NCAA bans Indian mascots, nicknames from postseason

[Eugene]

http://www.suntimes.com/output/sports/ncaa05.html

NCAA bans Indian mascots, nicknames from postseason

August 5, 2005

BY MICHAEL MAROT ASSOCIATED PRESS

INDIANAPOLIS-- The NCAA banned the use of American Indian mascots by
sports teams during its postseason tournaments, but will not prohibit
them otherwise.

The NCAA's executive committee decided this week the organization did
not have the authority to bar Indian mascots by individual schools,
committee chairman Walter Harrison said Friday.

Nicknames or mascots deemed "hostile or abusive" would not be allowed on
team uniforms or other clothing beginning with any NCAA tournament after
Feb. 1, said Harrison, the University of Hartford's president.

"What each institution decides to do is really its own business" outside
NCAA championship events, Harrison said.

more...

[Baclava]

1. So as not to offend any high paying sponsors is more like it...

Who says what is offensive?

Battling Beavers - Blackburn College
Chanticleers - Does anyone even know what that is? Coastal Carolina U
Gamecocks - South Carolina
Irish - Notre Dame
Jimmies? LOL - Jamestown College
Little Johns - Penn St. Abington
Lumberjills? - Northland College
Vixens? - Sweet Briar College

[Ian David]

4. 1 entry found for Chanticleer.

chan·ti·cleer
A rooster.

Middle English chauntecler, from Old French chantecler, the name of the rooster in the tale of Reynard the Fox : chanter, to sing; see chant + cler, clear; see clear.

[Baclava]

5. Thank you for clearing that up!

Scottsdale Community College: Fighting Artichokes

...that's my favorite...
:9

[Ian David]

6. Fighting Artichokes? You weren't kidding...

http://www.sc.maricopa.edu/athletics/men/football/coaches.html

[Throckmorton]

85. Connecticut College

The Friendly Camels, often just shortened to Camels.

[NinetySix]

36. South Carolina's Gamecocks are actually named for

General Thomas Sumter, a Revolutionary War militia commander who, despite suffering constant shortages of food, powder, adequate arms, uniforms, and recruits, always fought with extreme tenacity in battle, thus earning the name on the battlefield.

It should also be noted that it is not only the University of South Carolina, but also Jacksonville State University that uses the Gamecocks as their mascot.

In any case, as they say in Columbia, GO COCKS!

[iamjoy]

44. You Can't Lick Our Cocks?

isn't that an unofficial University of South Carolina sports motto?

[NinetySix]

63. Once they played the other USC, the Trojans.

There was a bumper sticker that said, "No Trojan can hold our Cocks!"

[SoCalDem]

62. Banana slug is a mascot for some team ...yuk

:)

[Journeyman]

2. So if you've got a crappy team, name it what you want. . .

but if you've got talent, be prepared to pay bigtime for two sets of identities.

How absurd. A classic example of mushy thinking and rubberized ethics. Hail academia! Do what you can to discredit those sheepskins.

[Miss Chybil]

13. Hullooooo.... I would think the fallout from this will be the schools will

rename their teams upfront, as opposed to having to pick a different name in post-season. It's a backhanded way of "encouraging" the schools to do something about their team names without "making" them do it.

[mpendragon]

3. damn, even the 'noles

I always had the idea that the tribe liked the team. The mascot and portrayal was respectful if a little inaccurate. It's not like the Redskins or the Indian's Chief Wahoo.

[Larkspur]

9. The Seminole Chief said that the tribe approved of Florida State's

use of the Seminole as a mascot. I think the tribe even made the mascot's clothes.

[Sean Reynolds]

15. Same here with the Utes.

The Utah Utes have the endorsement of the Ute Tribe.

FUCK THE NCAA!

[Al-CIAda]

24. Seminole Tribe has been led by 'Chief Billy'. Just look up the corruption.

In fact, he is 'in' with Jack Abramoff/DeLay/Reed scam. My only point is that the Seminole Tribe has been bought off and is being led by a scam artist. You may ask still WTF does this have to do with anything. Well, the Seminole (FSU) mascot, a 'plains indian' in NO WAY resembles a true Seminole. They did not ride horses. They did not use 'war paint'. They were skilled canoe building and was their dominant mode of transportation.


