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dooner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 07:37 PM
Original message
AP: Grieving Mother's War Protest Draws Notice
Grieving Mother's War Protest Draws Notice
By ANGELA K. BROWN, Associated Press Writer
Wednesday, August 10, 2005

The mother of a fallen U.S. soldier who started a quiet roadside peace vigil near President Bush's ranch last weekend is drawing supporters from across the nation. Dozens of people have joined her and others have sent flowers and food. One activist called her "the Rosa Parks of the anti-war movement."
<snip>
Although a few residents have complained about the protesters, no one has been arrested because the group has been on the public right-of-way, said Capt. Kenneth Vanek of the McLennan County Sheriff's Office.
<snip>
On Wednesday, a coalition of anti-war groups in Washington called on Bush to speak with Sheehan, who they say has helped to unify the peace movement.
<snip>
Although she doesn't expect Bush to meet with her in Crawford, she says if he did she would ask him whether he has encouraged his twin daughters to enlist. "I want him to quit using my son's death to justify more killing," she said. "The only way he can honor my son's death is to bring the troops home."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2005/08/10/national/w162702D41.DTL
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LiberalVoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. One question.
How exactly are we supposed to bring the troops home without leaving Iraq in chaos?

This isn't meant to be a smartass comment. Im serious as to what options the US has.
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cliss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Same way we got out of VietNam.
With helicopter, with jeeps, with armored vehicles.

Iraq existed before the US marched in. Iraq was economically in much better shape THEN than it is now.

Why do we feel that we are the policemen of the world?
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LiberalVoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Im sorry but thats a bullshit excuse.
I dont feel we're policemen of the world but we fucked up Iraq and does anyone honestly believe that if the US mili leaves Iraq things will get better then they are now?
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movonne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. How much worse can it get...do you possible think we can win..
What are we going to make better, they do not want us there and will not stop fighting until we get out..I do think we owe them money for infrastructures and to clean up what we did..
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LiberalVoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 05:24 AM
Response to Reply #19
38. Not alone we cant.
Edited on Thu Aug-11-05 05:25 AM by LiberalVoice
We would need help. REAL HELP anyway, from a real coalition. The UN is the only political/military body that could help remedy this situation. If america pulls out Al-Qaeda takes over Iraq.
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 05:42 AM
Response to Reply #38
41. You are right
This intervention has so thoroughly screwed things up. Instead of being patient and supporting the growing democratic oppostion to Saddam we have unleased the monsters of the dark pit. Where Iraq was once a struggling but vibrant secular nation headed by a tyrant whose powers were on the wane we now have chaos. Getting out - as we must - it not an easy prospect. And it is a cheap shot for people to say lets leave it to their now thriving democratic governement. Whatever BushCo says we know it is chaos. Having created this nightmare we do owe it to the Iraqi people to work on getting out in the most positive way.
(All power to the Crawford protesters for bringing attention to the crisis.)
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 05:50 AM
Response to Reply #38
43. Nope
Iran takes over Iraq and that, my friend, is already a done deal. Whether they allow Al Queda or whatever represents them at this time to stay or not, that is the only question.
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LiberalVoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. In either case...
It would make america...not to mention the rest of the planet a much more dangerous place to live. So in either outcome if we pull out we lose.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #44
61. You need to examine who the REAL terrorists are. nt
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #61
79. The Chief Chimp Terrorist
"FREEDOM IS ON THE MARCH"

Thousands of Gold Star mothers YET TO BE CREATED BY THE AWOL CHIMPANZEE
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #44
70. then what's your beef?
we're (^&%ed either way! WE NEED TO GET OUT! NOW!
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #44
75. We stay in - the violence gets worse.
We leave - and let the international community handle it all without the billions going to Halliburton/Cheney.

We don't pull out NOW we lose. Big Time.

Only way to begin to end the violence is we pull out NOW.
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KeepItReal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #38
67. FYI: One of the places they blew up in Iraq was HQ for the U.N.
They killed one of the U.N.'s best guys in that attack in Iraq.

These Iraqi "insurgents" will not recognize nor respect the U.N. any more than they do the USA.

That said, if we simply leave there will be chaos (AKA civil war). I don't know how you have a positive outcome from that. An anti-U.S., pro-Iran, Southern Iraq is Bush & Co's nightmare, I guess.

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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #38
73. There will be NO help until the US and Britain pull out...
why should other countries step in so bush can have his permanent bases and US oil companies have the oil?

The US and Britain should go to the UN, promise to pull out immediately and hand the bases over to the Iraqis as well as pay war reparations for an illegal invasion and occupation. Until that happens, and it won't' no country is going to help bush out of this quagmire, imo.
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jayctravis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
33. I believe they've made it clear they want us to leave.
And when their official government wants our help, I'm sure they'll ask for it. Don't they have a thriving democracy now?
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LiberalVoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 05:23 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. No they don't.
Am I the only one that believes the insurgency will continue whether US troops were present in Iraq or not? The idea that if we left the insurgency would end the killings is ridiculous.
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #37
46. How long do you want us to stay there?
Alot of people said the same thing about Vietnam; "It was a mistake to go in, but now we have to "stay the course". That's why over 50,000 American troops were lost there. Do you think we should stay five years and see if things get better? How about 10 years? 20? 30?... How many troop fatalities should we accept?
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LiberalVoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #46
49. As long as it takes.
Im not saying America should be the only country there. But mark my words...If we just leave like so many of you suggest we'll all pay for it.
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anitar1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #49
68. We are already "paying" for it. n/t
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #49
71. are you volunteering?
n/t
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #49
76. When are you volunteering to go?
Inquiring minds would like to know.

Otherwise it's all just bullshit by you.

Bring our troops home NOW!

How do you ask a soldier to be the last one TO DIE FOR A LIE?
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 05:49 AM
Response to Reply #11
42. How's this for an analogy
Who is the worst person to help a rape victim get over a rape? That's right, the rapist.

Yes, Iraq will fall into a bloody civil war if we leave now. They will fall into a bloody civil war in 10 years if that's when we leave. We have fucked them. It's about time we stopped.

We need to hand this over to the UN and then we need to bring all of the senior officials in this government up on war crimes.

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LiberalVoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #42
45. Then we do not disagree.
Im all for the US pulling out if military control is handed over to the UN. I wish we never would have invaded in the first place and we owe it to the Iraqi's to remedy the plague we have thrust upon them.
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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #42
86. Ummm-it's gonna get bloodier than this?
Nope.
Evory time some bloomin idiot says, "fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them over here" everybody "over there" hears it too. That's why the ranks of the insurgents are swelling so rapidly.
Perhaps the only hope is that the military will mutiny...
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shanti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #5
69. EXACTLY!
we did it once, we can do it again!
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dooner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Iraq has been in increasingly violent chaos since we got there..
and thousands of innocent Iraqi civillians are dead. What good are we doing there? Isn't it obvious we are creating the violence?
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LiberalVoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. But you cant possibly believe things will get better if we leave? nt
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dooner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. for whom?
Better for the US soldiers and their families.
Possibly better for the Iraqis who are getting blown up in our crossfire.
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LiberalVoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. For the Iraqi's.
And your last sentence should not have the word possibly in it. It will only get worse for those Iraqi's that wish to live in peace if we pull out. I know they dont have it now but if we leave Iraq will become the old Afghanistan x 10.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. How is the "old" Afghanistan
better than the new Afghanistan?

You do know we are still fighting there, don't you?
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LiberalVoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. I didnt say it was better.
And im not sure how you thought I did. In fact my entire post/point was that Iraq would be worse.
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dooner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Your question is a fair one... and I asked the same question
about 1,995 dead US soldiers ago (or shortly after the invasion of Iraq). Even though I was always against the war, I didn't think it would be fair to Iraq to leave them in chaos. But the chaos has only gotten worse over time. And more and more Iraqi women, children, old men, grandmothers, babies, are now dead because of US. Because our bombs aren't so smart. And because we can't tell the difference between people. And because people don't want us there any more. Why are we there?

I don't want this blood on my hands. I never did. It was an illegal war, and there is no justification for staying there, no matter how much worse it gets after we leave. We have no real idea if it would be better or worse for the Iraqi people. I only know that we were wrong to go in there, and the longer we stay there and torture and kill people, the bigger our crime.
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info being Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #12
72. I have no doubt it would be better if we leave
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #12
77. You can't possilbly believe that things will get better if we stay!
The record speaks for itself.

We are staying now. Things are getting WORSE now.

It doesn't make any sense that if we stay, things will get better for anybody except Halliburton and Cheney.
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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Like we've done so much to bring stability to Iraq with our illegal
and immoral invasion.
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LiberalVoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. Well thats a mistake we're going to have to continue to pay for.
Americans as a whole were dumb enough to fall for the presidents lies. And as much asI hate that we're over there it isnt right to leave those people defenseless against militants who, once the US is out of there, would turn to destroying any semblace of an Iraqi govt. and building there own fundamentalist regime.
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Your argument is weak
I would ask you how much of our children's blood are you willing to shed so the Kurds, the Shia and the Sunni can be forced to live together? These groups have fought for hundreds of years and they will continue to fight long after we are gone.

Short of leaving immediately, the US needs to make a huge course alteration and make Iraq a truly international effort. Even that will not correct the historical mistakes made by colonial powers when forming the country of Iraq and will probably fail.

The simplest reason for us to leave is that history has proved again and again that people that have lived in an area for thousands of years know we will eventually go home and they will still be there.
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LiberalVoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 05:30 AM
Response to Reply #22
39. My argument is weak?
"The simplest reason for us to leave is that history has proved again and again that people that have lived in an area for thousands of years know we will eventually go home and they will still be there."

If its so simple and they're just so aware of this...Then why are the bothering to fight us now.

Iraq is no longer just be a battleground for the Sunni, Shia, and Kurdish people. And the fight is not about stopping them from killing eachother. Its about not making a formerly noncombative country the Al-Qaeda headquarters in Iraq.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #39
78. Yes your argument is not only "weak" the facts prove WE are right.
The situation gets worse the longer we have stayed.

The facts are on our side - BRING THE TROOPS HOME NOW!

A definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

Try something different to bring about a different result - BRING THE TROOPS HOME NOW!
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #39
82. I would offer this
Edited on Thu Aug-11-05 12:26 PM by Vinnie From Indy
If its so simple and they're just so aware of this...Then why are the bothering to fight us now.


Because we are there is why they are killing us. When we are gone, they will fight amongst themselves again. Hundreds of years of historical conflict won't stop because we arrive on the scene, kill thousands upon thousands of people and lay some righteous liberal ideas on them. Is imposing our American values on Iraq worth bankrupting the US, killing tens of thousands of our children and making us a global pariah? Is it worth killing hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis who want to live just as much as you do?

As for preventing Iraq from becoming a haven for Al Queda, I would offer that many of the groups in Iraq are very much in oppostion to Al Queda's goals and will resist the group when we leave.
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Rhiannon12866 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. We need to get out. We can't do any good by staying there.
We are seen by the Iraqi people as occupiers and those who would never think of resorting to violence are joining the insurgency or contributing (financially) to it. We need to get out and bring in a multi-national force of NATO and U.N. peacekeepers to attempt to restore order until the Iraqi people can govern themselves.:-(

Bush Sr., while far from perfect, had a wiser idea. During his Gulf War, he organized a real coalition which included other Arab countries. Shrub has gone it alone, hence the resentment. In 1996, on the fifth anniversary of the first Gulf War, Bush Sr. said that the reason that he didn't take out Saddam when he had the chance was because it would have turned the entire Arab world against us and destabilized the region. Prophetic words. Too bad that his son isn't a better student of history.:-(
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shaniqua6392 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Rumsfeld just said
that there were 170,000 trained soldiers this week. We have 135,000 troops there (not including "coalition" fighters). That should mean we should be able to leave Iraq now. Unless Rummy was lying. That country will be in chaos no matter what anyway.
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. "Leaving Iraq in chaos"
is the only option. It's in chaos now. There will be chaos when we leave, perhaps more. But our leaving will change the character of the chaos.

Although it's likely Iranian troops will move in after us to support the shi'ah government after we leave. The thought of the Sunni guerrillas overthrowing the shi'ah in Iraq is the worst case scenario for Iran.

Eventually, the Iranians may stomp down the Sunni guerrillas, something we can never do.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. The USA is fucking Iraq
It is gettig worse daily as long as the US is there. Where is the harm in leaving?
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LiberalVoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #13
40. "Where is the harm in leaving?"
Think about that question for awhile and then get back to me.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #40
47. I don't need to think about it
The USA is providing no security to any Iraqis save those puppets in the Green Zone. The rest of the time our troops are just trying to stay alive. Now you tell me what is the point of them staying. The USA is a catalyst for the violence! I thought that was pretty clear by now.

:eyes:
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LiberalVoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #47
50. So we leave...
Then what? what do you think will happen in Iraq? Build themselves a democratic government maybe? Praise us for leaving? We have caused this chaos in Iraq and it is our responsibility to stop it. With the UN or not(I would personally love to see the UN come in and help us). We cannot leave the innocent Iraqi people in the mess we have made....And I think its disgusting that you would think it would be ok to do so.

The american people were dumb enough to fall for *'s shit and now as unfortunate and sad and terrible as it is we are paying for those mistakes.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. So I am disgusting?
there are many plans that have been put forth to end the US occupation (Sen. Kennedy's plan??) and give Iraq back to the Iraqis without involvement of US troops. I have the links but why would I bother to post them to someone who wants to insult me?
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LiberalVoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #52
53. Well what would you call such indifference?
"What harm could it do?" You said it. Not me.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. it isn't indifference for cripes sakes
Edited on Thu Aug-11-05 08:18 AM by leftchick
It is reality. The USA is the catalyst for the violence to Iraqis in Iraq. Iraqis are being blown to smithereens daily because the USA is there PERIOD.

Just ask these folks....



Holding American flags, a demonstration of dozens of Iraqis, calling themselves The White Revolutionists Movement, gather outside the US military base demanding the withdrawal of military occupation, Thursday, Aug. 11, 2005, in Baqouba, 60 kms. (35 miles) north of Baghdad, Iraq. (AP Photo/Mohammed Adnan)



Tearing American and Israeli flags, a demonstration by dozens of Iraqis, calling themselves The White Revolutionists Movement, gather outside the US military base demanding the withdrawal of military occupation, Thursday, Aug. 11, 2005, in Baqouba, 60 kms. (35 miles) north of Baghdad, Iraq. (AP Photo/Mohammed Adnan)

Have a great day in your one dimensional world.
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Pretty_in_CodePink Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #50
84. We do have a responsibility to the Iraqi people and must
be accountable for the mess we caused. Unfortunately, just staying there doing the same things are not going to stop the chaos. I don't think most of us want to just leave the mess, but it seems clear that we cannot bring a solution to this using the same tactics and mindset that created it.

Why does the US effort have to be military? Maybe we should just cough up the cash currently going to the military effort and Halliburton. Create a more humanitarian approach.

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Patchuli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #50
88. I have a couple of points I disagee with you on
One is that it's "disgusting" to think about pulling out. The Iraqis WANT US GONE. The fighting will not stop if we stay, the fighting may stop somewhat if we leave and show some good faith. What's the point of staying in your opinion? We are not fixing their infrastructure that WE destroyed. They have no clean drinking water, they don't have electricity, etc. Halliburton has been overpaid handsomely (among other big hog corporations) to fix these things and they haven't. We are not doing these people any good. And the problem is we are too small a force to do what the Chimperor thinks we should do. As soon as our soldiers clear insurgents out of a town, they have to leave having not enough soldiers to leave to guard the town and the insurgents are back before we're barely out of there and on to the next town.

The worst thing to get U.N. help that Chimpie did was to back-door appoint that freaking maniac, Bolton. How much help you think we'll garner with his big mouth running and insulting the rest of the U.N.?

My second disagreement with your point is this statement: "The american people were dumb enough to fall for *'s shit and now as unfortunate and sad and terrible as it is we are paying for those mistakes."

I am an American as are my family and friends and not ONE OF US "fell" for anything we were lied to about by Bush. We protested against this war from the start and unfortunately, we have to pay for the stupidity of others not so wise. Don't be lumping us all in the same stupid pot, please.

WE MUST PULL OUT OF IRAQ. It's definitely not going to end until we do. Even Al Qaida warned the Chimp but of course, when has that ever stopped the asshole from doing what HE wanted?!
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #40
80. Exactly - we should BRING THE TROOPS HOME NOW!
The sooner we leave, the sooner the healing can begin.

The carnage and violence and "chaos" is increasing moment by moment with every passing second we stay.

Glad to see you've seen the truth in our argument.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. I suggest we turn Bush and his henchmen over to the Iraqis...
...with the understanding that all US troops can leave peacefully. Why should the degree of morality and honor espoused by a country's leader be determined by how well that leader is protected by his capitol city?
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Sub Atomic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
34. I, for one, would pay every single penny I own to watch
Bush and his entire mis-Administration get buried up to their necks in the sand and then stoned to death by the public.

Not that I'm endorsing that kind of behavior or anything. It just sounds like something I would like to witness.
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NeoGreen Donating Member (299 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
20. I think that * needs to go to the UN...
with hat in hand and publicly admit that he made a mistake, that we are in over our heads, ask for forgiveness and support from the UN to help fix the mess that he made.

I think that if the rest of the world pulled together Iraq could (with a little bit of luck) become a pillar of Mid-East Democracy, but only after Bush admits that he made a mistake.
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 07:32 AM
Response to Reply #20
48. That's never gonna happen.
The best bet if is General Clark gets in in '08 and makes overtures to NATO/UN/neighbouring countries to take over peacekeeping duties. He's the only guy with the knowlege, connections and attitude to possibly make it work. Otherwise it's just more of the same.
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
24. Iraq is now in chaos and will be into the
forseeable future. It makes no difference if we are there or not, so we might as well not be there. Bush opened a can of worms and let loose the warring factions that Saddam had under control.
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Turn CO Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
31. I wouldn't say we should pull out the engineers or accountants...
just the troops who stand around holding guns. We need to give an honest and real indication that we are no longer going to occupy Iraq in any longterm way. I honestly believe the "insurgency" would slow down to barely a crawl if we began a pullout -- then construction work could really get underway.

In fact, let's just give the Iraq government some of the "reconstruction" money a month at a time -- Iraq has plenty of engineers and contractors of their own, who happen to seriously need the work. I don't care if people say we can't trust them with the money or not. Let them rebuild it themselves (with the money the Congress has already budgeted), and not let anymore US contractors profit in any way from this war.

---
tcb
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LiberalVoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 05:21 AM
Response to Reply #31
36. What evidence is their to suggest the insurgency would slow down?
Last I saw they were targetting civilians aswell. If the US were to completely pull out of Iraq the insurgency would crush any semblance of a democratic govt. and install a dictatorship controlled by most probably Muqtada Al-Sadr.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
55. It's already in chaos.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
74. Chaos. Iraq is in it now. The sooner we leave the better.
Like lancing a boil - all the shit will come out, but to stay and let it fester, it will only be worse when we finally DO decide to leave.

Bring our troops home NOW.

The "chaos", violence, etc. will still happen no matter what we do.

Just don't need to have our solders in the crossfire.

Bring our troops home NOW!
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Lone_Star_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
87. We've painted ourselves into a corner
There is no way to bring the troops out and not leave a mess behind. To my way of thinking, considering the current climate of the people of Iraq where our troops and our involvement are concerned, there's no way to stay and repair the damage we've inflicted on their society.

It's a damned if we do and damned if we don't situation.

The longer we stay the more unstable the situation will become due to our methods of "stabilizing" the area. If we leave and things progress in the direction they are no doubt going to they will equalize back to a society that will shock and appall most Americans. The difference now is that we've stuck our noses into their lives, we will have to take part of the responsibility for each atrocity that is committed

We didn't belong there in the first place. The dream that most Americans harbor deep in their misguided hearts is a westernized civilization for the people of Iraq. That's not going to become a reality and isn't what our government was working toward when they invaded. Our government was warned of what the consequences of their actions would be and they turned a deaf ear. There's no simple solution to the situation that they've created by choosing to invade. Innocent people have died and will continue to do so and their blood will leave a permanent stain on our nation.
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wurzel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. Even CBS Scheiffer mentioned it today. Trying to make up for yesterday.
Edited on Wed Aug-10-05 07:44 PM by wurzel
When he practically blamed Clinton for 911. He actually gave equal weight to an anonymous source against the 911 commission.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. glad to hear cbs network has at last acknowledged the campout.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
3. Photos from today of Cindy.....




