Insurgents in western Iraq town prove an elusive enemy for Marines -KR

[Rose Siding]

HAQLANIYAH, Iraq - The U.S. and Iraqi troops trudged through the narrow, dusty alleyways looking for an enemy that disappears like a ghost and hoping a rocket-propelled grenade would not come screaming from the rooftops. They squinted at graffiti calling for their execution, and tore down leaflets bragging about 20 Marines killed nearby last week.

With most of the fighting over after a large-scale invasion of the western Iraq town Friday, the troops in Haqlaniyah spent hours Sunday under a fiery sun looking for an adversary that often shoots and vanishes without a trace.

Their frustration mirrors that of units in much of western Iraq, where homebred Sunni Muslim insurgents - some angry about the downfall of secular dictator Saddam Hussein, others seeking the dream of a Sunni theocracy - have joined with foreign fighters coming across a porous desert border looking for the glory of international jihad.
...
Late in the morning, Sommers and his men stopped to speak with an elderly man and his son, Mohammed, an employee in Iraq's Ministry of Oil. The old man, who did not give his name, was busy warning about the dangers of the insurgency as Iraqi troops searched his son's truck.

There was a stack of cassette tapes. They popped one in and turned up the volume. A man's voice wailed: "The people must come to Jihad in Iraq. The Americans are here, come to Jihad."

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/12326749.htm

[alcibiades_mystery]

1. Jeez

"Those insurgents, they'll pay for what they did last week - it may not be tomorrow, but they'll pay," said Marine Private First Class Scotty Sanders, 20, of Woodstock, Ala. "That's why we're here."

The sheer madness of that statement seems lost on Private Sanders...

[barb162]

3. I thrink the madness is fighting against a freely elected Iraq

government. Those who want dictatorships, theocracies, etc., instead of a freely elected government by the people are the real sociopaths

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[High Plains]

5. Apparently some Iraqis and others disagree.

There are various aspects to this insurgency. In fact, I'd say there are at least two parallel insurgencies. You've got the Al Qaeda crazies, of which our little adventure is creating an apparently endless supply. Then there's the Sunnis, who are fighting for various reasons. Some probably want to return to the good old days of Saddam, some merely want to exert Sunni power, some are probably fighting for a mixture of ethnic and nationalist reasons. And we are undoubtedly generating a steady number of Iraqis who now want to fight us for the simplest of reasons: revenge.

Speaking of theocracries and freely elected governments, that may be just what we get in Iraq: a freely elected theocracy. Just a little irony the Bush people apparently didn't think of.

The only solution is an immediate American withdrawal. Watch the toleration for Zarqawi and his boys vanish. Watch the Shiites, Kurds, and Sunnis then either figure it out or fight it out. We created this mess, but the best thing we can do now is leave them to clean it up.

I don't think anyone over there is listening to the Bush administration talking points you echo so forcefully.

[barb162]

17. I agree with your first two paragraphs

I strongly object to that last comment about the Bush talking points. Hey, facts are facts are facts. When terrorists are active in any civilized society, that society has a tendency to fall apart economically, socially, culturally, etc. I think that is not a Bush talking point, but a talking point any good sociologist or historian would make. Sorry to burst your bubble on that, but thems the facts.

Of course the mess was created by Bush. Whether immediate American withdrawal is correct is unknown though I would like that from the standpoint of saving the lives of the American military and the continued draining of the US Treasury. After the last two years I would hate to see that country descend into a sharia style theocracy that shits all over women, denies civil rights and holds the people in a far worse bondage than Saddam. Because the people of Iraq already expressed their vote and will vote twice more in the next few months, perhaps the US military should stay there till the end of that second vote (Dec) or leave earlier when the Iraqis are trained to police and maintain order.

"the best thing we can do now is leave them to clean it up"
And MAYBE we should clean up the mess we made? And maybe Zarqawi wants to take that country over and kill every single elected official in the new government and it would be easier for him to do that if the US military weren't there? I would like to have seen the military out of there a long time back (and better never to have gone). I would want the Iraqis to have a stable, prosperous, peaceful and self-ruling country without a bunch of goddamned terrorists trying to destroy it for their own ends. I am not so sure what is "best" as you seem to be.

[Kraklen]

21. It is just plain Bush talking points.

And by "talking points" we mean bullshit.

"freely elected government" has nothing to do with the facts.

[barb162]

23. I saw people going to the polls and marking ballot boxes

which is a far more democratic set of acts than when there was one party Baathist candidates and 99.999999% voted one way.

There were more than 120 political parties that were authorized to participate in the last election, including the Communist party. So if that is BS with you, who cares?

