Anti-Jewish feeling said to be rising in Greece October 16, 2003

[tlcandie]

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/350341.html

<snip>
Anti-Semitic invective has been
constant and escalating" in
Greece, Wiesenthal Center
official Shimon Samuels told
delegates to a Warsaw meeting
of the Organization for
Security and Cooperation in
Europe (OSCE).

"I encourage the Greek

authorities to look carefully at this ahead of
the Olympics as it threatens to extinguish the
ideals of the Olympic flame," Samuels told
Deutsche Presse-Agentur (dpa). Greece is
hosting next year's summer Olympics.
<snip>

[Jacobin]

1. In tandem with anti americanism by chance?

[Fight_n_back]

37. REad this

"This has continued with media articles
attacking Jews and Judaism as responsible for
all the ills of Greece," the Center claims.
"Most recently, even the Jewish faith itself
has been vilified and the loyalty of Greek
citizens of Jewish ancestry and identity has
been questioned."


Dissemble that as anti Zionist. Its Jew hating plain and simple. Some progressives have a problem with that.

[goforit]

2. Ahhhh....Sharon's own doing!!!!

No pity!!!

:nopity:

[foo_bar]

3. Greek Jews are responsible for Sharon?

Or is it all Jews that should be collectively punished?

[goforit]

6. Sharon is setting presidence in this world!

Now this should not have any relationship to Jewish people
in other countries, but if anybody sends money or support
whether via Lieberman or Pat Robertson to Sharon in Israel,
then they support the agressive slaughters of Sharon.

The Jewish State of Israel has chosen him to lead and therefore is
their responsibility.

The Americans(LOL!!stolen) have chosen Bush to lead, then it is their responsibility.

The US is not of ONE religious state like Israel. So it would be difficult to use religion as the main objective despite Bush claiming
that this is a Crusade.

Bottom line is I don't care what religion people are.....
when it comes to murder, it is just plain wrong!!!!

I would hope that "thou shalt not kill" is still in the Old Testament!!

[a_random_joel]

27. Cool

You just justified the invasion of Iraq! Way to go! Welcome to the PNAC my friend.

[drewb]

18. No, it's all Palestinians that should be collectively punished...

Sorry, sometimes I can't pass up an opening like that...

[abcdan]

4. Keep politics out of this

Why would you hold all jewish people (not just in Israel, but worldwide) accountable for the actions of the president of Israel? The jewish people, like any group of people do not deserve attacks or villification. There is nothing wrong with attacking the policies of Ariel Sharon, but when those attacks turn towards jews in general, that is wrong and at the least is deserving of pity.

[goforit]

7. I never said that!!!

I said Sharon sets the example!!!!

He should take the responsibility of placing Jewish people in jeopardy!

I agree that you should not vilify all Jewish people.
But I have not seen or heard one Jewish leader yet denounce the actions of Sharon.

Where are the Jewish people stepping up for these atrocities?

[foo_bar]

11. the holocaust revisited

But I have not seen or heard one Jewish leader yet denounce the actions of Sharon.

That's a reactionary argument, to put it euphemistically.

But assuming every Jewish leader (including Israel's opposition parties, who condemn Sharon on a daily basis) tacitly supported the Likud regime, how would that justify collective punishment against the Jews?

To be fair, I often see the same argument lobbied against Islam ("where were the moderate clerics condemning 9/11?") as a pretext to extermination. The main difference is, they wear the conservative label with pride.

Where are the Jewish people stepping up for these atrocities?

Rabbi Lerner is one such example, but he maintained his Jewish identity, rendering him unfit for service to the lip-service wing of the left.

<http://www.thenation.com/capitalgames/index.mhtml?bid=3&pid=385>

[abcdan]

13. Keep politics out of this - part II

I understand that you are angry with Sharon and his policies. I understand that you are angry that no Jewish leader that you have heard has denounced Sharon's actions. I understand that you are angry with Israelis for electing Sharon into office. But the article is not about these things. It's about "newspaper caricatures using Holocaust imagery to Nazify the Jews" and "articles attacking Jews and Judaism as responsible for all the ills of Greece". Do you believe that Jews and Judaism are responsible for the ills of Greece? If not, do you believe that these types of statements, particularly over time, can cause harm to innocent people? If so, don't any and all innocent people who are harmed deserve our pity?

