WP: Northwest, Delta expected to file for bankruptcy soon

[Newsjock]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2002415409_airlines02.html

By Keith L. Alexander
The Washington Post

WASHINGTON — Northwest and Delta Air Lines are likely to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in mid-September, a month before a more-restrictive bankruptcy law goes into effect, bankruptcy experts and airline insiders say.

The airlines are expected to delay any action until around the Labor Day weekend to avoid distressing employees during the busy summer travel period.

Northwest and Delta continue to post significant losses while trying to cut costs and adjust to record high fuel prices.

Last week, Northwest reported a second-quarter loss of $225 million, compared with a loss of $182 million for the same quarter in 2004. It is losing about $4 million a day.

... Under the new law, companies in Chapter 11 are barred from paying retention bonuses to executives unless the executives prove they have job offers elsewhere.

more

[librarycard]

1. "I look forward to" listening to the Chimp discuss his "confidence in"

the US economy, lying to us about how "incredibly good" it is.

[rfkrfk]

2. tax on jet fuel for international flight... zero

tax on jet fuel for domestic flight {US} is
just over four cents a gallon
{not a typo , four cents , $ 0.043 per gallon}

these fleabag airlines will be replaced by some
other fleabag airlines, who cares ?

[Puglover]

3. I've worked for Northwest for

26 years. How easily you dismiss my "fleabag" company. Next time you're rolling down a runway on a jet that weighs oh say 500,000 pounds with 260,000 pounds of fuel I'm sure it will matter to you that the flight crew and plane is owned and operated by a "fleabag" airline. Or have you ever been on a plane before?
:eyes:
Tell me, did you apply for an airline job and not get hired maybe?

edit spelling

[BlueCollar]

4. BRAVO

I also work for an airline...Well said.

[Nashyra]

51. Airline Employee

My husband and I both work for an airine and I don't think of us as a "fleabag". There might be some "fleabag" managers, however the great majority of airline employees are hardworking dedicated people whose rate of pay and wages have always depended on seniority, the longer you stay the better paid and the better your retirement. The airlines have benefited in this in the area of SAFETY, the more experienced a pilot the better odds of having a safe flight. That is what you don't read in the press, in this industry time served is essiential for passenger safety. The employees have given back what management has lost and then some, and after a life of working and improving the bottom line safety record for these companies the management makes decisions and takes bonuses with employees furloughed and then claims they can not pay for their retirement, their longevity is what helped the safest airline industry in the world stay that way. And please no horific examples of crashes, no one or any system is 100% perfect, but imagine how many more incedents that would have happened without the "senior" people at the airline.

[Sgent]

5. As a fairly freqent travler

with over 1 million butt in seat miles with Northwest, I thank you for your service -- and believe personally that NWA is the best domestic carrier flying today.

I am surprised at the financial troubles though... at least the last time I looked, NWA was in fairly good shape compared to everyone else.

[BlueCollar]

6. Actually I work for another one of the majors

but I resent it when people denigrate us. Thanks for flying though...even if it is on the redtail...:-)

[Puglover]

11. Yes, I agree thanks for

your kind thoughts. NWA is in good shape if you compare to other majors. We starting cutting back even before 9/11. However the huges loses are simply unsustainable.
Lol...planes are jammed packed with people and we're sinking. What a great way to lose money!

To illustrate how lean we are when UAL filed for bankrupcy they had around 70k employees with around 100 more flights a day the NWA....we had only 35k employees...

[BlueCollar]

14. I know the feeling...

the mechanics had a chance to do the deal properly but let their elitism get in the way. Now all their work is going away and their "union" has proven to be an abject failure.

We were criticised at AA for striking a concessionary agreement to avoid bankruptcy and so far it has worked.

Good luck

[Nashyra]

53. Keep retentions bonuses away from executives

We should put the heat on Arpey to keep the bounuses in the employees pot until he can run an airline that has recalled all it's employees, heck maybe those bonuses should be put in a "lock box" to help AA retirees, all AA retirees.

[merwin]

20. With much of the maintenance being done on these planes now outsourced

to other countries, I don't have much confidence in ANY of the big airlines anymore. I spent about 4 years of my life on an airplane (generally split between northwest/delta/united/jetblue/southwest) and never once had a problem with any of the jetblue/southwest planes. However, there were many problems with random malfunctions on the northwest/delta/united planes. It's REALLY fun when your plane is re-routed 1500 miles from your destination because a de-icer is broken.

