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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-05 12:18 PM
Original message
Surviving Chicago's sex slave trade
http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-traffic07.html

She was walking by the Freedom Monument -- a popular meeting spot in Riga, Latvia, and a symbol of the nation's independence -- when Alex Mishulovich introduced himself and made an intriguing offer.

Come to America. And dance.

He was looking for dancers at his clubs in Chicago -- his high-end respectable clubs where clothes stayed on. There would be nothing vulgar about it.

And she'd make $60,000 -- a fortune to a girl from a small Baltic country that had shed the bonds of communism not long before.

The girl -- whom the Chicago Sun-Times isn't naming and, for her safety, is identifying only as Z -- was 18, and had just graduated from high school. She'd studied ballroom dancing, but was uncertain what to do with her life.

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Rich Hunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-05 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. great article!

Thanks, I was wondering if that stuff was going on in Chicago.
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Skwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-05 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. Only a 9 year prison sentence!!

"Mishulovich, 44, was sentenced to about nine years in prison. He's jailed on his involuntary servitude conviction at the Metropolitan Correctional Center in the Loop and is slated for release in fall 2006. Through a prison official, Mishulovich declined to comment."



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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-05 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
3. This is WHY
A hate the PORN INDUSTRY,because it is an INDUSTRY that deals in human bodies for consumption.

Alot of porn is not as voluntary as consumers of porn want to believe.

And their desire to believe it is so voluntary and so free of coercion as porn users have an insatiable demand for more and more different,more kinky and whatever.. DEMAND without enough willing subjects creates these abuse and human trafficking issues.If porn users want absolutely clean porn,take pictures of themselves.
Or better yet relate to women as real people with thoughts feelings and dreams of their own instead of sperm receptacles and sexy objects on a rotating platter to gorge upon.
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-05 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. roger that u.p.
i'm all for free love as long as everyone is free. but as long as women continue to be frozen out of decent jobs, they are not free.
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Human slavery is a big issue, but...
The thing I've heard some say about porn being demeaning to women of and in itself isn't true, its a distraction in my opinion. The fact is that one of the largest markets for porn is couples, and some women, being individuals, do like it.

All that aside though I agree that clean porn should be a priority. One of the best ways would be to have exhibitionist/voyeur clubs online, where there's no money changing hands only people exposing themselves if it is their personal sexual desire to do so.

Aside from that, you could fight slavery by having porn charities. ;)
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rogue_bandit Donating Member (105 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-05 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Funny idea
But it might work, especially in the big cities.

"fight slavery by having porn charities"
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-05 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Yeah, I was thinking of that after I said.
I ran it by my freind right after posting. She couldn't think of anything wrong with it either! Fight sex slavery, be in free porno! I can see the ads now. :)
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Rich Hunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-05 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. oh yeah...

What a great idea....if you like attracting stalkers and blackmailers.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-05 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Why are you assuming all these" Couples"
Are cocercion free?

Abusive men can beat a woman for years,making her"agree" to sex exploitation is more of the same abuse.Just because it's a couple does not guaruntee it is consenting.Don't fool yourself..
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-05 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Well, there's no guarantee that its consensual, but I think it often is.
I have personal experience of dating a woman who like to watched pornography. She fantasized about being a stripper but was too shy. I never coerced her into any of this, in fact I thought it was kind of seedy, and It was part of why we broke up. But the fact is that there are all kinds of people out there, fetishes like domination or exhibitionism aren't exclusivly the domain of men. Women, like men, are individuals. Some like the sleazy stuff some don't.

But I agree with what you're saying about coercion, I think its a big thing. The fact that the mafia so often has their dirty hands in porn tells a lot. But I think the main thing is that we recognize some people are going to do these things, we should focus specifically on what's coerced, and where the money is going, rather than getting to worried about the morality of consensual exhibitionist/voyeur relations, which porn often is.
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mongo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #12
28. Another popular misconception
The fact that the mafia so often has their dirty hands in porn tells a lot.