[Tinoire]

20. I don't trust a d--n word coming from the Simon Wiesenthal Center

anymore.

Their entire idea seems to be that everyone needs to turn a blind eye to the horrors against the Palestinians and stand silent in the face of evil and injustice for fear of being called anti-Semitic.

Had Simon Wiesenthal Center issued even a SINGLE word of condemnation for the horrors taking place in the occupied territories, they'd still have some credibility but they didn't- all they care about is that no compararisons be made between Sharon and Hitler or the Israelis and the Nazis.


Everyone already knows that not all the Germans were Nazis but ALL the Germans were made to pay the price and for decades vilified and demonized. Let's hope the same thing doesn't happen to Israelis and Jews. If you don't like all Jews being blamed for what Sharon is doing, and I agree that it is wrong to blame everyone, then maybe it's time for Israelis and Jews to change that perception by speaking out LOUD instead of letting Simon Wiesenthal Center wail about how the globalization and antiwar marches are anti-Semitic and maybe it's time for Jews outside Israel to start telling Sharon that he does NOT speak for or represent all Jewry instead of writing fat checks to his Save Israel fund.

People can not stand silently as atrocities are committed in their name and not expect to not be blamed.

This is beginning to change because there is a nascent, burgeoning opposition movement but it's not getting much press nor is it getting enough support. As the movement gets louder the Simon Wiesenthal Center will stop having so much to complain about and hopefully the voice of the Jewish people will be represented by more balanced groups such as Jews for Justice or Gush Shalom who won't label every act of speaking up for justice as an act of Anti-Semitism.

Does Anti-Semitism exist? You betcha! It exists as much as racism and like racism will never really go away. But its growth is mitigated, totally shunted when justice is implemented and people are seen/treated as equals.

Remember- they don't hate us for our freedoms or Western Ideals- they hate us for plundering their wealth, exploiting them, bullying sovereign nations and displaying an unforgivable arrogance that "It's my way or the high-way".

[goforit]

39. WOW!!!!..........That was well said!

And thankyou for the additional detail I didn't know!

[tlcandie]

42. Once again you come through Tinoire!

:bounce:

[rini]

44. Is this a threat?

[morebunk]

5. Perhaps they see clearly what everyone else is shutting their eyes to?

It's not anti-Semitic to be against Israeli terrorist like Sharon.

[goforit]

8. Why thank you!!!..............Thats exactly what I agree upon.

Sharon and Bush and Blair are the Axis of Evil.

[gauguin57]

9. have they been ...

... hanging around with Mel Gibson?

[goforit]

40. LOL!!!!..........Too funny!!!

:bounce:

[leesa]

10. Bullshit! It's anti-Israeli government. Anti-Sharon the Butcher

[foo_bar]

12. syllogisms

"This has continued with media articles
attacking Jews and Judaism as responsible for
all the ills of Greece," the Center claims.

Sharon is Jewish.
All Jews are not Sharon.

Donald Rumsfeld is Christian (I assume).
All Christians are not the Secretary of Defense.

The Taliban is Muslim.
All Muslims are not the Taliban.

All ants are insects.
All insects are not ants.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cassandra]

23. Prove that

"You can't even post a link about Jews against Sharon here without running an 85% chance of having the thread locked! You can barely suggest that Sharon is incarnate evil without having the wrath of I/P apologists fall on you with their special rules designed to prevent just such criticism."
and as for this:
" Sharon either speaks for world Jewry or he doesn't- and if he doesn't I want to start hearing a hell of a lot more opposition to him instead of seeing the few Jews and Israelis who dare speak out be vilified and demonized. "
How dare you even suggest that? I'm assuming this is just total IGNORANCE. What on earth would make you think that Sharon speaks for world Jewry (or that anyone does)? That's collective guilt in the extreme. He's not the Pope, he's not a religious leader, he's just a politician. I'm stil waiting to hear you roundly condemn the Pope's tepid response to child-molesing priests, a far easier moral call. No one here is vilified for speaking out against Sharon. Those of us who are pro-Israel are hoping that the day soon comes when Israelis feel comfortable enough about their security, or sick enough of Sharon, that they vote him out of office.
edit: spelling

[Tinoire]

25. And until then, close your eyes to everything he does right?

Those of us who are pro-Israel are hoping that the day soon comes when Israelis feel comfortable enough about their security, or sick enough of Sharon, that they vote him out of office.