[myrna minx]

22. As a person from Minneapolis who has traveled on

Northwest for thousands and thousands of miles, I thank you and yours for getting me to my various destinations safely. :toast: It's too bad that the execs get their golden parachutes while the rank and file of the airlines get screwed AGAIN.

[Jara sang]

24. Just because YOU work for an airline

That means I have to suck up and like a big corporation? I don't think so.

[Puglover]

33. You make no sense whatsoever.

I never said you had to like squat. But as a progressive you might think about the 35k people who work for NWA. Rather then taking false points from my post why not try and make a valid point rather then do a cheap hit and run.

[jus_the_facts]

50. Rather *then* taking false points..rather *then* do a cheap hit and run...

:rofl:

....makin' a LOT of sense there...you've done that very thing all over this thread....hit and run that is. :eyes:

.....and off topic...as a progressive you might THINK about the millions of people that're DYING from the pollution your corporation spews everytime one of their jets takes to the skies and how those 35K workers could be better *used* in more progressive job endeavor like say some alternative fuel supply industry...oh but I bet NWA wouldn't go for any of THAT noise. :eyes:

[Nashyra]

54. There is a difference

between "Airline and "Employee", the airline is run by management sometimes very poorly, the employees are those who get you from point A to point B safely. Reminds me of a sticker the flight attendants used to have on their suit cases when flying a very demanding flight sequence.
"I'm here to save your ass not kiss it" I don't know of any airline employee that wants any one to suck up to them but I do know that I expect the same respect for my profession as everyone else expects of their own, and anyone that works hard whether a stay at home mom, union employee, self owned business etc, you get the point deserves respect. The employees are not the the "Corporate Board"

[pitohui]

32. tell em puglover

tired of the "everybody should be southwest" crap

southwest makes $$$ on fuel hedging, not service, they don't provide service and they cherry pick their routes

when all the "everybody should be southwest" people are complaining cuz their airport is shut down for lack of flights or cuz they can't book an affordable internat'l flight, i'll be the first to horse laugh

northwest and delta are great companies facing huge challenges with no easy solution

they are not fleabags

[Puglover]

34. Thanks.

Running a hub out of Tokyo is a little more complicated then Houston Las Vegas milkruns. Oh but I forget, the rocket scientists bashing the airlines in this thread know everything there is to know about aviation.
:eyes:

[nine30]

47. I worked for United for 4 years

..during its heyday in the late nineties and early 2000s. It was just a great great airline! It makes me sad to see the state the company is in today. 9/11 was a HUGE blow to us as is the high fuel prices and the relentless assault from those tiny mosquito airlines. And yes management is also to blame to some degree.

[rfkrfk]

68. airlines support higher fuel taxes ... {on everybody else}

airlines support lower speed limits {on somebody else}
thats what I don't like

this is my opinion
airlines are destroying themselves finantialy,
spending every f****** penny the can find on imported fuel,
because they think that in doing so, they will be bigger than
the other airlines when fuel goes back to ten cents.

changing the subject just a little,
could somebody explain the decisions made by 'United'.
stock symbol ualaq.ob {ob, the bulletin board}
'United', I guess, is some rinky-dink three plane
unsceduled airline, with a market cap of 150 million.
I was reading somewhere that United claims it spent
700 million on a baggage system for Denver airport, or wherever.
why didn't they just hire some bums off the street, to throw bags?.
Pay em two bucks over minimum wage, that would make lots of friends.

to answer your question, no.
I have several friends that do/did work for airlines,
they are all nice people. It is the external behavior of management,
that I don't like.

I have nothing againt people who work in the hospitality trade,
they work hard for their money.
I just don't want the 99 percent of the country's jobs to
consist of, maids, cooks, and cab drivers,
like it is in countries operated like amusement parks.
Tourism is bad.

I know that there are lots of people who would like
to fly, if they could fly cross-country for 29 bucks, preferrably
less. United needs to pay attention.

[Bosso 63]

7. Northwest is based in here in MN

They have outsourced a lot of the mechanics jobs, but there are thousands of real people this will effect, so I sure as hell care!

[Puglover]

8. The mechanics agreed to the exact number

of jobs that were outsourced in their contract, a fact that doesn't seem to get published. They figured a huge raise (which they got) was worth the risk. And no I'm not in managment.

