Galloway pours petrol on the flames

[DesEtoiles]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/08/05/wgall05.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/08/05/ixnewstop.html

In his most inflammatory outburst yet on the invasion of Iraq, George Galloway has sought to justify lethal attacks on British troops on the grounds that the rebels "are defending all the people of the world from American hegemony".

Mr Galloway described the insurgents as "ragged people, with their sandals, with their Kalashnikovs, with the lightest and most basic of weapons" but who were still managing to defeat the world's only superpower.

The Respect MP for Bethnal Green and Bow denounced those Iraqis who had joined the security forces as "collaborators" and said it was "normal" for them to be targets for suicide bombers - who have killed hundreds of them.

His remarks, contained in a series of interviews broadcast by three Arab television stations after a recent visit he made to Syria, were more provocative than the comments that led to his expulsion from the Labour Party in 2003.

[Maple]

1. Nothing that hasn't been

said on here as well.

He will, of course, be roundly denounced in the UK.

[Skink]

2. I'm changing my name fron Skink to George.....

:beer:

[rodeodance]

3. fascinating to hear actually being said:--the ragtags defeating the super-

power of the world (the US)!!

Jr ain't gonna like this.

[mcctatas]

4. I love Galloway...

I will hate to see the beating he takes on this. I would like to see the entire transcript, this makes it seem as if his justification is less of an explanation for the continued attacks on troops, and more like he is a secret member of Al Queda. These are sad times, this with us or against us bullshit is silencing so many, and painting the brave few with the guts to speak out as traitors!!!:wtf:

[daleo]

6. Agreed, you would have to hear his remarks in context

Certainly, The Telegraph has not proven to be objective when it comes to Galloway. I believe he won a defamation suit against them a few years ago.

[Trajan]

5. I strongly disagree ...

Killing innocents ....

Again, killing innocents ....

Again, killing innocents ....

Again, killing innocents ....

Again, killing innocents ....

Again, killing innocents ....

Again, killing innocents ....

Sorry .. two wrongs do NOT make a right: .... if it is wrong for George to kill innocents, then it is wrong for anyone else ...

If it is RIGHT for them to kill, then it is right for anyone else ...

Again, killing innocents ....

Again, killing innocents ....

It is WRONG to kill ....

The argument cannot be made that killing civilians during a strike against against Iraqi 'collaborators' is justifiable ...

IF one attempts to make that justification, then one might as well pass it around for everyone to use ....

Morality is universal and exclusively held by those who adhere to a consistent system of morals .... wishy washy justifications fall on thier face ....

Galloway is wrong ....

[bpilgrim]

8. gotta link?

to him celebrating anyone 'killing innocents'?

tia :hi:

peace

[Trajan]

20. The OT speaks for itself ....

It is well known, and readily acknowledged, that MANY of the attacks against 'collaborators' also killed bystanders ... and that those who executed those attacks knew full well that those bystanders were present ...

As a humanist, and a pacifist, I REJECT any such act as callous and unnecessary ... the acts, as executed, speak for themselves ...

Are you prepared to assert that NO innocents or FEW innocents have been killed in suicide attacks ? ... THAT would be absurd ....

Anyone who supports the methods of the insurgents, as they currently operate, must by inference support the consequences of those methods .... hence Galloway, by proclaiming his support for these acts and how they are carried out, should be held to task for approving of the killing of innocents ....

Im sorry, but that is how it must be ... One cannot kill with absolute impunity ... one cannot SUPPORT such acts of killing with absolute impunity ....

There is no free lunch ....

[bpilgrim]

28. i'll take that as you don't have any links for that quote

no worries, i would be very surprised to hear him say such a thing so i just wanted to be sure.

thanks :toast:

peace

[Psephos]

50. Trajan, few here care about Iraqis, so your arguments fall on deaf ears

As if any of them ever gave a shit about the Iraqis before 2000.

Your detractors are treating the Iraqis as proxies for antiBush sentiments. I would prefer to not involve the Iraqis as middlemen, and apply my own antiBush sentiments directly.

I'm happy to have a gadfly in the mix, and Galloway has said things that needed to be said. However, his Savile Row tailored suits, his first-name basis with the maitre d's of the best London restaurants, his predilection for driving only Mercedes, and his curious financing of his little villa in Portugal long ago took the fizz out my soda water. His shady business partner in Iraq, his inability to produce clean accounting for the Mariam Appeal trust, and his serial addiction to litigation would be cause for street rioting if his politics were on the other side of the spectrum. But he gets a pass, or at minimum ties apologists into pretzels 'splaining him, because he's antiwar and antiBush.

I am antiwar and antiBush, and I didn't even need villas, Mercedes, or mysterious missing ledgers to get there.