Once he's done all the killing necessary to make Israel secure, they you can vote him out of office and wail about what an evil man he was but for right now it's 'alas, an unfortunate necessity' right? The man has got you in an evil Catch-22 by preying on people's fears of the very Anti-Semitism he's bent on fuelling.

The author of the following article is, by the way, Jewish.

----

Sharon's best weapon

Anti-semitism sustains Israel's brutal leader - the fight against it must be reclaimed

Naomi Klein
Thursday April 25, 2002
The Guardian

<snip>

For Ariel Sharon, it is the fear of anti-semitism, both real and imagined, that is the weapon. Mr Sharon likes to say that he stands up to terrorists to show he is not afraid. In fact, his policies are driven by fear. His great talent is that he fully understands the depths of Jewish fear of another Holocaust. He knows how to draw parallels between Jewish anxieties about anti-semitism and American fears of terrorism, and he is an expert at harnessing all of it for his political ends.

<snip>

The primary and familiar fear that Sharon draws on, the one that allows him to disguise all aggressive actions as defensive ones, is the fear that Israel's neighbours want to drive the Jews into the sea. The secondary fear Sharon manipulates is the fear among Jews in the diaspora that they will eventually be driven to seek a safe haven in Israel. This leads millions of Jews around the world, many of them sickened by Israeli aggression, to shut up and send their cheques, a down-payment on future sanctuary.

<snip>

Jews outside Israel now find themselves in a tightening vice: the actions of the country that was supposed to ensure their future safety are making them less safe right now. Sharon is deliberately erasing distinctions between the terms "Jew" and "Israeli", claiming he is fighting not for Israeli territory but for the survival of the Jewish people. When anti-semitism rises at least partly as a result of his actions, it is Sharon who is positioned once again to collect the political dividends.

It works. Most Jews are so frightened that they are now willing to do anything to defend Israeli policies. So at my neighbourhood synagogue, where the humble facade was badly scarred by a suspicious fire recently, the sign on the door doesn't say, "Thanks for nothing, Sharon." It says, "Support Israel - now more than ever."

<snip but definitely a must read>


http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,690226,00.html

+++++

And for the locked threads? Here's a prime example from a few days ago: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=534364

because heaven forbid people discuss groups such as the following:

Shalom and Welcome to the Jewish Peace Fellowship - http://www.jewishpeacefellowship.org
Founded by Rabbis in 1941. Supports conscientious objectors.

Tikkun Magazine - http://www.tikkun.org/
Pacifist voices of conscience and reason, edited by Rabbi Michael Lerner in San Francisco.

Yesh Gvul - http://www.yesh-gvul.org/english.html
The movement for soldiers of the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) refusing to serve in the Occupied Territories.

Gush Shalom - http://www.gush-shalom.org/english/index.html
The website of the prominent Israeli peace movement features thought-provoking articles by its dissident director, Uri Avnery.

PEACE NOW! - http://www.peacenow.org.il/English.asp
Israeli pacifists for Palestinian self-determination within 1967 borders.

Not In My Name: Taking Action for a Just Peace in Israel and Palestine - http://www.nimn.org
NIMN, based on their belief in Judaism, oppose "Israeli Government brutality against Palestinians".

Junity - Jewish Unity for a Just Peace - http://www.junity.org/
Jewish peace groups which agree on ending abuses of Palestinian human rights and Israel's self-destructive settlement policy.

B'tselem - http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/index.asp
The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, reports on Israeli abuses such as torture, shootings, home demolitions, and settler violence.

Jewish Voice For Peace (SF Bay Area) - http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org
This SF Bay Area grassroots organization is dedicated to the rights of Jews, Palestinians, and all peoples in the Middle East. They believe conflict won't end until Israel removes settlements. Site includes petition, listserver, resources, media.