[Tesha]

10. And lots of them (most of them?) probably voted for Bush. (NT)

[fasttense]

9. Must be a sign of our great economy that the airlines

are filing bankruptcy along with the car makers. With only a 5% unemployment rate to boot. Yes the economy is doing wonderfully, just ask brush and his minions, they'll tell you.

[noonwitch]

12. I hate flying Northwest, but it will be bad for a lot of people

If it goes under. I hate the way they lose luggage and every flight I've ever taken on their airline has been overbooked, causing connecting problems later on.

I prefer American.

[BlueCollar]

13. attagirl !!!

:toast:

[Puglover]

16. One thing I learned a LONG time ago

is that people have their favorite airlines and their least favs. I never take it personally. All I care about is a SAFE trip. When you're stacked up over O'hare on a blizzardy night I want to KNOW the pilot, air traffic controller, dispatchers etc. are competant and not minimum wage earners for a "fleabag" carrier.

These days MSP is like a fancy shopping mall. Before I get on an airplane I stop and grab whatever food I feel like and make sure I have a little lunch. But I've done that for years as pass traveling doesn't guarentee you a meal. I wish other folks would figure it out. Fine dining on an airplane was gone long ago if it ever were the case.
I had lobster newberg and caviar on TWA in 1st class once. But that was 25 years ago. Ah for the good ole days!

[jus_the_facts]

15. they shouldn't be allowed to file for bankruptcy protection.....

...they should go under and suffer like your average 'murican. :nopity:

[Puglover]

17. Huh?

What are you talking about?

[jus_the_facts]

18. the rules should apply to everyone equally...but they don't....

The Congress has passed sweeping changes to the Bankruptcy Code, designed to restrict the availability of a discharge in Chapter 7 bankruptcy and substantially reduce the relief available in Chapter 13 bankruptcy. The bill is effective October 17th, 2005.

It's impossible to predict with certainty how the changes reviewed below will be implemented and interpreted by bankruptcy trustees and judges. What is clear is that under the new law there will be far more hoops for the debtor to jump through to get a fresh start. The process will be more expensive for the debtor and the court system, and there will be an extended period of uncertainty as the players work their way through the changes.....


http://www.lawyers.com/lawyers/A~1017686~LDC/PENDING+BANKRUPTCY+LAW+CHANGES.html

http://www.creditinfocenter.com/bankruptcy/bkhighlights.shtml

http://www.bankruptcyaction.com/bankreform.htm

http://cobrands.business.findlaw.com/bankruptcy/nolo/ency/B0B66870-4C52-4303-919B10B9611D3EF9.html


The bankruptcy legislation was packaged and promoted as much-needed "reform." But it will be devastating to many people who find themselves out of work, ill or injured, and over their head in debt.
The vast majority of bankruptcy filers are not wealthy individuals trying to cheat the system. The average person filing for bankruptcy earns just $22,000 per year (according to a 1999 study by federal bankruptcy judges). Most have suffered a significant period of unemployment before filing. According to Consumers Union, among elderly debtors, 85% cite medical or job problems as the reason for bankruptcy. Consumers Union also says that single moms trying to make ends meet make up a large portion of bankruptcy filers -- divorced women raising children are 500% more likely to end up in bankruptcy than married or single women without children.



If the Legislation Becomes Law, File Quickly. The potential restrictions on bankruptcy may drastically affect your bankruptcy options. If the legislation becomes law and you are contemplating bankruptcy, consider filing before the new rules take effect (180 days after it becomes law).

[Puglover]

30. Thanks for the links...

but FYI...the changes take place 10/17 ALONG with many changes to corportate filing. Until then both people and companies are subject to the old rules.

[mn9driver]

21. "They"? You're talking about "Me". And my family.

If Northwest goes under, there will be no nice airline captain job for me to step into. It doesn't work that way. It took me ten years of flying just to get here, and I've put in 17 years on top of that. There are currently thousands and thousands of airline workers on the street.

I've come to terms with the fact that my pension has been stolen, that my social security will be stolen, and that in bankruptcy, I will soon be expected to spend 22 days a month away from home for about half of what I was originally promised in pay and benefits. It sucks, but I can live with it.

I don't need you or anyone else hoping it'll get even worse.

[jus_the_facts]

26. where pray tell did I say I HOPED it gets worse for you and yours....

.....and for the record I've never been able to AFFORD to fly anywhere...at least you had it good for awhile...a decent job and with some security....others of us are much less fortunate.