Trajan, I admire your principled stand here. It IS possible to be antiwar, antiBush, and not have Galloway on your Christmas card list, all at the same time.

These are my opinions, nothing more, nothing less. Peace.

[jmatthan]

11. Then EVERY American President...

in modern history starting from Nagasaki and Hiroshima, Vietnam, right down to Afghanistan and Iraq have been wrong!!

And every American who allowed it to happen is also wrong!!

Why single out Galloway for saying what every Anti-war activist is saying.

Do you expect all these innocent people to just roll over and be trampled and killed by the American forces as in Fallujah. And that includes the failed pro-war Democrat candidate in Ohio - Paul Hackett.

What arrogance.

Violence will be met with violence. As you sow, you shall reap!

Remember you even have a law in Florida that even if you suspect that someone is going to harm you, you can KILL THEM!!

Jacob Matthan
http://jmpolitics.blogspot.com
Oulu, Finland

[The Magistrate]

19. Our Good Trajan, Sir

Has not done that. He is a consistent fellow, and does his best to apply a single standard in such matters.....

[Trajan]

31. Then EVERY american President HAS been wrong ....

You just said it ....

ANY ONE who supports policies that destroy innocent human life is WRONG ! ...

What is so controversial about this stand ? ..

NO ONE is asking that nationals simply roll over and die, but to DIRECT THEIR FIRE ONLY on combatants ...

If ONE innocent stands in the way of a 'good kill', then do NOT FIRE ....

It is WRONG for ANYONE to kill, or it is RIGHT for anyone to kill ...

You cannot have it both ways ...

The ultimate arrogance would be justifying killing innocent human beings by killing more of them ....

[Maple]

33. War isn't moral, period. Full stop.

'Rules' or not.

And the ONLY excuse for it is self-defense.

If an aggressor nation, in this case the US, attacks an innocent country, minding it's own business, and posing no threat, it is absurd for the aggressor nation to then complain that the 'other side' isn't 'fighting fair'.

Or is somehow violating your view of morality.

Nothing in Life is black and white.

If China invaded the US, you'd be doing the same thing. Fighting back anyway you could. Killing collaborators. Tsking about innocent lives lost, but continuing to fight regardless.

It's war. Nothing pleasant or moral about it.

[jmatthan]

34. Did you even bother to listen to

the live testimony of eye witnesses at the War Tribunal on Iraq? I did.

Did you hear what your crack US troops (82 Airborne Division) were doing in Fallujah and are doing in different parts of Iraq?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/mek.htm

"Upon arrival at Camp Fallujah the Brigade immediately set up its command post, and the units began to replace Marine units around the city so they could prepare for the upcoming fight. On the 6th of November the units of the Black Jack Brigade set an outer cordon, sealing the city against civilian movement and setting the conditions for the following Marine operation, Operation Al Fajr (Dawn). Nothing was allowed in or out of this cordon. This prevented the enemy from escaping the Marine onslaught in the city or bringing in supplies and reinforcements."

Please condemn the correct people and not people like Galloway who have been fighting and negotiating for peace.

Condemn the war criminals first and then yoiu will be taken seriously in what you write.

Jacob Matthan
http://jmpolitics.blogspot.com
Oulu, Finland

[DesEtoiles]

38. Agree - condemn the war criminals first

[Maple]

17. People get killed in wars

So don't start them

[JDPriestly]

25. Trajan, you are right on this one.

Two wrongs do not make a right. Innocent Iraqis are dying both as a result of the American occupation and because of the insurgency. How can the insurgents kill their countrymen? How can non-Iraqis, Americans or otherwise, justify going into Iraq to help Iraqis and then kill Iraqis? It makes no sense.

[Maple]

27. It's a war

Don't presume to know what the 'other side' is thinking or doing.

None of this would have occurred if Bush had stayed home and minded his own business.

Stop expecting the 'enemy' to behave with higher moral standards than what you have.

[Raiden]

7. As much as I like George Galloway

those statements are very extreme. The argument can be made that they are freedom-fighters, but to basically say that American and British soldiers should die because they are fighting Bush's war is just a bit too abrasive.

[SimpleMan]

12. That's not what he said...

Only the beginning of the article is quoted in the post. This part is very misleading. Read the rest of the article, and you'll see that he's not saying that at all.

[DesEtoiles]

14. yes-fair use only allows a few paragraphs

[osaMABUSh]

9. George Galloway: ""Senator, in everything I said about Iraq,

I turned out to be right and you turned out to be wrong and 100,000 people paid with their lives; 1600 of them American soldiers sent to their deaths on a pack of lies; 15,000 of them wounded, many of them disabled forever on a pack of lies."