Having said that, I no problem at all in principle and that in many cases mascots are meant to honor with their use.

[Psephos]

27. Central Michigan Univ. licenses the Chippewa name from the tribe

Kinda says it all.

Fairly or not, this kind of PC shit gets hung on us. It brings us nothing but costs us plenty. All over made-up offenses. More than four out of five actual Native Americans have no problem with it. Try to find four-out-of-five support for *anything* - you'll have a tough time.

Peace.

[Eloriel]

69. You gotta link for that?

More than four out of five actual Native Americans have no problem with it.

Because I don't believe it.

Even so, this isn't the kind of thing where a majority opinion erases the offensiveness. There were slaves who didn't want to be free and blacks in the 60s who didn't want those various boats rocked. They were mostly afraid, but they were also wrong.

Native Americans are probably THE most severely oppressed and discriminated against people in this country. (Hell, we only committed genocide against them, that's all.) Even where this practice is done with a modicum of "respect" and dignity, it's STILL objectifying, STILL trivializing of a proudand worthy people, STILL wrong and STILL a practice that helps anchor and extend their oppression.

[Baclava]

10. In the "for what it's worth" dept...

"According to the Sports Illustrated survey, 87 percent of American Indians who lived off Indian reservations did not object to Native American mascots or nicknames. Of the Indians who lived on reservations, 67 percent were not bothered by the nicknames."

Seminoles is a tribe name.
And, their mascot is supposed to be a proud seminole warrior.

That said - all FL teams suck.

GOoooooooooo Buckeyes!

[teknomanzer]

39. Way wrong dude!

Canes, Noles, and Gators! Florida football rules! Yer buckeyes can stuff it!

[Baclava]

41. Shocking - I know...how soon they forget...

[iamjoy]

47. How Interesting

Because, starting in 1999, the first year the different conferences reached an agreement where there would be a single championship game, Ohio State has won once (2002).

A Florida team has won twice - Florida State in 1999 and Miami Hurricanes in 2001.

[The Straight Story]

81. Yeah but they still have problems voting.... ;) (nt)

[riverwalker]

40. survey sez

http://web.archive.org/web/20040301122612/http://www.indiancountry.com/?43

"In a survey by Indian Country Today, 81 percent of respondents indicated use of American Indian names, symbols and mascots are predominantly offensive and deeply disparaging to Native Americans.

"Indian mascots, by today’s standards, would be offensive to any other race if portrayed in a similar manner," wrote Fred Blue Fox, Sicangu Lakota. "Indian peoples are no different in regarding the depiction of eagle feathers, face paints and war objects such as tomahawks. These are all sacred to the people and therefore have no place in any sort of public display, let alone mascots."

Only 10 percent of respondents indicated use of American Indian mascots is a respectful gesture and predominantly honors Natives."

[Eloriel]

70. That's interesting

They polled those who lived off the reservations, and were more likely to be away from their own heritage and especially traditional and spiritual ways. Wonder what their counterparts ON the reservations would have said?

Edited: Obviously, post #40 just above this one contains the answer. What a surprise, huh?

[El Supremo]

7. Fine with me

Don't forget the U of Northern Colorado intramural team:

[One_Life_To_Give]

16. Thought they changed their name?

I wanted to order a T-Shirt with the team logo? But heard they changed the name shortly after it made the news.

[Oreo]

8. What about the Fighting Sioux?

I haven't seen them mentioned anywhere but would love it if they had to change their name during the NCAA Hockey playoffs this year.

