for unity. A religion originally abhorrent of any established human order became sanctioned by and ultimately a major supporter of the establishment. A practice that continues to this day.

[azoth]

61. well

"There was no formal holy book at the time so church authorities quickly put together a formal Bible, over three hundred years after Christ's death."

Under Diocletian (284-305 AD) and the "Great Persecution" almost all of the early christian works were burned or otherwise destroyed. What Constantine did was to commission reproductions - from the writer's memories. So at Nicea, it was ultimately decided which of these reproductions would make the cut to the "official" bible and what would be left behind, omitted or edited.

And don't forget that the Romans had a long-standing history of morphing their own "state" religion to flow with the religions of those peoples they were ruling. It made for easier control of the masses. So it wasn't all that uncommon to blend religions. Why else would we refer to Jupiter/Zeus or Minerva/Athena as the same entity in the Greco-Roman pantheon?

And I agree - the deathbed conversion is a quaint tale told by those who'd like it to be true. But I also happen to believe that can be said about many things.

[Spinzonner]

14. I've heard about getting your mind out of the gutter

but putting your head in the sewer lowers it to a whole new level

[TahitiNut]

16. Now we know why it's called a 'head.'

:silly: {rimshot}

[Cha]

41. I sitting here reading all this

stuff..cracking up! :silly:

[atreides1]

17. Yes he did end the persecution

Then allowed the Christians to persecute everybody else, which the truly fanatical ones have been doing ever since.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[wli]

25. he gave many sermons preaching toleration for paganism

He himself also didn't get baptized almost until his death.

[VegasWolf]

26. Exactly, he ruthlessly used christianity as a tool to control the masses.

I actually respect the guy very much, especially his refusal
to be converted to a religion he made mandatory.

[wli]

28. oh, I don't think he's a great guy or anything

I'm just trying to stick to exactly what he did. I'm pretty sure as well that the Christianity stuff was pretty much demagoguery bunk and/or trying to win over the bishops. Don't ask me to explain how the bishops got into such a position, though.

[atreides1]

30. Don't Misunderstand

I'm not putting any blame on the Emperor, it was those that followed after him that sought revenge, by using a religion in which vengeance
was never to be taken by man, only by God.

It's unfortunate that the sermons only remained effective while he was still living, but I guess the last thing anyone would want to do is to piss off a Roman Emperor.

[wli]

34. they were ineffective while he was alive, too

Also, I don't think Constantine was any kind of beneficent ruler or anything, I'm just trying to stick to the strict record etc.

[TahitiNut]

18. Constantine: the originator of gutter politics.

:silly: {rim shot}

[VegasWolf]

19. Think that we will ever find a bust of Jerry Falwell's head in the sewer?

[winston61]

31. Falwell IS the sewer

[NV Whino]

23. I'm not sure I understand the logic of this statement...

"said it was possible it had been used to clear a blocked sewer."


It's sort of: "Hey, man, the sewer's blocked. Let's throw a bowling ball down and see if we can unblock it."

[NYC]

46. I wondered about that, too.

Odd.

[Megahurtz]

27. Lol! What a funny title to this article!

:D

[Orsino]

33. Sorry. My bad. n/t

[Richard Steele]

35. So when Keanu Reeve's "Constantine" went right in the toilet, he was...

...just striving for some historical accuracy!

[cosmicdot]

37. ewww ... can we have a 'heads up' next time?

:silly:

[Octafish]

39. You finally found a job for which Chimpy is qualified.

Congratulations!

[Emendator]

42. Cool

Who knows how many unknown historical artifacts and works of art are scattered throughout Italy? The country is basically a living, breathing, open air museum. Forza!

[loudsue]

47. Yep. Just think about what has been destroyed in IRAQ!!

Thanks to the republican "WMD" story.

:kick::kick::kick:

[Emendator]

51. So true

I don't even want to think about it. It's very depressing. I'm more upset about the destroyed cuneiform tablets than the lost riches, which will be kept safe, sold on the black market, and will eventually make their way slowly but surely back to Iraq. But the lost records on those tablets is really depressing.

[kodi]

43. where's the rest of him?

.

[Demonaut]

48. decades from now "W" stickers and "Flight Suit ChickenHawk" dolls

will be found clogging trailer park septic tanks over most of the southern states

[Swamp Rat]

49. Constantine was a real shit head.

:D

[Jack Rabbit]

57. They should have left it where it was.

An Emperor's head belongs in the sewer.

[burrowowl]

59. How emperor's head

couldn't even unplug a sewer, that is how worthless he is. However he supplies a hell of a lot of shit.

[johnfunk]

63. A whole new meaning to "butthead"

n/t