Why do they hate US? by Stephen Shalom - http://www.zmag.org/shalomhate.htm
Time-line of US interventions in the Middle East from 1948.

Open Tent Middle East Coalition - http://www.opentent.org
Arab and Jewish groups of mutual goodwill. California-based.

The 94 Percent Solution: A Matrix of Control (Middle East Report) - http://www.merip.org/mer/mer216/216_halper.html
Jeff Halper, director of the Campaign Against House Demolitions, explains how the chicanery of apartheid chokes off Palestinian life in myriad ways.

oznik.com: news headlines - http://oznik.com
A small I/P resistance news-service publishes reports from Palestine under IDF occupation, with the motto "We are all Palestinian Refugees".

Building Settlements, Killing Peace (Antiwar.com) - http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/h052601.html
Ran HaCohen writes "The Settlements are the Occupation" and "The Fallacy Industry".

Jews NOT Zionists - Torah-true Jews against Zionism - http://www.jewsnotzionists.org /
"Any form of Zionism is heresy from the Torah viewpoint and the so-called 'State of Israel' is illegitimate". Menu includes links and quotes to Anti-Zionist Jewish organizations and statements, and the wisdom of Judaism on the Middle East Quandary.

Australian Jewish Democratic Society - http://www.ajds.org.au
"Committed to Peace and Social Justice, Reconciliation between Nations and Peoples, and Nuclear Disarmament". Contents include News, Mid East Conflict, Library, Peace Links, Readers' Forum, Newsletters, and Activities.

Tom Segev's "One Palestine, Complete" Book Review - http://www.salon.com/books/int/2001/12/08/palestine
Segev wrote in "One Palestine, Complete" how the British Mandate favored Zionism. In this interview he sees an evolution of Israeli willingness to accept responsibility for the Palestinian tragedy.

Noam Chomsky Lecture at MIT on Mideast Crises, Dec 14, 2000 - http://www.media.mit.edu/~nitin/mideast/chomsky_lecture.html
One of America's most brilliant intellectuals portrays two rogue states against the world - the US and Israel.

"Israel Isn't David . . . It's Goliath" - http://www.progressive.org/mr0701.html
Matthew Rothschild of The Progressive magazine interviews Irena Klepfisz of The Jewish Women's Committee to End the Occupation

Right livelihood awards - http://www.rightlivelihood.se/recip1987_5.html
Israeli scientist Mordechai Vanunu, kidnapped by Mossad abroad and life-sentenced to solitary confinement for revealing that Israel has nuclear warheads, is commemorated here for his courage and sacrifice.

Matzpun = Hebrew for Conscience - http://www.matzpun.com
"The authors of this appeal are Jews whose families have been victims of racism and genocide, and who feel they cannot remain silent." They appeal to the world to boycott Israeli goods and leisure travel.

Taayush - http://minerva.tau.ac.il/~alon/taayush.html
Food convoys to the territories, articles.

Neturei Karta - http://www.netureikarta.org/
Orthodox Jews who condemn Zionism and the brutal treatment of the Palestinians as a heresy and violation of the Torah.

Zionism in the Age of the Dictators, by Lenni Brenner. - http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/index.htm
Full-length, on-line history book with details of political infighting, including how and why Zionists fostered Hitler as a "godsend" to force the creation of the Jewish state, whatever the cost. Bibliography.

Writings of Israel Shamir - http://www.israelshamir.net/
Apartheid dissolves in this brilliant journalist's lyric vitriol. His articles, bio and links to friends and adversaries are found on his page.

Press Freedom Heroes: Amira Hass (Haaretz) - http://www.freemedia.at/IPIReport2.00/22Hass.htm
This dissident Israeli journalist reports from the Gaza Strip and Ramallah, where she has taken up residence.

SF Jewish Film Festival - Al-Nakba - http://www.sfjff.org/sfjff18/programs/p0722b.html
The Palestinian Catastrophe 1948, a documentary.