The nazi-lover (and he really was!) Ralph Engelstad gave a bunch of money to build an arena but had a couple conditions. First, the arena be named after him and second that they keep the name Fighting Sioux.

http://archive.salon.com/news/sports/bounds/2001/03/08/north_dakota/print.html

Crazy interesting story for those of you that haven't heard it


Engelstad wrote a letter to Kupchella saying that he would withdraw funding from the project if the Fighting Sioux name was changed. The building was about half built. (Rather than donating the cash up front, Engelstad was paying for the construction as it went along, then planning to donate the arena to the university.) He said he would let the elements have their way with the unfinished building, and consider the $35 million already spent a business loss.


and

Ralph Engelstad is a Las Vegas casino owner and a major donor to the University of North Dakota, where he was a goalie in the late '40s. He's also a guy who's been fined $1.5 million by the Nevada Gaming Control Board for damaging the reputation of the state by holding, in two separate years, private Hitler's Birthday parties at his casino, complete with a swastika cake, German food and marching music, bartenders wearing T-shirts with the words "Adolph Hitler European Tour 1939-45," and a life-size portrait of Hitler inscribed "To Ralphie from Adolph, 1939." He says he despises Hitler, and that the parties were merely "spoofs" meant to celebrate new purchases for his collection of Nazi memorabilia.

[CatholicEdHead]

68. Yes, Mr. Engelstad really screwed up the North Dakota situation

All the details are here:

http://www.und.edu/org/bridges/main.html

In a nutshell, Engelstad first announced to "donate" a new hockey arena to the school for $50Mil and another $50Mil for University of North Dakota education. The Nickname/logo was not a factor in the initial annoucement. Well, then President Charles Kupchella convened a Nickname commission to study the issue. They reccommended to move on with a different Nickname/logo. That is when Mr. Engelstad as shown above threatened to pull funding and let the rest freeze into the ground and fall apart.

Then the North Dakota State Board of Higher Education stepped in just before Kupchella was to announce his decision (it was probably to move on with the nickname, but we will never know for sure). The NDSBHE did a power grab to local campus affairs on this and pushed everything through for Englestad.

So, in the end the area was finally built with a new Indian Head logo (plastered in about every place you can imagine in the arena (aka The Ralph)) to the tune of about $111 Mil and not one cent going to campus education. The arena's profits were supposed to go back to the Unviersity. Instead they build a new basketball/volleyball arena next door (aka The Betty) with those funds.

Both The Ralph and The Betty are both ran by Ralph Engelstad Arena Inc. They are leased to the university for $1/year with a 30 year land lease (ends 2030 or so).

So, in the end, they have a new nickname/logo which is pretty much soley controlled by a private corporation holding the buildings as blackmail for the public university sports teams and they can get their big chunks of the pie until at elast 2030 (and you can expect an hard push by them in 2030 to get this sweet deal renewed). As of today, the University has given its public teams to a private corporation and has not seen one red cent in return for education reinvestment.

[underpants]

11. PC run amock!!! PC run amock!!! PC run amock!!!

In a slow news month RW radio will be on this for a while

The NCAA is not a liberal organization and they answer (literally) to no one.

[krkaufman]

28. Yes, time for a reboot. n/t

[jeffrey_X]

50. Is this where we tell minorities....

whether they should be offended or not?

I don't have a problem with this as I'm not Native American.

The fact the term Indian is still used is a disgrace

[Gabi Hayes]

53. thanks for the sanity.....I thought I'd dropped into a tesseract, or

maybe freepublic

this is astounding stuff

not ONE word about the numerous groups of people, indigenous or not, who find the use of their names offensive

I have an idea, let's restore the nickname of Pekin High, in Illinois, while we're at it.

how bout it?

[Eloriel]

71. Why yes, some people here at DU know what's best for these folks

you know. That their take closely resembles their OWN self-interests isn't a factor, of course.

I'm about 1/16 Native American -- enough to not be able to sell real property I owned without government permission (maybe those laws are now extinct, but if so it hasn't been all that many years). I don't think of or represent myself as Native American, but I DO have a problem with Native Americans being used as sports mascots. Absolutely. And that the inherent disrespect is invisible to some -- esp. who come to a progressive discussion board -- is sad, but once again proves that racism is alive and well, right here in DU land.

