Canada wins softwood ruling

[CHIMO]

Ottawa — Canada is claiming a major victory in the softwood lumber dispute with the United States following a key ruling by a NAFTA panel and is demanding quick repayment of billions of dollars in penalties collected by Washington.

An extraordinary challenge panel under the North American free-trade agreement has dismissed U.S. arguments that an earlier NAFTA ruling in favour of Canada violated trade rules.

Analysts have previously said such a win could be the final blow to the U.S. industry's claims that Canadian producers are unfairly subsidized.

A trade official said the battle may not be over, because the Americans still have some options outside NAFTA, including a formal constitutional challenge.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050810.wwood0810/BNStory/National/

What is a constitutional challenge?

[Kagemusha]

1. Declaring the relevant NAFTA section unconstitutional and void?

Good bleeping luck. Unless they can tie it into the executive's military powers in a time of war like with the Geneva Conventions, the constitution itself says treaties will be the law of the land... good luck declaring them unconstitutional, in that case.

[CHIMO]

2. Great

Maybe they will declare that NAFTA is unconstitutional. Now that would be great!

[mom cat]

9. Love it!

[Minstrel Boy]

3. We always seem to,

and somehow the rulings are never observed.

[Bassic]

65. Rulings are meant to restrain poor countries, not big and strong ones like

the U.S.

[CanSocDem]

71. We are not surprised anymore, though...eom

[Canuckistanian]

4. I don't see this changing much

This is just the latest round of challenges. We've won many rulings before and nothing's changed.
The logging and lumber producer's lobby is just too powerful. And this federal government in particular will not disappoint their masters.

[Maple]

5. Going on for years

through both Conservative and Liberal govts.

The solution is to trade elsewhere.

[bvar22]

6. The solution is to withdraw

from NAFTA, CAFTA, the WTO, and negotiate ALL trade treaties on a bilateral basis that gives priority to Environment, LABOR, and protection for the American public.
"Protecting Americans" IS the job of the AMERICAN GOVERNMENT!!!

[Maple]

7. Absolutely not !

Instant poverty for both countries.

Since when have Dems been protectionists??

Free trade with the world is the future...these local treaties are just the beginning.

[bvar22]

8. Sold you a fantasy created by a Corporate Marketing Team!

In the recent past, The Democratic Party could be counted on to protect the wages, jobs, safety, and benefits of the American Worker. Sadly, since 1992, most of the Democratic Party has abandonned the American Worker.


Many proponents argue that FREE TRADE is INEVITABLE. You can't stop Free Trade!
Globalization and the InterNet cannot be stopped!"
This is completely BOGUS BULLSHIT!!!.
Globalization is NOT some NEW THING that is a product of the InterNet. Globalization started when the first primitive man/woman gathered up the stone tools he/she had crafted, journeyed to the next cave, and traded them for some food. Globalization has been happening for thousands of Years and has NOTHING to do with the InterNet. The InterNet makes it possible to access information; it does NOT make it any easier or inevitable to trade goods and services. It does not even make it easier to transfer capital. Wire Transfers have been around for longer than 1/2 century.


The stated GOAL of the FREE TRADERS is to "Remove the Barriers to Trade!" What they fail to mention is that those "Barriers to Trade" were in EVERY case put there for a reason, and that reason is ALWAYS to protect something worthwhile. What the FREE TRADERS really want to do is remove ANY obstacle limiting the ability of their Corporation to increase PROFITS for the owners by any means possible.

The FREE TRADERS are always quick to brand someone a "PROTECTIONIST" if they dare to question the sacred IDOL of Free Trade. Some things are WORTH protecting. PROTECTIONISM is NOT necessarily a bad thing especially when protecting one's family, protecting the ability to earn a decent living for LARGE segments of a nations Workers, protecting the Environment, protecting the cultural assets of a civilization, or protecting a nations natural resources from predatory Corporations!!!

In those respects, I AM A PROUD PROTECTIONIST, and it is time to debunk the myths, broken promises, and outright LIES being marketed by the "FREE TRADE for EVERYONE" salesmen!