Nathan Weinstock: Zionism - False Messiah - http://www.marxists.de/middleast/weinstock/index.htm
This on-line book continues the analytical tradition of Karl Marx' anti-nationalist and anti-colonialist view of The Jewish Question.

Closure and Apartheid: Seven Years of "Peace" through Separation, by Allegra Pacheco - http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/pachec1.htm
Allegra Pacheco, an Israeli human rights attorney, noted for prosecuting the first Israeli torture trial, describes how the closure of the West Bank and Gaza since 1993 is in violation of international law, and an extreme hardship for the people.

MidEastFacts Select author index - http://www.mideastfacts.com/index_author.html
Articles by over 100 prominent anti-Zionist authors, of whom about one-third are Israeli.

Securing Occupation: The Real Meaning of The Wye Memorandum - http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/id66.htm
Norman Finkelstein, author of "The Holocaust Industry", analyzes how Israel expels the indigenous population in defiance of the UN.

Israel Shamir Archive - http://shamir.mediamonitors.net/index.html
Palestine is not a dead object, she is a living country. Palestinians are her soul.

Jewish Opposition to Zionism - http://codoh.com/zionweb/ziondark/zionoppdex.html
Historical documents showing persistent Jewish support for pluralistic democracy rather than segregation.

Rodfei Shalom - Jewish Peacemakers Delegation to Israel/Palestine - http://www.geocities.com/jewishpeacemakers/index.html
"Olive Tree Summer 2001" was a delegation of Jews from North America and the world to Israel / Palestine to participate in nonviolent protest.

Jewish Bulletin: Israeli who protects Palestinians from IDF's bullets speaks here (November 09, 2001) - http://www.jewishsf.com/bk011109/eb20.shtml
Liad Kantorowicz, 23-year-old Israeli-American activist, says Israelis feel victimized while they are the ones victimizing Palestinians, and works against apartheid to make Israel a better place to be from.

Palestine: What Americans need to Know -- but probably won't be told -- to Understand Palestinian Rage - http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/palestine/eduardoCohen.html
Eduardo Cohen of KPFA sees the depth of Israeli racism and repression in Palestine, and of incomprehension and censorship on the subject when he returns.

Felicia Langer - A portrait. Al Ahram Weekly - http://www.ahram.org.eg/weekly/1998/402/pal2.htm
Ostracised and repeatedly threatened with death at the hands of her own people, lawyer Felicia Langer has not flinched since she adopted the Palestinian cause.

Build Palestinian Confidence in What? (IHT) - http://www.iht.com/articles/26300.htm
Henry Siegman of the Foreign Relations Council, former executive of the American Jewish Congress, points out that Israel has not offered peace, but only continued occupation.

A Spokesman For Justice: A Tribute to Rabbi Elmer Berger - http://www.washington-report.org/Washington-Report_org/www/backissues/1096/9610012.htm
by Grace Halsell. Founder of American Jewish Alternatives to Zionism (AJAZ), believer in core values of Judaism and democracy which Zionism tramples on.

Jeff Halper: Simply look at the maps - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JewishPeaceNews/message/400
Israeli anthropology professor shows how Barak's "best offer" makes geographical shreds of Palestine.

Like Father, Like Son: A Tribute to Moshe and Yehudi Menuhin, by Grace Halsell - http://www.washington-report.org/Washington-Report_org/www/backissues/0796/9607018.htm
"Jews should be Jews, not Nazis" - Moshe Menuhin on Israeli oppression of Palestinians.

The Jews Are Not A Race! - http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/7891/notrace.html
Alfred Lilienthal debunks the Hebrew descent of European converts to Judaism.

Benjamin Freedman - A Jewish Defector Warns America - http://www.themodernreligion.com/jihad/freedman.html
The famous 1961 speech by this New York businessman exposes "Zionist control of the US Government," including the plot to push the US into WWI in order to annex Palestine, thereby sowing seeds of Nazism and Communism.

Palestine Media Watch - http://www.pmwatch.org/pmw/links/jewishorganizations.html
List of Pro-Palestinian Rights Jewish Organizations.

Gideon Levy: Like the old days in South Africa - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JewishPeaceNews/message/773
Raymond Louw, editor who fought apartheid in South Africa, finds Israel even worse, because it aims at expelling the indigenous oppressed.