[mn9driver]

27. Oh, that would be the part where you said:

"they shouldn't be allowed to file for bankruptcy protection.....


...they should go under and suffer like your average 'murican."

[jus_the_facts]

28. read into that what you want...and suck on that corporate teet....

...for as long as you can....don't be surprised to learn you matter not in the grand scheme of things like the rest of us *average* peons...or is that why you gripe so viciously now that reality has brought you *down to earth*? :think:

[Puglover]

36. Sorry lady but the

"average american" flies alot and at very reasonable fares. You simply sound pissed off, bitter and jealous. Not pretty at all.

[jus_the_facts]

37. oh then please excuse me for being a *below average* american....

....and if *i* sound simply pissed off or bitter then so be it...if you aren't then you haven't been paying attention....and jealousy isn't one of my traits regardless of what you'd like to *believe*. :eyes:

[Puglover]

38. You're the one who used the term "average american"

Excuse me if I comment on it.

[jus_the_facts]

41. I guess you're just used to using those *corporate* statistics.....

....seems your plight in choice of professions and the results you've been handed at yours and theirs *expense* is the problem...seems you can't handle the truth regardless of it being *right* in your face.

[Puglover]

44. Would you care to rethink this post

so that it makes a teensy tiny bit of sense?
Thanks.

[jus_the_facts]

46. maybe you should reread some of yours like this one.....

One thing I learned a LONG time ago
is that people have their favorite airlines and their least favs. I never take it personally. All I care about is a SAFE trip. When you're stacked up over O'hare on a blizzardy night I want to KNOW the pilot, air traffic controller, dispatchers etc. are competant and not minimum wage earners for a "fleabag" carrier.

These days MSP is like a fancy shopping mall. Before I get on an airplane I stop and grab whatever food I feel like and make sure I have a little lunch. But I've done that for years as pass traveling doesn't guarentee you a meal. I wish other folks would figure it out. Fine dining on an airplane was gone long ago if it ever were the case.
I had lobster newberg and caviar on TWA in 1st class once. But that was 25 years ago. Ah for the good ole days.

....seems *average* isn't in your realm of reality..most *people* do NOT jet set on their favorite or least fave airline regardless of what your corporate masters would lead you to believe....your *average* person is worried about being able to afford to get to work if the're lucky to have a job...never had the advantage of any...good ol' days...shame you've got to fall so far so fast in regard to your profession...gettin' the drift now MAN?! :eyes:

[Puglover]

56. ROFL...at least the post is written in a coherent

understandable fashion. You seem to think I'm some executive. We were on passes. Space available passes. No space and you go nowhere. The "cost" of the PASSES on TWA was 25.00 round trip and they were nice enough to board us in 1st class; which I could NEVER afford if I was paying. The simple fact that I need to explain this to you is illustrative of your TOTAL ignorance on the subject of aviation and the airline biz. FYI I haven't had more then a 1 or 2 percent cost of living raise since 1987. Truth.

When post replies like:

"read into that what you want...and suck on that corporate teet....
...for as long as you can....don't be surprised to learn you matter not in the grand scheme of things like the rest of us *average* peons...or is that why you gripe so viciously now that reality has brought you *down to earth*? "

and

"they shouldn't be allowed to file for bankruptcy protection.....
...they should go under and suffer like your average 'murican."

You should expect people to take issue with you.






Lady I'm sorry if you are poor and have never taken a trip. Really. But it's not my fault. It's fairly clear that you are directing you anger and bitterness at people that have a little more materially then yourself. And as for your complaining about the pollution jets make. Well, since you can't time travel back to pre 1901 I guess you'll have to find a way to live with it.



edit spelling

[jus_the_facts]

58. your arrogance speaks for itself as well.....

...and your own ignorance in grammar does too it seems as you can't use *then and than* correctly....especially you'll have to live with the repercussions of the profession your in when it's no longer a viable commodity...and that is a matter of WHEN not IF...hope you learn to cope with all THAT. Bu-bye.

[mn9driver]

63. OK.

I understand that you have lots of contempt for corporations and those who work for them. You also believe that I don't understand "the grand scheme of things" as well as you do. Have fun. Bye.

[Tesha]

42. You understand that as oil prices continue to rise, it *WILL* become worse

> I don't need you or anyone else hoping it'll get even worse.

