Cardinal insists condoms unsafe against AIDS

[MaineDem]

ROME, Oct 15 (Reuters) - The Vatican's top man on family issues defended his view on Wednesday that the HIV/AIDS virus could be spread even if condoms were used but fellow cardinals distanced themselves from him.

"Relying on condoms is like betting on your own death," Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, the president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, told Reuters in an interview.

He said the World Health Organisation's (WHO) argument that condoms reduce risk of infection by 90 percent proves his point.

"To think that there is a risk of 10 or 15 percent is like playing Russian roulette," the Colombian cardinal said.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/B592197.htm

I think he should stop now.

[GinaMaria]

1. And what is the risk

of not wearing one at all?

Excuse me. I have to go put some makeup on the big red palm print on my forehead.

[oldcoot]

16. He wants abstinence

I think that he wants people to wait until marriage to have sex and only have sex within marriage. He may think that if more people believe that condoms are unsafe, they will decide to wait. He is advocating an "all or nothing" approach, which is unrealistic. Unfortunately, this approach is not just limited to Cardinal Trujillo or the Catholic Church. Religious conservatives in this country have argued that we should not teach children about condoms in health classes because condoms are not 100% effective in preventing AIDS.

These religious conservatives have no grasp of human nature. They seem to forget that humans engage in risky behavior on a daily basis. For example, how many of us drive a car? Most of us know that driving a car can be dangerous even if we take all the precautions (wearing a seatbelt, following the speed limit, etc.) but we still choose to drive.

[Flying_Pig]

2. This man is pushing death on millions. Why? What kind of "church"

would do such a thing? How much death and miseryc an this bunch cause, before people see how immoral their message is?

[HereinSD]

5. This is one reason

I was born and raised catholic. This is one of the reasons I choose not to support it anymore. Honestly, it's evident that the church still doesn't get it. Then again, its being run by age 55+ White Men, so what do you expect.

[arwalden]

9. Welcome To DU, HereinSD! --- Excellent 1st Post.

:hi:

[muriel_volestrangler]

6. the church's business

is births, marriages, and deaths. Condoms cut down on these.

[NickB79]

26. Most HIV cases are in "heathen" countries

Why do they care if all those unbelievers die?

[Bozola]

3. haw! is it just me or is this sentence a little odd

"that the HIV/AIDS virus could be spread even if condoms were used but fellow cardinals distanced themselves from him"

Bwahahahaha! It make it sound like the Cardinal is a carrier.

[atreides1]

4. And The Cardinal...

...would know this how? Sounds like he's speaking from personal experience, I wonder how many little boys he experimented with, to come to this conclusion.

[truth2power]

8. Ya' beat me to it.

Same thing I was thinking. "And the Cardinal would know this how?" LOL!

[RememberTheCoup]

14. Now this really is Catholic-bashing

I'm all for making valid criticisms of the RC Church and/or its members. I had no problem with the Mother Teresa discussion from yesterday, and I felt those who cried "Catholic-bashing" in that thread did not have a leg to stand on. I think it's fine to blast the Church's position on condoms, birth control, etc. And I think it's certainly reasonable to criticize their policies that enabled and protected pedophile priests. But to suggest that this Cardinal is a child-molester simply because you and I don't like his position on a completely separate issue really does seem to cross the line.

[saigon68]

17. Agreed

It is an ad hominim attack. It has no basis in fact.

Although one could certainly comment that the church's position to this controversy is directly opposite their own personal belief.

The cardinal should also have kept his comments to himself. There are plenty of other things to spend one's time on, rather than worrying about use or non use of condoms by the masses.

[damnraddem]

28. And what the cardinal said IS terrible enough all on its own.

And do note that he is causing waves in the College of Cardinals.

[Evil_Dewers]

7. Cardinal insists condoms unsafe against AIDS...

How would he know unless he's used them on boys?

BTW, I am a Catholic who is utterly disappointed in the US Catholic Church for allowing the pedophile scandal to perpetuate for decades by not getting rid of molesting priests. They should allow priests to marry and allow women priests and actually pay priests a larger stipend (living wage). No more vows of poverty.

Priests now get one free molesting. This is sick.