[bdot]

12. This is so stupid.

[Endangered Specie]

14. *starts doing the Braves chant*

This PC shit is getting very old very fast.

[Eloriel]

72. Just so you know

That really sounds like a racist response. Is that how you want to be known here -- as hostile and antagonistic to pro-equality causes?

[Spinzonner]

17. OK, time for PETA to protest

them exploiting animals by using their names as Mascots

[krkaufman]

18. Illinois finally gets to the championship game*...

... and they immediately find a way to keep 'em down the next year. (NCAA put the program on probation after the last time they'd made it to the Final Four.)

So, will Illinois have to change the name of the state, since it's named after a tribe?!? And what about Delaware? Any others?


* "he just plowed over him." ahem.

[Sgent]

19. How about

Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee -- all Native American names in origin. They also make-up a third of the SEC.

[depakid]

21. LOL- that's exactly what I was thinking!

This is the kind of bullshit that happenens when organizations have unaccountable power. I hope some school decides to get in their face and challenge the rule right on the court- just out of principle.

Wouldn't that be a smack in the face to the NCAA.

[Baclava]

23. You called it...

And, it didn't take long either...


Florida State to Challenge Ban on Mascots
By MICHAEL MAROT, AP Sports Writer
20 minutes ago

-----------------------------------------------------
Florida State President T.K. Wetherell threatened to take legal action after the ruling.

"That the NCAA would now label our close bond with the Seminole people as culturally 'hostile and abusive' is both outrageous and insulting," Wetherell said in a written statement.

"I intend to pursue all legal avenues to ensure that this unacceptable decision is overturned, and that this university will forever be associated with the 'unconquered' spirit of the Seminole Tribe of Florida."

[Al-CIAda]

25. T.K. Wetherell is a former player and general dolt. He will lie cheat and

steal and has been caught on several occasions. He was recently installed for this purpose. He is tthe go-to guy for all player and coach cover-ups.

[benny05]

67. Illinois

I don't think anyone who works at, attends, or attended UIUC has a problem with the name, the Fightin' Illini. The offensive part is that the mascot does a dance that has zero to do with the heritage, and even if the dance at half-time were done correctly, it's still offensive because what dances Illini tribes did do not correlate to football games or their festivities. If the "chief" supporters would have just suspended the dance instead of digging in their heels to retain "Chief Illiniwek" no matter what, the issue would have been less contentious.

So, the NCAA has decided to put an end to it since most legislators are uncomfortable with it. It will be an interesting states' issue if it makes it to the circuit courts.

[Eloriel]

73. Are there any actual Illini left alive, or did we succeed in killing them

all?

Ain't that a hoot: We kill them all (or most of them -- there's certainly no Illini reservation, I can tell you), and then take their name for a college FOOTBALL and BASKETBALL teams. Yeah, that's respectful.

:sarcasm:

[benny05]

78. Your point is well taken

But as someone pointed out, does that mean the state needs to change its name? Illini is plural for Illinois.

[MN ChimpH8R]

20. Now here's a college mascot....

Presenting the Evergreen (Washington) State College Geoduck



The geoduck is mollusc native to the Pacific Northwest. The geoduck (pronounced "GOO-ee-duck") is the largest burrowing clam in the world, weighing in at anywhere from one to three pounds at maturity. The appearance of geoduck's large, protruding siphon has led to the belief that the geoduck has the properties of an aphrodisiac. The geoduck has a life expectancy of up to 150 years with the oldest recorded at 163 years.

[thebigidea]

22. good lord, its like some William Burroughs nightmare

[BoneDaddy]

51. LOL

At first glance I thought John Holmes was still alive

[Eloriel]

74. Doesn't that drive home the point?

OTHER college mascots are ANIMALS. Using Native American names and symbols puts them on a par with ANIMALS. It's not elevating or respectful -- how could it be when their competition is ANIMALS?

[dr.zoidberg]

26. Isn't Fighting Irish hostile and abusive?

Shouldn't it be banned too? After all, it portarys the Irish as being drunks and fighting all the time. No, I'm not serious. This is yet again another stupid decision by the NCAA.

