Jews rule the world: Mahathir

[rooboy]

JEWS rule the world, getting others to fight and die for them, but will not be able to defeat the world's 1.3 billion Muslims, Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad has told a major Islamic summit.

"The Europeans killed six million Jews out of 12 million. But today the Jews rule this world by proxy. They get others to fight and die for them," Mahathir said, adding, "1.3 billion Muslims cannot be defeated by a few million Jews."

The veteran Malaysian premier, who has become notorious for his controversial speeches during his 22 years as leader of this moderate Muslim country, was addressing the opening session of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC) summit.

He told the biggest gathering of Muslim leaders since the 2001 attacks on the United States that all Muslims were suffering "oppression and humiliation", with their religion accused of promoting terrorism.

http://www.thecouriermail.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,7577227%255E1702,00.html

[sujan]

1. And

Mahathir, soon to retire and making his valedictory appearance at an OIC summit, declared that over 50 years of fighting had accomplished nothing for the Palestinians while the Jewish people enjoyed the influence of a world power.

But he said faith could lead Muslims to victory at the negotiating table.

"The Koran tells us that when the enemy sues for peace we must react positively," he told the summiteers, adding that his words would not be popular.

"True the treaty offered to us is not favorable. But we can negotiate. The Prophet did," he said.

"And in the end he triumphed."
http://www1.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2003-10/16/content_272691.htm

[FlemingsGhost]

2. This post has been self-censored.

Lest I be accused of being "anti-semitic."

When does the guilt-trip end, and criticism is fairly acknowledged?

[Cassandra]

17. Criticism of what, exactly?

That Jews invented human rights and democracy? Socialism and communism? Ruling the world?
Perhaps the guilt trip ends when people who complain about guilt trips acknowledge that even the Holocaust didn't end anti-Semitism, even in places that have no Jews. That to me is mind-boggling. It is not a guilt trip to remind people that a truly monstrous thing can happen in a supposedly civilized society. That is a lesson for all of us that you just prefer to characterize as a guilt trip.

[atreides1]

31. We Must Never Allow Any Country To Do What Nazi Germany Did

Anyone with a brain knows that the Holocaust did not bring an end to anti-semitism, just as Civil Rights did not bring an end to racism.

Yes a truly monstrous thing did happen, but we seem to forget about the 6,000,000 other non-Jews that died in the camps as well, not to mention the military personnel that were killed in the war.

If it is not a guilt trip to remind people of a truly monstrous thing, then why are people accused of anti-semitism when they bring up the massacres of the Palestians at the refugee camps in Lebanon.
Conducted by forces led by Ariel Sharon, the current Prime Minister.

Why is the accusation of anti-semitism placed an those that point out that Israel has failed to abide by UN Security Council resolutions.

We should never forget what occured during WWII, and we should always remember that non-Jews were murdered as well. And we should do everything that we possibly can to make sure that NO OTHER COUNTRY IS
ALLOWED TO WHAT NAZI GERMANY AND ITS ALLIES DID.

And this includes the US as well as Israel.

[Cassandra]

36. Given that it was Christians who did all of the above killings...

Why are we even talking about Jews? When was the last time you heard anyone blaming all Christians for the murders in Sabra and Shatila? (Sharon wasn't leading them, he was supposed to be guarding the Muslims, which he manifestly didn't do) When was the last time you heard anyone blaming all Christians for all the deaths in WWII, or in the Balkens or in Africa, or in the murders of Native Americans from Canada to Argentina, and on and on....? I don't forget the others that died under the Nazis, but Poles and Russians and the French and Italians and many others didn't have a history and a future of being threatened as a people, so they don't feel the need to keep the memory alive as much.
" NO OTHER COUNTRY IS ALLOWED TO WHAT NAZI GERMANY AND ITS ALLIES DID."
You're a day late and several dollars short on that one. It has happened since, and mostly perpetrated by Christians, so why all the ruckus about Jews?

[Tinoire]

44. I will not let this white-washing of Sharon pass unchallenged

because on one hand, people go OUT of their way to whitewash Sharon and every atrocity he's committed while at the same time decrying that Sharon neither speaks nor acts for all Jews. You can understand, can't you, that you can't have it both ways. It's like Bush- you're either with him or against him.

You know full well that in no way, shape or form was Sharon there to be "guarding the Muslims". Sharon was a warrior hawk fighting for the expansion of Israel and ridding the areas under his control of Muslims.
------

Ariel Sharon was responsible for some 66 to 70 civilian deaths in a raid on Qibya in October 1953 (two-thirds of the victims were women and children) and he was found, even by the Israeli Kahan commission, to have been " indirectly responsible" for the mass killings at Sabra and Shatila, estimated by various authorities as somewhere between 800 and 3,000 Palestinian civilians, a large fraction once again women and children. The Kahan commission was protecting Israel's own high official in making Sharon only "indirectly responsible," but he was on the scene, was Minister of Defense in charge of operations in the area, and knowingly invited the Christian Phalange into the killing fields. He was quite aware of what was going to happen and failed to intervene during the 30 hours of killings.
An independent court or truth commission would have found Ariel Sharon directly responsible for the mass killings at Sabra and Shatila.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Israel/Ariel_Sharon_Herman.html


------
From Human Rights Watch

The Kahan Commission (named after the President of the Israeli Supreme Court) that investigated the massacre in 1983 concluded that “Minister of Defense bears personal responsibility” and should “draw the appropriate personal conclusions arising out of the defects revealed with regard to the manner in which he discharged the duties of his office.” The commission recommended that Prime Minister Menachem Begin remove Sharon from office if he did not resign. Sharon did resign as minister of defense, though he subsequently assumed other cabinet positions. Annexes of the commission report have not yet been made public, and it is not known if they contain additional information specific to Sharon´s involvement.

<snip>

Details of the massacre

The massacre at the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps occurred between September 16 and 18, 1982, after Israel Defense Forces (“IDF”) then occupying Beirut and under Ariel Sharon´s overall command as Israeli Defense Minister permitted members of the Phalange militia into the camps. The precise civilian death toll most likely will never be known. Israeli military intelligence estimated that between 700 and 800 people were killed in Sabra and Shatilla during the sixty-two-hour rampage, while Palestinian and other sources have claimed that the dead numbered up to several thousand. The victims included infants, children, women (including pregnant women), and the elderly, some of whom were mutilated or disemboweled before or after they were killed. Journalists who arrived on the scene immediately after the massacre also saw evidence of the summary execution of young men. To cite only one contemporaneous account, that of Thomas Friedman of the New York Times: “Mostly I saw groups of young men in their twenties and thirties who had been lined up against walls, tied by their hands and feet, and then mowed down gangland-style with fusillades of machine-gun fire.”

By all accounts, the perpetrators of this indiscriminate slaughter were members of the Phalange (or Kata´eb, in Arabic) militia, a Lebanese force that was armed by and closely allied to Israel since the outbreak of Lebanon´s civil war in 1975. It must be noted, however, that the killings were carried out in an area under IDF control. An IDF forward command post was situated on the roof of a multi-story building located some 200 meters southwest of the Shatilla camp.

Findings of the Kahan Commission:

In February 1983, the three-member Israeli official independent commission of inquiry charged with investigating the events known as the Kahan Commission named former Defense Minister Sharon as one of the individuals who "bears personal responsibility" for the Sabra and Shatilla massacre.

Former Defense Minister Sharon´s decision to allow the Phalange into the camps: The Kahan Commission report detailed the direct role of former Defense Minister Sharon in allowing the Phalangists into the Sabra and Shatilla camps. For instance, then-Chief of Staff Lt.-Gen. Rafael Eitan testified that the entry of the Phalangists into the refugee camps was agreed upon between former Defense Minister Sharon and himself. Thereafter, former Defense Minister Sharon went to Phalangist headquarters and met with, among others, a number of Phalangist commanders. A document issued by former Defense Minister Sharon´s office containing “The Defense Minister´s Summary of 15 September 1982” states: “For the operation in the camps the Phalangists should be sent in.” That document also stated that “the I.D.F. shall command the forces in the area.”

Former Defense Minister Sharon´s disregard of the consequences of that decision: As to former Defense Minister Sharon´s testimony that “no one had imagined the Phalangists would carry out a massacre in the camps,” the Kahan Commission concluded that “it is impossible to justify disregard of the danger of a massacre” because “no prophetic powers were required to know that a concrete danger of acts of slaughter existed when the Phalangists were moved into the camps without the I.D.F.´s being with them.” In fact, the Commission found: “In our view, everyone who had anything to do with events in Lebanon should have felt apprehension about a massacre in the camps, if armed Phalangist forces were to be moved into them without the I.D.F. exercising concrete and effective supervision and scrutiny of them…. To this backdrop of the Phalangists´ toward the Palestinians were added the profound shock ….”

<snip>

http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/06/isr0622.htm#Kahan%20Commission

[meti57b]

38. of course we do not forget the 6,000,000 non-Jews and military who died

at the hands of the nazis.

But I ask you to also not forget that the nazis didn't just happen to kill the 6,000,000 Jews, ... the nazis planned and were carrying out a specific program to completely exterminate and annihilate ALL Jews from the face of the earth.

[Aidoneus]

3. controversial remarks from both ends by him

the "Jews rule the world by proxy" line is just stupid, but he also suggested combating Israel with something other than force. He's certainly retiring, spitting heresies from both sides like that. There were other remarks from him of a much more sound perspective, but those will go more or less unnoticed--give the yellow press an eye-grabber for a headline and everything else said be damned.

That the Butcher of Grozny was even invited to this summit gives an idea of the (sub-)standards required at the door to get in.

[bambo53]

4. Just a question, nothing more...

What race or religion is predominate in the neo-cons that run this country right now?

[SahaleArm]

5. Control

The religion of power, and with it comes money.

[Aidoneus]

6. worship of power and money, a dash of opportunistic hypocrisy on the side

I see where you're driving at, though--that may seem the obvious answer, but I think that as a diversion from the all-too-typical historical patterns at work.

[bambo53]

7. Another question, just for thought,

What is the predominate problem that causes most of the unrest in that part of the world?

The sooner we can openly acknowledge the root of the problem, and discuss it openly and honestly, the sooner we can solve the problem

[meti57b]

12. and another answer, just for thought ....

The predominant problem in that part of the world in the US attempt to control the middle east and their oil, in order to maximize profit.

[bambo53]

8. A moral dilemma

God told me to murder my puppy.

Is that a true statement and should I act upon it?

If I did, would you criticize me personally, or the value of my thought process?

Would you be criticizing my religious beliefs, or questioning my sanity?

How about this one, my son is being beaten up everyday at school, and has been for years. I've tried retaliating against the bullies but it simply will not stop.

Am I insane for not wanting to look at my son for the root of the problem?

[The mattman]

9. cudos on the last statement bamboo53

The root of the priblem is simple fanaticisim, fanaticisim blinds anindividual to the innocense of any one who doesn't see through the eyes of that fanatic. Thus the islamic fanatic and the infidel are natural enemies. Thus(at the risk of being redundant), THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM IS FANATISIM!!!

[Dhalgren]

22. And anyone who believes that Israel

has a "God given" right to the land they occupy, might be call a fanatic, as well.

[meti57b]

11. and an answer, nothing more ....

Neo-cons are predominantly Christian and Caucasian. But they are individuals and I would not be prejudiced against all Christians and Caucasians because of what neo-cons think and do.

[mobuto]

14. Episcopalianism

Although there are certainly plenty of Southern Baptists, Pentacostolists and Jews.

If you want to decry Jewish influence, perhaps you should start with the Clinton Administration, where Jews held greater influence over policy.

[piece sine]

18. does it matter?

why even ask?

[a_random_joel]

41. I'm so tired of the inferred innuendo.

READ THE DAMNED PNAC LIST and tell me how many Jews are on it. Versus Christians.

Damn this crap.

Is Cheney a Jew? Bush? Rumsfeld? Rice? Ashcroft? Powell? DeLay?

You want me to keep going?

[Dhalgren]

20. If, as some believe, the US acts as Israel's

staunchest protector, then, in a manner of speaking, Jews (Israelis) do rule the world. The US acts unilaterally, without regard for international law, treaties, or opinion - if the US doesn't "rule the world", it comes pretty damned close. Now with Israel tucked firmly under the US wing, many Muslims see Israel as far more powerful than it should be, due to this relationship.

And I think that the US has enough "butchers" on its payroll to be a little cautious of throwing the first stone.

[a_random_joel]

42. Then by your logic

I suppose South Koreans rule the world as well. I'm sure I could keep going, but why bother.

[truthisfreedom]

10. you know, this really doesn't sound too good.

i mean, the odds look bad.

[Lurking Dem]

13. Some of the responses to this

are mind boggling.

[hiphopnation]

35. care

to explain?

[Jack Rabbit]

15. What a moron

Mahathir is expressing sentiments that are little different from the Islamaphobes among Chiristian fundamentalists in this country.

As one who supports the concept of a free and independent Palestinian state coexisting with Israel, I can do without this kind of anti-Semitic claptrap. The progressive movement is about getting people to live in peace in spite of their differences, not about stamping out another ethnic group because some members of it frustrate the aspirations of others within one's own group. That's just racism in drag.

His remarks are inconsistant with progressive goals. There is no reason for progressives to embrace them and every reason for progressives to denounce them. Mahathir's sentiments are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

[mobuto]

16. Jews invented Socialism, Human Rights and Democracy?

"They invented and successfully promoted socialism, communism, human rights and democracy so that persecuting them would appear to be wrong, so they may enjoy equal rights with others."

I love this.

Got to get those evil human-rights' loving Jews.

And democracy?

Ooooh. Makes my blood boil too, Mac.

I love anti-Semites -- they're so nice they even credit Jews with great inventions we had nothing to do with, unless Kleisthenes, Socrates and Plato were closet members of the Tribe.

[Fovea]

19. The problem of course

is seperating the faith from the state.

It is difficult to criticize the State of Israel without the accusation of Anti Semitism. The Jewish state is guilty of horrible things, but I do not condemn the Jewish faith, or the people as a group.

Such is the problem of theocracies of any stripe.

[mobuto]

25. Israel is not a Theocracy

the Torah spells out what the laws and customs of a Jewish theocracy should be. Israel pays lip service to a very few of them in a very few social areas, but for actual political and human rights issues, adopts a very different line. If you care to look at Israel, you'll find that its a very modern, secular state.

Efforts to bring religion into the public sphere have met with widespread hostility from both the left and the right, witness the meteoric rise of Tommy Lapid and his party.

[LevChernyi]

26. you have to go to a government office to change religion

If you are Jewish they will make it difficult for you. That's definately nothing like an American concept of seperation of church and state and they bar inter-religious marriages to be conducted in Israel. If your last name is Cohen you can't marry a divorcee. Maybe it's not Iran but it's not a secular system either.

[mobuto]

29. Social issues

We can debate some stupid policies here and there, but what I'm talking about are real fundamental issues:

Democracy; The structure of the economy; Law; The role of clerics in the decision-making process.

If you want to see a theocracy, look at those Muslim countries that atempt to impose Sha'ria. Like Islam, Judaism prescribes a formula for hypothetical theocratic rule. But if you look at the very fundamentals of the state, you'll see that the organization of life in Israel is thoroughly and completely different than it would be in a true theocracy.

[LevChernyi]

30. that's what bin Ladin says about Saudi Arabia and Iran

that they aren't true theocratic states because of some element or another that doesn't conform to his vision of theocratic rule.

A "true" theocracy is in the eyes of the beholder.

[mobuto]

32. We're not talking about "some element"

We're talking about practically everything.

1. Law - The Torah contains massive amounts of law. But it isn't used in Israel. Instead Israel has a modernist progressive legal system founded on the rule of law that owes far more to the Enlightenment than it does on any religious text. Israeli law is a hybrid of English common law and Napoleonic-Continental code. I don't see any connection at all here.

2. Government - Israel isn't ruled by clerics, as was historic in the dual Jewish theocracies of the ancient world. Instead it is a secular democratic pluralistic state, run by politicians elected by a citizen body composed of an amalgam of Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims, Christians, secularists and, yes, Jews.


Aside from law and government, what else is there? Well, there's social law. And you can criticize that. But the fundamentals of the state are entirely secular. You can raise strawmen like Bin Laden, but I really don't see a connection. By your definition of theocracy, Ireland is the greatest theocracy of all, since its social law (opposition to abortion, divorce, etc.) are dictated by the Catholic church. Except it isn't a theocracy, its just a pluralistic Democracy inhabited by a lot of conservative Catholics. Well, Israel is a pluralistic Democracy inhabited by a lot of religious Jews.

[David__77]

39. not a theocracy, but not secular and non-racial either...

I think that it would be good if the rabbinate were separated from the state power. It also would be good if racial demographic fixations could be transcended. Of course this also has to do with reforming the thinking of the Arab Israelis as well. There is a lot of fear in Israel about the inevitable fact that one day, Jews will be a minority of Israeli citizens.

[LevChernyi]

21. is the full text available?

anyone?

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

23. Globe and mail has further snippits of speech:

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20031016.wkids1016/BNStory/International/

[LevChernyi]

24. yeah, but..

notice these things? "Jews invented democracy, etc..." is in quotes and then the author of the peice then fills in his own words about how they did this to control everyone else.

I think it's a probably 95% bullshit.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

33. That he said it?

[LevChernyi]

34. said what?

notice how the quotes were used?

It's quite evident that he didn't say verbatim what they attributed to him.

[mobuto]

27. San Francisco Chronicle

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/10/16/international1009EDT0558.DTL


A full transcript has yet to be released, to my knowledge, but it should be posted on the Prime Minister's website:

http://www.pmo.gov.my/website/webdb.nsf/Eng+Main+Frameset?OpenFrameSet

unless the hail of criticism forces him to hide it.

[Aidoneus]

28. not quite a full text,

but a more expanded treatment of his remarks--
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/0DBB989B-A1D1-414C-B8BD-9E842D8E9AD1.htm

[Lurking Dem]

37. I find many of his statements

much more reasonable than a number of statements made by DUers.

[GermanDJ]

40. This proves one thing:

People who are complete idiots can get political power in *any* country.

Really, I mean when someone even *thinks* that you can judge people by looking at their religion he/she proves that he is either a fanatic or suffers from persecution mania.

Scary to think that people like Mahathir have political power in the 21st century.
But then again: Berlusconi has a similiar agenda, just like the American president and - i fear - Tony Blair.
I can't help but wonder who actually votes for idiots like these?

[mobuto]

43. He's no idiot

What he's saying is awful and wrong, but its far from stupid. Anti-Semitism has long been an effective political tool. These comments will raise Malaysia's relative prestige within the Islamic world. Remember, they come at a conference of Islamic leaders that he's hosting. He will be seen as courageous. In a region where America and Israel are seen as twin manifestations of evil, comments like these could reap investment and power dividends from sympathetic fellow travelers.

[Skinner]

45. I'm locking this thread.

I think we've discussed this enough for one day.

I will also add that I understand people here have a wide range of opinions about the Arab/Israeli conflict, and that's good. But I'm fairly disappointed that we can't at least agree that saying "the Jews rule this world" has a certain whiff to it.

Skinner
DU Admin