Bryant's defense has new evidence

[duvinnie]

msnbc breaking news...


EAGLE, Colo., Oct. 15 — Kobe Bryant’s accuser
showed up for her rape exam wearing underpants
containing another man’s sperm, a startling
discovery that defense lawyers called “compelling
evidence” the NBA star is innocent.
...
more
...
Legal experts said the evidence of the woman’s
previous sexual partners and her admission she was excited
to meet Bryant makes the prosecution’s case appear weak.
“It’s a disaster for the prosecution,” Eagle attorney Jim
Fahrenholtz said.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/980367.asp?0cv=CA01#BODY

[Chango]

1. Case closed!

Bring on the Spurs!

[J B]

2. Have sex with other men? No one can legally rape you.

Bryant's team is managing to make a mockery of rape shield law, medical confidentiality, and now rape law itself. I guess they're worth every penny.

[duvinnie]

3. on the other hand

one could just as easily argue the converse...the prosecution is mocking and abusing rape law for the
sake of Kobe $$$s.

[J B]

5. The prosecution's gonna earn money on this? Eh?

Just my being rather... curious here...

[section321]

30. A successful prosecution of Kobe would be a huge feather

in the D.A.'s cap. It would be the gateway to higher positions of elected office.

[chimpymustgo]

8. Sorry, but this information is quite pertinent to the case.

As I wrote in another thread - I am a woman, a feminist, and a defender of victims' rights, but this information may shed doubt on the woman's accusations.

If she had sex a couple of days before having sex with Kobe, she could have been injured then. And if she had sex AFTER having sex with Kobe, again - that is when the injuries could have occurred. Very interesting, too, that the prosecution failed to share the info about the different sperm and public hair on the day of the rape exam with the defense.

There may be more facts revealed that will totally implicate Kobe. But today's revelations may cast doubt.

[LiberalFighter]

44. Meaning the evidence was contaminated.

The chain of custody was broken.

When was the exam taken? Immediately after the incident? But it wouldn't make any difference if other sexual acts had occurred within a few days before.

[ender]

15. so, kobe is not allowed to mount a defense?

[Must_B_Free]

31. He apparantly wan't allowed to mount the prosecution either

ba dump bump

[Media_Lies_Daily]

46. The other man's sperm was in her underwear when she was checked out...

...at the hospital. Additionally, a caucasion hair was found on her body during the exam.

And, to top it off, on the night of the incident her boss saw her immediately after she came back to the front desk and stated for the record that she looked fine...no bruises and no dissheveled clothing. That certainly conflicts with the bellman who testified that she was distraught when he saw her.

Oh, by the way, the defense attorney CLEARED the submittel of this evidence with the judge. Doesn't sound like any laws were violated to me.

[dfong63]

4. i don't get it - how are either of those facts relevant?

"having another man's sperm" - duh, so maybe she had a boyfriend.

"excited to meet Bryant" - well, he's a celebrity. that doesn't mean he has a license to commit rape.

these revelations are not relevant unless they somehow contradict the accuser's testimony. do they?

[Nevernose]

6. How do we know that Kobe raped her?

Maybe it was the other man? You know, the one who left his sperm in her/on her panties?

[J B]

9. I imagine the blood on Bryant's shirt was a give-away.

But that's just me.

[demdave]

11. Blood during sex does not equal rape.

There are multiple scenarios that result in blood. I don't see where that would be a solid lockin for rape. It is something that should be addressed though.

[Cheswick2.0]

18. do women you have sex with bleed?

You're doing it wrong. x(

[screembloodymurder]

23. Depends

on the time of the month.

[CatWoman]

28. It depends on the partner

I am in no way a virgin, yet I've bled after having sex.

[demdave]

32. Perhaps I simply have had more varied experiences than you.

There are women who occasioanlly, or even ofetn, bleed during intercourse. There are also various passionate displays of pleasure that may incude blood. And I would be remiss in not mentioning the more risque sexual disciplines.

I hope that helps your understanding of the subject.