BTW in the latest Vogue magazine Madonna is in bed with her children covered by a bunch of newspapers. Well, the most prominent paper is of George Galloway during his famous tongue lashing of Sen. Coleman.

If you see the actual magazine you can read the headline: "I have never been an oil trader"

http://www.madonna-store.com/item/Images/madonnavoguemag05.htm

[Caleb]

10. This guy disgusts me

He honestly sounds like an al-Qaeda spokesman.

[Maple]

13. Well he's not

but the truth does hurt, hmmmm?

[Caleb]

18. He doesn't speak the truth

Innocent Iraqis aren't legit targets and don't deserve to die. Sorry. Not by American bombs and not by insurgents.

Galloway does in fact sound like an al-Qaeda spokesman. Compare his comments today with the released tape of al-Zawihiri. The same talking points about innocent Muslims in Iraq deserve to die, how the "Zionists" are evil, etc, etc...

[Maple]

22. Yes, he does

Collaborators always get killed in wars...and unfortunately so do innocent people.

Don't start wars if you don't like the results.

[Caleb]

26. The poor Iraqi father

Who joins the police force for money to feed his family doesn't deserve to die because you and Galloway think he's a collaborator.

Have some compassion.

[Maple]

29. Life's a bitch eh?

Did you think you were in the Garden of Eden?

The very first Iraqis to die under the bombing of 'shock and awe' didn't ask for it either...but they were killed nonetheless.

Compassion and a buck will buy you a coffee

[Caleb]

32. We can agree on that

Life is a bitch.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SimpleMan]

23. I think the link to the article was posted for a reason...

...maybe you should read it before you judge a man by what he never said.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Caleb]

21. Of course not...

Because I disagree with the lunatic Galloway, I MUST be a Republican!

Sheesh.

[Maple]

24. When did he become a lunatic?

The moment you disagreed with him?

[ElectroPrincess]

54. Didn't we already live this "dance" on another thread?

Oh boy, all we need is for Geek Tragedy to come and complement our tag-teams.

Galloway is one of those people who you can't be neutral on. You either admire his courage (no, you don't have to agree with every damn thing he says) OR you despise the hell out of him. Me and mine are with the former, you and Geek with the latter.

Time will tell, not flame-festivals. :-)

[SimpleMan]

16. Read the whole article and then judge.

...

[CrispyQ]

30. No, this is what an Al Qaeda spokesman sounds like:

"We haven't heard much from him. And I wouldn't necessarily say he's at the center of any command structure. And, again, I don't know where he is," Bush said during the 2002 news conference. "I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him. I know he is on the run."


But it sure is convenient to bring 'ole Binny boy out every now & then to scare the common folk back into behaving, huh, George?

[OKthatsIT]

46. beat it....Bush conived and lied us into this war.

AND 9/11 was an inside job.

[staticstopper]

36. If Iraqi and Al Queda teamed up

invaded American and killed most of our government, defeated our military and had house to house raids - dragging out the males and tortured them. You then find out that your sisters whole family had been blown up by an errant bomb, your niece and nephew, wandered around screaming gravely injured, looking for protection. (collateral damage)

Then a few days later you watched your neighbors lining up to help out. How would you feel?

And what if that "team" were the worlds only super power i.e. no one in the whole world was going to come bail your country out.

Again, how would you feel? I think I know how repuklicans would feel.
Me? I'd think I'd give in and join up...I'd have to feed my kids.

Just a hypothetical question.

Of course I wish Galloway would keep his trap shut and that Jane Fonda would stay away from the "Antiwar Movement"....oops, forgot....There is no such movement to speak of.

Name me one OUT THERE, IN FRONT, LEADING THE WAY- well known person calling for real specific action.

Welstone may have done the job. Kerry and Clinton are busy in D.C. writing notes and playing video games. Mike Moore is scaring big pharma. Al Franken is telling jokes and getting O'lily mad, going on OSU tours. Has Dean giving us a specific fighting plan?

The only people I have heard about are a secret grand jury that might have a chance to make a dent.

[rigel434]

37. Sad ..

They should call this board the "radical left underground." Hopefully, most Democrats in this country are not rooting for our soldiers to be killed like it seems some of you are.

I simply cannot believe you folks are supporting Galloway's statements- they are appaling. Zarquawi is a terrorist, not a freedom fighter. Was that suicide bomber who blew up the Marines giving candy to children a freedom fighter?

[Maple]

39. It's called the Democratic Underground

for a reason.

It's radical...not the 'regular' Democratic party.

Zarquawi is fighting for what he believes in.

He would never have existed if you hadn't attacked Iraq.