You understand that as oil prices continue to rise, it *WILL*
become worse, right? It is almost inevitable that we (here on
this planet) will not be able to sustain anything like the fleet
of oil-guzzling jets that now whiz around the planet carrying
cut-rate tourists from place to place.

In the near future, you simply will be displaced, no matter what
anyone here (including you) hopes or hopes against.

Tesha

[mn9driver]

61. Some numbers for you.

This is why I rarely try to have discussions like this, but here goes:

JFK-LAX roundtrip airfare off of any cheap ticket page as of today: $336
JFK-LAX mileage on roads, from Mapquest, roundtrip: 5558 miles
Average US gas price, east coast, midwest, mountain and west coast, averaged, from DOT as of today: $2.32
Gallons of gas that $336 will buy you: 144.8
MPG required to drive your car for the same as the ticket price: 38
Number of models sold in the US that can do that: 8

Let's assume you own one of those. The trip time will be 6 days, assuming that you only want to drive 13 hours per day. We'll assume that you have someone in LA who will put you up and feed you for free, so we only need to figure four nights in a cheap motel at $30 per night: $120

Assuming that you eat for free at the beginning, middle and end of your trip, you'll need 14 meals on the way, at an average of $5 per meal: $70

Depreciation on your fuel efficient vehicle for a trip this long would conservatively work out to about $1800, but let's cut it in half, assuming that your car is already several years old: $900

Maintenance costs for an average car (oil changes, brakes, tires) amortized in would conservatively be another $90.

Fly JFK-LAX-JFK: $336
Drive JFK-LAX-JFK: $1516

So how can airfares be so low with fuel prices so high? Because jet airliners are extremly fuel efficient. Here's some more math:

757 maximum fuel capacity: 11489 gallons
757 maximum range (dry tanks, no reserve): 5000 miles
757 (200 model) seating capacity: 228 (and yes, they are usually full)

Equals 99 miles per gallon per seat. This doesn't count the thousands of pounds of commercial cargo that we can carry at the same time.

Fuel prices affect everything. You pay more for a loaf of bread when oil goes up. The current bankruptcy crisis in the industry is partly the fault of oil, partly the fault of bad management decisions, and partly due to the desire of airline management to break the unions and gut pensions, pay and working conditions. Contrary to the hopes of some on this thread, Northwest will most likely survive this, and I will continue to work there--just for much lower pay, very little time at home and no retirement.

There is also a Republican-led push in congress right now to raise the maximum retirment age for pilots. I can hardly wait until I'm 65 and putting in 16 hour days on duty. In fact, that will probably be the name of the new industry retirement plan: "Fly 'til You Die".

[Puglover]

66. Great post!

I doubt however that it will cut through some of the breathtaking bullshit on this thread.

[Tesha]

69. "Breathtaking bullshit"? That sounds a lot like a "personal attack"...

...But let's put that aside (for now) and see if we can get to the heart if the matter:

*OIL IS RUNNING OUT*

*AIRPLANES HAVE NO ALTERNATIVE FUEL EXCEPT OIL*

Ground transportation won't end. Pushed hard enough, we can simply switch to
electric railways powered by nuclear energy (hopefully, fusion, but we'll use
fission if that's not ready).

Electric cars, same story.

But airplanes are pretty much shit-out-of-luck. As we all know, the experiments with
nuclear aircraft have all been horror shows. (Well, maybe Bush will get his hydrogen
economy off the ground and you'll be convinced that flying around with tanks full
of cryogenic LH2 is okay (cause metal hydrides, while fine for cars, are probably
a bit heavy for airborne use). Ahh well, maybe we'll just manufacture kerosene
from hydrogen and coal; think it'll be cheap?

So a smart society would start conserving the oil now, so we'd have some left in the
future for those few applications (like aircraft) that really need it. But we've proven
time and time again that we're not a smart society, we're an ignorant, stupid, greedy
society that will keep pumping the oil into our SUVs until it simply isn't affordable
for any purpose.

Given all that, signs seem to be pointing in the direction of aircraft going the way
of the pterodactyl. Maybe not within your lifetime, but soon. Maybe you'd better
hope that 1) we develop the transporter soon and 2) all those transporters need
to be operated by high-priced technicians retrained from ex-airline pilots.

Tesha

[nine30]

You are a captain ?

That is sooo cool !! As a kid I always wanted to be a pilot(who didnt? :-)), but the closest I have come is MS Fsim 2000/2002 !

