CBS: Shuttle To Be Repaired In Flight

[stopbush]

Not good news. Looks like the "everything's hunky dory" meme has been dropped.

Shuttle To Be Repaired In Flight
SPACE CENTER, Houston, Aug. 1, 2005


NASA has decided to order an unprecedented repair mission by Discovery's astronauts on Wednesday to repair a potential problem on the shuttle's belly, CBS News Correspondent Mark Strassmann reports.

The ceramic-fiber cloth, which is glued between heat tiles, is sticking up as much as an inch in two locations. NASA isn't sure how big a risk it might be, but is taking no chances. The agency's chief says the decision was made to remove the material because he says "some bad things" could have happened.

Repairing the gap fillers in-flight would be a first for NASA.

Strassmann reports that astronaut Stephen Robinson, anchored by the space station's robotic arm, will yank out or cut off the material sticking out on Wednesday. The risks are that they going to have to be very careful not to damage anything on the shuttle.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/08/01/tech/printable713006.shtml

[ClusterFreak]

1. Looking more and more like we've got another Apollo 13 on our hands...

God's speed, Discovery.

[progressivebydesign]

2. This is very frightening. I wish them the best. n/t

[jim3775]

3. Nothing to worry about, this was the plan all along.

My god, you guys fall for the media spin hook line and sinker.

[rocktivity]

6. Yep, we were "spun"

First we were told there was no problem, then we were told there might be a problem, then we were told an extra spacewalk might be needed, then we were told there WAS a problem, then they did the space walk...

Oh, well, at least the damage wasn't so bad that NASA knew it COULDN'T be fixed, like with the Challenger. Unless...

:eyes:
rocknation

[jim3775]

10. What was your primary source for shuttle info? The MSM?

"First we were told there was no problem"

No, the debris was noticed shortly after launch. I posted a link to a picture of it about 5 minutes after launch. The first post-launch press conference talked about the debris.

"then we were told there might be a problem"

Yes before the laser and HD camera scan of the shuttle. What’s bad about saying there could be a problem, how is that deceptive?

"then we were told there WAS a problem"

Yes, tile damage which was expected, which is why NASA sent so many repair kits up with the astronauts who are trained in tile repair.

"then they did the space walk"

Yes two of them and they both went great. One, two days ago to practice different tile repair techniques. Another today to repair the ISS and the next one to repair the tile. The mission was designed to launch, scan the shuttle, identify problems and fix them if necessary.

[LastDemocratInSC]

15. The gap filler problem was not caused by the foam debris

I think we all saw the foam depart the external tank in the live view from the tank-mounted camera. The foam did not affect the shuttle in any way - mostly because of the high altitude at which the incident occured. At a lower altitude the damage could have been significant.

The gap filler problem is separate from the foam problem. It has been seen on many shuttles after landing.

The thing is this - the new cameras on the shuttle and external tank are letting us see what has always happened on flights - foam debris falling from the tank, tile damage from launch, etc.

It's always happened - now we can see it. The problem is this - now that we know what's going on, are we going to fix it or not? In the past the shuttle flew on the basis that ignorance was bliss, and this was true until Feb 1 2003.

[high density]

20. Don't they usually plan spacewalks for months in advance?

I can't imagine that politics and public relations alone could lead to this decision.

[Emperor_Norton_II]

21. Sort of

Most EVAs are planned for in advance, to get a good idea on how much consumables it'll take to get the job done. That covers stuff like the spackle tests they did the other day. Since mission planning these days also involves contingencies, there's a reserve for stuff like taking a look at these wayward spacers.

As for the decision... there's a minor risk in leaving the spacers the way they are right now, and there's a minor risk in sending an astronaut over the side to mess with the heat shield. But NASA as a whole is just paranoid enough on the RTF mission to take the risk of sending a guy over to at least look at the spacers.

[CrownPrinceBandar]

4. To make a space program viable...........

they're going to have to learn to do this on a regular basis. That way they can keep the shuttle going up and keep NASA afloat.

[stopbush]

5. I got flamed when I posted my "Now that the shuttle didn't blow up

today" thread when the launch was originally scrubbed. I said it then and I'll say it now: they are rushing this thing for political purposes. These astronauts are pawns to the RWers. Have been since Reagan got the frozen Challenger up there so he could speak with a school teacher during his SOTU speech.

NASA is afraid of its survival and the RW loves nothing more than having the nation in shock and mourning. This is a crap shoot that we shouldn't be playing.

[ClusterFreak]

7. I'm with you....'media spin' my eye...

....and I say 'let 'em flame'.

[htuttle]

8. One day, you will be able to call upon a AAA orbital service shuttle...

...to do this. Some guy with a nametag that says 'Big Ed' on his spacesuit will float over to your craft and patch the hole up. After getting your credit card number, of course.

That day is not today, however.

[AlCzervik]

9. According to the NYT and several other reports i've read those inflight

repair kits aren't really ready for a job this size.

[Kagemusha]

13. Not for tiles no, but this is different stuff...

Call it the bigotry of low expectations but, as long as they don't mess anything else up, snipping dangling material off is something (Edit:) a good hacksaw and foreceps can manage. That is, of course, one hell of a big if.

I'm immediately reminded of a cynical DU'er saying that if anything goes wrong the blame can be shifted to the astronauts themselves. Or at least more so than otherwise.

But if there was ever an example of managing by emergency, lord this is it...

[rfkrfk]

11. Do people really believe this?

Seems like, some people will believe whatever chimp's
people say.

I don't know what really happened, but I don't take
this stuff at face value.

I kinda assume, something like this was
planned for this mission,
to 'play up' the value of manned spaceflight.

[jim3775]

12. I believe it. I know what really happened...

Do you want photos and analytical graphs and diagrams of the problem? And full photos and descriptions of repair techniques? I can provide them. It seems strange that a nefarious cover-up would be covered with live video 24/7 on NASA TV.

If you want to watch the repair tune into NASA TV Wednesday sometime between midnight and 6am to see every minute of the repair live from a camera mounted on the astronaut's helmet.

[Hardrada]

17. So it's all Ok then??

Right? I hope so.

[Bridget Burke]

29. Engineers are not know for their senses of humor.

Especially when dealing with a problem like the one that killed some friends of theirs.

[Moochy]

41. I beleive

Nasa scientists are not chimps people. They stopped the chimp astronaut program in the 70's I think.

[DanCa]

14. God I hope everything is going to be okay (nt)

[Endangered Specie]

16. When they get back, they should retire the shuttle immediatly.

and never let any of these obsolete things touch a lift off pad again.

[daleo]

18. They should send the shuttle back with a minimum crew

Empty and piloted from earth if possible. Even if they fix this problem, it seems to me it might be difficult to be sure that the process of repair didn't cause further damage.

Hacking away at some protruding carbon fiber while in a bulky spacesuit, suspended on a robotic arm, will be tricky, at best. At worst, they might actually smash a few tiles. They should take the Russians up on their offer.

But that would make Bush look weak, so it won't happen. If there is a disaster, the media will be in full CYA mode for Bush.

[Emperor_Norton_II]

19. Why all this babble about the Russians?

Seriously. If something goes wrong on this repair EVA and damage is caused beyond the ability to repair it, STS-300 is standing by ready to go. Atlantis is in the process of being stacked as we speak, and moving in full Apollo 13-style balls-to-the-wall crisis management mode, she can be at ISS and ready to evacuate Discovery's crew in 40 days:

* T–35 Days: Flight Directors and NASA managers declare the attached orbiter inoperable and unrecoverable. Orders are forwarded to NASA's John F. Kennedy Space Center to prepare the designated rescue orbiter for launch.

* T–25 Days: The damaged orbiter is jettisoned by ISS crew. NASA mission controllers then steer the damaged orbiter away from ISS, fire the onboard engines, and send the orbiter to a crash landing in the Pacific Ocean, away from known shipping lanes and avoiding debris damage similar to that caused by the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster. Both ISS and Shuttle crews are placed on strict rationing diets to preserve onboard food supplies.

* T–15 Days: The Rescue Shuttle is rolled out of the Vehicle Assembly Building (VAB) by crawler-transporter to either Launchpad 39-A or 39-B, whichever was not used by the regular Shuttle launch.

* T–10 Days: The four-strong rescue crew (commander, co-pilot, and two mission specialists) arrives at Kennedy Space Center and is placed in semi-quarantine (similar to that employed in Project Apollo) to prevent launch-scrubbing injuries or illnesses.

* T–3 Days: Final launch preparations commence.

* T–1 Day: Launchpad technicians fill the Rescue Shuttle's liquid oxygen tanks and external liquid hydrogen tank. New ET bipod ramp and solid rocket joint heaters are turned on.

* T–5 Hours: The members of the Rescue Crew are suited in orange launch-entry suits, transferred to launchpad and enter the rescue orbiter.

* T–3 Hours: Final hold for "GO-NO GO" decision by Mission Control.

* T=0: LAUNCH OF STS-300 RESCUE SHUTTLE

* T+2 Minutes: SRB Separation

* T+8 Minutes: Main Engine Cut-Off (MECO) and ET separation.

* T+11 Minutes: Rescue shuttle in orbit.

* T+2 Days: Rescue shuttle docks with ISS after thorough inspection of heat shielding tiles.