"The Second half of 48" - The Sharon-Ya'alon Plan (by Tanya Reinhart) - http://www.mediamonitors.net/tanya8.html
How Alon became Ya'alon - Oslo as a tool to "finish the job" of liquidating the people of Palestine.

Albert Einstein and Martin Buber Quotes - http://www.aai-us.org/main.html
Einstein: "I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish State." Buber: "our murderous sickness of causeless hatred is bound to bring complete ruin upon us. Only then will our land realize how great was our responsibility to those Arab refugees in whose towns we settled."

Amy and the Jews - http://courant.ctnow.com/news/special/ne/amy_0715.stm
Amy Pagnozzi, the Hartford Courant's spunky columnist, plunges into a media firefight.

WRMEA: If All Rabbis Were Like Arik Ascherman, Middle East Peace Would Be Attainable - http://www.wrmea.com/archives/october01/0110015.html
Rabbi Ascherman of Rabbis for Human Rights actively protests the demolition of Palestinian homes, and admits the right of return of refugees to a secular democratic state.

An Unconditional Withdrawal from the Territories is Urgently Needed (lemonde/zmag) - http://www.zmag.org/content/Mideast/ayalonwithdr.cfm
Ami Ayalon, chief of Israeli security Shin Bet 1996-2000 , places blame for violence on Israel and calls for withdrawal and acceptance of a contiguous Palestinian state.

Jews Speak Out Against the Occupation - http://www.cam.org/~rsilver/jewspeakout.htm
Pacifist, dissident Montreal organization's call on Jews to stand up and demand an end to war and apartheid, with list of signers.

The Bible Unearthed (rense.com) - http://www.rense.com/general18/bible.htm
Larry Saltzman, a horticulturalist, actively opposed the occupation upon Israel's wanton destruction of orchards. He reports on a new archaelogical consensus that undermines Zionism: ancient Israel was Canaanite, not Hebrew.

Muhammad's Killer - http://www.mediamonitors.net/netagolan1.html
Chatting with a stranger, activist Neta Golan discovers the young soldier who gunned down her young Arab friend in cold blood.

In Memoriam, Israel Shahak. Obituary by Norton Mezvinsky (WRMEA) - http://www.wrmea.com/archives/october01/0110071.html
Eulogizes a man of courage and conviction, born in a Polish ghetto, died in Jerusalem, who blazed a scholarly trail with radical writings on the reactionary character of Zionism and Talmudic Judaism.

Interviews in Occupied Territory. - http://www.occupied.org
Mainly audio - video dialogue around demolished houses in Hebron.

With Jews Like These... - http://masada2000.org/selfhate.html
Denouncing Jews who are active in the peace movement, or who question Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, as self-hating enemies of the state.

Siege of the Innocent by Rachelle Marshall - http://www.koutayba.com/palestine/siege.html
A Jewish home in Palestine built upon bayonets and oppression is not worth having. Rabbi Judah Magnes, letter to Chaim Weizmann, 1929.

Independent News: British Jews at odds after rabbi criticises Israel - http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=101898
A prominent liberal, Rabbi Dr David Goldberg, provoked consternation by describing Israel as the "last colonial power in the world" and "a golden calf."

South African Jews Polarized Over Israel (washingtonpost.com) - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A63012-2001Dec18.html
Anti-Racism Leaders Equate Country's Treatment of Palestinians to Apartheid.

Yahoo Groups : JewishPeaceNews - http://www.egroups.com/group/JewishPeaceNews
This public news list on the Middle East Conflict and US intervention posts current news and comment pieces, moderated by pro-Palestine American Jews.

Victor Ostrovsky - http://www2.southwind.net/~amfirst/ostrovsk.htm
A former Mossad spy talks about Israel's behind the scenes influence on the U. S.

On the Palestinian Right of Return - http://tari.org/marc_Ellis.htm
This Essay by Marc Ellis is "A Jewish Meditation on History, Rights and Return".

Yahoo! Groups : al-awda-unity - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/al-awda-unity
Jewish activism for Middle East justice.

