Argument over Iraq war prompts fatal shooting

[sabra]

<<SNIP>>
http://www.wkyt.com/global/story.asp?s=3687207&ClientType=Printable

Argument over Iraq war prompts fatal shooting

PRESTONSBURG, Ky. -- A disagreement over the war in Iraq between two friends ended with the fatal shooting of one of the men.

Prosecutors and Kentucky State Police determined that Douglas Moore, 65, of Martin, acted in self-defense. Police did not arrest Moore after the shooting at the Bull Creek Trade Center near Prestonsburg Thursday morning.

The victim, Harold W. Smith, 56, of Manchester, and Moore were friends who each had booths at the center. Smith was shot once in the chest and died at the scene.

They began arguing over the war, said Floyd County Coroner Roger Nelson. "I think Doug was supporting it, and this other guy was against it," he said.

<</SNIP>>

[Stand and Fight]

1. So the guy supporting the war was not arrested!

Bull-fucking-shit!
Details were lacking in the story, but something in this does NOT sit right with me.

[Beaver Tail]

2. Dosn't sit right with me either

Lets see what an invesitgation somes up with.

[sabra]

3. "acted in self-defense"

so they say...

[gratuitous]

24. Oh yeah, didn't you know?

All us anti-war peaceniks are armed to the teeth, and think that violence is the easiest, first answer to any dispute.

[MidwestTransplant]

27. "He was speaking against the President and I took that as a

threat...I thought he may be a terrarist"

[annabanana]

54. In Florida, that would now be considered a legitimate

defense!..... Thanks Jeb!

[Just Me]

4. Hits me as hugely suspect, as well.

Pro-war guy kills anti-war guy in self-defense? Doesn't sound rational, does it?

[MadisonProgressive]

18. You can read that as

Ring-wing-nut-job kills a normal thinking man..

[me b zola]

40. That is what he was "defending" himself from.....rational thought

Freepers & other pro-war bush-bots feel threatened by rational thought. It is the mirror that when forced to look into reflects the lies and horror that they support & propagate, the truth must be overwhelming.

[IndianaGreen]

68. Prowar goons are prone to violence

and antiwar people are by nature non-violent. A deadly combination!

Many of these prowar idiots think that Bush has a special anointing from the Almighty. They always take it badly when someone challenges their misguided quasi-religious views.

[daleo]

5. Common sense tells you

A war supporter is more likely to draw a gun and threaten someone than is a person who objects to war. Let's hope that this is investigated properly.

[leftchick]

10. yes indeed

I didn't need to read it to know who did the shooting. Damn! I hope there is justce. :(

[54anickel]

6. Sheesh, does everyone run around the Bull Creek Trade Center

with a gun in their pocket? Isn't this a simple flea-market?

[Journeyman]

7. Will Harold Smith be counted among the war dead now?. . .

I think he deserves a spot, right next to Karen Unruh-Wahrer, the Arizona mother who died of a broken heart when told her son had been killed in Iraq.

The war touches us in so many ways, most of which we haven't yet realized.

[LisaM]

8. Cop calls them "Doug" and "this other guy" - hmmmm

that sounds fishy.

[sabra]

9. good point :-(

[rinsd]

That was the coroner (nt)

[acmejack]

17. The Coroner said it!

see the article

[Stand and Fight]

21. Good point...

Interesting that they are on a first name basis and they choose NOT to arrest him. This all stinks to high-hell!

[LisaM]

23. Coroner, you're right

even worse. Sorry, I just saw "Floyd County...." and mentally filled in the rest. Either way, it's fishy.

[montanacowboy]

11. In the immortal words of Novakula

"BULLSHIT"

[redqueen]

12. Was that derringer registered to Smith?

This story stinks to high heaven.

[Barrett808]

14. A "throw-down" Derringer?

One has to wonder.

[ovidsen]

13. They both had guns

And police say Smith flashed his derringer before Moore fired his revolver. Of course, the anti-war Smith isn't in any position to defend himself anymore.