[Jacobin]

36. Um, at certain times of the month, they do

[CatWoman]

39. I can't speak for all women

but I find intercourse during the menstral cycle a complete turn off.

It's fucking disgusting.

It's just not right.

[demdave]

49. I can't talk for all men

but, at the risk of being crude, I agree.

[dfong63]

22. i did not state that he was guilty -

... only that this "new evidence" seems barely relevant, unless it somehow contradicts earlier testimony. it doesn't sound like it does.

[demdave]

10. They can be relevant as to the source of injuries.

Without pointing fingers or taking side, I will just try to answer your question.

The accuser's team has pointed to certain injuries, vaginal tearing and bruises as I recall, to bolster it's claim of rape. The defense team is trying to counter with evidence that Kobe was not the only person to recently have sex with her. Thereby trying to put reasonable doubt as to the person that caused the injuries.

[J B]

13. The accuser's team?.......

Ok, I'm not gonna post on this thread anymore. Someone's apparently put out word that this is a civil lawsuit by money-grubbing private attorneys representing a golddigger out for cash.

And I don't intend to dignify that with debate.

[demdave]

16. WOW, you got all that from my post? Put down the pipe.

Would you rather I said the prosecutor's team? I think you are inferring WAY more than I ever meant. Show me where I said she was after money.


Oh, I forgot, you aren't going to post anymore.....BBY

[duvinnie]

14. read the article

other points are raised about the evidence - implications about the blood on the panties etc.

< doesn't mean he has a license to commit rape.

I thought Kobe is considered innocent until...never mind, that's the America we USED to live in.

[plcdude]

7. can you determine the age of dna?

the article certainly presents some major hurddles for the prosecution. The forensic (physical) evidence is mitigating the emotional evidence and will most likely affect of future verdict. Now there is another witness to be called.

[revcarol]

12. Sorry duvinnie: this is NOT news.

Plan to put this entire thread on ignore. I can avoid media hype on TV. I don't have to listen to it here. Could care less about Kobe. The woman accusing him deserves not to have this tried in the press,and so does he.

[duvinnie]

24. sorry

thought it met the LBN criteria. apologies if this doesnt belong..

[revcarol]

27. It meets the requirements.

Sorry to jump on your case, but just tired of media hype of everthing-sharks, Kobe,feel-good stuff- that masquerades as "news."

Not your fault. I apologize.

[mojowork_n]

17. Whatever the final verdict, I have to admit

... I'm glad there's actual, undisputed physical evidence. Of some kind. Which might help the jury figure out what was going on between those two. Including the alleged blood on the shirt submitted into evidence.

However sordid, it would have been worse the other way. I didn't want to see Kobe going on trial in that particular (99.9% white) venue.

Only to have the testimony devolve into a slippery, insubstantial mess, a steamy little puddle on the carpet-- the endlessly circular "he said, she said".

[Heddi]

19. Has anyone considered

that perhaps she was wearing dirty underwear?

I've heard no news that the "extra" semen was inside her vagina, only on her underwear.

I know it's rather gross a thought, but it could be possible that she's wearing underwear that weren't washed after she had sex with someone else....doesn't mean that she was, or wasn't raped----just means that maybe she picked a pair up off the 'dirty' pile by accident.

[Darth_Kitten]

20. Without being TOO graphic.....

how about that "extra" semen coming out with the normal vaginal discharge?

Anybody with a biology or medical background, semen can remain for a few days? :think:

[CatWoman]

29. ok -- so where did the caucasian pubic hair(s) come from?

[Heddi]

33. I haven't heard anything about a blonde pubic hair

but then again, I've forced myself to turn the channel whenever anything Kobe-related has been on TV. I only heard about the semen-in-underwear today on NPR when I was too busy driving to change the radio station.

[kutastha]

34. You don't have to watch TV

Just read the article linked in the original post:

"{Mackey} wasted no time getting Detective Doug Winters to say that the yellow underwear the woman wore to her rape exam at a hospital the next day contained sperm from another man, along with Caucasian pubic hair."

edit: brackets on Mackey

[CatWoman]

37. does it have to be blonde to be caucasian?

