US imposes sanctions on Syria

[cthrumatrix]

US imposes sanctions on Syria

The United States' House of Representatives has passed legislation to impose sanctions on Syria for alleged ties to terrorist groups and attempts to obtain nuclear, biological and chemical weapons.

The legislation also calls on Syria to end its occupation of Lebanon.

The bill was passed 398 to four.

Last week, President George W Bush ended two years of opposition to the legislation and has indicated he will sign the bill.


http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s968105.htm

[La_Serpiente]

1. Who voted against them

Who voted against them?

[Classical_Liberal]

2. God this is dumb

This is only setting the groundwork for more war. Why the hell do we want the Syrians out of Lebanon? So Israel can occupy it, and draw the Americans in when they fuck up like they did last time? Remember the Marine Barracks. More dead soldier on the flypaper is all this stupid legislation will produce. What in the heck was Boxer thinking? She sponsered this with Santorum the Dispensationalist Catholic. Dah!

[Say_What]

34. Another carte blanche (nearly) by the spineless f*cks on Capitol Hill

bought and paid for by the corps. Is anyone surprised??

[radfringe]

42. place your bets

War in '04?

I'm betting that Bootsie will invade Syria no earlier than October '04 - just in time for the Selection

[yella_dawg]

44. Nah.

Chimpy won't jump on Syria unless he can't steal the 2004 election. He will likely need some pretext to invalidate the election, and massive war in the Middle East would do just peachy. Get Israel shooting too, and the fun would just never end.

[Occulus]

49. If he cancels elections

there will be an armed revolt.

[joshdawg]

3. And don't stop with Syria

Hell, impose sanctions on Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, Iran, etc., etc. ad nauseum. Let's get all the Arabs mad at us, as if they weren't already. Stupid! There is no limit to this administration's arrogance!

[emad]

4. Why pick on the Arab world? How about starting closer to home:

Canada? Mexico? Jamaica?

[Classical_Liberal]

5. Only 4 congress people votes against it

That means almost all the democrats surely did. It isn't just the administration. The Dems are obviously clueless if they voted for this. Ofcoarse they all voted for the Patriot act without even looking.

[teryang]

9. Come on, they spent one day on the first

$79 Billion Congress authorized and now the GAO says the executive branch can't account for how it was spent.

[mobuto]

30. Why are they clueless?

Bashar al-Assad is a very bad man who has done much to make the situation in the Middle East just as unpleasant as it can possibly be. He wants war and instability, because he knows the Syrian monarchy (which is, after all, what the Ba'athist regime has effectively evolved into) cannot survive a peaceful reconciliation with the outside world.

Bashar wants to be isolated - and shouldn't mind being isolated. But at the same time he's been pouring gasoline on the flames of Lebanon, the territories, Iraq, and the Kurds. I don't think its unfair of us to deny him the resources to do that effectively.

Are there more effective policies we could adopt with regard to Syria? Perhaps. But we can't expect the best of all possible worlds with this current Administration, and an embargo is certainly justified.

[Classical_Liberal]

31. Neither the sanctions or the embargo are justified

I've seen no evidence Syria supports terrorists, or evidence they are trying to get WMD. Syria ended the Lebanese Civil war. It is good he occupies and stabilizes Lebanon after Israel wrecked the place. We should be thankful, because it means we don't get pulled in, and we should hope he keeps it up until Israel commits to staying out. As for Assad's monarchy. What in the heck do you think Chalabi is?

[mobuto]

33. No evidence Syria supports terrorists? For real?

Not even Hezbollah? That's a rather bold claim.

or evidence they are trying to get WMD.

I didn't say they had.

Syria ended the Lebanese Civil war.

By conquering Lebanon.

It is good he occupies and stabilizes Lebanon after Israel wrecked the place.

The Civil War started in 1975. Syria sent in troops in 1976. Israel invaded in 1982. Methinks you have your chronology a little wrong.

we should hope he keeps it up until Israel commits to staying out.

Barak pulled out the last Israeli troops from Lebanon in 2000. Lebanon is a fascinating country with much potential and many great residents, but it has a great many problems, Israel being by far the least of them.

As for Assad's monarchy. What in the heck do you think Chalabi is?

You're attempting to change the subject. Unfortunately, your analogy does not work; Chalabi is not the monarch of Iraq by any stretch.

[Aidoneus]

37. a complicated subject..

(your quotes in italics, C_L's bolded)

Not even Hezbollah? That's a rather bold claim.

"support" is a bold claim, "tolerates" is more accurate. The Lebanese people themselves support Hizbullah, but that's not the issue. Whether they count under the definitions of "terrorist" is really just a matter of personal preference of the speaker. I don't consider them such, and I'm quite aware of their history and the greater context that they exist within. I know that the US/Israeli gov'ts do, but they're also wrong about a lot of things and have their own reasons for thinking so that are more personal than impartial/rational (and of course hold others to a standard they'd never dream of judging themselves by, so that invasions and thousands of deaths are perfectly fine if the right people do them).

As for other "terrorists", the only thing active right now would be some of the Palestinians (which again is entirely a matter of individual preference with regard to what term is used as a description), but I'm not sure what they actually could do to be any signifigant role aside from someone else to blame when the "KILL ARAFAT" pressure reaches dangerously real potential (if you don't quite get what I mean by that obscure/truncated reference, just ask and I could elaborate). It's not like the humanbombers need to go through any "training camp" to know how to push a button..

And um, it's been years and years since I've seen the Japanese Red Army do anything, the last thing I remember PFLP doing besides the raid on the Lebanese border recently was knocking off that fascist creep Zeevi, and I happen to consider that doing the world a good deed. So unless they want to go back in history and hold people accountable for that, I'm not sure really what they could be stuck with--but if that's the case, there's a whole heap of nasties in our own history that could be dug up as an argument of the same pedigree (far more valid, even), but again that's the standard held to others that would never be dreamt of having held to ourselves. For example, I know you supported the Iraq war. Are you proud of the thousands of innocent people to die from this? How was/is Paris? been a while since I noticed you post here..

or evidence they are trying to get WMD.

I didn't say they had.

Even if you did not, this charge is the one that is probably true--they've supposedly been seeking some sort of deterrence to balance Israel's large stock of nuclear weapons and other "WMD". Not aware of any nuke/bio programs, but I believe some sort of chemical deterrence exists in addition to conventional forces.

Syria ended the Lebanese Civil war.

By conquering Lebanon.

More like by bringing most of the warring parties onto the same team (strange as that may sound, it's exactly what happened). That is/was a very complicated affair, not entirely good or bad but usually both at the same time; good deeds done for the wrong reasons, etc..

It is good he occupies and stabilizes Lebanon after Israel wrecked the place.

The Civil War started in 1975. Syria sent in troops in 1976. Israel invaded in 1982. Methinks you have your chronology a little wrong.

I'm not sure I would personally say "good", but their presence has a positive effect even though I technically oppose it on principle.

The civil war flared up again in '75, essentially over the Palestinians (who were massacred by the thousand on multiple occasions by fascist Christian phalange) but also over the completely unfair balance of power.

Israel had committed criminal acts in Lebanon before then but not on too wide a scale by that time and were just a "potential" player in the scene ('78 was the first large scale invasion, where they also began enlisting proxy gangs that would later became the SLA).

Syria in fact intervened on the side of the Christians to prevent them from being defeated and to prevent instability on its exposed border, but switched sides when the Maronites enlisted the Israelis instead.

The Israelis in the 80s/90s then inflicted an incredible amount of damage on Lebanon and many thousands of deaths--15-30,000 with tens of thousands more injured and hundreds of thousands of refugees created on multiple occasions in deliberate mass-targetting of civilian populations. It should be noted that while Hizbullah is blamed in a remarkably shrill and decontextualized manner for rocketing northern Israeli settlements in retaliation for the destruction repeatedly heaped on Lebanese cities, the amount of actual damage deaths they've caused--maybe 20 people within Israel itself at most--is really inconsequential in comparison to the damage Israel dealt out on Lebanon with impunity for decades and was more a psychological gesture than direct physical intent.

The civil war officially ended in the late 80s through Syrian mediation (and again, a good deed done for selfish reasons).

we should hope he keeps it up until Israel commits to staying out.

Barak pulled out the last Israeli troops from Lebanon in 2000.

I'm not sure I'd endorse the presence as it is above, but again it has a positive effect in preventing serious civil conflicts from breaking out again and deterring any future Israeli assaults, and will be maintained until a better solution presents itself. That does not include US/Israeli jets dropping more bombs. Due to the history and specific nature being vastly different, it is not comperable to the Israeli occupation over Palestine.

Barak may have had the criminal occupation forces and SLA proxies retreat from their positions due to the pressure, but that was not the last of Israeli threats and provocations against Lebanon--there have been literally hundreds of such aggressive violations since the pullout, the most recent just a few hours ago and at a very regular rate for years now.

Considering that the same person to preside over the last invasion of Lebanon and the massive amount of deaths and destruction it caused is now leading Israel, that threat has not passed.

Assad & Chalabi aren't really comperable. Chalabi & Aoun are, however..

[Muddleoftheroad]

35. What?

All the crap Israel gets for the West Bank and Gaza and you have the gall to say it's GOOD that Syria occupies Lebanon?

I am amazed.

[davhill]

38. very bad man

We always need another Saddam to justify our own crimes.

[imax2268]

6. Something has to be done

get this administration under control or get them out of power...this is plain stupid...

What number on the PNAC list is Syria anyway...?

[Aidoneus]

7. this administration?

did you happen to note how many voted no? That's a lot of Democrats as well, a Democratic representative from New York Eliot Engel is one of the people spearheading this, don't just lay this on "BFEE".

[Classical_Liberal]

8. What in the hell are they thinking?

Is this like voting for the war, and then coming out against when things go bad. This is nothing but a repeat of the Iraqi mess. They should be racked over the coals for it. They all have Alzhiemers.

[Aidoneus]

15. for starters, I don't think "clueless" is the right term here

"energetically complicit" springs more to mind:--judging from the vote margin, this was by no means any accident or a fluke.

It's really interesting how far this is off the ground already but how little an issue is being made of it. That this Act is in itself toothless and won't have much physical effect does not detract from the message being delivered.

There's a 2-part study on exactly this subject that I posted down in I/P, unfortunately the thread was derailed very quickly and the main point was a bit lost and meticulously avoided..

pt1-- http://www.lebanonwire.com/0310/03101422DS.asp
pt2-- http://www.lebanonwire.com/0310/03101527DS.asp

[Classical_Liberal]

23. I don't think you say it won't have a physical impact

This benchmarking was used by the neocons when Clinton was president. They got Clinton to claim Iraq was a threat. I am sure Clinton didn't see this PNAC war coming.

[Aidoneus]

24. oh.. as a precedent, of course it'll have an impact

I meant that the sanctions themselves aren't going to be too terribly damaging. Syrian & US economic ties don't run deep, limited mostly to agricultural products if I remember correctly. This is just a political shot across the bow rather than a direct/tangible move, and a step towards the new product line being revealed at the convenient time.

What's really interesting to me is how "quietly" this process is moving along, perhaps intentionally to--a) go over the heads of people, b) attract less potential resistance to the process. What worries me is how it is going by quickly and unopposed by the so-called "opposition", but that doesn't shock me a bit that these gutless hypocrites buy the hook & sinker of this stuff yet again.

I'm certain Clinton did know, for he tried to launch it himself on occasion in between the basic 'starve & bomb at will' policy.

[teryang]

10. The democratic reps in the house

...are sickening. Last night I watched a parade of them claiming that th 87 billion for Cheney and company in Iraq was going to be used to build some sort of utopia. What kind of drugs are they on?

The way they portrayed it the money was being spent for universal health care and education and women's rights. These people aren't even on the same planet.

It was the most pathetic and cowardly performance seen since the Iraq War Resolution.

[Classical_Liberal]

13. What about education and universal health care here?

?

[PsychoDad]

17. I want IN !

universal health care and education and women's rights.

For 87 Billion? I'll buy that. Let's start here in this country. Our citizens deserve this as much as anyone else, don't they?

After we see it works here, we can export.

[Goldmund]

11. aaargh...

Eliot Engel is my representative....

[Jacobin]

12. Here we go again

Soften them up, surround them, attack them, conquer them and occupy them.

Adolph Bush* re-drawing the map for Israel with practically the entire congress behind him. On the news? Nah. Just nonstop Koby.

What has happened to my country.

[ConcernedCanuk]

14. ___ Want to Buy a Vowel ?? ___

..TH_ _S_ _S F_CK_D _P B_GT_M_ !!




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[PsychoDad]

16. Once again ...

And once again the democrats in the house gleefuly jump aboard the republican fear and loathing bandwagon.

Just as in afghanistan.
Just as in iraq.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

18. Why are people so surprised?

We know that most of the Democratic Party leadership is just as beholden to corporate interests as the Republicans, and this is basically a hostile takeover of "The Middle East Incoprorated".

When people start to think like this maybe they, like me and many others, won't be surprised by votes like this from the Dems.

True liberals have got to take back the Democratic party or forget their ideals, because the Dem party as it is right now doesn't represent those ideals.

[Classical_Liberal]

19. I don't know what is going on here

This isn't corporate Interest. The neocons are more like the right wing cuban exiles. I also have come to the conclusion that many democratic leaders are just as ignorant on the middle east as the people. They probably believe Hezbolla is involved in suicide bombings in Israel which is absolute baloney. They probably have also forgotted about our last war in Lebanon.

[Jorje Bzsch]

20. Who is next?

Mexcico? Canada?

[sistersofmercy]

21. Welcome Jorje Bzsch!

:hi: Welcome to DU!
Cuba? Venezuela?

[LevChernyi]

25. it's not ignorance or idealism

it's that all politics are local and the web of money that connects Israel, the American aerospace industry, the Israeli bond market and the US federal treasury is linked so heavily to nearly every district in America that it would be detrimental to their local patrons to ever deviate from the militaristic "no war, no peace" Israeli policy of continual warfare.

[Classical_Liberal]

26. Could you elaborate

I know they buy alot of weapons from us, but the cold war generated weapons production without an all out war.

[LevChernyi]

27. ask your congressman..

When AIPAC comes knocking they don't say "Vote for us or we will knock you off" because despite their daunting reputation their clout isn't in the money they themselves can generate and they would be laughed out of the office.

When they come calling they have a detailed breakdown of exactly how every dollar moves between the fed, Israel, and their district.

on edit: I don't think they really want a war with Syria, I think they would like to see a prolonged occupation of Lebanon again though, and this seems to be the object of all this sabre-rattling.

on further edit: It's not even all about mid-east policy, Israel acts as a conduit for American arms to goverments we theoretically oppose or don't want to be seen as supportive of.

[realFedUp]

28. interesting post

You make sense....I am opposed to sanctions on Syria
and told my Congressman that last week.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

32. There is corporate interest in this all right!

This is about dominance. The idea is to ensure that there is no country able to refuse US rule, and Syria is just a part of the picture of the Middle East. Take out Syria, then Iran and you have basically taken out any threat to US dominance in the region.

It is the same reason why Yugoslavia was a prime target. Yugoslavia was powerful enough to cause major problems for the US in the Baltics, now it no longer exists as an independant nation, and is wholly reliant on US largese to avoid being plunged back into war.

This is not a George W Bush plan, but a Bush Cabal plan that has spanned decades.

[teryang]

45. Baltics v. Balkans

I think we already dominate the Baltics but I get your well made point.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

46. Bugger! That's an embarrasing gaff!

Yes, I meant the Balkans, thanks for correcting my "Bush"! :-)

[sistersofmercy]

22. It's time for the US government to put on those thinking caps,

perhaps bring a tad of cognition into those hallow heads.

[TheLastMohican]

29. Republicans vs. Democrats?

Aren't they two hands of the same body? Both were practically screaming for Iraqwar before it happened. Which is reinforced by this vote on Syria again. Pick Lieberman, if he were the POTUS, the nuclear armageddon in the Middle East would be the rosy scenario.

[Undemcided]

36. Why the two year delay?

Last week, President George W Bush ended two years of opposition to the legislation and has indicated he will sign the bill.

[davhill]

39. Now wait a few years

And we can have a new triumph over a starved, weakened enemy. How quickly congress has forgotten the mess they authorized in Iraq.

[Loyal]

40. Good

Syria's citizens are treated like shit, too. Bashar Assad has proven links to terrorist groups. Why didn't Bush go after him? :shrug:

[seaglass]

41. OK, I just read an article a week or so ago that the EU

was on the cusp of signing an Association Agreement with Syria and our move to quickly apply sanctions to Syria was an effort to stop this.

Here's some info on this:

http://www.delsyr.cec.eu.int/en/eu_and_syria/eu_syr_association_agreement/2.htm

I'm just amazed that the same day that Syria signed the UN resolution - did not abstain or vote no - that Congress approved sanctions.

[LynneSin]

43. Geez, we can't go to war with them if they are healthy and well-fed

I mean, we sanctioned Iraq's ass back to the stone-age and my mother's card club could have went in there and tookover Iraq

:shrug:

[Loyal]

47. Oh really

I think you just insulted our troops unintentionally by saying that your mother's card club could have done the job they did.

[SOS]

48. Pretty much meaningless

drivel from a lockstep Congress.
Syria does very little business with the US. Almost all of their foreign trade is with the EU. The sanctions won't do anything other than end Syrian intelligence cooperation in regard to Al-Qaeda. So our congress has done nothing to damage the economy of Syria, while making the US less safe.
Just another step on the march to World War III.