Ariga: from the Intersection of Three Continents since 1995 - http://ariga.com
Israeli e-zine linking to Human Rights Groups, Rabin's Last Speech, historic documents, Jewish-Arab Dialogue, Non-supremacist Religious Zionism, News from Ha'aretz, Dukium - the Negev Coexistence Forum, Shalom/Salaam/Welcome Peace Links, Magazines Supporting Peace, Stop the 911 War.

Jews against the Occupation - New York City - http://www.angelcities.com/members/jato
Activism, events, resources, discussion board.

[foo_bar]

32. filibuster isn't debate

[Resistance]

43. what an awesome collection of links Tinoire

I had to bookmark your post for the references! Thanks.

[foo_bar]

24. collective guilt, III

How many Jews are speaking out against Sharon, fighting him and vilifying him as incarnate evil?

Probably not the incarnate evil thing, since Jews don't go for Satan imagery. In terms of objective destruction of life, Sharon's implicated murders (as a General) are similar to Bush's record as a governor, or any year of Arafat's reign. Of course calling Saddam Hussein "evil incarnate" would be roundly condemned as theocratic exaggeration. All that said, Jews like Rabbi Lerner speak out, but are silenced by the very same "I'm not an anti-Semite, but..." crowd.

You can barely suggest that Sharon is incarnate evil without having the wrath of I/P apologists fall on you

Perhaps the insistence on "incarnate evil" smacks of religious obsession. Certainly the incarnate part.

Sharon either speaks for world Jewry or he doesn't

He's the prime minister of Israel, not "chief elder of Zion". This isn't about Israel, it's about collectively punishing the Jews for the crimes of an Israeli regime, coincidentally in the same places Jews were rounded up a generation ago.

[Tinoire]

30. Silly silly me!

I keep forgetting that Sharon is doing this on his absolute own, with no help or encouragement from the Diaspora. I keep forgetting all the resounding condemnation from oprganizations such as AIPAC and ZOA and American Friends of the Likud who are begging Sharon to stop it and shut up and silly me, I keep forgetting all the money flowing from AIPAC coffers to US politicians to ensure that Sharon is protected as he pursues the vision of Greater Israel.

Sheesh. How are you talking to. Go spend a little time right here in River City in the I/P forum and dare tell me that again with a straight face.

All that said, Jews like Rabbi Lerner speak out, but are silenced by the very same "I'm not an anti-Semite, but..." crowd.

Bah! The only people at this forum silencing Rabbi Lerner is the pro-Israeli crowd in I/P that has already decided that he's a kook, off his rocker, who is mis-understanding the intricacies of this conflict and needs a history lesson. The very people you accuse of silencing him are the ones quoting him and spreading his message.

I already spent 3 years beating my head against a wall in I/P and I recognize certain styles from a mile away.

When you start quoting and lauding Michael Lerner and Jews for Peace, I'll be happy to talk to you because then we'll be on the same side because Michael Lerner has already stated most of what I said above but Lerner is unpalatable to those apologizing for the unfortunate necessity of what Sharon is doing while all the while wishing he'd just hurry it up so everyone can suddenly say "but we were against him the entire time".

Evil incarnate now denotes religious obsession? How far do you have to grasp and how many straws?

[foo_bar]

31. say what you mean

Evil incarnate now denotes religious obsession? How far do you have to grasp and how many straws?

Catholicism to be precise, by the Latin "incarnatio", to make flesh. Words mean things, and calling a human being "evil made flesh" is a theological statement. qed.

I keep forgetting all the resounding condemnation from oprganizations such as AIPAC and ZOA and American Friends of the Likud who are begging Sharon to stop it and shut up and silly me, I keep forgetting all the money flowing from AIPAC coffers to US politicians to ensure that Sharon is protected as he pursues the vision of Greater Israel.

Friends of Likud are a subset of Jewish people.
Taliban is a subset of Islam.
Ted Bundy is a subset of caucasians.

To recap:
All members of Likud are Jewish.
All Jews are not members of Likud.

[Tinoire]

41. Then speal out ! Say SO! Go down to I/P and start saying so!

Instead of letting a "small group" do all the speaking.