[RatRacer]

29. I agree. Also...

There's the Maryville College Fightin' Scots. But you know, Scottish folks are white. Who cares if they are a mascot or not?

Then there are schools like Providence (the Friars) making a mockery of people's deeply held religion.

Selective outrage.

[dr.zoidberg]

30. To be fair

There needs to be a school that accepts the nickname of "The Fighting Rabbis". That would be a fucking awesome name!

[classysassy]

31. Mascots

its about the bottom line---$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

[Al-CIAda]

32. "The Fighting Whities" -

'Fighting Whities' buried in hail of support and criticism
Fighting Whities



DENVER (AP) - The idea started among some University of Northern Colorado students as a satirical commentary on a local high school's American Indian mascot.

The students recently named their intramural basketball team, made up of American Indians, Hispanics and whites, "The Fighting Whities." They printed up jerseys saying, "Every thang's going to be all white," with a caricature of a middle-aged white man.

"The Fighting Whities," however, have taken on a life of their own.

More than 1,600 e-mails have flooded into the university in Greeley, north of Denver. Some say it's about time that a white person is made a mascot for a sport team. Others complain the idea as perpetuating yet another racial stereotype.

"It's obvious some of the people are taking it the way it's not supposed to be taken," said team member Jeff VanIwarden.

Team members have gotten phone calls from around the country and invitations to appear on television. They were mentioned by Jay Leno on the "Tonight Show," and the American Indian Movement even weighed in supporting the name.

The team chose the name after it couldn't persuade nearby Eaton High School to abandon its nickname the Fightin' Reds and the American Indian caricature on the team logo. The students say the logo is offensive.

http://www.cherokee.org/Phoenix/XXVIno3_Summer2002/PhoenixPage.asp?ID=37

[Pystoff]

34. A better name

The Lawn Mowing Crackers would work....just tour the burbs for awhile it isn't a lie either! LOL

The mascot would be the guy from the Levitra commerical on a riding lawnmower hehe.

[dr.zoidberg]

38. make that 'Corn Shucking Crackers' and we've got something:)

[Pystoff]

43. Eh not generic enough

Maybe for Nebraska or Iowa but hard to use for the rest of america. Lawn Mowing Crackers are everywhere hehe.

[Sabriel]

33. How about The Fighting Maccabees?

Opposing teams could chant, "Mac the Maccabees!"

Or not....

[iamjoy]

45. What About The Orangemen

Weren't those Protestant Scots and Irish? Loyal to England?

Forgive me, my knowledge of non-American history is shamefully inadequate.

Anyway, would Syracuse have to change its mascot too

[mr mister]

46. Syracuse used to be the redmen, I think.

I think the changed to the Orangemen because of this very issue, but I could be wrong.

[davepc]

48. St. Johns University in New York City was the "red men"

But, they originally received that nickname because early (1920's) write up of their games against other universities in local newspapers referred to them as the "red men" due to their...wait for it....red uniforms. (Think: "As the gallant Red Men of St. Johns fought back to tie the score...")

Syracuse, btw, wore orange uniforms . Doesn't take a leap of logic to see where their original mascot/nickname (Orange Men) came from. Harvard wore red too, but they called it Crimson.

The "Yellow Jackets" of the Georgia Tech were so dubbed because during the games the students in the stands wore yellow blazers. Only later did they adopt the stinging insect as a mascot.

St. Johns University changed the name to the "Red Storm" in the 1990's anyways, to avoid the ire of PC protest groups and the NCAA even thought the name had nothing to do with native americans.

[VelmaD]

55. Plus I think they changed it to just the Syracuse Orange...

a few years back.

[Captain Hilts]

37. YES. The red-nosed [i.e. drunken] Leprecaun is more offensive...

than "Redskins."

[JimmyJazz]

49. Here's the difference: Most of the people who go to that school are

Catholic - the mascot represents the people and, if they don't have a problem with it, then so be it.