:shrug:

[TeeYiYi]

26. That was my thought Heddi . . .

maybe she was saving it. . . Monica never did wash that blue dress . . . :7

TYY

[Voltaire99]

21. Place for Kobe in Arnold's administration?

"Vee have zo much in common as veectems, Mr. Bryan, of puke poleetics."

[LonelyLRLiberal]

25. My theory is that the defense is trying to intimidate the accuser

by letting her know they intend to cross-examine her, and bring in other witneses to testify, about her sexual history to the maximum extent allowed by Colorado law. Maybe the defense is hoping she will get (even more) intimidated about having to testify and change her story about what happened. Then, maybe Kobe thinks he can sue her for defamation. Evil plan, if so.

Anyway, I do agree with others that this is hardly a political topic (unless somehow this has to do with Kobe Bryant's race, which I personally don't think it does - he may be just another rich, spoiled athlete used to getting his way - one way or the other).

[private_ryan]

35. my theory is that Kobe has a right to defend himself, this is relevant

and if I was in his shoes I would want my lawyer to do the same exact thing. He knows what happened, we don't and we may never really know (despite the outcome of the trial).

Kobe Bryant is the accused and he has the right to defend himself, the fact that a woman accused him means nothing, he still has the same rights.

And not all black athletes are rapists (sorry ultra-feminists), some are, just as some women make up rape accusations.

[CatWoman]

38. I'm with you, Ryan

the more info that comes out, the more objective I become.

Something is definitely up here.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

42. Well golly gosh if we examined your other posts in the matter

we might reach the conslusion that any woman that accuses a man of rape is a gold-digging liar. I think a great question is ...if your sister or mother were raped would you want the defense to do the same?

Contrary to your opinion there are TWO people who know the truth.

Kobe has a right to defend himself. I agree. Consensual sex two days prior is hardly a defense from rape charges. I could have consensual sex right now, walk to my car and get raped. Nice to know rape sheild laws won't be there to protect me.

Please point me in a direction of a single post on DU saying ALL BLACK ATHLETES are rapists, even though there is a vvery high incidence of rape occurring with college athletes and it is documented.

As I have posted before, the night the story broke, I was emceeing an event with several pro football hall of famers in attendance. We were backstage in the greenroom and Kobe came up. Funny thing, every last professional black athelete in the room thought he did it.

[NashVegas]

40. Oh, Big Time

That, plus they are doing this all in public with a jury yet to be seated, aren't they?

This way they are virtually guaranteeing a poisoned jury pool - request to move the case to a new location. Because this is all being carried nationally, that might backfire.

If nothing else, they are showing her to be some sort of skank. If the panties she wore to the exam were dirty -- didn't her mama never tell her to always wear clean ones?

Other ways a blond pubic hair could have gotten there - in the laundry, if she had previously washed her clothes with a blond's undies. *shrugs*

[private_ryan]

41. and the phony leaks that she had marks on her neck

forced anal sex etc were released by Kobe's attorneys, right?

Give me a break, both parties are playing the public opinion game.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

43. Forced anal sex was an internet rumor..I don't recall an actual news story

except for the defense confirming that it WAS NOT the case.

[truthisfreedom]

45. this case is being played out in the classic rape court case form...smear

the victim, intimidate the victim. we can't know exactly what happened in that hotel room because there was no third party and there are two opposing stories. it's tragic that these things have to be solved in such a damaging way, but human sexuality is the last real tie we have with our animal instincts besides violence, and the two sometimes mix, so the result gets thrown into the courtroom. if some could figure out a better way to find out the truth, we'd all benefit. rape cases are uniformly horrible. there is at least a subtle level of coercion to any act of sex that doesn't involve carefully discussed details prior to the act, and a good deal of time for both parties to become familiar with each other, so that very sudden acts of sex between parties that don't know each other have such strong animal-like auras that the rationalization after-the-fact is a blurry mess of questionable truths. what exactly are the facts involved when people shut down their thinking processes for the purpose of sexual pleasure? although "no means no" is a powerful rallying cry, "no" is also a word that might be spoken, tragically, too late to stop the train at the crossing, so to speak. unfortunately, without a completed verbal or written contract for sexual activity between two people, the threat of something going terribly wrong hangs over a man's head like a heavy, sharp sword. it seems a day is coming where civilization will have forms for everything, where a quick signature will be required before anything spontaneous happens... and what will the failsafe be? a "no means no" electro-shock button?