[High Plains]

24. Bush talking points...

I don't think any reasonable person has good things to say about terrorism (and here I refer to attacks targeting civilians, not those targeting the various militaries involved), but suggesting if only those darned terrorists would go away and the Iraqis could have free elections (under the guns of an occupying power), Baghdad would turn into Westchester or Shaker Heights or something is precisely the Bush administration line.

As for immediate US withdrawal, I don't KNOW it is the best solution. Who can foresee the future? But it certainly seems that the presence of the US is the main aggravating factor in the violence. As I said above, get the US troops out and the Iraqis will settle this among themselves.

Maybe Zarqawi does want to take over the country. Fat chance, I say. You can disrupt via suicide car bomb, but it's hard to govern that way. You don't make a lot of friends by blowing the shit out of people, as the US has found out. With the removal of US forces, Zarqawi's boys will have lost their raison d'etre for being in Iraq and that Iraqis will get rid of them in short order.

Yes, ideally, one should clean up one's own messes. What I am suggesting is the continued presence of the US forces only aggravates the mess. We fucked up Iraq real good. And it's going to continue to be a bloody mess until we leave and for some time thereafter.

There's been a lot of concern for US casualties expressed on this board. I value all human life equally. If we are interested in saving lives, both Iraqi and American, we need to leave without further delay.

And for the health of the international system, the US needs to leave with its tail between its legs. Criminal conduct like that of the Bush administration's occupation of Iraq can not be rewarded.

[barb162]

26. This is simply a starting point for the Iraqis

and I never suggested anything different. I should not be confused with monkeyboy. To hold out some New England town hall voting as the epitome of republic style government perfection and then to knock it down that it isn't being perfectly attained is simply unfair and illogical when this country was under one party rule for decades. Heck, they are making progress in that they developed parties, voted, saw the results and now are dealing with the results before the next vote for the Constitution. I am not expecting miracles or perfection.

What is so bothersome about the suicide bombers and insurgents is they are not just targetting the US military but the civilian population where there are no US troops around. To me this means they just want to disrupt and terrorize the civilian population and to what end. What purpose other than to disrupt the new government?

[Zorra]

27. Yes. How can an election be considered free when the election was held

under the gun and direction of an occupying invader?

Especially considering the fact that the government of the invading country refuses, despite the consistent demands of citizenry, to allow its very own "subjects" use a transparent, verifiable balloting process in its own elections.

Couple that with the fact that the "leader" of the occupying nation, (along with every member of of his administration), plainly lied to the people they are supposed to represent, and the people of the entire world, in order to gain support for an unjustifiable invasion of a sovereign nation.

I agree. The only solution is immediate withdrawal. The Iraqis have absolutely no reason whatsoever to trust Bu*h and the PNAC and their motivations for invading and occupying Iraq, and have lots of reasons not to trust them. They'll keep fighting until the US invaders are gone or a US inflicted genocide occurs.

[Voltaire99]

8. Agreed in theory. Unfortunately, that's not the case...

...in Iraq, where a former CIA asset, Iyad Allawi, is serving as a puppet to Washington. As Seymour Hersh has shown, Allawi enjoyed the fruits of a "free" election rigged by the US and the UK in a manner to make even Floridians blush:

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/050725fa_fact

The occupation of Iraq and resistance thereto haven't occurred in a historical vacuum. This short illustrated timeline by Professor Juan Cole of Michigan sums up the last moves in a sickening endgame:

http://www.juancole.com/2005/08/fisking-war-on-terror-once-upon-time.html

[leftchick]

13. that Juan Cole link is excellent

that timeline is great. Even a moran could understand it.

[0007]

28. Unfortunately there are some who just don't get it!

Why are we in Iraq when the terrorists are in Saudi Arabia?


[tuckessee]

15. It's hard to have "a freely elected govt"

when a nation is occupied by over 100,000 uninvited foreign combat troops, tens of thousands of potential voters are locked away in gulags, press outlets have been shut down and certain candidates are backed by foreign dollars.

[barb162]

25. But here's data on what was happening right before the election

earlier this year. Lots of parties, lots of candidates....


Do you have a link in regard to "tens of thousands of potential voters are locked away in gulags"

----------------

"Parties and Candidates
More than 120 parties have so far been authorised to field candidates for the assembly. They are obliged to present a list of at least 12 candidates, and no more than 275. Every third name must be a woman's, to ensure that at least 25% of the seats in the assembly go to women.

The parties likely to figure prominently are the two Kurdish groupings, Kurdish Democratic Party and the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, which are already firmly established, the Shia-led Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, SCIRI, the Islamic al-Dawa, and the Iraqi National Congress, an exile group chaired by one-time US ally Ahmed Chalabi. There have been suggestion that Mr Chalabi may lead a Shia list including supporters of Moqtada al-Sadr.