I worked for United for 4 1/2 years and though some of my friends got to visit the famed Denver simulator, I myself never got around to. I regret that now that I am no longer employed with them.

Anyway, I wish you the best..hope things work out well for you.

[peacebuzzard]

19. As an insider, I see firsthand the disproportionate corporate greed of

these top execs playing musical chairs w/ the airlines awarding themselves fat "retainer talent" bonuses. They purposely rape the coffers and slash and burn the airlines and flock to the bankruptcy courts for protection. By the posted article I can understand now if NWA will file for bankruptcy. The planes are more full now than pre 9/11 yet there is no profit? Not if you keep skimming the top, and playing hostile tactics w/ the employees. It is sad to have to witness everyday the loss of co-worker's jobs while America corporations race to the bottom. Most mechanics voted dem, (average) while the pilot group (go figure) averaged out in favor of the repug (higher tax bracket, military).
I cannot feel sorry for any out-of-work pilot who voted the cabal in, and there are perhaps 10,000 out of work, or currently underemployed (flying but working for tens of thousands less than what they were used). They voted themselves out of a job by drinking the koo-laid. A handful that actually thought it out, and went for Gore or Kerry are themselves appalled w/ their peers.
And yes, Puglover, most people do not know the inside story of who you want working on those planes when it is you standing in line for ticket or luggage or strapped in and barreling down the asphalt. ;-) ;-)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

23. Ever since moving to a location right under a major approach to MSP

I have to wonder if NWA has been running more flights than it can afford to while at the same time trying to keep other airlines out.

With the windows open in the summer or when I'm outside, I can hear low-flying planes, all but a few Northwest, every five minutes or so, sometimes two at a time on slightly different coordinates, from 5AM to midnight.

That's an awful lot of planes to refuel. If I were CEO, I'd ask my operations management bean counters to figure out exactly how many planes the company could afford to fly at various projected oil prices and passenger loads. Then I'd cede the remaining slots to other airlines.

Yet Northwest is trying to get the state to pay for a major airport expansion that wouild involve sending all rivals to the charter terminal. And as a World Perks member, I'm continually getting e-mail updates about how Northwest is adding new destinations. :shrug:

[pitohui]

35. msp is northwest hub

that is why most flights would be northwest, no conspiracy here

what airline might you suggest take over the flights at msp that northwest is not making a profit on

the price of fuel is the price

no one is making a profit who provides internat'l service

would you like us all to walk to narita

[Puglover]

39. I doubt that more then 1/2 of the people who

are bloviating in this thread know where Narita is.

[Tesha]

43. I know where it is, I've been there, and the odds are that...

I know where Narita is, I've been there, I may be there again next
summer, and the odds are that 99% of the travel between America and
Narita is not really needed. Soon, it won't be possible.

Tesha

[Lydia Leftcoast]

45. Northwest uses Narita as its Asian hub, so if you fly to anywhere

else in Asia, chances are good that NWA will make you cool your heels in Narita before going on to your destination, even if your destination is Singapore.

By the way, if your layover in Narita is six hours or more, I suggest a quick trip into the nearby town of Narita (Tokyo is too far away) to see the lovely temple grounds, have a quick meal in one of the hole-in-the-wall restaurants, and maybe buy some souvenirs. Just go to the Keisei station inside your terminal, buy a 250 yen ticket from the machine, board a local train (one that does NOT say "Skyliner" on the side) and get off at the first stop outside the airport.

The Japanese airlines also do this, but it makes sense in their case.

[pitohui]

52. madness

99% of internet statistics are made up on the spot

the odds are that 99% of the travel between America and
Narita is not really needed. Soon, it won't be possible.



on what grounds do you make such claims

[Tesha]

55. Well let's see...

> > the odds are that 99% of the travel between America and
> > Narita is not really needed. Soon, it won't be possible.

> on what grounds do you make such claims

Well, here in the modern world of telephones, cell phones, E-mail,
instant messages, video conferencing, video instant messaging, fax,
satellite pagers, electronic bulletin boards, the web, wikis, and
all the other ways we're placed in permanent contact with everyone
else, very little business travel is actually "needed". Mostly,
it's folks taking advantage by using business travel to pick up
the tab for tourism that they'd like to do.

And tourism really isn't "needed", either. As Gee Dubya himself
proved, you can even get to be the Pretzeldent of the United States
without ever really setting foot outside the country (well, excepting
maybe Tijuana).