* T+4 Days (earliest if no tile damage): Rescue shuttle, now with 11 astronauts (rescue crew plus regular shuttle crew), undocks from ISS.

* T+5 Days: Shuttle deorbits over Indian or Pacific Ocean for landing at either Kennedy Space Center or Edwards Air Force Base in California. A Russian Progress resupply spacecraft is launched at later date to resupply ISS crew.

Okay, 40 days, that's a long time. Not disputing that. But every story I've seen involving the Russian offer says they'll have sufficient Soyuz to evac the orbiter compliment by Feburary. As in, six months from now.

ISS in it's current configuration can't support nine people for six months. Holding out for the Russians is a good way of condemning the crew to a slow death. This isn't about Bush or looking weak, it's about the Russians don't have the spacecraft necessary to do the job.

So stay calm. If something goes wrong - not likely, but possible - then Atlantis will save the day. It'll be the end of the space shuttle program, which makes me sad (despite everything, I still think fondly of the shuttle), but it won't be the huge tragedy I think a lot of people are expecting.

[daleo]

24. The Russians said they could go in three flights

So, that would reduce the load on the space station in the duration. I read that the re-supplied ISS could last 56 days or so. Anyway, I have nothing against using the other shuttle, or the Russians. Whatever works.

Of course this all presupposes that the other shuttle doesn't end up having similar problems.

By the way, can they guide the shuttle down un-piloted without jettisoning it in the sea?

[Emperor_Norton_II]

25. Unmanned shuttle flights

They could bring it all the way down, but there has to be somebody onboard to lower the landing gear. Otherwise, all you do is crash the orbiter.

[daleo]

36. That sounds like a rather strange oversight.

You would think that would be controllable from Houston.

I am reminded of the book "The Right Stuff", where Tom Wolfe talks about the conflict between piloting the spacecraft and just going along for the ride. According to the book, the astronauts were adamant that they should actually take an important role in controlling the spacecraft. Perhaps this is an outcome of that debate.

[Emperor_Norton_II]

37. Spot on.

The astronaut argument was something along the lines of "a computer error could cause the doors to open during reentry, and then we'd lose the ship and crew." Reading between the lines, it's another offshoot of the old Right Stuff debate.

[reprobate]

27. You can guarantee that something won't happen to Atlantis on launch?

Let's be honest. The shuttle has been obsolete almost since first launch. It's been a political football from the start.

The shuttle was designed to be a space truck to ferry components of a space station into orbit, which was to be the jumping off point for the moon and mars. Once the space station was complete the shuttle was to be replace by a space plane to take people into orbit to the space station. Meanwhile heavy payloads where to be orbited by unmanned heavy lift rockets.

We are using the shuttle for thirty years beyond it's designed lifetime. Every time a shuttle reaches orbit it is structurally stressed to the point of near failure. To continue trying to launch this dynosaur is to invite disaster.

Once the original space station plan was eliminated, the shuttle became a truck without a job. So they came up with these 'make work' jobs like launching satelites, something that can be done cheaper and better by multistage unmanned rockets. It's my opinion that the origninal plan was shelved because Vietnam was taking too much money that the military needed for killing slant eyed people.

A rational government would have continued the origninal moon-mars program and built a space plane and real space station. We would have been far more advanced technologicly by now had this been done. Not only in space, but advanced in medecine and all other field that basic research could forward.

But the American government has never been rational. It's always been controlled by those who forward their own greed.

[anotherdrew]

32. plus, I think we're now out of heavy lift rockets too

I think the last titan was launched late last year. We are basically done in space. Bush's bullshit moon-mars plan will never go anywhere. They won't spend the money to actually do anything, and bush will be long out of office before anything could even start to get underway anyway. Then that mission will also quietly die. Anyway it's only about destroying NASA science capability, after all all the science stuff contradicts the bible.

[Emperor_Norton_II]

33. Can you guarantee that something won't happen to Soyuz on launch?

Let's not lie to ourselves, here. The Soyuz has had its share of significant fuckups as well, it's not some magical near-perfect spacecraft that can do anything better than the shuttle.

Launching spacecraft by stacking them on top of a load of high explosives and then setting it off is inherently risky. Doesn't matter if it's Atlantis in a month or a Soyuz in six, there is risk involved. My point in the above post was, since consumables on ISS are the line for any rescue mission it's better to go with the shuttle in one month than risk having to send multiple Soyuz over a period of six months.

Note carefully that I didn't disagree about the history of the shuttle program: you're right in the general, though I could quibble about the details; NASA got hit with budget cuts after Apollo 11, since we'd "won" the space race Nixon felt he could get away with it. Then the OPEC embargo kicked the shit out of the economy so there was no money to spare, and NASA cut a deal with DoD (which is why the orbiter looks like a flying penguin instead of something more airliner-esque) and then they inflated the launch rate to justify the cost... it's a mess. I could go on, but LBN probably ain't the place for it. ;)

[nine30]

35. Lucky us !

Thankfully we dont have to deal with THAT kind of problem any more !