[Chango]

47. Regarding the pubic hair and exrtra semen....

It seems to indicate she had sex with somebody else between the time of the alleged rape and her medical examination. If so, I think that would have a great bearing on the credbility of the prosecution's case. Really now, would somebody in their right mind who has just experienced a traumatic rape be in the mood for more sex the next day? It severely diminishes the gravity of the situation.

Another thing that came out was that she did not tell the investigators in her first interview that she told Kobe "no." That came later. In the first interview, I think she actually said that he stopped whatever he was doing and ejaculated externally.

[Maddy McCall]

48. GET IT THROUGH YOUR FUCKING HEAD!! RAPE IS NOT SEX!!!!!

GODDAM STUPID PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD!!!

[demdave]

50. Sorry, rape is a tramatic event, that would be out of the norm

I will not rule out anyone acting in any fashion. We, as a people, cover the entire spectrum, but having sex the day after a rape would be unusual. I believe the statistics will back me up on this one.

Did she have a steady boyfriend? That might change the scenario, but for her to have sex with a stranger the very next day after a rape would be highly unusual.

I think the whole case is still WAY up the air.

[Maddy McCall]

52. Her guyfriend who babysat her after the alleged incident...

said that her injuries were brutal.

Who the fuck cares if she had a "steady boyfriend?"

IF I go out on a date tonight and have sex with a boyfriend (steady or not) and am raped by a famous, popular athlete on the way home, or at my job afterwards, does that make the rape any less a rape if it was NOT CONSENSUAL???

GODDAM it is sickening that MEN OF DU think rape is sex, and if a woman is raped after consensual sex, then she MUST BE A SLUT, because only a SLUT would have "sex" twice in one day with two different people.

RAPE IS VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN!!! IT IS NOT SEX!

If I take medicine this morning, and later in the day someone gives me a roofie without my consent, does that make me a drug abuser???


Your kind of reasoning disgusts me. STEADY BOYFRIEND MY ASS! Is that what it takes to be a legitimate "woman" in your vision of society???

God help your wife or daughter if they are ever sexually active and are raped on the same day they have consensual sex with someone else. Maybe you will change your tune then.

And Tide doesn't kill lice. Has it ever crossed your mind that it may not kill sperm either?

Forensic scientists can even identify DNA on a spotless floor after bleach and 409 have been used to clean up after a bloody murder. Could it not be possible that any of us carry the evidence of previous sexual encounters in our undies every day? This serves as notice to all cheating spouses: BURN YOUR FUCKING UNDIES!!! THE OLD LADY MAY BE ABLE TO TAKE YOUR YEAR OLD BVDS IN FOR TESTING AND YOUR PREVIOUS DOZEN INDISCRETIONS MAY BE REVEALED. *GASP!!!*

[demdave]

54. Calm down and read my post,

I am not talking in that post about before the attack. I stated quite clearly what I thought the odds were of a woman having sex after a rape were. You are blinded be rage if you can not see what the point in my post was.

You can take you your rant about the "MEN OF DU" and scream in your own lonely little world. Your ranting is not proving any point other that the one that states you are blinded by rage and no longer even read the posts.

[Maddy McCall]

57. How do you know that what was on the panties was from AFTER the rape????

Just because a forensic scientist can find a blood particle on my floor today doesn't mean it found its way there today. It could have been deposited there MONTHS ago, and my cleaning supplies just couldn't remove it.

There have been bodies from the NEOLITHIC that still have DNA present taht scientists can study. I am NOT impressed by the PR blitz that she had "semen" in her panties. I imagine most women would, unless they are putting their clothes in an autoclave after every sexual encounter.