Lets look at the REAL WORLD of NAFTA, and stop reading from the glossy sales brochures:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/05/04/28_cafta.html

*The Mexican NAFTA disaster

http://www.aflcio.org/issuespolitics/globaleconomy/ns04192001.cfm

http://radioprogress.org/archives/2005/01/24/colectivo/

http://bernie.house.gov/documents/opeds/20040127181128.asp

http://www.heureka.clara.net/gaia/nafta.htm

http://www.aflcio.org/issues/jobseconomy/globaleconomy/ns08102005.cfm

http://www.aflcio.org/issues/jobseconomy/globaleconomy/battle/




There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON that prevents the US from negotiating each Trade Treaty on a bilateral basis without surrendering our sovereignty to a shady SUPRA Government run by elite RICH Corporatists who do NOT operate in the best interests of the American Public (or ANY LABOR in ANY country). The REALITY of NAFTA (CAFTA, WTO) is that these organizations were created by the Global Corporations to PROTECT the PROFITS of the Global Corporations!

By their works, you shall know them!
The PROOF is IN.
Read the above links and know the TRUTH about Free Trade in its current incarnation!

[Maple]

10. Nonsense

Drop the old-style 30s socialism. It has no meaning anymore.

Try and update yourself to the 21st century.

[bvar22]

11. What was nonsense?

The links I provided describe the REAL WORLD of Free Trade.

Which FACTS that I have provided do you find to be nonsense?
Which links do you find to be nonsense?
Please change your pattern and try to be specific. Provide some sources that support your statements.

The Trade Deficit that has ballooned since NAFTA is not from the 1930s.
The decrease of REAL wages (not just in the US but Mexico too) is not in the 1930s.
The current decrease in LABOR benefits is not in the 1930s.
The LOSS of American Based Industry in not happening in the 1930s.
The decline of LABOR Unions is not happening in the 1930s.
The Environmental Damage in Mexico is not happening in the 1930s.
The Slave Labor Camps and "maquiladoras" aren't in the 1930s.
The RECORD CORPORATE PROFITS without accompanying wage and benefit increases of today are not in the 1930s

None of the following is happening in the 1930s:
#INCREASED US CORN EXPORTS: During NAFTA's first six years, US corn exports to Mexico increased an astounding 1,397%, from $35 million worth in 1993 to $527 million in 1999. On the surface, this sounds like good news for US farmers and for Mexicans looking for lower prices on their staple food. The reality is more complicated.

# FARMERS UPROOTED: Thousands of Mexican peasants, stripped of subsidies and unable to compete with US producers, have been driven from their land. Once able to feed their own families, they must now obtain cash to buy food, despite limited income opportunities.

# POVERTY INCREASE: The World Bank reports that 82% of rural Mexicans were living in poverty in 1998, up from 79% in 1994.

# IMMIGRATION: uprooted Mexican farmers have contributed to increased immigration flows to the United States. According to the Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy, 'In one of free trade's brutal ironies, many of these Mexican trade policy refugees are joining the swelling flow of immigrants who are harvesting and processing US food in often dangerous and low-wage conditions.'

These pictures are NOT from the 1930s:





I am glad that MOST of the Democratic Party has become enlightened to the TRUE NATURE of NAFTA, CAFTA, WTO, and the majority VOTED AGAINST CAFTA in the last session. Without the Corporatist defectors from the DLC, the Democratic Party would have nixxed CAFTA for the very reasons I have provided in my posts!


It is time for YOU to stop throwing around buzzwords like socialist and protectionist and provide some facts and figures.

Do you have any LINKS that support your opinion?
Do you have any pictures that show the Utopia of Free Trade?
Do you have ANY REAL WORLD EXAMPLES?

The Majority of Americans, and the overwhelming majority of the Democratic party agree with me that NAFTA has been a disaster, and worked to PREVENT CAFTA!

[Maple]

12. Hey, it's your funeral

and if you've confused cave trading with globalization, and web multi-trillion dollar financial transactions with some old western union money-by-wire thing, it really WILL be your funeral.

I work in international finance and trade...it is nothing like this 'workers of the world, unite' stuff from these protectionist websites you provide.

A globalized world has no walls and no barriers. If you think you can hide behind one, you're sadly mistaken. You'll simply become poorer and poorer. People can try tribalizing, but it no longer works.

However, if you feel you can't compete, then hiding would no doubt be your first thought.

[bvar22]

16. Once again, you provide NOTHING

to support your position.

However, I DID find this enlightening:
"I work in international finance and trade."

I WILL acknowledge that NAFTA has been very good for a very small percentage of people.
As the REAL WEALTH of 99% of the World's population decreases, the top 1% will do very well indeed!
The Corporate Owners have made a killing (literally) in the last 11 years of NAFTA that HAS NOT BEEN SHARED with their 3rd World hosts.
The promised UTOPIA has been exposed as a HUGE SCAM to ENRICH the already RICH! Sorry, but too many people already know the TRUTH.
Thank GOD our Democrats are coming to their senses!