It appears the pistol packing people in Floyd County, Kentucky are in need of some good firearms safety and anger management courses.

[proud patriot]

15. Was the Derringer Registered to Smith ?

Calling the shooter by his first name , and the victim
"the other guy" doesn't sit well with me .

[0007]

29. ....this is kind of stinky isn't it?

[slackmaster]

37. There is no gun registration in Kentucky

Only a few states like California have handgun registration.

[proud patriot]

44. Is there a way to find out who purchased it ?

A serial number or something .

[slackmaster]

45. Sometimes yes, as long as its initial sale date was in 1968 or later

From the serial number on the frame of the pistol, the manufacturer can tell what dealer it was shipped to for retail sale. The dealer, as long as the transaction was done in accordance with the Gun Control Act, will have in his or her files a Form 4473 which will identify the person who bought it.

If that person is still alive and is not the suspect, police can go to that person and ask about what he or she did with the gun (e.g. sold or gave it to someone else). In that way the chain of custody can be traced unless someone sold it to an anonymous stranger, or died in the interim and therefore cannot be interviewed. (Sales to anonymous strangers BTW are really what the so-called "gun show loophole" is all about. It has nothing to do with gun shows per se.)

If the initial sale of the gun pre-dates the Gun Control Act, it's pretty much untraceable.

[NWHarkness]

16. Imagine if it had gone the other way

If the anti-war "guy" had been the one to pull the trigger, he'd never see the outside of a jail cell again.

[mbperrin]

19. Watch out for those violent anti-war people!

Good thing the peaceful pro-war guy was packing, eh? ONLY for self-defense, of COURSE!

:eyes:

[MadisonProgressive]

20. The coroner said...

he found "a little derringer lying adjacent to Smith's hand where he fell."

Did they check the derringer for finger prints before they decided NOT to arrest Dougy?

[rinsd]

28. That would be what the police said....

...the coroner used the guy's first name.

[MadisonProgressive]

34. Not the way I read it:

They began arguing over the war, said Floyd County Coroner Roger Nelson.

<snip>

Nelson said he found "a little derringer lying adjacent to Smith's hand where he fell."

[rinsd]

41. Doh! (nt)

[staticstopper]

22. My family is from Floyd County

It is deep in the hills of Appalachia. A beautiful place but wracked by poverty.

They were once all unionize coal miners, but most of the mines are gone now.

How it seemed to me, from going down there often as a kid, that there's a lot of underlying tensions and because it is so close knit and rural, people take things into their own hands. So the war thing might just be a surface issue.

My great uncle was put in jail over voting problems during the 50's in that same town. I think it was because he would not let some official take home the ballot box - he was in for almost a year.

[Robb]

60. "... the war thing might just be a surface issue"; Probably so ...

... but you better believe the war thing is why it's in the news.

And you better believe it's no accident the wire picked it up. And the message is quite clear:

People will shoot you for being against the war, so you should shut up. :grr:

[powwowdancer]