That may have been true when it was illegal to shoot an explicit movie and a producer needed cash to create a production, but now the business is legit and mainstream.

Like any industry, there are good and bad players. People who play it by the book, and people who don't

Especially back in the days of peep show booths, operators used to skim profits off the top. It was all cash, it was untraceable, and so it was compelling to steal. And yeah, in NYC for example, the mob used adult bookstores for money laundering, etc.

But today's industry has come a long way out of the dark ages.
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #28
41. Interesting.
Yeah, you may be right. To be honest, its hard to know what to think about porn involvment in sex slavery etc, because there are a lot of rumors flying around and its difficult to find hard facts. I imagine a lot of rumors come because the porn industry seems to operate "behind closed doors" more than other businesses, therefore they are more succeptible to rumors, much like the CIA or other secretive organizations.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-05 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
21. Why are you assuming it's the woman who's coerced?
That's another assumption. It could have been the man.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #21
33. Yeah if he was young enough to be entrapped
But men are usually the ones who rape, and who get better paying jobs than women and men don't have kids.I think younger guys and boys can be cocerced.

Grown men,I don't buy it so easily because men are the dominators in this culture.Men who exploit women without shame do it on so many levels you would not know how sick it is unless you were female..
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. "Men are usually the ones who rape"
Another assumption. You are assuming that rapes get reported by men as frequently as they do by women.
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Rich Hunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #42
51. Uh, wait a minute

The poster said that "men are usually the ones who rape". That is not the same thing as saying that women are usually the ones who GET raped.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. True, that is another assumption.
But it's in addition to the first one.
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mongo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #8
25. Yes, anyone that doesn't agree with your narrow view of
sexuality and porn is being "coerced".

Get a grip.

A large portion of my movie business is couples shopping TOGETHER for movies.
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Kraklen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
27. Yikes.
Do you have such a low opinion of women that you think they'd only be interested in pornography as a way to avoid being beaten?
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
39. because people have free will....
and have choice.

Yes a man can beat a women but weapons can be a great equalizer, be it a blunt object, a sharp knife, or a .45 automatic.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #8
44. Like John Bolton
and the doctor that just got some sort of high and mighty position in the Bush administration, whose wife complained that he had a habit of anally raping her?
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rogue_bandit Donating Member (105 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-05 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Best statement I've heard on subject
"DEMAND without enough willing subjects creates these abuse and human trafficking issues."

Thank you. I have had doubts until now, but your statement has convinced me.

The same statement can be made about oil, I think.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-05 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. You betcha
And what do MARKETERS do?

Create DEMAND make you THINK you must have it..And with the way advertizing hypes up sex you think you must have it all the time,try anything, or somehow or you are less of a person and to me this is sick. Our cultures puritanical hypocrite restrictiveness has left scars so we have no clue what our own sex drives might be like,As adolesents we are told lies parents and church says stay virgins yetamong our peers we are told to be ashamed of it,and hate being virgins..what a mindfuck!

What about what we ourselves want in a relationship? Do we even remember what we want really,maybe love freindhip closeness to feel proximity? The Big unspoken Tabooo...



So I have a game that I pretend, when I'm not allowed to pretend love, when no one else will pretend love with me. It's true I fall in love much more often than any one person is supposed to do. It's true that if I can be alone with any one person for an hour or two I can achieve falling in love with him or her. But this is desperate, and they won't believe it and they won't play it, my game of universal love, So I just go along, painting it.

http://www.unknownnews.net/a0125.html#kj21

Some people are more emotionally equipped to handle freedom than others are. People emotionally equipped to handle freedom don't have a compulsion to lie, they don't get off on physically or verbally abusing people, they don't abuse people 's trust either. They don't intimidate, humiliate or belittle other people to force them to be silent. They don't act like greedy pigs at other's expense.