I am not blinded by rage, but even if I were, it would be more justifiable than being so star-struck as to excuse VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN at any cost. Rather be lonely than join in the Cult of Kobe, men at DU who would consider themselves liberals in every other way except for believing that violence against women is inexcusable.

[demdave]

59. I had never heard of this fool before this case

I do not watch B=ball. I never said it was after, I addressed the situation of if it was after. Obviously there is no opinion to be made if the semen was there before. I was addressing the assertion that she had sex AFTER the alledged rape. Read my post again and take a deep breath.


"It seems to indicate she had sex with somebody else between the time of the alleged rape and her medical examination." Was the exact quote that you originally responded to, try to stay focussed and follow the thread.

[frustrated_lefty]

55. Why?

"Forensic scientists can even identify DNA on a spotless floor after bleach and 409 have been used to clean up after a bloody murder. Could it not be possible that any of us carry the evidence of previous sexual encounters in our undies every day?"

Sure, but that raises the question "why isn't there evidence of Bryant's DNA in her underwear?

[Maddy McCall]

56. Ummmm....that answer is obvious for anyone who has ever had sex...

Guys don't always "come" inside the woman, now do they?

I know no guys on DU have ever pulled out, or have ever been unable to "finish."

[frustrated_lefty]

60. Ok...

Snide, but ok. At the moment, I'm not leaning one way or another as to his innocence or guilt.

My gut instinct when I first heard of the case was "of course, he's guilty, it's just a question of if he'll be convicted."

The evidence that's been submitted in the last few days,however, I think deserves consideration.

A woman or man's prior sexual history should not be used as an argument of promiscuity to prove the point "he/she wanted it, so it was obviously consensual."

The strongest evidence I am aware of in this case against Bryant claims vaginal tearing, suggesting forced entry. The problem is, this is the same physical evidence you would expect to see with a person who interacts with multiple partners throughout the day.

That thought alone doesn't convince me of anything.

However:

1) she screwed multiple guys within a short period of time
2) she went out of her way to avoid security and sneak into Bryant's room
3) she admits to making out with the guy, and initiating sexual relations consensually
4) there is no DNA evidence of Bryant, whereas there IS DNA evidence of at least one, possibly two, other guys having intimate relations with this woman in a brief period of time.

You, jchild, state:

"Guys don't always "come" inside the woman, now do they?"

Ok....so you envision he threw himself upon her with wild abandon and managed to conceal his sperm in the x dimension?

Maybe she came to his room, they romped for a bit, she said no and he pulled out but it wasn't fast enough to suit her after the fact.

People who saw he immediately afterward say she seemed in good spirits and health. I'm not saying she's lying. But I do think in this case the mere accusation will not suffice in the courts.

I could be wrong, the Nazi's seem to be doing well here these days.

[juajen]

53. I heard on the news tonight (think it was Abrams) that

she told the investigator early on that she had sex with her boyfriend a few days before the rape. I'm sure the prosecution will say the semen was a "drip drip" from the previous act. Makes sense, as semen will stay in the vagina sometimes for days. Ditto for the pubic hair. Does anyone know if tests have shown that the pubic hair is different from the boyfriends DNA?

[imax2268]

51. This case is getting crazy...

Now I don't know what really happend...I wasn't there...none of us were...just the two involved...

But...

Consider this...

1) "different semen" found at rape examination...doesn't matter how old it is or how it got there...it was there...
2) The semen was not that of Kobe Bryant's...no DNA match...
3) The pubic hair found belonged to a "white male"...not a black male...
4) She went around the back way to his room...
5) Her boss said she seemed normal when she went back to work...
6) Her story to the police is not matching up...
7) She has a mental history...
etc...etc...

There are to many things stacking up against her...

Now if Kobe is guilty...then he should do the time...rape is wrong and if guilty he should be punished...

But I think that maybe...just maybe...this will not be the end for Kobe...

[depakid]

58. Maybe I'm missing something-

but if this is true, it doesn't sound like "new" evidence.

Whether it's relevant or not under Colorado law is another matter.