69. From 1 Kentuckian 2 Another...

These flea market slash rummage sale things are besotted with firearms. Ever been to "court days" in Mt. Sterling? Guns, knives & weapons of ass destruction abound!! Also, Kentucky Police have been notoriously complicit in a number of "wrongdoings" over the years. The KSP only marginally less so. Floyd Co., like Letcher, Perry, Knott and "Bloody Breathitt" are notorious hotbeds of personal family "wars." (Only folks from outta state call 'em feuds.) So, yeah, while certain folks may be pre-disposed to rattlin' other folks cages just on account of who "their people" are, the issue that this shooting was over was the war. Just because two men were arguably pre-disposed to a certain degree of bad-natured assholery doesn't mean that the shooting was about something else. Politricks in Eastern KY. are notoriously bent. Knott county's Judge exec. has been presiding from his jail cell, last I heard... and no one seemed to have a problem with that. Granted, the poverty and hopelessness of a people trapped in a deteriorating situation have all contributed to exacerbating these problems, but the fact remains that "old regular baptists," "primitive baptists," and yes, even snake handlers, are rabid conservatives and most of 'em are obstreperous to a fault, and the all own guns. I'm here to tell anyone who wants to listen that voicing an opinion out of step with these swine takes their lives into their own hands. The benighted backwaters of eastern Kentucky are host to a very vindictive, clannish breed of conservative majority that'd shoot you at the drop of a hat; hell, they drop the hat themselves most of the time. That's what this racket sounds like to me. Aaaargh. Just imagine all the stereotypes about KY. Out were KY rubs buttocks with "by god" West Virginia, they're worse. Just drive through, sometime, and anyone can see... you'd just better drive real freakin' fast. I've got some kin from eastern KY, and yeah, at one time, it's beauty couldn't easily be rivalled. This was before the mines made the creeks run irridescant yellow, the tops of hte beautiful mountains were shaved down, and slag heaps became the foothills of appalachia. Thanks to strip mining and trailer park conservatism, most folks who can, get out at warp speed. 'Tis sad but true. Any non-Kentuckian who wants a glimpse (in complete safety), should read Harry Caudills "Night Comes To The Cumberlands." A lot of folks from Eastern KY hate that book, precisely because it points out how such a sorry state of affairs could come to pass. Most of KY enjoys the same flavor of ass-backwardness, don't get me wrong... it's just been allowed to fester un-treated out east a bit longer.

:dem:
powwowdancer out

Visit Me At:
http://ragonthebush.blogspot.com
The images I've created and posted there are free for the taking, as long as you use 'em to RAG ON THE BUSH!!

[PurityOfEssence]

25. Another right-wing murderer

Funny how moderates and lefties don't seem to kill.

[UrbScotty]

26. Proof that war hawks are not pro-life.

:mad:

[LaurenG]

30. As usual a crazy republican with a gun kills the democrat

(i'm surmising) Look who lost...again. A kid can go to jail for throwing a rock but it's self defense in Kentucky to kill an antiwar "friend".

[Dr Fate]

31. "Culture of Life" n/t

n/t

[anarchy1999]

32. Our world just flipped. Damn.

I don't want to watch anymore.

[AuntiBush]

33. And the "First Shot is Fired!"

Like the Civil War... hope I'm wrong but this is what's been worrying me, seeings our despicable leader has pushed for the greatest division between Americans since pre 1850! Worse actually. The divisions were less then even now if you think about it.

[KansDem]

35. I'm surprised something like this hasn't happened sooner...

...our despicable leader has pushed for the greatest division between Americans since pre 1850!

...but fear it will now happen more often. :(

[AuntiBush]

47. I hear ya KansDem.

What a mess! And in less then 5 1/2 years.

Now what.

[catzies]

61. You read my mind. Will our cold civil war get hot? Is this how it starts?

:cry: :scared:

[frankieT]

66. I'm not so much into paranormal stuff

but shortly after 9-11 i saw in a dream your country and others torn by bloody civil wars. I assumed it was my apocalyptic paranoia at work and returned to my rational realpolitik points of view. I forgot the fact that we can still go to a great catastrophe, slowly but surely. I hope i'm wrong.

[The Stranger]

36. Flood the D.A.'s office with complaints.

Notify the local press that the D.A. is not doing its job.

Get the "victim's rights" people involved.

[aasleka]

38. I will never return

What can you say, it's Kentucky.

I escaped in 2001 to North Carolina. Previously I had lived in NYC.

Funny how there are more kids missing in a less populated state like Kentucky than a city like NYC.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

39. So, you think you're better off living in Kentucky?....

As far as your comment about more missing kids in Kentucky than there are in New York City, you'll have to provide a link documenting your claim.

[lonestarnot]

42. Oh now this just makes me want to move to Kentucky...NOT

..blue grass and the Derby and nutballs, with an apparent lopsided law enforcement agency...pro war bloodthirsty bunch egh?

[Ouabache]

71. Louisville is not bad though

Pretty democratic there, and the Courier-Journal still seems like a Democratic newspaper.

[Mr_Spock]

43. Hehe - the civil war begins innocently enough...

lol - there will be more...

[loudsue]

49. Interesting perspective....something to think about.

It really HAS started, hasn't it...

Look to the seed that is planted, to see what will grow to harvest.

:kick::kick::kick:

[Historic NY]

46. Sounds like the Hatfields & McCoys..........

A little further in the story;

Police said the argument escalated into a fight, and Smith drew a small pistol from his pocket, threatening to kill Moore. Witnesses said Moore pulled a .38-caliber pistol from his pocket and shot Smith once in the chest.

Nelson said he found "a little derringer lying adjacent to Smith's hand where he fell."


Apparently its going to a grand jury anyway.

[bejammin075]

48. Could it be propaganda? Intimidate anti-war folks?

Folks who get upity about the war just end up dead?? Wink wink.

[pinniped]

50. Did the killer have a permit to carry the gun?

?

[GrpCaptMandrake]

51. Forget It, Cletus,

. . . it's Appalachiatown.

And as an Applachian, I can tell you, Yes, most of us are armed. Even the pacifists are armed. Appalachian babies suck on little gun-shaped pacifiers.

Here in Appalachia, we still sell toy guns and candy cigarettes to children. Really.

If the story is to be taken as written, it's only fair to suggest that our man may have been slow on the draw.

May I direct anyone interested in the culture to "The Trail of the Lonesome Pine," by John Fox, Jr. Nothing's changed that much.

[ridgerunner]

52. Slaying in dispute over war might be a first

Posted on Sat, Aug. 06, 2005

By Lee Mueller
EASTERN KENTUCKY BUREAU

PRESTONSBURG - The Iraq war has been a divisive issue in America for more than two years now, but a shooting at an Eastern Kentucky flea market this week might have marked the first time a dispute over the war has resulted in a death.

A quarrel between two firearms vendors at a Floyd County flea market on Thursday allegedly led both men -- described as "good friends" -- to draw guns. Douglas Moore, 65, of Martin, who supports the war, shot and killed Harold Wayne Smith, 56, of Manchester, who opposed it, investigators said.

>snip

One witness, Sam Hamman of Prestonsburg, told The Floyd County Times that the two men always carried guns and bickered frequently about the quality of guns, knives and the war.

"Harold was talking about the 14 people that were killed in Iraq the other day and Doug said that just as many people were killed on the highways here," Hamman told the paper.

more:http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/12317968.htm

-------------------------------------

You know, sometimes I worry about some of y'all. This shooting is not a conspiracy. Of course the folks in Floyd County know Mr. Moore, that's where he lives. Mr. Smith is from Clay County, which is southwest of Prestonsburg.

Nobody deserves to die because of a political argument, but there seems to be a lot of bad blood between these two going back years and if the witnesses are correct, Smith brought his death upon himself by pulling a gun on Moore and saying "I'm going to blow your ... brains out."

Would any of you let someone murder you if you could stop it?

[SammyWinstonJack]

62. No

"Would any of you let someone murder you if you could stop it?" I wouldn't pull a gun on someone I knew had one also, unless I thought I were the faster draw. :silly: The whole incident sounds stupid to me. :dunce:

[WhiteTara]

53. we could all be "this other guy"

holy f*cking sh*t! This is horrible. The wingnuts are getting even crazier.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ridgerunner]

56. Nice stereotype

:freak:

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ridgerunner]

65. Speaking from experience are ya?

:boring:

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ridgerunner]

57. And speaking of racism

you need to check yourself

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

58. Guess what? I don't give a rat's ass what you think...

I'm sorry it struck a nerve, but FACTS ARE FACTS. Kentucky has ALWAYS been a bastion of conservative and backwoods thinking.

And, speaking of racism guess what state in conjunction with Tennessee has the highest proportion of KKK and white supremacy organization members?

JB

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FreeStateDemocrat]

63. Ages 56 and 65 and not a semblance of common sense or restraint.

[raysr]

70. Freepers'll

love this, the first shot of the revolution.