[arwalden]

10. One Molesting Free? Or The First Time They Are CAUGHT Is Free?

The Catholic church is truly fucked up. Dangerous zealots. Short-sighted.

Keep in mind that these are the same folks that denied the discoveries of Copernicus and Gallileo... called the "heretics"... threatened them with death.

And THESE are the people that millions trust for accurate and informed scientific and medical information???

If any other organization were spewing out such nonsense, they would be SUED as a public health hazard. There would be an immediate injunction to force them to cease and desist their campaign of disinformation.

The Catholic church needs to put a sock in it.

-- Allen

[Teaser]

11. Actually, they're not.

"Keep in mind that these are the same folks that denied the discoveries of Copernicus and Gallileo... called the "heretics"... threatened them with death."


No. These are members of an organization that at one time did these things, but has changed considerably since then. They are not the same "folks."

[arwalden]

12. Oh Brother! Yes, You're Correct. The Ones Who Decried Galileo Are DEAD...

... so *technically* they are indeed NOT the same folks now... are they? Score one for you. --- Whew! I'm glad I've got you to keep me on my toes.


I should have been more clear. I should have been more accurate and said something like "keep in mind that these folks have the same narrow world-view and self-centered mentality of their predecessors who denied the discoveries of Copernicus and Gallileo... called them "heretics"... threatened them with death."

Now THAT would have been more accurate!!

And now that we've got that huge stumbling block out of the way, the greater issue of how short-sighted and conceited and blind the Catholic church is on this issue still hasn't been addressed.

When it comes to this issue, there's no defending the myopia and conceit and cruelty and idiotic folly that the Catholic church is guilty of, again.

I'm guessing that you might have a different opinion or viewpoint on the subject. If you have any comments or if you'd like to try and defend them, I'd be happy to read what you have to say.

-- Allen

[Occulus]

31. Didn't the CC officially 'pardon'

Galileo, like, less than forty years ago?

[xxqqqzme]

23. play fair - wasn't it sometime

in the 70's (the 1970s, that is) the catholic church retracted it's condemnation of Gallileo?

[arwalden]

24. Seems Much Later Than That. I'm Recalling That It Was...

... in the past two or three years.

In any case... I hope my point isn't missed due to my untimely example or the fact that it wasn't literally today's Catholic church that condemned Galileo.

My point is that their narrow, myopic, self-centered, viewpoints are the same now as they were then. They are as incorrect now as they were then.

This will cause much more harm in the long run. Anyone who argues otherwise is simply denying reality. It's clear that the mouthpieces for the Catholic church are living in a fantasy world where science and medicine and REALITY do not exist.

-- Allen

[w4rma]

13. Some insight from Monty Python

Every Sperm Is Sacred
written by: Michael Palin and Terry Jones
From the album "The Meaning Of Life"

DAD:
There are Jews in the world.
There are Buddhists.
There are Hindus and Mormons, and then
There are those that follow Mohammed, but
I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is:
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.

You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on. You're
A Catholic the moment Dad came,

Because

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

GIRL:
Let the heathen spill theirs
On the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is wanted.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

MUM:
Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.

MEN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
WOMEN:
If a sperm is wasted,...
CHILDREN:
...God get quite irate.

PRIEST:
Every sperm is sacred.
BRIDE and GROOM:
Every sperm is good.
NANNIES:
Every sperm is needed...
CARDINALS:
...In your neighbourhood!

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is useful.
Every sperm is fine.
FUNERAL CORTEGE:
God needs everybody's.
MOURNER #1:
Mine!
MOURNER #2:
And mine!
CORPSE:
And mine!

NUN:
Let the Pagan spill theirs
O'er mountain, hill, and plain.
HOLY STATUES:
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.

EVERYONE:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite iraaaaaate!
http://www.leoslyrics.com/listlyrics.php?hid=0qz8KH96NX8%3D

[BonjourUSA]

15. Return to the Middle Age

The long and hard work of the medics in Africa, South America... is going to be annihilated one more time !! What a pity, what a shame, what a bullshit !!!

The Pope's speech in Mexico about this issue has already been a disaster.

[beyurslf]

18. Why does the Cardinal

have to had sex to understand the principle of his arguement. He is stating the condoms are only 90% effective which leaves a 10% chance. Where in that statement does one need sexual experience?