If the schools with Indian mascots were actually comprised mostly of Indians, you would actually have an acurate analogy.

I'm not agreeing with the decision. I think it should have banned the comical looking Indian mascots, but not necessarily the ones that have respectful portraits of Indians. I'm just pointing out the discrepency in your argument.

[jeffrey_X]

52. Maybe I missed it.....have the Irish been systemically oppressed?

The Irish weren't forced to live on certain plots of property on their indigineous land were they?

Can someone give me a good reason why they really have a problem with this?

[davepc]

56. Not up on Irish history are we?

And the answer is - yes, very much so, both at home (by the English oppressors) and here in the United States (by racist Protestants).

[Eloriel]

75. Yes, the Irish were once horribly oppressed -- but I haven't heard

anyone complain that jobs and opportunities have been denied to them because they were Irish for a very long time (better part of a century now?). Nor have they been prone in recent years to be ghetooized, as they once were in the U.S. Etc.

To my knowledge, the worst that happens re Irish-Americans these days is stereotypes about their drinking habits. They're CERTAINLY not included in any "legally protected class" where discrimination or Affirmative Action is concerned.

[BoneDaddy]

54. no

No,
It is not abusive or hostile, especially because the school was affiliated and run by the Irish Catholics and many Irish Catholics went there and still do. If a Native American college chose the name and a huge number of Natives went there I wouldn't have a problem, but when you look at most of the schools in existence who have a native name they have no "positive" history with native americans and were most likely using the name when native americans still were not allowed to practice their own faith.

This is not about PC. I am so sick of hearing supposed "libs" and progressives bashing simple respect for a culture because they don't want their favorite sports "tribe" to have to change their name.

Now, being Irish myself, if ND chose the name the drunken Irish, then I might have a problem.

[ticapnews]

35. At least no one is overreacting...

I paid a visit to a college hockey message board I used to post on a lot and someone actually compared the movement to change college mascots to the Holocaust. :wtf:

I love that word "transition." Sort of like "final solution," if you get my drift.

And, in the great tradition of that forum, Godwin's Law was invoked after a mere 37 posts. Now I remember why I left in the first place.

[riverwalker]

42. web site archive on this issue

American Indian Sports Team Mascots

http://www.aistm.org/

[Gabi Hayes]

57. yall comfy with all these names? here's the origin of Redskin:

Dear Editor;

It was brought to my attention that some were asking if the term "redskin" was really offensive to Indians and that they would like to hear from us on this subject. Well, here you are...I am Blackfoot, Cherokee and Choctaw...and yes, the term is extremely offensive to me. Let me explain why. Back not so long ago, when there was a bounty on the heads of the Indian people...the trappers would bring in Indian scalps along with the other skins that they had managed to trap or shoot. These scalps brought varying prices as did the skins of the animals.

The trappers would tell the trading post owner or whoever it was that he was dealing with, that he had 2 bearskins, a couple of beaver skins...and a few scalps. Well, the term "scalp" offended the good Christian women of the community and they asked that another term be found to describe these things. So, the trappers and hunters began using the term "redskin"...they would tell the owner that they had bearskin, deer skins....and "redskins."

The term came from the bloody mess that one saw when looking at the scalp...thus the term "red"...skin because it was the "skin" of an "animal" just like the others that they had...so, it became "redskins". So, you see when we see or hear that term...we don't see a football team...we don't see a game being played...we don't see any "honor"...we see the bloody pieces of scalps that were hacked off of our men, women and even our children...we hear the screams as our people were killed...and "skinned" just like animals. So, yes, Mr./Ms. Editor...you can safely say that the term is considered extremely offensive.

In Struggle,
Tina Holder
Mesa, Az.
http://www.aics.org/mascot/redskins.html
http://www.aics.org/mascot/mascot.html

I'm a "Redskins" fan, btw, and always assumed that the name came from the color of their skin while they were alive. This is so much more, uh, colorful, isn't it?

enjoy yourselves, making fun of those who are offended

anybody here offended by Jesus jokes? let's start a thread on that; I'd be happy to contribute there

wake up, white people

[davepc]

61. on scalping...