They police themselves from within. They have self control and confidence that comes with self awareness

http://www.unknownnews.net/a061312-1.html

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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
54. i agree fully
"And with the way advertizing hypes up sex you think you must have it all the time,try anything, or somehow or you are less of a person and to me this is sick."

great point
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Mr Rabble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-05 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. How is this porn? This is slavery. Big difference.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-05 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Porn is PHOTOS
A show

Do you ever wonder how the pictures and performers are produced.Porn does not just go pouf and appear from a void dude.
People make porn using people..Wake up!

There is very little diference Porn is produced it is an industry with a demand that outstrips supply because the demand is manufactured.
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Mr Rabble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-05 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. This article mentions neither porn nor pictures.
It talks about slavery. Girls being forced into stripping.

This is NOT porn.

I am not advocating porn, just pointing out that this case has nothing to do with porn.

You are drawing a parallel that is similar to the way Santorum sees homosexuality= beastiality or pedophelia.

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mongo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
26. Manufactured demand?
WTF? How many commercials for porno's do you see on prime time TV? Or in your local newspaper?

Before I opened my store, people drove 30 miles to get an explicit movie or toy. I was told over and over again how glad people were that I opened and they didn't have to drive to Newark anymmore.

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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. How many times do ads use sex to sell other shit?
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mongo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. And what exactly does that have to do with the adult film industry?
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mongo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #3
24. What a steamy load of BS
Alot of porn is not as voluntary as consumers of porn want to believe.

Ah, NO. Not the 1,000 releases every month in the US at least. There are plenty of women entering the industry everyday, of their own accord.

Did the posted article have anything to do with the porn industry? NO.



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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #24
32. Mongo
I do not expect a self declared defender of porn to have an open mind if it threatens the"integrity" of his favorite industry.Lets start there you are biased .

I myself could give a RATS ass what consenting people do together I have said this a million times..Whast I worry about is NON consenting. And if all porn stripping or porn video was truly made by consenting people there would be no need for a sex trade would there?

Answer me that one.

And yes I know every porn star is an actor doing a job coerced or not, they all have to pretend they want it,so by LOOKING at porn alone it is very hard to tell if she is enjoying it or acting like she likes it.

You have to look at ALL SIDES of the industry to see it and I am against coerced porn,
Women still in jobs make less than men,women give birth.,women can be raped..So until those issues are solved I have a tendency to be less trusting of porn purveyors.
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mongo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. If you don't give a rat's ass -
Why do you insinuate that there MUST be "coerced" porn being made in the US?

Are some women "coerced" into porn by their slimy boyfriends(suitcase pimps)? Yes. There are women "coerced" into working for Walmart to support their deadbeat boyfriends too.

Fact is, you took an article that had nothing to do with porn, and used it as a platform to advance an anti-porn viewpoint, by making unfair characterizations about the industry.

I do not expect a self declared defender of porn to have an open mind if it threatens the"integrity" of his favorite industry.Lets start there you are biased .

Or maybe it means that I may know just a tad more about the industry than you do. And that I don't get my information about it from RW sources.

And if all porn stripping or porn video was truly made by consenting people there would be no need for a sex trade would there?

WTF? You are comparing apples and oranges.






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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Didn't you get the memo?
All men are scum. Women never victimize, coerce, defraud, or otherwise inflict injury upon men. It is all men. Get with the program. :sarcasm:
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #34
45. Because
Where was this slave ring BUSTED at..What AMERICAN city?

Mongo pleasse get overyourself because I am against bullying cocercion exploitation of human beings.Read the friggin article and let go of your dick maybe you'll learn what empathy with another persons situation is without your own ego clouding it..*sarcasm*

Yes I know alot of porn is LEGIT..Quit trying to paint me as your satan.. and unlike you I can also realize dispite your pollyanna preferences some porn and stip clubs are NOT LEGIT,even in the US...I am angry at the NOT legit pornography and the asshole industry that seeks out vunerable people to exploit for obscene profits..Fuck the scum that cocerce exploit and mislead people for profits. And if you are oblivious to the fact this happens I know why you are such a defender of smut..Does thou protest too much mongo? Perhaphs.
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mongo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. OK prove it.
Give me a title of a movie released and distributed in the US - in the last 20 years since porn has been more mainstream, with a performer who is a sex slave.

Good luck with that...
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Lucky I guess..

Chronicles of the 21st Century
Sex slavery in America: 2004

Yes, there are slaves in the U.S. They're bound to prostitution, forced-labor farms and factories, and they're in private homes. Almost all are women, and most have been smuggled into the U.S. from poverty-stricken nations like Uzbekistan, Ukraine, and Mexico. According to Senator John Cornyn (R-Texas), "Americans may be particularly alarmed to learn that at least 15,000 human beings are trafficked into lives of slavery in the United States each year." Others, however, are putting the estimate as high as 50,000 a year. They're lured here by slave traders who promise them education or steady jobs. They're kept in line by a variety of physical and psychological abuses. If they're women, they're often raped and sexually humiliated. And they're in nearly every state of the union. Read the full Cox News Service story on the Sydney Morning Herald:
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/07/09/108900035708
4.html?oneclick=true#

http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2005/Mar/02-372950.html
http://www.family.org/cforum/fosi/pornography/facts/a0026237.cfm
http://www.channel3000.com/news/2846265/detail.html
http://news.monstersandcritics.com/northamerica/article_1036148.php/10_charged_in_N.J._sex_slave_ring

http://napsterization.org/stories/archives/000155.html

Here is some stats
http://www.oneangrygirl.net/nextdoor.html

More
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4532617.stm

More
http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/kouri/050728

More
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2005/tabor071405.htm


Illgal porn is made in the US rings get busted..It goes on and on.

And what do these rings sell?..porn and a tape you got today may very well contain images of slaves.And you wouldnt KNOW it unless you see the confiscated stash..

And that is industries prone to be abusive industries like porn can get away with abuse.. because people like YOU are self declared crusaders blindly supporting an industry who does not respect the meaning of consent and takes advantage of vunerable people WAY too much..Hoew can you support porn as if it was a squeaky clean enterprize because you DENY all these porn slave sex rings get busted.They sell porn...How many slave rings need to get busted before you wonder if a 30 second orgasm alone looking at photiographs worth knowing that to make the picture there is a good chance the abuse that comes with producing it is why you have it?

Until pornographers quit the nod and wink bullshit,and learns to help bust these sex slave rings,and cleans out the ABUSERS from thier own industry and it learns what consent really means I do not respect pornographers or pretend thier wares are free of abuse.

Until pornpographers learn to respect human beings as people..I don't respect porn.

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mongo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. When you don't have any facts -
Dazzle 'em with BS and a lot of meaningless links


Yes, there are slaves in the U.S. They're bound to prostitution, forced-labor farms and factories, and they're in private homes. Almost all are women, and most have been smuggled into the U.S. from poverty-stricken nations like Uzbekistan, Ukraine, and Mexico. According to Senator John Cornyn (R-Texas), "Americans may be particularly alarmed to learn that at least 15,000 human beings are trafficked into lives of slavery in the United States each year." Others, however, are putting the estimate as high as 50,000 a year. They're lured here by slave traders who promise them education or steady jobs. They're kept in line by a variety of physical and psychological abuses. If they're women, they're often raped and sexually humiliated. And they're in nearly every state of the union. Read the full Cox News Service story on the Sydney Morning Herald:
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/07/09/108900035708
4.html?oneclick=true#


I never said that women were never trafficked into the US. I maintain that films that are the filming of crimes, I.E. rape do not enter the legit adult industry distribution chain. And this link does not work.

http://usinfo.state.gov/gi/Archive/2005/Mar/02-372950.h...

This link is about child pornography Equating this with the legit adult industry is like calling someone with a backyard meth lab part of the pharmaceutical industry.

http://www.family.org/cforum/fosi/pornography/facts/a00...

More on Child pornography And from Focus on the family no less. You couldn't even find any lies about the adult industry on their site?

http://www.channel3000.com/news/2846265/detail.html

Again child porncriminal enterprise.

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/northamerica/article...

Not a single mention of porn in this article about trafficked women. Like I said, when you don't have ANY facts, dazzle them with meaningless links.

http://napsterization.org/stories/archives/000155.html

From the NY times article referenced in the link:
Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents at the Cyber Crimes Center in Fairfax, Va., are finding that when it comes to sex, what was once considered abnormal is now the norm. They are tracking a clear spike in the demand for harder-core pornography on the Internet.

Again, an illegal internet site. Not part of the legal adult film industry in the US. This is an illegal enterprise run by criminals

Here is some stats
http://www.oneangrygirl.net/nextdoor.html


Same article as above, with some commentary. I guess if you post the same thing twice it doubles the amount of "proof" you have.

More
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4532617.stm


Not about the US, and no mention of porn whatsoever. Did you only put up all these links to waste my time?

More
http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/kouri/050728


Again NO mention of porn. Did I say that women were never trafficked into the US? NO. What I said is that you will not find films of rape and sex slaves in the US adult film industry. To which you have not provided even a single link to some dubious source on the internet.


More
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2005/tabor071405.htm


No actual facts about porn being made by sex slaves here. Just a bunch of hyperbole and BS about porn from the RW thing tank Rand. For example:

Pornography is just as addictive as any narcotic drug...

The greedy purveyors of pornography are creating more and more sex addicts whose depraved desires ultimately result in carnal crimes against women and children...

It’s time we come back to common sense before more irreversible damage is done to countless human lives. If that means "censorship" of Hollywood movies — and stiff prison sentences and heavy fines for those who appear in, produce and distribute hard-core pornography — so be it.


So, rantings from a would-be censor, who provides absolutely no evidence of porn being made by sex slaves.

Illgal porn is made in the US rings get busted..It goes on and on.

Child porn does get made in the US - by criminals The tapes do not enter the legit adult entertainment chain. What will it take to get this through to you? Or do you think that -

Meth labs are part of the pharmaceutical industry?
Arsonists are part of the building demolition industry?
Scam artists who prey on Ebay users are part of the Ebay company?
Computer Virus writers are part of the software industry?

In the last 20 years or so, exactly four underage performers have been filmed. ALL of them entered the industry willingly and provided a fake ID. All releases with those performers have been destroyed.


And what do these rings sell?..porn and a tape you got today may very well contain images of slaves.And you wouldnt KNOW it unless you see the confiscated stash..

Sorry, but I know exactly where all 1700 movies in my back room came from. And it is not made from sex slaves. There is an endless supply of performers willing to enter the business.

And that is industries prone to be abusive industries like porn can get away with abuse.. because people like YOU are self declared crusaders blindly supporting an industry who does not respect the meaning of consent and takes advantage of vunerable people WAY too much..Hoew can you support porn as if it was a squeaky clean enterprize because you DENY all these porn slave sex rings get busted.They sell porn...How many slave rings need to get busted before you wonder if a 30 second orgasm alone looking at photiographs worth knowing that to make the picture there is a good chance the abuse that comes with producing it is why you have it?

You have no idea what you are talking about. You have provided NO proof of your contentions. And you'd better stop shopping at CVS because they are part of the meth industry.

Until pornographers quit the nod and wink bullshit,and learns to help bust these sex slave rings,and cleans out the ABUSERS from thier own industry and it learns what consent really means I do not respect pornographers or pretend thier wares are free of abuse.

More BS hyperbole from someone that doesn't have a bit of a clue what they are talking about.

Until pornpographers learn to respect human beings as people..I don't respect porn.

Until anti-sex forces stop trying to censor what other people watch in the privacy of their own homes, make up lies about the industry, and try to stop consenting adults from working in the adult industry, I won't have any respect for them either.
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #49
57. excellent response....
Edited on Thu Aug-11-05 07:56 AM by antfarm
There is an agenda at play on many of those sites, and IMO it has more to do with illusion than reality.

It is interesting to me that I recognize many of these links from surfing i've done at sites that also insist on the existence of widespread abuse of children in satanic cults or by secret government programs. And people who believe in widespread abuse of children in satanic cults and through government programs are heavily represented by people who believe in repressed memories of abuse, and have ties to that "subcult" of psychology. In other words, there is a group of people with a serious agenda here to defend, and it has to do with defending a perception of the world as inherently and pervasively abusive of women and children, even in the absence of FACTS.

And I hate to say it, but I also recognize a couple of names in this discussion from very heated threads defending the existence of either repressed memories, ritual satanic abuse networks, or goverment programs that exist to make children into sex slaves.

Until I see actual FACTS to the contrary, I seriously doubt that sex slavery and coerced participation are widespread and endemic to the porn industry in America, and I would trust the word of someone who is very familiar with the business more than that of websites that clearly have an agenda.
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pseudostar Donating Member (67 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. WTF?
"I do not expect a self declared defender of porn to have an open mind if it threatens the"integrity" of his favorite industry.Lets start there you are biased ."

Sweetie, it appears that YOU have your noggin closed to any info that takes a mark at your pre-established world view.

"And if all porn stripping or porn video was truly made by consenting people there would be no need for a sex trade would there?

Answer me that one."

This is analogous to if all manufacturing work were done by consenting adults there would be no need for sweatshops. SexSlave labor is MUCH cheaper than paying consenting adults, that is why this shit exists.

"You have to look at ALL SIDES of the industry to see it and I am against coerced porn,"

Did someone say they were for it? We all agree that coerced sexslavery is pretty goddamn repugnant.

"Women still in jobs make less than men"

true, but not female strippers/Porn Stars (Girl Power!)

"women give birth."

I dont think this issue will EVER be solved

"women can be raped"

So can men (admittedly this happens a lot less frequently). again, this problem will never be solved.

"I have a tendency to be less trusting of porn purveyors."

Okay this ad hominem shit stinks. While I dont believe Mongo is involved in a noble enterprise (no offense meant dude, but it IS porn), discredit him because of his trade is total crap.

he doesn't creat the demand for porn. Boobies do. Men like them. We like to look at them.

Support free porn Buy American! (or download from pro-'murikan sites like patrioticsluts.com)
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Kraklen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
29. The sports industry deals with human bodies for consumption.
And with the commercial porn industry, like the sports industry, the performers sign contracts and are paid for their services.
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pseudostar Donating Member (67 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
37. huh?
Edited on Mon Aug-08-05 03:23 PM by pseudostar
"DEMAND without enough willing subjects creates these abuse and human trafficking issues."

Proof please! DVDs can be burned many many many times. One willing participant can service millions of people. Human trafficking is more a result of slimy doucheknuckles wal-marting americans out of jobs.

Hell, Id let a guy blow his load on my face for no less than 9 million dollars (Im a straight dude, but I have my price)...

Maybe the average Girls Gone Wild Slut would do it for $5,000

An aging stripper with no other job skills might do it for $500...

But a slimy motherfucker who should have his penis revoked with a pair of rusty scissors can exploit a naive eastern european girl for $20 (even though the article was about strippers and not porn movies).

It's a race to the bottom. Unionize Strippers!

"porn users have an insatiable demand for more and more different,more kinky and whatever"

No offense, but what the hell would you know? You are obviously a woman and have not been clued into the fact that guys do not need ANY help coming up with depraved ideas/fetishes/whatever that would get us smacked by our girl friends/wives should we actually be stupid enough to request it
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #3
38. waaa, porn is the devil....
yeah maybe some of the porn is made that way, but it doesnt mean that all porn is made that way.

Anyways even if I did believe what you say is 100% the truth I could still say my conscious is clear cause I dont pay for my porn.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Porn isn't the devil
Profiting off cocercing people and exploiting thier vunerabilities IS.
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mongo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #38
50. Just wanted to clarify your statement
yeah maybe some of the porn is made that way, but it doesnt mean that all porn is made that way.

Some illegal child porn is made that way, but it is not part of the adult film industry. It is made by criminal enterprises which have nothing to do with the industry. See my post above.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-05 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
14. you can't save people from their own stupidity
the slaver belongs in prison certainly but the young lady knew perfectly well she wasn't going to be dancing fully clothed for $60K a year -- in 1995 dollars, as this promise was made 10 yrs ago!

it became slavery when she realized she was only getting $20 a night

i've heard this complaint many times from strippers, the problem isn't porn, the problem is stripping is too accepted now so doesn't pay as well as it once did, it was worth taking off yr clothes for $300 a night in 1978 dollars, not worth it and having to perform sex acts for $100 a night in 2004 dollars, dancers and whores used to be different people, now a dancer is expected to masturbate guys w. her ass, perform sex acts w. other girls at bachelor parties, and pretty much do more than a full-fledged whore had to do in the 70s

that's the issue

falling wages

we all feel like slaves

if the dude in chicago paid better, he'd have all the girls he could stand w/out committing crime of slavery, he apparently preferred to steal the labor

sort of like all bosses everywhere the way it's going
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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-05 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Excuse me? From Russia? ...n/t
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Rich Hunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-05 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. it's probably not the stripping
Edited on Sun Aug-07-05 06:02 PM by Rich Hunt
No one's gonna say out loud, "oh yes, I'll go to USA and be a stripper!" Of course they probably knew.

It's the coercion.
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Nikia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-05 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. How can you say that she knew what she was getting into?
How was she supposed to know about the exotic dancing industry in the United States? Also, if she was a normal exotic dancer at those clubs she would have been making a lot more money. It said on a good night, she made $500 in tips. Her slavers took all of it except $20. Strip clubs have different policies on how much of her tips a girl takes home, but at a normal strip club she would have taken home at least a couple hundred dollars.
It was also slavery because she wasn't allowed to quit and leave. A normal stripper has this option if she isn't making as much money as she had hoped. If she weren't a slave, she could have gotten a job at a restaurant or something. She could also go away with an admiring customer if she so chose.
She was a slave because she couldn't leave and she wasn't getting the money that she earned.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-05 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Right, the yakuza in Japan go abroad to recruit "night club singers"
"bar hostesses" and "dancers" who are then expected to "pay for" their airfare and clothing by prostituting on the side.
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
40. excellent post...
inflation and falling wages are a bitch.
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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-07-05 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
16. Terriable......really awful!....
I feel so bad for them...............

Bama
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Rich Hunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-05 07:50 AM
Response to Original message
23. this is part of a series
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mixedview Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-05 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
48. legalizing and regulating prostitution would solve alll of these problems
Edited on Tue Aug-09-05 11:43 PM by mixedview
It would be subject to market forces like any other industry, and would taxed/regulated to ensure safety and better protect the rights of all those involved - workers and owners. It would take the criminal element out of it.

Criminalizing anything normal people engage in/don't see anything that wrong in engaging in such as prostitution, gambling, recreational drugs and any other vice - simply enables real criminals to gain more control society, ( ex: the way prohibition empowered the mafia) and contributes to the expansion of the prison industrial complex - it destroys lives, by throwing otherwise law abiding citizens down the dark hole of the criminal injustice system.
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Rich Hunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. right about that...

It would force these scum out into the open.
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Nikia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #48
55. But the woman in the original story was in a legal business
Her employment wasn't legal nor was her detainment, but other women employed at such clubs do work legally.
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mixedview Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. True, but the criminal element lurks
because of the opportunity to be involved in lucrative, criminal enterprise (prostitution).

If it was legal, everything would be out in the open, and the criminal element would be removed.

It's the difference between getting alcohol from the Mafia or Budweiser.
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