Plus, rising oil prices will soon make it economically infeasible
to fly except for the most pressing of reasons.

Face it, the airline industry is just a "dead man flying".

Tesha

[pitohui]

57. proof of this ?

Mostly,
it's folks taking advantage by using business travel to pick up
the tab for tourism that they'd like to do.


simply do not believe this is so

statistics and cites please?

incredible claims require some small amount of proof

[Tesha]

59. Fine. You don't need to believe me.

But when you study the travel activities of just about *ANY* major
American corporation in the recent years, you'll see *HUGE* cutbacks
in travel. More and more, it's all being done electronically and
somehow, most of the business is still being done, even without
the face-to-face meetings.

But go ahead, deny that it's so. That way, you can be enjoy the
full effect of the surprise when the airline industry simply
vanishes.

Tesha

[pitohui]

62. the planes are flying fully loaded

businesses cut out unnecessary travel yrs ago, before and after 9-11, yet planes are full

more people are flying than ever before in human history

and they ain't flying to fill their idle hours, they're standing on line, going through security, and sitting in crowded seats because they must get where they're going

ergo the airline industry is needed, it's filling a need, it ain't going away any time soon

absent any proof to the contrary, i'll believe my lying eyes

[Puglover]

60. Pitohui

I wouldn't bother. There are a few folks on this thread that only want to disrupt no matter what the argument is. According to them the world is soon to return to God knows what. I would assume they are referring to wards peak oil but trying to understand the hyperbolic nonsense is tough if not impossible. How do you argue with someone who is in some twisted way happy that thousands of people may lose their livelihoods?

[pitohui]

64. you're right

the logic of "the industry is going away and we don't need it anyway cuz we have a cell phone" is beyond me

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. I know that MSP is a hub, but I've also read something about

how the hub system might not be the greatest development. (I assume it was based on the FedEx concept, although FedEx doesn't have as many flights to each destination.)

My point is that Northwest should not be expanding its list of destinations if it's in such trouble. It should cede to other airlines destinations that it cannot serve profitably.

[pitohui]

48. someone has to fly to these destinations

again i would ask what airline would take the non-profitable destinations

cede to united? that is the competition, oh wait, they are in bankruptcy already

there is no profit in these routes yet it is important to american business for people to be able to get to asia

it can't be just about the profit

if we are to remain a world power, we have to fly to asia

these flights are packed, it is not like they are flying half empty planes a la 1982

[KamaAina]

65. Someone *definitely* has to fly to *our* destinations!

Last time I checked, the USA had 50 states, not 48, and one of them occupies a chain of islands in mid-Pacific, only slightly closer to California than to Japan. How would the airline-bashers propose to allow Hawai'i residents to exercise our constitutional right to travel "between the several States"? By bringing the Lurline out of mothballs -- if it hasn't been scrapped years ago -- for a four-day trip to San Francisco? And then what? Bush** is trying to kill what rail service we have. Greyhound is cutting off sizable towns like Bloomington, Ind.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

67. However, Hawaii's tourist industry ensures that

someone will want to fly to it.

When I was living in Portland, Hawaii seemed to be the #1 honeymoon destination by far, and every college on the West Coast has a huge contingent of Island students.

I'm talking about flights from Minneapolis to Des Moines or Northwest adding flights to places that are already well-served by other airlines, such as the Caribbean.

[SoCalDem]

25. It kills me to see the airline industry so poorly run these days

The young ones here never saw the airline business in its heyday..Until the cannibalism started, everyone seemed to do just fine, and travel was an enjoyable experience...

I fear that this is about copying United's pension bailout scheme.. I feel sad for all the people who toiled away for all those years, expecting a decent pension..

The late 90's/early '00's will be all about screwing the Boomers out of our retirements and old age security:cry:

[TygrBright]

29. Hey!! I know how to fix it!!!

Let's de-regulate the airline industry!! That'll solve all our problems!

The Magic of Unchecked, Unfettered, Unregulated Capitalism will result in higher profits for shareholders AND lower airfares for consumers!

Oh, wait...

bewilderedly,
Bright

[daleo]

31. So long to your pension checks

Lots of big companies will play this one now.

[Lindacooks]

49. Well, as long as CORPORATIONS can still file bankruptcy...

I mean, in October people won't be able to, but at least we're protecting those warm hearted and decent corporations!

:sarcasm: