Evidence of female circumcision surfaces in Iraq

[ECH1969]

KIRKUK, IRAQ - Set on an arid plain southeast of Kirkuk, Hasira looks like a place forsaken by time. Sheep amble past mud-brick houses and the odd sickly palm tree shades children's games. There is no electricity.

Yet along with 39 other villages in this region that Iraq's Kurds have named Germian (meaning hot place), Hasira and its people have become noted for presenting the first statistical evidence in Iraq of the existence of female circumcision, or female genital mutilation (FGM), as critics call it.

"We knew Germian was one of the areas most affected by the practice," says Thomas von der Osten-Sacken, director of a German nongovernmental organization called WADI, which has been based in Iraq for more than a decade. Of the 1,554 women and girls over 10 years old interviewed by WADI's local medical team, 907, or more than 60 percent, said they had undergone the operation.

Women in Hasira and the surrounding villages are reluctant to talk about the practice. After long negotiation, Trifa Rashid Abdulkerim agrees to answer some questions. A farmer's wife from the village of Milkhasim, she says she learned circumcision techniques from her neighbor and took over when she stopped. "June is the best time of the year," she says, "and the best age for patients is anywhere between 3 and 8."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0810/p06s01-woiq.htm

[VegasWolf]

1. Circumcision makes it sound benign. Why don't they call it by its

true name, mutilation?

[whatever4]

24. Because the ills of women are...dirty And, we're supposed to suffer

That's what I feel it is, in the end, "female" suffering, even from unnatural, brutal and unnecessary practices is... not as important.

Our pain is not as important. And it never will be.

When I was active duty military, I had three children. As an active duty women, I was not entitled to go off base to a civilian facility, as the wives of active duty men were allowed.

In the military hospital, and epidural was not an option. It was either natural birth, with Stadol (a mild muscle relaxer)...or c section.

I gave birth to a 10 pound 6 ounce baby. With forceps. No anesthetic. Doctor said, they were surprised, thought he was maybe 9 pounds or so.

I am a 5 foot 4 inch woman. They thought it was amusing I gave birth to such a large baby. I received no special treatment at all. Even after shaking and almost passing out afterward.

I am very healthy and strong. After the birth of my third child, induced early and not as large, I walked downstairs twenty minutes later. Unfortunately I smoked, however lightly, and went to have a cigarette. This is not a wimpy woman telling you this story. I truly am one that got up and walked off minutes after birth. I am telling you our health needs, in general, are not only ignored, they are fairly well laughed off. By all.

American military hospital, active duty women. Normal medicine is silly, if it's just to provide us pain relief. Tip of the iceberg in mentality, this one small example. The problem is, we just aren't as human as the rest of you, us women. Our issues are...silly...to you.

And if it's that way here...for the most liberated of women, how do you think it is in the rest of the world?

Just like this. Just cut it off. They don't need it anyway; it's dirty.

[whatever4]

26. But women throughout the world don't need political asylum

Because it just hurts a little...to be a woman

Not like we're ever targeted and subjected to different laws or medicines because of our gender. oh no.

It just "happens" sometimes.

Depending on where you're born.

But women don't deserves any special treatment for it.

And heck, a lot of them get what they deserve, the sluts, right BushCo? Damn baby-killing bitches...STOP ABORTION

Hate. Just hate. I am not constructive at this point, sorry.

[phylny]

61. When did you have your children?

I'm surprised that you had no help with pain. My regular OB got his training in the Army (Germany) and knew (19 & 16 years ago) how to place paracervical and pudendal blocks. I had a much easier time giving birth than I would have due to the training he credits receiving while on active duty.

[whatever4]

63. Early 90's, on a base in the Midwest

yes, it sounds nuts that an active duty woman would not have access to the same standard medicines and procedures that a civilian, active-duty DEPENDENT would be allowed. But, that is exactly how it was. There was talk of changing it, later, I heard, but I don't know if they ever got around to it.

Now, to be completely honest, some military women got epidurals. Or so I was told. When I asked the doctor about it, I was told, if you had your baby during the day, when the tecks were working, and if it was on a day the right one was on duty, and IF they had the time, it might be possible to get one. Period. And that was ALL, absolutely nothing else was available. I was actually laughed at for it. Epidural? He says, I've found that makes it more difficult for women to deliver, he says, he doesn't like doing them.

Now, at my size, with that size baby...wasn't I exactly the type of woman they made epidurals for??? I think so. But they, they did a sonogram the day before I delivered, and said he was 8 and a half, maybe 9 pounds. I had normal blood sugar levels. He was 10 pounds 6 ounces. Goes without saying, his father is a rather tall individual. And, it wasn't as if the doctor didn't SEE the father; he's rather hard to miss.

But in all reality, my thoughts need to be taken with a grain of salt, because I can't possibly be in my right mind...because I had a third child at that same hospital barely more than a year later. Even I thought that wasn't very bright :) But a blessing, always.

I also remember clearly, you'll LOVE this, a male nurse telling me, offhandedly, that another female nurse told him she thought pregnancy was an intentional injury. Looking at me when he said it. As if it were some kind of an issue of an active duty woman having babies. Having a family. Something men were free to do, but as a women, missing ANY amount of work (4-6 weeks was standard, I got lucky and got 6 weeks, and they changed it back down to 4 before I separated, I learned) was a "problem". Even though my position was working with computers; not exactly out of work due to the pregnancy. But he saw fit to say this to an active duty woman in uniform 8 months gone. "My friend thinks pregnancy is an intentional injury"

I told him...tell her to tell THAT to her mother.

And he said "What??!!" The tone was so funny, I had the feeling it was actually his words, and so he heard me say his mother. The offended tone in his voice said it all. I laughed. I repeated it, "Tell HER to tell that to her mother, ha" It was good. I was glad it was ME he'd said that to, and not some young impressionable troop who might have actually felt badly, felt responsible for...being married and having a baby.

Ashamed. As if.

I was so glad I was the one he ran into on the elevator (at the hospital, coming down from the OB floor no less) to give that piece of "intentional injury" advice. Took him down a peg. I can only hope it helped some other gal exposed to his "wisdom".

Tip of the iceberg, I'm just saying, I've been there. Makes me rant. For the most liberated of us, life is insulting. For those less strong, more typical, more "feminine" if you will, life is FAR more ugly. I've had advantages other women never had, and if it can get to me...that's all I can say. I am my own example, but some of my stories are surrealistic, in the light of day. That's the problem as I see it; lack of sight. I'm just typical enough to know it's a pervasive problem, the double standards and denial of reality we deal with in our lives. And in the end, it most certainly hurts men too. Unfortunately, they don't understand the problems well enough to get past blaming women for our issues.

Women in other countries? I don't even want to think about it. Thankful ALWAYS that I have no daughters, because, how could I possibly protect her from this ugly world tht doesn't even want her in the first place? No fix for it.

[Kitsune]

2. ...oh jesus christ.

I am just completely fucking speechless.

[etherealtruth]

3. Why am I sure the US as occupiers will not concern ....

...themselves with the vicious practice of mutilating and abusing women.

I can not even form a coherent response due to my intense emotional and physical reaction to this horrific abuse!

[Niccolo_Macchiavelli]

4. bwaaah cruel!

just the thought on the thought sends me shivers down the spine!
:wow: :puke:

[formerrepuke]

5. It's not "circumcision"- and the MSM needs to update their terminology

to what it really is: mutilation -usually of children

[Hamlette]

23. we should call it mutilation or castration and no initials,

efforts to make sure people are not totally offended.

[Gman]

6. But the Iraqi people are tasting FREEDOM and they LOVE it!

We have liberated the Iraqi people! They are now free to circumcise any and all women!

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[eissa]

44. Nah

Bush is doing a fine job :eyes:

BTW, freeperland misses you.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

50. Shall we lose the gratuitous attacks and go back to the thread's subject?

The mutilations. What do you think about it?

[H5N1]

7. What exactly is it?

[charlie]

8. Pick a link

Grab your jaw, because it's gonna hit the floor.

http://www.google.com/search?q=infibulation

[nookiemonster]

10. OMFG!!!

That's what I thought it was, but I wasn't sure.

That's just butchering, plain and simple. What the hell??

[H5N1]

11. What a bloody fucking horror!

I was cringing just reading about it.

[ChoralScholar]

62. oooh... my stomach turned... WTF?!? EOM

[BedRock]

14. It is beyond barbaric!

This is practiced not only in many arabic countries, but elsewhere in Africa.

The female child...10-13 years old...goes through a "ceremony" where her clitoris is cut off. This is done by another woman and is NOT a medical procedure. Infections are common. The pain is intense since no anesthetic is used. There have been instances in the Kurdish area, I have read, where everything in the area was removed.

The enjoyment of sex is essentially eliminated. They are there to make babies and that is it. I guess if the enjoyment of sex is removed, then they will not feel the need to wander.....

I would love to find a seed of compassion in these men, but I doubt if it is there.

The way women on the African continent are treated is pure sadism.

[charlie]

22. "essentially eliminated"

More like "replaced with mind-shattering pain." It's often the case that the woman is wounded so that she heals with only a small peehole orifice. So, whenever Pops decides to take another shot at siring an heir, she gets opened again. And of course, there's birth...

[Megahurtz]

55. It also looks like a situation of

"It must be the women's fault, those whores!"
Just because these assholes can't keep their own dogs tied up.

:sarcasm:

[BedRock]

59. My thoughts exactly!

If those men were to damn superior (master of the house, heirs of the family, keepers of the faith, rulers, "clean") then why are they so intimidated?

After all, it seems like fear that would cause a society to limit and brutalize one half of the population. So what are they afraid of?

:mad:

[fudge stripe cookays]

39. Removing the clitoris...FORCIBLY.

Because God forbid, it might give us pleasure someday. And we wouldn't want that!

It dishonors the family!

It is often done with no anesthatization, no sterile environment, and things gets tied together with acacia thorns when their done.

THEN, in a few years, you get to bear children through that horrible scarred birth canal. And most likely died from it.

But your family wasn't dishonored!

Fun, huh?
FSC

[Ms. Clio]

9. Just to be clear--this very old, horrifying practice long predates Islam

Many African Christians also engage in female genital mutilation. I find it very odd the article does not see fit to mention that, however, when discussing where it occurs.

[Book Lover]

18. In fact, it is mentioned

Although not as you describe, it is mentioned in the article:

But it's not just obstructionism that has held up awareness of the phenomenon. Unlike in parts of Africa, where FGM is practiced relatively openly, in the Middle East it is veiled in secrecy.


Though I have no proof at hand, I feel sure in saying in Africa, this practice also crosses religious lines.

[Ms. Clio]

28. Yes, my point was that they do not mention that CHRISTIANS do it

As for example, this article by Ellen Gruenbaum:

"Sudan is one of the countries where the most severe form of female circumcision persists and is practiced widely among both Muslims and Coptic Christians, in both urban and rural communities."

She also explains:

"The origin of the practice is unknown, though its existence in the ancient civilizations of the Nile Valley in Egypt and Sudan has been documented."


"The Movement Against Clitoridectomy and Infibulation in Sudan: Public Health Policy and the Women's Movement," in Gender in Cross-Cultural Perspective, 2nd. ed., eds. Caroline B. Brettell and Carolyn F. Sargent (Upper Saddle River, NJ: Prentice Hall, 1997), 441-453.

[knitter4democracy]

48. I'd often heard it was Christians doing it, too.

I'd always heard it was a cultural practice, regardless of faith.

Frankly, I find it disgusting that anyone would do that, let alone a woman do it to another woman. There are some things that are evil, even if a religion or culture says it's not. This is one of them.

[Ian David]

35. From what I have read, some women begin to prefer anal sex to please men..

because vaginal sex is too painful for them.

Of course, un-protected anal sex helps spread AIDS.

Especially when their husbands are off sleeping with prostitutes that have intact vaginas.

[Ms. Clio]

38. Good lord, I hadn't heard of that before

Lives of unending pain, already so hideous, only to die from AIDS.

[whatever4]

64. Not surprising at all

Probably hurts less too. But is immaterial; no blood, no foul. And women are so very good at hiding blood.

Damn sluts wanting abortions, if we could just FIX all these women...hey, that must be what this is for, eh?

TOO sad, TOO sick, nothing constructive here, from the topic or my feelings toward it.

Complete lack of empathy, in the guise of faith. Always.

[Gormy Cuss]

12. FGM is too mild a term for it

"They say ..." says Shirin Ali, "... that a circumcised girl has more affection for her family."

Gee, I wonder why that might be.

[JitterbugPerfume]

17. some years ago

Alice Walker wrote a chilling book on this subject

Warrier Marks

This mutilation , very often, is inflicted on infants. Many do not survive Those who do suffer a life time of agony

[Gormy Cuss]

29. Yes, I've read one too many stories detailing it.

Infections, scar tissue, the works. Loss of sensation is the most benign effect. It's a really vile way of keeping women in their places.

[fudge stripe cookays]

40. "The Nine Parts of Desire"

also has a very telling chapter of this topic. The author's name is Geraldine...I forget her last name. Australian lady.

FSC

[indigo32]

66. the book she wrote is called

"Possessing the secret of Joy"

[VegasWolf]

13. Under Bush's new "free" Iraq, women will have no freedoms. nt

[eissa]

15. I'm stunned

I've never heard of this practice in Iraq or in other parts of the region like Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, the Gulf, etc. I thought it was primarily in the eastern African regions, like Egypt, Sudan, Somalia, Ethiopia, etc. and that it was more of an Afrian tradition than a Muslim one. Ugh, I'm cringing :puke:

[flannelmouth]

16. This is horrible

In industrialized countries, genital mutilation occurs predominantly among immigrants from countries where mutilation is practised. It has been reported in Australia, Canada, Denmark, France, Italy, the Netherlands, Sweden, the UK and USA. Girls or girl infants living in industrialized countries are sometimes operated on illegally by doctors from their own community who are resident there. More frequently, traditional practitioners are brought into the country or girls are sent abroad to be mutilated. No figures are available on how common the practise is among the populations of industrialized countries.

www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/femgen/fgm1.htm

[proud patriot]

19. those poor girls

:cry:

[gratuitous]

20. Let Freedom Reign, right George?

Is this what Laura and Condi and Karen had in mind when they endorsed the illegal invasion of Iraq? I've heard that George W. has given many women prominent posts in his administration, moreso than any president before him. Will the media be buttonholing those women for their thoughts and comments on this little development?

[SillyGoose]

21. Amnesty International info on this horrific practice...

http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/femgen/fgm1.htm

I became sickened when I first heard of this practice some years ago. In short, it is nothing more than an act of barbarism perpetrated on children and young women.

[nookiemonster]

27. Just the name of the damn procedure

"CLITORAL CIRCUMCISION!!!!"

Nothing, absolutely nothing, warrants this shit. I don't give a damn what culture you are.

[Ripley]

25. AS CRITICS CALL IT??????????????

Yeah, female genital mutilation is exactly the same as male circumcision. So why bother with worrying about this little act? :sarcasm:


Are some of the freaking Earth's inhabitants on a mission to Destroy Females except for breeding and sexual pleasure purposes?

[knitter4democracy]

49. I had the same thought.

Wtf?

Honoring their culture is beside the point when women are being harmed in such a horrible way. Let's call this thing what it is.

[indigo32]

67. Well

"Are some of the freaking Earth's inhabitants on a mission to Destroy Females except for breeding and sexual pleasure purposes?"

unfortunately yes.

[TimeChaser]

30. Now, if I remember human anatomy correctly...

If this was really "female circumcision," as compared to male circumcision, it would involve the cutting or removing of the clitoral hood.

How ever, this practice involves the removal of the clitoris. For any males out there (or women who need to explain this a man) that essentially hurts just as much as a boy getting his penis cut off.

Now imagine the outrage we'd be seeing if it were the boys being mutilated.

[nolabels]

31. Could be one of the reasons people are not flocking to places.........

that have this in their repertoire of ritual practices. Male circumcision is stupid enough already.

If you really wanted something to imagine though, imagine there were no more afternoon soaps on teevee :D

[Niccolo_Macchiavelli]

34. actually male circumcision has a hygienic aspect

because no rubbish amasses under the forehood (because it ain't there)

Clitoris removal is just cruel. Can't imagine anything more cruel done to a women than this.

[knitter4democracy]

51. That's an old myth.

In medical study after study, there is no evidence of that being a problem for infection. They might find a small percentage, but it's not clinical, meaning it has no effect in real life.

My husband and I fought over circumcising our son before he was born. He's an internist and so had to do a medical search, as that's what he respects. He found that there's no medical reason of any kind to do this to our sons. I told him that I found it morally repugnant, saying that if we're against female genital mutilation, why would we be for male genital mutilation? He finally agreed to go along with me (well, that and I told him it'd be over my dead and cold body), and he's a major advocate against all forms of genital mutilation now.

[David Zephyr]

53. Not an "old myth" anymore.

I used to believe exactly the same thing. But no more.

You made the following statement about male circumcision, "In medical study after study, there is no evidence of that being a problem for infection."

Actually, every major recent medical study regarding circumcision and HIV has overwhelmingly shown just the opposite. Here's just a little:

------------------------
From 2004:

Male Circumcision Protects Against AIDS:

"It is now about the ninth study which followed men who are HIV-negative over a period of months or years. It is the ninth study in a row which has found that the effect (of male circumcision) is significant," said Robert C. Bailey, professor of epidemiology and biostatistics at the University of Illinois at Chicago, who was not connected with Bollinger's study.

Complete article here: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/26/health/main609019.shtml

And still more postive testing data from this year, 2005:

MALE CIRCUMCISION PROCEDURE LINKED TO MUCH LOWER RATE OF NEW HIV INFECTIONS:

French and South African AIDS researchers have called an early halt to a study of adult male circumcision to reduce HIV infection after initial results reportedly showed that men who had the procedure dramatically lowered their risk of contracting the virus.

The study's preliminary results, disclosed Tuesday by the Wall Street Journal, showed that circumcision reduced the risk of contracting HIV by 70 percent -- a level of protection far better than the 30 percent risk reduction set as a target for an AIDS vaccine.

According to the newspaper account, the study under way in Orange Farm township, South Africa, was stopped because the results were so favorable. It was deemed unethical to continue the trial after an early peek at data showed that the uncircumcised men were so much more likely to become infected.

All of the men in the study had been followed for a year, and half the men had been followed for the full 21 months called for in the original study design, according to the Wall Street Journal, which obtained a draft copy of the study.

Begun in August 2002, the experiment is one of three closely watched clinical trials in Africa to determine whether there is scientific merit to nearly three dozen less rigorously controlled studies showing that circumcised men were much less likely to become HIV-positive.

Complete article here: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/07/06/MNGANDJFVK1.DTL

[knitter4democracy]

56. I hadn't seen the last one but remember the first for some reason

If I remember right, all the studies my husband could find done in the States found a statistical difference but not a clinical difference. That means that yes, there's something there, but it's not in big enough numbers for doctors to recommend.

If the last one is right, that is something, but we're not talking about a benign procedure here. Babies do die from circumcision (a baby boy died in Cleveland from the anesthesia not long after I had my daughter), and it's a horrible, painful procedure. It used to be thought that babies don't process pain the same way adults do, but pain studies have shown that to be wrong. If they use anesthetic and all like they should, that introduces yet another potential problem with allergies and all.

Honestly, if my son wants to get circumsized as an adult, it'll be his body and his choice (I won't like it, but it's his life), and then it can be done safely and with his consent. I'm not comfortable with it otherwise.

[Niccolo_Macchiavelli]

65. you can hardly compare this minor modification to the removal of the clit

and from a circumsized male take it:

if done properly, it IS a minor modification. And it affects the "funktions" as much as the removal of your earlobe would affect your hearing ability.

it is in no way comparable to FGM.


In what circumstances this is done: hospital -> backally is another pair of shoes.

[Megahurtz]

54. Actually, all a guy has to do is

clean himself on a regular basis and there won't be any rubbish under the forehood to worry about.

Somehow, I think it's an ancient kooky:crazy: practice on both genders!

[charlie]

32. Yeah, "circumcision" is utterly inadequate

and inappropriate. It's the difference between a haircut and a beheading.

[CAcyclist]

41. Best Metaphor I've Yet Read

edited for grammar

[LSU_Subversive]

43. or a scalping vs. a beheading.

[Shakespeare]

33. I'd like to know if the frequency of this has risen since our occupation.

Betcha dollars to donuts that it has--probably exponentially. I'm not fan of Hussein's, but at least he kept the islamic fundies adequately controlled.

[Jack Rabbit]

36. This doesn't look like anything new

Female circumcision is more common in Africa, especially East Africa. It is not unheard of on the Arabian peninsula; about 20% of Yemeni women are circumcised. However, this article from Wikipedia does mention any facts about the practice in Iraq.

Reading the article from the Christian Science Monitor, it seems like far from "surfacing" in Iraq, the practice, which was performed quietly in remote places, is actually in decline. Note the conclusion of the piece:

Hero Umar, the social worker, nonetheless thinks attitudes are slowly beginning to change.

"Most imams are cooperative," she notes. "The biggest obstacle remaining is the older generation of women."

[bettyellen]

37. It's MUTILATION - not circumcison.....

i hate when they call it that.

[DELUSIONAL]

46. In WASHINGTON state -- there is an Iraqi population

I've talked to nurses who have attended births of Iraqi women who have been mutilated as children -- the details were horrific and it was traumatic for all the female medical professionals who attended these women. The nurses never mentioned the reactions of males -- so I am assuming that no males were in attendance??

This practice is wide spread -- also common in Egypt.

There is a former model Iman from Sudan -- stunningly tall & beautiful. This was done to her as a child. She was a UN Special Ambassador for the Elimination of Female Genital Mutilation. This mutilation is something she has been fighting because she knows personally the devastating long term effects. And some girls don't survive the "operation".

One immigrant from one of the barbaric counties that do this to their female children was fighting deportation because she did NOT want this operation. The bastard of a male judge was so accepting of this male culture crap. I lost track of this case -- feminists were fighting for this young woman, so I hope it turned out in her favor.
(this is a link for another case -- this one in Canada --
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/313/7052/249 )

Here's a male Egyptian doctor's opinion -- which goes to show that even college educated males can still be ignorant. His statement sums up a highly biased viewpoint -- and this jerks add twisted science to justify the barbaric treatment of young girls.

Dr Saed Thabet, a professor of gynaecology at Cairo's Kasr El Aini Teaching Hospital, believes that female circumcision is necessary, although he thinks that it should be performed only by doctors. The study pamphlets that he distributes to his students include a section on how circumcision is healthier for the woman. "Both Islam and medicine agree on its benefits," said Dr Thabet. "Uncircumcised girls will want sex more than is healthy. And they are more liable to infections and cancers."

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/313/7052/249

Thanks for posting this -- because this dirty secret is happening in Iraq -- and if the religious wing-ding-nuts get their way it will be happening to even more Iraqi girls.

I really do try to be tolerant of all cultures and respect people's religious beliefs -- but when it comes to female genital mutilation I have ZERO tolerance. This isn't religious or cultural -- it is just pure hatred against women.

[knitter4democracy]

52. That doctor needs his license yanked.

He's full of crap. There is no medical evidence approving this disgusting procedure--not anything credible, anyway.

How could a woman want sex more than is healthy? Who is he to determine what is healthy? And, um, why wouldn't men want their wives to want sex frequently? This is seriously sick crap.

[JohnLocke]

47. It's female genital mutilation, not "female circumcision."

[The Stranger]

57. Let me guess -- Saddam had outlawed it, but now it is back.

[David Zephyr]

58. Interesting observation.

Sort of like Saddam saying "we don't have any WMD's" and Bush saying, "yes, you do". Which one told the truth?

[cthrumatrix]

60. I'm sure Diane Sawyer is all over this one....