The Europeans 'learned' scalping from the natives. The first European travelers up the North American waterways in the 1500's wrote of seeing the tops of human heads hung out on display in native villages.

While some claim it was not an unheard of practice in Europe (reportedly the Earl of Wessex in the 1100's had a thing for it) the preferred European method was to take the whole head as trophy. His head on a platter, his head on a pike, etc etc.

Revisionists attempt to suggest that Europeans brought the practice to North America, but the archaeological record (skulls pre-dating Columbus found with distinctive cuts in the top of the skull), and eye witness accounts of European soldiers and explorers who describe both seeing scalps being prepared and displayed by natives, and the tactic being used against their own men well before long term settlements were established suggests otherwise. There were very specific rituals and processes used by the Native Americans to preserve the scalps so that they did not rot and could be displayed.

The great European advancement to the Native practice was metal knife. Native Americans used stone, flint, or bone, cutting tools to take their scalps. European metal blades were a marked improvement.

The Europeans liked scalping in part because the scalp was easier to transport then a whole head. The Natives of Eastern North America were not the plains Natives of 1950's TV westerns. They didn't have horses (nor did any Native American till the Spanish introduced the horse in the late 1400's). A scalp was simply was easier to carry (and wear, in some cases). The Europeans appreciated the ease and mobility afforded the scalp vs an entire head.

The Europeans quickly adopted the native method of war trophy taking and expanded it. Instead of an almost sacred ritual among warriors to take part of the essence of a slain foe and to show worth to your own tribe (more scalps you had, better warrior you were), scalps became a commodity due to bounties, a practice not known to the natives until taught to them by the Europeans. Instead of a war trophy, they became things of barter, bought and sold, which greatly expanded the taking of scalps. Instead of just the scalps of warriors slain in battle, the scalp of any Native (man/woman child/adult) became fair game because of the economic benefit it held when turned into the Bounty payers.

Scalping evolved from a war tradition among the Native Americans, to a terror tactic practiced by both Natives and Europeans. I find the hyperbole in the letter to the editor a bit much, in the context of the practice as it actually occurred.

The English settlers in the early 1700's were terrified when they encountered an adversary who made no distinction between combatant and non-combatant when waging war, and didn't line up in an orderly line with drums and bugles on an open field to fight, but preferred to attack silently without warning. The natives did not fight to 'own' strategic locations, they attacked, did their damage and withdrew. Europeans established forts. It was a clash of two very different cultures. Europeans found scalping to be barbaric, but soon adopted it as their own tactic. (maybe the same way modern US culture sees a suicide bomber as a barbarian, but shrugs when a "smart bomb" destroys a wedding party)

Anyways, my long winded probably poorly made point, is that the whole subject of scalping and "redskins" is a bit more complex then just "evil white man" stuff.

But yeah, the word is grossly offensive in light of what it ACTUALLY means and connotates.

[Eloriel]

76. Makes it all okay, does it?

As if whites didn't have plenty barbarous practices -- smallpox laden blankets, anyone? Genocide, anyone? Mass slaughter of buffalo from trains stopped in the middle of the prairie expressly for that purpose, anyone?

I think your post would have been better made in some other thread -- or preferrably not at all, personally.

[alarimer]

58. Change the Crimson Tide

to the Alabama Harmful Algal Bloom because red tides aren't always red, nor are they tides.

But seriously, how they can only ban those nicknames during the post season??

[Sgent]

59. What about

the fact that at least some of these teams (Flordia State for one), have the support and endorsement of the tribe they are representing?

[cureautismnow]

60. The Seminole Nation of Oklahoma Disapproves

The minority committee asked more than 30 schools to justify their use of Indian imagery, symbols and themes. Some schools, like Florida State University, said tribes supported their mascots. The Seminole Tribe of Florida backs the "Seminoles" but the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma opposes it.

http://www.indianz.com/News/2005/009618.asp

[DancingBear]

64. Ah, FSU - Free Shoes University

Right - NOTHING offensive about a fake Indian riding on horsback (complete with warpaint, even) aftr an FSU touchdown.