Don't blame him for US actions

[allemand]

52. Do you really want to defend al-Zarqawi's actions?

BTW, he existed and well before the Iraq war. In fact, he has a long history as a terrorist:

Profile: Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3483089.stm

[staticstopper]

40. Your talking about ???

too bad it's only Galloways kind of talk that gets your attention long enough to sign in here. sad.
When we tried to calmly and clearly ask to be heard....the big interest muffled us.

Now we are all guilty of not doing enough to stop this sick sick onslot of facism.

Our country has become so much less than it was before they selected this band of crooks to shake up the ME

[DesEtoiles]

42. it's against forum rules to denigrate other posters, or all other posters

Bring something constructive to the table or leave.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rigel434]

48. huh?

I have no idea why. Don't recall ever having a post deleted. But hey, if anyone doesn't join the chorus of praising Zarquawi and Co. he MUST be a troll, right?

Please forgive me- I see the error of my ways. Go bin Laden! Go Zarquawi!

Btw, it's not necessary to make 4 separate posts- it's possible to include 4 sentences in a single post.

[DesEtoiles]

41. the chaos in this thread is a mere MICROCOSM of what * unleashed in Iraq

[rigel434]

45. Iraq

We are currently being led by an idiot who thinks God talks to him, but that doesn't make the terrorists in Iraq any less despicable.

I can see the argument that US soldiers are valid targets, but the terrorists in Iraq are deliberately attacking Shiites more often than soldiers.

[Maple]

49. If China invaded the US

and you saw some Chinese soldier on the street giving out candy to American kids ...to convince them he wasn't a bad guy after all...and someone blew him away...would you give a shit?

Hell, you'd pull the trigger yourself.

So stop moralizing about Iraqis and what they 'should' do.

YOU invaded THEM. Live with it.

[staticstopper]

47. I'm sorry I had to even read this

post, but sadly it's what it's gonna take, i'm afraid.

Talk about Iraq on the brink of civil war...buckel-up, it's going to get very, very, very bumpy here in the once grand U.S.A.

And I'm not a strong enough person to fight such evil in this world.
I'm an embittered week coward...

For some reason I have that Soundgarden song in my head - "Go ahead and hate - if it makes you feel strong"

Liberals have chosen to stay away from the hate/strength game...we have started to rant and rave...whats the next step? I hope righteous indignation and being willing to defend the helpless.

"Just don't piss on my cloud"

[Skypilot 18]

51. Gallaway is not afraid of the truth

The more truth you tell, the more they will attack you in vain attempts to smear you or anyone that gets in their way. You always know when you've struck a nerve to these right dingo-brain assholes by who they smear. It's always the folks that blow their cover. Just ask Joe Wilson and his courageous wife.


Oh what a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive.

[Azathoth]

53. Come on folks, is this REALLY the guy you want as your spokesman?

I've said it before -- and God knows I've gotten flamed for it -- but I'll say it again: people like Galloway hurt the anti-war movement. Opposing the war doesn't mean you have to support the insurgents and the terrorists. Galloway is basically calling Zarqawi a hero, and he's rationalizing it by calling the innocent Iraqi men, women, and children who have been killed by insurgent attacks "collaborators". You can't get more despicable than that.

[ElectroPrincess]

55. You forget, our WAR is not with the people of Iraq ...

These are classic guerrilla tactics (unconventional): kill even your fellow natives that collaborate with the occupiers ... kill the leaders who wish to be their boys and tin pot dictators ... kill the police recruits who are trained by the occupiers.

When we drop 500 lbs bombs and kill a shit-load of civilians it's NOT morally reprehensible? Only because of the oops factor due to our huge kick ass technology.

In any war, both sides do morally reprehensible things. That's why we call it war. Like Vietnam, we're labeling the resistance as "less than human."

Not true, we (USA and Coalition Troops) don't get the moral high ground just because OUR KILLING MACHINES and WEAPONS are more accurate.

[Azathoth]

56. I wasn't claiming the moral high ground for the US

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who kills civilians loses the moral high ground. That's the difference between me and Galloway: I don't agree with either side, and I don't think either side has the Iraqi peoples' welfare in mind, whereas Galloway is actively supporting and defending the terrorist tactics of the insurgents. By praising Zarqawi and his associates, he's defending both their ideology and their tactics of murdering innocent civilians, which I find despicable.

[Raiden]

57. Yes, it is morally reprehensible when we drop 500 lbs. of bombs,

but two wrong don't make a right. Anytime innocent civilians die, I think it's wrong. What Galloway advocates is just a little too abrasive for my tastes.

[Moderator]

58. Duplicate

This is a duplicate of a locked thread posted early yesterday.
This news is not latest breaking despite the time stamp on the article.
Feel free to post in another forum.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1675620