"if you feel you can't compete"
I will be the FIRST to acknowledge that NO WORKER in the developed WORLD can compete with:

*Slave Wages,

*NO environmental protection,

*No worker safety

*No benefits

offered to Corporate Owners in the 3rd World!





"if you've confused cave trading with globalization, and web multi-trillion dollar financial transactions with some old western union money-by-wire thing, it really WILL be your funeral."

No confusion. That IS the evolution of Globalization! I know you and yours would like everyone to believe that "GLOBALIZATION" is this BRAND NEW THING, and that all of the wisdom of Trade protections that have evolved over centuries NO LONGER APPLY, but that just isn't true!
Every single restriction placed on trade was put in place to protect something valuable.
Each restriction should be reviewed periodically, but striking down EVERY single restriction across the board without individual consideration is just plain FOOLISH! Welcome to the Free Trade World of survival of the RICHEST and MOST POWERFUL! as has been proven after 11 years of NAFTA.





BTW: Love your Death Threat!
"it really WILL be your funeral."

Leave you country, jobs, industry, economy to the mercy of the Global Corporations OR DIE!!!
:rofl: :rofl::rofl: :rofl::rofl: :rofl::rofl: :rofl::rofl: :rofl::rofl: :rofl:


Your broad generalizations from the glossy Corporate Sales Brochures on the Utopia of Free Trade are less than convincing!

SHOW ME A PICTURE!
Where are YOUR facts and figures?

[Maple]

17. I doubt you have any actual interest

you're too busy holding your hands over your ears and la la la-ing

The only thing you're 'protecting' is your job, because you've suddenly realized there is a 6 billion person world out there.

However, I'd suggest if you can't compete on wages, you could try innovation and value added.

But then, you'd have to take your hands away from your ears.

[bvar22]

20. After 11 years of NAFTA....

...the PROOF is available to ANYONE who cares to look.
When is the last time you visited a Work Camp (maquiladoras) in East Tijuana, Mexico?
That would certainly open YOUR eyes! Your nose too.
The stench of ROT, polluted water, and feces is OVERPOWERING!!!

I'm NOT the one covering my ears, eyes, and nose!
More and More people are opening THEIR eyes.
You are a member of a shrinking minority.
Most of us supported NAFTA and the concept of Free Trade in the early 90s.
(we're an easy sell. Ross Perot knew the truth, but we didn't listen)!

How do you explain that the number of people who OPPOSE Free Trade in its current incarnation GROWS DAILY.
Are MORE people going deaf, or are more people seeing the TRUTH.
Will you be the LAST PERSON to DIE for Free Trade?

You address your comments to me personally, but you need to understand that I am only one member of a GROWING MAJORITY!


<quoted from above>
PROTECTIONISM is NOT necessarily a bad thing especially when protecting one's family, protecting the ability to earn a decent living for LARGE segments of a nations Workers, protecting the Environment, protecting the cultural assets of a civilization, or protecting a nations natural resources from predatory Corporations!!!

[Maple]

21. Again I say

:shrug: it's your funeral.

[Bassic]

67. Well then elighten us, why is free trade such a great invention.

In its current incarnation now, not in an embelished one...


Please, I'm curious.

[Bassic]

66. I think you should read-up about the effects of free trade

and globalization on Thrid-World and eastern-european countries.

I suggest a book called "The Globalization of Poverty and the New World Order", by Ottawa U. economics professor Michel Chossudovsky. That's a good book to tour the subject.

[idlisambar]

13. It would be nice if you made an argument once in a while

Your views are obviously not without basis, why not try justifying them?

[Maple]

14. I have tried discussing it many times

but I don't even bother any more. I just get called names, and my ancestry gets questioned, and sooner or later the mods get called in to referee. :D

There is nothing to justify...globalization has been underway since the Berlin wall came down...it's simply reality, and all the chat and slogans in the world won't change it.

Friedman, Gates and many others, whatever you think of their politics, are telling you the truth about globalization...they are soundly booed and then ignored on here.

I've said many times there is a huge freight train coming towards the US, that America is totally unprepared for, but have discovered yelling 'look out'! results in people putting their hands over their ears, so I :shrug:

[CHIMO]

15. I Assume

That you have gone through Karl Polanyi with an open mind.

[Maple]

18. Karl Polanyi

is as dead as Marx.

He was unaware that in his lifetime we had already moved into the information age, and left the industrial world behind.

Communism is dead, and socialism and capitalism are 'dead men walking'. We are moving to a new global economic system, but at the moment we only have the old tools to work with until the process is complete.

[CHIMO]

19. I Presume

That your answer is "yes". Not commenting on your interpretation. Thought that I asked a simple question.

[Maple]

22. Yes, Polanyi, Rand

every economic thinker we've ever had.

However, we're into one of those famous paradigm shifts, the biggest economic one ever...and none of those thinkers are relevant except as history.

[bvar22]

26. I've heard about the New Paradigm!

The New World Order!
The New American Century!

GONE are Representative democratic governments that do the will of the people.
Trade will NOW be governed by secret tribunals that exist over and above mere governments of the people. These anonymous tribunals staffed by Representatives of the Richest Global Corporations who will make decisions over who wins and who loses. Naturally, LABOR and ENVIRONMENT will NOT have a seat at this table.

The World's population will become a cheap labor pool for the new Corporate Emperors to be used and discarded when they get too uppity. Natural Resources and Fresh Water that formerly belonged to the Commonwealth will be privatized by Corporations to be exploited without restraint. The Wealth of the Entire World will finally be available to the top 1% without restrictions or redress.

The complete privatization of Iraq is one of the ongoing processes of the Coporitization of the World.

This is INDEED a NEW PARADIGM, one that must be stopped.

[Maple]

28. There isn't 'a new paradigm'

There are thousands of them. New ways of doing things as our world shrinks, and our technology grows. We can't stay in the last century forever.

It has nothing to do with your paranoia over corporations.

[Doremus]

31. New ways of doing things, definitely. World shrinking, sorry no.

One pesky fact you international financiers and traders tend to forget: peak oil is here.

I have some numbers that trump NAFTA, CAFTA, WTO and the rest of your alphabet soup: $100/bbl crude.

Shrinking world? Actually, in a way, I guess you're right. Everyone's personal world is about to get *much* smaller.

[Maple]

32. Shrink, shrank and shrunk I'm afraid

And oil will be much more than a mere hundred bucks.

So we will switch to a new system and the world will go on.

This isn't the first time we've run out of something you know.

And actually we have lots of oil...we just don't have any more 'cheap' oil.

[achtung_circus]

33. Without cheap oil

perhaps we'll begin to give it some value. We'd still use it, we'd just use it differently.

And it's not about oil, it's about energy.

[Maple]

34. Yup, about energy

and oil isn't the only energy. Anymore than coal and steam was.

[Doremus]

47. Hmmm... perhaps you can tell us how to value something we no longer have.

"Without cheap oil perhaps we'll begin to give it some value."

When cheap oil is gone, the only value it will have is sentimental value. As in 'look at what we had, and look at how we pissed it away.'

"We'd still use it, we'd just use it differently.'

When cheap oil is gone, we will be left with expensive oil. Expensive oil won't get wasted, I guarantee you. :)

"And it's not about oil, it's about energy."

Interesting topic, energy. Why don't you tell us what will take the place of cheap oil?

[achtung_circus]

53. Allow me to rephrase, then.

When oil is no longer cheap we will then give oil the value it should have alayw been give. We will no longer waste it on x, y, & z.

As far as Chapter 11 of NAFTA, see here:

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=141&topic_id=13436&mesg_id=13436>

Do I know what the next major source of energy will be? No. Will there be one? Yes, of course. Will we use it more wisely, than we have oil? I hope for the best and prepare for the worst. I don't buy junk, I don't buy trinkets. Perhaps we will all begin to give value to the eternal verities. Most of the world is changing. I am working to help it change in positive directions.

[Doremus]

44. LOL "So we'll switch to a new system..."

...and globalization will continue unabated?

Have you given any thought to the effects on the global economy when oil prices get up to nosebleed altitudes? Suppose there'll still be boatloads of cheap trinkets lining box store shelves? The Chinese are industrious, but I doubt even they've figured out how to manufacture plastic without petroleum. Unless you're suggesting that our consumerist society won't notice that Wally World's cheap junk isn't cheap anymore? Or maybe you think our nation of patriots will buy in spite of high prices because "globalization is good for us"?

Of course that's only *one* aspect of peak oil that makes your globalization rainbow a mirage. When food is scarce, people tend not to care about their next trip to the mall.

Yes, oil isn't running out. But the cheap oil is. And there are no cheap alternatives.

[Maple]

45. Yup

Life goes on I'm afraid in spite of all the doom and gloom on here.

It just changes. It always has.

Yes, plastic can be made without oil, and malls are neither permanent nor mandatory fixtures of civilization.

I'm sorry you're going to have to live through change you feel unable to cope with.

[Doremus]

49. I'm unable to cope? :)

If admitting there's a problem is part of the solution, I'd guess I'm better equipped to cope with the coming adversity than one who appears to be in a state of complete denial.

So things "just change," eh?

Quite a scholarly theory you've got going there. :) Care to expand on it any further?

[Maple]

52. It's what you appear to be saying

Apparently when oil 'runs out' we revert to the caves. Or thatched huts in the Dark Ages or something.

'The one sure thing you can count on in Life...is change.'

Paradoxical as that sounds, that's reality.

You cannot be frozen in time, or in amber.

'Groundhog Day' was only a movie.

So you have to cope with reality.

Evolution is popular on here....the phrase is, I believe, 'adapt or die.'

[Doremus]

55. 'Adapt or die' - yes. 'Shop til you drop' - no.

I've no doubt civilization will muddle through.

However, we weren't talking about the prospects for civilization. Globalization was the topic. You were saying that globalization would continue unhindered by such trivial influences as the unavailability of cheap energy.

You also said "things change" and "adapt or die," which though useful (if more than slightly trite), don't say a whole hell of a lot.

I'm still waiting to hear about your miracle waiting in the wings. Or is the "miracle" your boundless, baseless faith?

[Maple]

56. Who is talking about shopping?

I hate shopping.

I was discussing globalization...which involves a great deal more than your beloved plastic trinkets.

Energy is available. Both expensive and cheap. The choice is yours.

You can add that to 'things change' and 'adapt or die'

Why are you complicating a perfectly straightforward fact?

Are you living in a cave? Or in Rome? Or in the British Empire?

Do you spend your days hunting or at sword practice?

Things change...two words to sum it up.

And there is no point trying to use swords in a world of missiles...so you adapt or die.

No miracles, no faith...what the hell does religion have to do with anything??

You are a long way from free trade and globalization I'm afraid.

[Doremus]

60. Ah, so globalization doesn't involve global commerce!

<banging head>

Silly me! No wonder the unavailability of affordable energy won't matter in our new world order!

As long as there are people (hungry and thirsty being irrelevant adjectives here) --and a few wealthy people to preside over those other people-- globalization will reign!

Who needs energy? Long live globalization!



<thanks for the chuckles and goodnight>

[Maple]

61. Yes, it does

but global commerce is only a small part of what it involves.

I don't know why the word 'globalization' is always so misunderstood on here. Maybe it's deliberate, so we can have yet another thread railing against 'evil corporations' and boosting 'workers'. The old mantra of 'make the rich pay', and the deification of the muscular sweaty worker gets aired a hundred times a day on here to no avail.

Globalization also involves the UN, and climate change, and international law, and peace or war, and science, and space travel and a thousand other things.

Energy is both available and cheap, and we will survive 'peak oil' just fine. You don't have coal furnaces anymore, but they were the norm when I was a kid. Yet, here we still are, chugging away.

And here's a thought...if you don't get over this urge to lead a conversation astray instead of trying to find real solutions, you won't be chuckling when the freight train hits ya.

All I can do is tell people about what the rest of the planet is doing...and trust me, it's not playing at cuteness on a chatsite...but the rest is up to you.

Enjoy your nights sleep...you won't do so in future when globalization comes crashing through your door.

[Doremus]

72. You're right about one thing. There is a freight train coming.

And it will derail your one-world government as if it were a squeaky handcar.

But just out of curiosity: Globalization also involves the UN, and climate change, and international law, and peace or war, and science, and space travel and a thousand other things.

Let's take a look at each one of those activities:

The UN - Seeing as how it already exists, do you expect globalization to change it somehow? Disparate countries with very different needs will come together and sing Kumbaya because globalization has 'made us all one'?

Climate change - Again, this is occurring without the assistance of the new world order. Do you suppose the US will decide to sign Kyoto because 'it's good for our new friends'?

International Law - will continue to be 'international law.' Again, I fail to see how globalization can have any substantive influence. Disparate countries and peoples necessitate disparate laws.

Peace and War - See 'The UN' above.

Science and Space Travel - Privately funded or government sponsored? The former falls into the realm of commerce. The latter -- see "The UN" above.

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, the fact is that none of the activities above would be possible without one of two scenarios:

1. Global commerce continues to grow and expand. Money does indeed make the world go 'round.

2. Without global commerce and the incentives/benefits it provides, a one-world government would only come about through the use of force.

Now here is the trump card. The fate of international trade hinges directly on the ability to efficiently and inexpensively distribute goods across the globe. The dawning of the post-oil age brings with it (among many other things) the end of efficient transportation. As you noted (albeit sarcastically), coal at one time was widely used and no doubt will again become an important alternate fuel. But whether the fuel of choice is coal, nuclear or any other commodity, the following questions are apt. How long will it take to replace the current fleet of ships devoted to international commerce? How will those ships be built without cheap oil to operate the machinery to build them, to make the raw materials they require? To retool or build the infrastructure needed to support them in the ports? How will we create infrastructure without cheap oil to create the raw materials? This list can go on and on, and I haven't even addressed air travel yet. You get the picture.

Number 2 above needs no further explanation. I would only ask with incredulity why anyone would look forward to a life of servitude -- unless one were planning to be part of the ruling elite, that is.

[Bassic]

68. The fact of tha matter is that job losses

wage losses, growing unemployment and general misery are spreading around thew world because of free trade... the problem is mostly resident in the way it is conducted by rich countries, the IMF, the World Bank and the WTO.

Those are facts, and it is unacceptable.

You are seriously deluding yourself if you think we are helping the third-world here, and however you try to comfort yourself by sayoing we are not listening to your great wisdom, you don't semm to bother yourself too much about the reality of what is happenning out there.

[idlisambar]

29. what characterises this new system?

What are the contrasts between it and capitalism?

[Maple]

30. No currencies for one

No 'cash' as such, but 'credits', and a global 'economy' in which goods, services and people move freely at will.

The world as one country.

Dependent on knowledge, information, technology, brains.

The production of 'goods' will be a robot job.

A minimum basic 'income' for everyone...added to by their education, knowledge and experience.

It's hard putting together such a thing in the middle of the current world chaos, but that's what's forming.

[meganmonkey]

36. Oh goodness

why don't you drop the right wing talking points and go eat some genetically modified food :eyes:

[Maple]

37. Well if I was rightwing I might

however, I'm not. I'm a centrist. Left and rightwings died with the Cold War. Repetition of the names won't bring them back.

And I have no doubt you've eaten GM food today. As has everyone else.

[meganmonkey]

39. Don't play with definitions - I know better

I have eaten hybrid food today, but no genetically modified food as far as the currently common definition of GMOs. I know where my food comes from.

I have to go to bed. I am not even going to get into the issue of 'free trade' with you right now.

G'night.

[Maple]

41. LOL sorry it's GM food

Has been since the day you were born.

But if that helps you swallow it, feel free.

[Spazito]

23. NAFTA, as it currently exists, does little for anyone but

big corporations. It allows corporations like Barrack Gold to contest environmental laws in California, allows the US to sneer at it's rulings, etc.

Trade agreements with strict environmental and labour rules might benefit the average citizen but NAFTA is not one of those agreements.

[Maple]

25. That's dogma

not reality.

NAFTA in fact does have protections. Clinton signed them.

[Spazito]

38. No, NAFTA does not have the needed protections

what is in there currently is so watered down as to be totally useless. Google the Barrack Gold/California issue and you will see how it works.

I love how the word 'dogma' is used to negate a position when one has nothing else to offer in rebuttal.

[Maple]

42. Clinton signed it

as did the other two.

Nobody said it was perfect...but then nothing is.

Beliefs that don't change with the times or conditions is dogma.

And the beliefs of a century ago, while hot stuff then, simply don't work today.

[Spazito]

43. So what if Clinton signed it, that doesn't make it any different

Clinton is not the posterchild for sustainable development in any way. Here is a good paper on Chapter 11, one glaring example of what is wrong with NAFTA as it currently exists:

http://www.law.mcgill.ca/elmftaaconference/eng/documents/aaron_cosbey.pdf

[Maple]

46. Well see, here's the deal

it's in effect.

Conduct yourself accordingly.

[Spazito]

48. Wow, I am awed by the breathtakingly detailed rebuttal!

I am conducting myself accordingly, trying to change what doesn't work.

[Maple]

50. Twas the only rebuttal necessary

People are still quibbling over the Magna Carta, the Bible, the Constitution and Lord Durham's report, and giving their ideas on how it SHOULD have been written.

If govts waited for all the verdicts, arguments, additions and subtractions to be in on any given item, nothing would ever get done.

So we go with what we have. It's in effect.

Voila

[arikara]

24. Canada win another round

but it won't do any good. We've been winning this particular battle for years and it just keeps getting ignored. I remember reading something a couple of years ago that Newt Gingrich or one of the other old repuke dino's (I forget who) has a woodlot and he was the prime reason for this dispute because it made him megabucks. If anyone remembers this, can you please refresh my memory?

And by the way... not all of us Canucks believe these so-called "free" trade agreements are a good thing. Trade is a fact of life, but it must be fair. This race to the bottom that is taking place now is unsustainable.

[Maple]

27. 'Race to the bottom'

is another one of those meaningless slogans.

Like 'freedom isn't free' and so on.

China is now the world's factory...and no, the west can't compete with them on price.

And in China, workers are already raising their wages, and improving their conditons. Eventually we'll all come out even, but there will certainly be social dislocation during the change-over.

In the meantime you need to use brains and innovation and value added.

Robots can do manufacturing ya know. It's not difficult. And eventually robots will be the ONLY ones doing manufacturing. Humans will be doing more creative things.

[Minstrel Boy]

35. "Humans will be doing more creative things"

I think we missed the turn off to that utopia about 60 years ago.

"Race to the bottom" has plenty of meaning to me.

[Maple]

40. 1945?

War just ended, boom times were coming in 'rebuilding' the mess.

[Doremus]

51. How long will China be 'the world's factory'

...when it's food and shelter that people need in a post-oil society, and imported trinkets are merely a bad memory of our many overindulgences?

Robots indeed. LOL

[Maple]

54. Until there is a cheaper country to go to

China is already losing contracts to other countries in fact, just as Mexico did.

In Japan they have an entire factory run by robots. Robots are working in many places in US factories.

Are you not aware of this?

[Doremus]

58. China, Taiwan, Mexico, they're all irrelevant

Am I aware that there are robots? Why yes, thank you.

Are you aware that up ahead, beyond the next belching behemoth full of robotic employees cranking out plastic widgets, is a wide chasm waiting to eat blind financiers/traders?

One ludicrous question deserves another I always say. :)


Turning in, early day tomorrow. If you come up with any more trite cliches, let me know. :hi:

[Maple]

59. Robots and

nanofab etc...yup, it won't be people doing it after awhile. Bloody boring anyhow. Waste of a life.

I'm neither a financier nor a trader.

Many on here seem to be blind though...can't see the freight train comin' down the tracks.

Maybe it's your concern over ordinary verbal shorthand like cliches that's blinding you

[ConcernedCanuk]

57. did EVERYBODY miss it?? MAPLE hit the nail on the head in his first post

.
.
.

"The solution is to trade elsewhere"

exactly

and we are starting to do just that . .

China has been sniffing around many of our resources AT CANADA's REQUEST

and yup - including o-i-l and g-a-s

we have contractual commitments of too many of our natural resources with the US, BUT MANY ARE COMING UP FOR RENEWAL in the near future . .

specifically electricity and natural gas - we have over committed to the point where when we run short (as in electricity recently) because of an unplanned surge in demand - we are buying back OUR OWN RESOURCES from the US at outrageous prices,

The mad cow fiasco, well, a bonanza (sorry Hoss and Little Joe) for US cattlemen prompted Canada to approach other markets with surprising success

Won't be long before other industries will venture cross the oceans with more vigor - heck, might even be cheaper and FASTER with all the extra "security" at our borders now that the Boy-King has made us all "safer" . . .

Maple was right on

Solution is to sell elsewhere,

SAVE the millions in litigation with the US. Treat the US export headaches like a bad ex. Leave 'em behind and get on with life . . .

Dat's my Canuk opinion anyhoo . .

[Maple]

62. I've never understood

why Canada has insisted on trading mainly with the US.

It's neither easy nor cheap.

What has the fight over lumber alone cost us?

In the meantime, there is China, India, Russia, the EU....

We need to spread our wings. The US isn't the only game in town anymore.

[achtung_circus]

63. At the risk of beating a dead horse

the BSE situation has meant some short term pain for Canadian agriculture. In the long term, however, Canadian slaughter capacity is increasing for the first time in years. In less than 1 year Canada will be self sufficient in slaughter capacity. That is a lot of cattle not moving to the US and a lot of jobs moving to Canada. There have been huge job losses in the US and plants closing that will never open again. Their machinery has been bought at fire sale prices and is being installed in Canadian plants.

The US obstinacy over BSE has hurt their reentry into global (there's that nasty word) markets. Canada is much better poised to capture Asian markets, including Japan, which is happier with the Canadian meat inspection regime that the US regime. Japan has traditionally been a huge buyer of US beef.

As life improves in China meat consumption will increase and Canada will be better placed to capture that market as well.

It's a small example of the dangers of protectionism.

[ConcernedCanuk]

64. "why Canada has insisted on trading mainly with the US" - I'm afraid

.
.
.

that despite the many many "nice" Canuks

we still have too many that would have joined the Iraqi slaughter with glee

and some politicians that would rejoice to see the Murikkkan flag flying instead of our Maple Leaf in Ottawa . .

THOSE people are OUR terrorists

Dat's my Canuk opinion anyhoo . .

[Spazito]

69. Totally agree with you on that!

I am seeing signs that Canadian companies and the government are FINALLY seeking out other countries to export our goods. The more we diversify our choices for export, the less dependent we become on the US to purchase our goods.

[kwolf68]

70. bvar

As an economist (former, back in school to change careers) I want to say I agree with you.

Globalization is exactly what you said it is...It's about cost externalization. It's about making those not privy to a transaction responsible for bearing the cost of bringing a product to market. It subverts environmental, human rights, labor, advertising, safety, etc. laws...Laws that were ostensibly put into place due to deleterious circumstances.

For an example of what the world is in store for I submit late 1800s America…A nation full of greed, exploitation, slave labor, environmental decay, industrial deaths, monopolies, 70 hour work weeks, depressed wages, and robber-baron rule.

Trouble is America was totally free and eventually the people, populists, activists, and in many cases radical leftist rose up and demanded accountability from the corporate oligarchy. We had a free press and a free flow of information. We had rights to organize and rights to assemble.

What is going to happen and what is happening is American jobs are being exported to areas where the people have no power, no rights and there is no sensible regulatory policy to protect the earth or the people. Too often, these nations have a willing national government that will and/or can use military force to suppress worker dissent. Basically, the corporate rules and profiteers have what they want from “old America” in the name of an open, exploitable environment and millions of people who will work for a buck a day.

What they no longer have to worry about is a worker or populist uprising.

American workers are being told by the blinded we must “compete” with these other nations. Compete? Don’tcha love that word? What kind of competition is it when the bar is mere pennies a day, no health care, 70+ hour work weeks, abysmal working conditions? The answer? That isn’t competition; that is complete and total slavery.

I used to be a total free trader and I still believe trade between nations must take place, but trade policy should be determined by the home nation, not by some abstract 3-person non-accountable commission appointed by ConAgra, Exxon, and Pfizer. Globalization is a bastard son of fair trade that should be taken out back and shot.

[bvar22]

73. The BITTER LESSONS learned from NAFTA !!

1) Capital can move much faster than LABOR!

2) Capital has no conscience!

3) Capital CAN and WILL use its speed advantage to outrun Environmental Accountability and Human Rights Responsibility!



I'm glad you mentioned the Robber Baron Era. One needs only read the History of the USA from 1880 to 1929 to learn that Unrestrained Capitalism is a Failed Economic System!

There is one HUGE difference today. In the Era of the Robber Barons, the people were represented by a government, and the predatory Corporations were eventually brought to heel by the people (LABOR) acting through our government. Under the Free Trade Treaties, a SUPRA GOVERNMENT is created that is over and above our democratic(?) government. The SUPRA Governments of NAFTA, CAFTA, WTO answer ONLY to the huge Global Corporations; they are BEYOND the REACH of the people.
There is a valid Constitutional Argument that these Trade Treaties are illegal since they submit the sovereignty of the US to another, outside authority!


I am not an economist, so thanks for the support. I have merely traveled in Mexico and SEEN the damages wrought by NAFTA and Unrestrained Capitalism on a very vulnerable population.
OTOH, a very small group of people are getting very rich, so it all balances out!:sarcasm:


There is absolutely NO REASON why Trade Treaties cannot be created on a bi-lateral basis, administered by the Representative governments of each country, with protections for LABOR and HUMAN RIGHTS!!! Under Bi-Lateral Trade Treaties, the US would retain the ability to enforce Environmental and Human (LABOR) Rights. This ability is sacrificed under NAFTA, CAFTA, WTO, etc.