One could argue that condoms are 100% effective.
One could argue (as many have done here) that an all or nothing approach is not sufficient.
One could even argue that without sexual experience and a with a vow of celibacy, the cardinal is not in a legtimate position to say one should resist sex until marriage.
One might even be able to stretch into the arguement that with the current climate and scandal enveloping the heirarchy of the church, that a cardinal does not have the moral authority to decry the sexual mores of a society.
But I just don't see how one can say that because he hasn't had sex, he can't do math. (100% minus 90% leaves a 10% chance.)

[Betty]

29. agreed...

but I think the problem is, as you listed, the "all-or nothing" approach. And he should do the math that 90% effective is better than 0%.

[chapter32]

19. Folks engage in sex no matter what,...

I rather they use condoms than not.

As for the Cardinal himself, if he insists the condoms aren't safe then he doesn't have to use them!

[Forkboy]

20. Forkboy insists Cardinal removes head from ass

[PurityOfEssence]

21. Can we have a definition of ideologue, please?

Something like this: person who will actively ignore any evidence to contradict held beliefs, regardless of the death and destruction caused in the process.

This is absolutely ridiculous, and well in keeping with blinkered religious belief: it doesn't matter that it will HELP, even if it isn't 100%.

Ug, condoms bad. Sex bad. Sex only for babies. Need more Catholics. Ug, more Catholics than any other religion on earth, need more Catholics, must dominate earth, must swamp opposition.

[arwalden]

22. I Like How You Think...

... and how you express yourself.

-- Allen

[truthisfreedom]

25. also claims earth 90% flat and 85% at center of universe, and remaining

percentages not worth considering anyway.

if life is so important, mr. cardinal, that no risk whatsoever should be undertaken, then you should busy yourself doing something REALLY important for the church and the people of planet earth... tell them that safety belts and airbags are like russian roulette, because their numbers are even worse, and tell everyone to NOT DRIVE, STAY HOME FROM CHURCH AND KEEP THEIR MONEY.

[damnraddem]

27. An individual might think a risk of 10-15% unacceptable.

But a public health measure that reduces risks to that level will save many lives, and possibly alter the evolution of the disease itself. This guy is talking through his red hat.

Want to talk about immorality -- this guy needs to be called, if not a murderer, a felon guilty of negligent homicide.

[Liberator_Rev]

30. Teaser thinks "these are not the same folks"

When Jesus criticized the "Religious Right" of his day, he too might have been corrected on the grounds that there was a difference between current and past generations, but this is what he said:

39 Then the Lord said to him, "Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness.
40 You fools! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also?
41 So give for alms those things that are within; and see, everything will be clean for you.
42 "But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and herbs of all kinds, and neglect justice and the love of God; it is these you ought to have practiced, without neglecting the others.
43 Woe to you Pharisees! For you love to have the seat of honor in the synagogues and to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces.
44 Woe to you! For you are like unmarked graves, and people walk over them without realizing it."
45 One of the lawyers answered him, "Teacher, when you say these things, you insult us too."
46 And he said, "Woe also to you lawyers! For you load people with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not lift a finger to ease them.
47 Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets whom your ancestors killed.
48 So you are witnesses and approve of the deeds of your ancestors; for they killed them, and you build their tombs.
49 Therefore also the Wisdom of God said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute,'
50 so that this generation may be charged with the blood of all the prophets shed since the foundation of the world,
51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it will be charged against this generation.
52 Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge; you did not enter yourselves, and you hindered those who were entering." (Luke Ch.11)

http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/Catholic

[cliss]

32. One reason they seem

out of touch with reality, is that they feel they have to hold on to their principles. They come to conclusions on certain things, and if there is widespread objection to these policies, they just look at it as 'the devil' or 'evil' trying to shake their beliefs.

That's why the church moves at about the speed of a melting glacier. They are simply out of touch with society, and they like it that way.

This is the reason why they never acted on the pedophile priests. They are very insulated from public opinion, and they are used to having a 'carte blanche' in their affairs.

When the trials started in Boston, it was very clear that Cardinal Law was unable to do anyting. He was immobilized by a faith that is frozen in time.

[sujan]

33. moron

there he goes playing the scientist again.

Kinda like the creationists, using bible as their biology book.