"..It's my opinion that the origninal plan was shelved because Vietnam was taking too much money that the military needed .."

[anotherdrew]

31. without all shuttles operational we're going to loose the ISS

remember the repug ape-brained assholes in congress don't like the 'international' aspect so much, and have done all they can short of out right hostility to cold sholder our partners in the ISS. Without shuttles we CAN NOT maintain the ISS in orbit. It's curently looking like the shuttles may be OVER for good.

[Emperor_Norton_II]

34. We can maintain it, we just can't *finish* it.

The thing's still half-built, remember? We need the orbiter's cargo bay to haul the remaining modules and truss segments. Keeping it aloft is fairly easy using Progress cargo rockets. Finishing it is another story altogether.

[rfkrfk]

44. the easiest way to finish the ISS --> just say, 'its finished'

We need some new thinking,
or perhaps they could build the rest of the ISS
as the top stage of a rocket, and launch
thw whole thing all at once.

Why do they even need people,
to do another zero-G corn seed experiment?

The problem with the current shuttle is,
bringing back lots of extra weight, the engines.
Nasa needs to get rid of obsolete thinking.

The 'glider' style of landing needs to be modernized,
I suggest landing on the ocean, as a new approach.

Nasa coulda bought Mir, for next to nothing.
at least Mir was finished.

[DeepModem Mom]

22. kick

[PATRICK]

23. Watching complete coverage

is literally like watching paint try, especially when they are painting and patching the damage to the tiles. Sure they have their little group reports to various media outlets for the positive pitch stuff to the ignorant gee whiz I just woke up newscasters. But the routine they won't like tot show you is the tedious wrenching, brush painting the bare tiles, gluing, etc.

It reminds me of the repairmen at work who in the last days of any old machine would use rubber bands and paper clips to keep it going. I know that isn't fair but in no way would anyone like to see more the mundane but hair-raising (or humiliating) picture of what is actually going on up there to try to get back down safely.

Their reasons for the four stalwarts in the reduced crew (out of caution) is also backfiring a bit when more hands are needed. I am not sure how to characterize the news reporting which alternates between alarmism to soothing boosterism(the NASA PR team does not have Rove's clout but the media is well broken to the traces). The astronauts intend to be fairly honest but it would do the news people well to have someone, someone at least with lots of coffee, to follow the entire mission and get a better picture.

[pimpbot]

26. Breaking news!! Dubya to call the astronauts!

Rumors say * will tell them to "keep up the hard work!" "I know what hard work is like."

I guess hes done with his brush for the morning.....

[Gormy Cuss]

40. Good thinking. Guess what W did this morning?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1670983

Those astronauts are in such trouble. I hope they have plenty of duck tape and chewing gum. I had heard that the Russians offered to transport them and our government said no thanks. Anyone else hear that?
If that's true and the shuttle doesn't make it back intact, that would be so stupidly tragic.

[anotherdrew]

28. "yank out" ... is that the engineering term?

the risk is that when they yank this out, it takes a couple tiles with it...

I hope they use the scissors instead...

[daleo]

38. I wondered about that too.

I also heard that the astronaut might have to cut it with a hacksaw, while holding it taut with a pair of pliers. I don't know just how fragile the tiles are (one report I read compared them to styrofoam, but that seems a bit much) but it seems awfully dicey. Anyone who has had to use hand tools in extreme cold, while in bulky gloves, knows how the simplest tasks can become remarkably difficult.

[nine30]

30. My recomendation is to dump the shuttle..

..and return to earth a few at a time in the Russian capsules, and then build new shuttles from a scratch.

Heaven forbid, if another disaster occurs NASA will not recover for over a decade.

[anotherdrew]

39. why not leave it in orbit and attach it for good to the ISS

would have to not structurally attach it but maybe it could stay up there if worse comes to worse. (I'm sure it won't happen though)

another thought.. too bad we couldn't have put a reentry vehicle in the cargo bay

[TrogL]

42. too heavy to move with the ISS's engines

and it would serve no useful purpose

[anotherdrew]

43. true, but it wouldn't have to be attached, and it has it's own engines

not sure if the modifications could be made to keep it functional on-orbit for long periods, but there would be a great space tug. Maybe coat it in a layer of ice to keep more tiles from coming off... I don't know, but it would make good science fiction at least.

[Javaman]

45. A little bondo on the belly...

Personally, I think this is great.

I think it's perfectly within the astronauts ability and job discription to do these sorts of repairs.

Hell, the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo crews were the can do type and did all sort of improvising in orbit.