The Communist party, which opposed the US-led invasion, may also feature.

On the whole, voters are expected to cast their ballot according to sectarian and ethnic divides. Shias, who are a majority in Iraq, are likely to back Shia parties, both religious and secular.

The Kurds, who have had virtual autonomy in the north for some years will in all probability back their already well-established parties. Sunni representation is seen as the main concern. Some of their parties have also said they plan to boycott the poll, including the influential Association of Muslim Scholars.

The potential lack of Sunni participation in the vote could have long-term repercussions for the legitimacy and stability of the government elected.

Individuals may also run. To do so they must file a 500-signature petition with the electoral commission. The chairman of this body said in mid-November that so far 126 of the 198 who had applied had been accepted.

Former senior Baathists are barred from both standing as individuals or on party lists, as are current members of the Iraqi armed forces, or any armed militias."
http://www.mapsofworld.com/elections/iraq-elections-2005.html
------------
Wasn't this better than one-party dictatorship rule?

[daleo]

18. Most are probably just resisting occupation

No matter what, people will resist foreign invaders and occupiers. It is just human nature.

[Kraklen]

20. LOL.

Or maybe since they remember that Saddam Hussein was a puppet for the U.S. they're not going to trust the new one.

[alcibiades_mystery]

2. Just to reply again, Knight Ridder is doing superlative reporting from the

war zone in Western Iraq. On par with any of the newspaper reporting coming out of Vietnam. In fact, it's much better than much of the early Vietnam reporting by greats such as Halberstam and Sheehan. Seriously, this is a hell of an article, and given straight, in the old school journalistic fashion. Top notch.

[Theduckno2]

6. I agree, thought it was well done.

The use of the word "guerrila" to describe the Sunni fighters strikes me a more accurate than "insurgent". I always figured the MSM stayed away from guerrila because it fosters a more favorable viewpoint towards the fighters.

[deadparrot]

7. last throes! losing steam!

lest throes! losing steam!

[bemildred]

9. Iraqi insurgents elude Marines

HAQLANIYAH, Iraq - The U.S. and Iraqi troops trudged through the narrow, dusty alleyways looking for an enemy that disappears like a ghost and hoping a rocket-propelled grenade would not come screaming from the rooftops. They squinted at graffiti calling for their execution, and tore down leaflets bragging about 20 Marines killed nearby last week.

---

"I know the difference between a foreign Arab fighter and an Iraqi, but when the fighter is Iraqi, I cannot tell who he is," Waheed said. "We cannot recognize the enemy because he dresses like a civilian and he drives in a civilian car. He looks like everyone else."

---

The doctor heals them, these guys give them shoes, another guy is the forward observer - it's like an assembly line," said Sommers, 34, of Augusta, Ga. "They know when we're coming and going. There's not much we can do." A few miles to the north was Haditha, the site of a bloody ambush that killed six Marines on Aug. 1 - including one whose corpse was reportedly videotaped by insurgents - and a powerful roadside bomb that killed 14 on Wednesday.

"Those insurgents, they'll pay for what they did last week - it may not be tomorrow, but they'll pay," said Marine Private First Class Scotty Sanders, 20, of Woodstock, Ala. "That's why we're here."

Knight-Ridder

[ixion]

10. shout out to 'psychokiller' Sanders for that glorious sentiment.

:puke:


Again, the pukes and their raging jarheads make it crystal clear that they know absolutely nothing about the History of Civilization.

[rodeodance]

11. and the last throes is around the corner.

[barb162]

19. well, that and the "deadenders" per Rumsfeld

Wasn't Rummy using that line way more than a year ago?

[Mika]

12. Conversely..

somewhere in Iraq..

"Those Americans, they'll pay for what they did last week - it may not be tomorrow, but they'll pay," said insurgent Muhammed Hadita, 20, of Falluja. "That's why we're here."


what goes around, comes around. :(

Thank you BushCrimeInc.

[bemildred]

14. What bothers me is that the US Military leadership seems to think

the same way. Their "strategy" is to try to bully the Iraqis into submission, which is wrong on so many levels that you don't know where to start explaining that it's wrong.

[barb162]

22. there's too much about it that reminds me of the vietnam

nightmare where the successive administrations simply wouldn't admit certain things and the military gets caught up (read: getting injured or killed) by the orders and games of the executive branch

[Roy]

16. What makes these people think...

That the will of agressive foreigners should be imposed on those folks.
they posed no threat to this country. Maybe if theit country is given back to them everyone will be safer and more secure.

snip
"In a formation of Iraqi troops behind Sommers, Sgt. Ahmed Waheed said he thought most insurgents had hidden their weapons and gone back to tending their gardens or herding sheep."
snip