Until then it looks like you want it both ways.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[a_random_joel]

28. Booyah!!

Nothing like a little logic to counter ignorance, fearmongering and bigotry.

[FlemingsGhost]

14. This post has been self-censored...

Lest I be accused of being "anti-semitic."

When does the guilt-trip end, and criticism is fairly acknowledged?

[foo_bar]

15. when does the blood libel trip end

and criticism of neo-nazism fairly acknowledged?

Greek Jews didn't "bring this on themselves" by not assassinating Sharon.

[FlemingsGhost]

16. LOL... thanks for proving my point.

Shalom.

[foo_bar]

17. which point?

Yasou.

[a_random_joel]

29. Which guilt trip?

The guilt trip that says not all Jews approve of Sharon's policies, and therefore they should not be harassed, murdered, slandered or intimidated?

Or the guilt trip that says all Jews should suffer because of a few bad apples?

[Lurking Dem]

19. This makes 2 threads in one day

urging me to update my ignore list.

When people criticize a race for all the ills of the world it is racist. It is NOT anti-Zionism. It is NOT anti-Likud. It is NOT anti-Sharon. It is anti-Semitism.

[Isere]

21. Thank you "Lurking"

"When people criticize a race for all the ills of the world it is racist. It is NOT anti-Zionism. It is NOT anti-Likud. It is NOT anti-Sharon. It is anti-Semitism."

Another tiresome, predictable thread at DU...
No need to say more.

[Jim Sagle]

35. Thank you for telling it like it is.

:yourock:

[Forkboy]

26. "extinguish the ideals of the Olympic flame,"

Like giving China the Olympics didn't already do that.

[Muddleoftheroad]

34. Palestinian Terrorists did it in 1972

They beat everybody.

[Jim Sagle]

36. Thank you, Muddle.

The world seems a hideous place some times (like right now, on this thread). Your posts make it easier to bear. :yourock:

[rini]

45. As much as giving

Arafat the Nobel Peace Prize. Arafat and peace in the same sentence is an oxymoron. Giving a known murderer a peace prize is as ridiculous as giving a Mafia boss citizen of the year!

So do we blame all Arabs for having an Arafat, a bin ladin, a Housein, a Hassan, a Quidaffie ad infinitum, as part of their ethnic group? Not unless you are a Nazi you don't.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ozone_man]

46. I think that I have drawn the same parallel.

--snip--

In the report, the Wiesenthal Center details
articles in the Greek press likening the
actions of Israelis toward Palestinians to Nazi
Germany's World War II genocide against
European Jews. The report notes numerous
examples of Greek "newspaper caricatures using
Holocaust imagery to Nazify the Jews".

--snip--

Abused children grow up to emulate their parents. But, it's alot more complicated than that, so another thread.

[TahitiNut]

47. I'm locking this thread.

The MESSAGE BOARD RULES state, in part:

Due to continuing problems, discussion of Israeli/Palestinian issues is limited to the Israeli/Palestinian Affairs forum, and is governed by a special set of rules which are available in that forum. If a discussion is primarily about U.S. policy in Israeli/Palestinian affairs, it is still allowed in other forums. Discussion of other Middle East issues is also allowed. If a thread is on a different topic, but later goes off-topic and becomes a discussion of Israeli/Palestinian issues, the moderators may move the thread to the Foreign Affairs/National Security forum.

The Rules also say, in part:

Please note that, strictly speaking, sweeping statements about entire groups of fellow progressives are not considered personal attacks. However, they are often inflammatory and counterproductive and the moderators have broad discretion to remove such posts in the interests of keeping the peace on the message board.

There is a difference between forceful advocacy for a particular issue (which is allowed), and personally attacking people (which is forbidden). If you can't tell the difference, you are likely to get into trouble here.

Rather than discuss the specifics of the article, particular to the political conditions in Greece, too many have apparently seen fit to bring forth arguments and personal issues best left in the Israeli/Palestinian Affairs forum -- and extend those intrapersonal conflicts to the moderators, generating over a dozen alerts from this one thread alone.

Thank you for your understanding and cooperation,
TahitiNut - DU moderator