BTW, many other Seminole tribes throughout the country find the mascot offensive, even if the Florida Seminole tribe does not.

Oh, and of course - GO BUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JackDragna]

66. I'd watch getting after FSU.

..particularly when one is an Ohio State fan, lest people start bringing up, say, Maurice Clarett?

[DancingBear]

79. Um, do you not find the mascot offensive?

I noticed you evaded that part of the question.

But to get back to your point - if Clarrett was on the FSU team they'd call him an honor student. :)

[Al-CIAda]

80. Exactly, see posts #24 & #25. The Criminoles got 'Chief Billy's' approval

[JackDragna]

65. My problem with this decision.

The NCAA loves to do things that make little difference to the overall level of corruption in college athletics. The few token things they do are, as a columnist for ESPN put it, actions that look good in the press but require little effort by the NCAA. The NCAA worries about whether college players drink their Gatorade out of cups with their logo, whether there are too many color photos on schools' media guides and the like. All of this is done to purposely smokescreen the absolutely gigantic level of corruption in any college sport that receives any attention at all. Of course, football and men's college basketball have big problems with schools falsifying grades for athletes, giving them money under the table and hushing up crimes the players commit, but even the "minor" sports like track and field are full of students on steroids.

I don't think having Native American mascots is necessarily a good thing. I do think, however, that people need to see this for what it is. Football season is fast approaching and pretty much every big football power in America is involved in illegal recruiting practices, player bribes and the like. When the NCAA starts going after those types of violations more seriously, then maybe I'll applaud them for going after the "serious" problem of whether teams with inappropriate names should be in post-season tournaments.

[Eloriel]

77. I'm sure Native Americans who have been fighting this problem

for many years now THANK YOU for your concern, and your prioritization of THEIR issues well under and behind other business practices of the NCAA.

Here's a clue for ya: they're really not related, nor is it strictly necessary to see the two issues as either/or (false choice).

[JackDragna]

87. I do prioritize their issues behind others..

..because, quite frankly, the renaming of sports teams is of miniscule importance compared to the need to reform college athletics. I'm sorry, but acting on this and doing nothing about the rampant abuses in major college athletics is a joke. My sympathies to Native Americans who feel slighted, but their concerns are of ultimately little concern in the grand scheme of things.

[Chovexani]

82. I'm not a fan of college sports, but I know this much

If I saw a team called the NYU Niggers and their mascot was Little Sambo, and every time a touchdown was made some shuffling Stepin Fetchit tapdanced on the field eating watermelon, I'd be pretty fucking pissed off. I have Shawnee blood, not enough to be worth a damn, but it doesn't surprise me that you see individuals within certain tribes that don't care about this--not when there are Log Cabin Republicans and black people voting for the Chimp in Chief. Every group has its apathetic and/or house Negro bunch that is only too happy to serve The Man's insidious designs and sell out their people for 30 pieces of silver.

The NCAA is a bunch of corrupt SOBs, and they're also hypocrites. Why are these names okay during the regular season, but not in the postseason? Either it's completely offensive and should be offlimits all the time, or it's not. Lily-livered bastards.

[Al-CIAda]

83. House 'indian' -you have described 'Chief Billy" of the Seminole

tribe who endorsed FSU's inaccurate and historically inappropriate 'mascot'.

The term 'House Indian' is doubly appropriate as 'Chief Billy is involved in a variety of scams, not the least of which is a lobbyist/gambling scam.

[ChoralScholar]

84. the regular season/post season thing

is not really to be taken at face value - it was a way to get one thing changed by limiting something else. NCAA didn't feel like it had the authority to change school mascots, but it DOES have the authority to administer the playoffs.

It's kind of like when the gov't threatened revocation of federal highway monies if states didn't VOLUNTARILY set a speed limit of 55.

[Blue_Tires]

86. interesting test case

i wonder if names can ever be eradicated from pro teams...