Cindy Sheehan of Vacaville, Calif., gathers herself as she recounts stories of her son by a tent that she is sleeping in on the side of the road that leads to President Bush's ranch, Wednesday, Aug. 10. 2005 in Crawford, Texas. Sheehan, whose son, a U.S. soldier, was killed in Iraq, is holding a roadside peace vigil near the ranch until President Bush talks to her. (AP Photo/Tony Gutierrez)

Please rate them up... http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050810/480/txtg10508102256
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sattahipdeep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
29. Did you see this Update posted by WilliamPitt
http://www.truthout.org/cindy.shtml

Apparently, the threat from the cops about
moving people tomorrow was not so empty.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4308180
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #29
56. thank you for the link
I wish they would put these folks on TV.
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truthisfreedom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
10. support the troops, bush! enlist your kids!
DO IT NOW, YOU CHICKENHAWK!
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genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Yes, have your daughters do something you couldn't.
What a "meow" he is.
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Dudley_DUright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
21. Here is another version of the article by the same AP reporter
that has a BS quote from a Freeper:

But Kristinn Taylor, co-leader of the Washington, D.C., chapter of FreeRepublic.com, which has held pro-troop rallies since Sept. 11 and counter-protests of anti-war demonstrations, said Sheehan's protest is misguided and is hurting troop morale.

"She has a political agenda that goes way beyond her son's death in combat," Taylor said.


http://www.dfw.com/mld/startelegram/news/state/12351545.htm

Like Kristinn (with two n's no less) is an expert in troop morale. Just another of the fighting 101st keyboard brigade showing her ignorance. :eyes:
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #21
35. Why is Free Republic/Kristinn Taylor being quoted in this story
What a bunch of crap. These jerks have staged more protests that no one goes to and they have the balls to put down Cindy. This reporter needs to stick it where the sun don't shine for quoting this a-hole.

Here's freeper Kristinn kissing his 'boyfriend'.



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jazzjunkysue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
25. Richard Clark said, on AAR, we have to leave asap to stop the war
He said most of the insurgents are fighting us so we'll leave and stop stealing their oil. It can't settle down until we leave. There won't be much need of security after we leave. Some civil war will ensue whenever we leave, so, the sooner the better.

I think it makes sense. They're defending their oil from us. That's what it's all about.
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FtWayneBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. yep. n/t
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #25
51. Didn't the same thing happen in Vietnam?
Edited on Thu Aug-11-05 07:43 AM by DoYouEverWonder
When we finally got out of the way, the Vietnamese were eventually able to work things out.

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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #25
58. Cindy's take on the US exit of Iraq
It is only logical and if it is logical bushco** won't even consider it....

http://forum.truthout.org/blog/story/2005/3/11/93730/3285
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cal04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-10-05 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
32. Grieving Mother's War Protest Outside Bush's Ranch Gains
Grieving Mother's War Protest Outside President Bush's Ranch Gains Increasing Attention

The mother of a fallen U.S. soldier who started a quiet roadside peace vigil near President Bush's ranch last weekend is drawing supporters from across the nation. Dozens of people have joined her, and others have sent flowers and food. One activist called her "the Rosa Parks of the anti-war movement."
Cindy Sheehan, 48, of Vacaville, Calif., says she was surprised at the response.

"Before my son was killed, I used to think that one person could not make a difference," she said Wednesday under a tent where she has slept since Saturday. "But one person that is surrounded and supported by millions of people can be heard."

But Kristinn Taylor, co-leader of the Washington, D.C., chapter of FreeRepublic.com, which has held pro-troop rallies, said Sheehan's actions are misguided and hurt troop morale. "She has a political agenda that goes way beyond her son's death in combat," Taylor said.
http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGB9OY6E8CE.html

Taylor shut up and go fight in Iraq because YOU are hurting our troops
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
57. Now on Yahoo...rate it up!
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #57
59. Not this one. Not promoting a FReeper.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #59
60. 2 paragraphs about FreeRepublic, 17 about Cindy
some of the best national press she's gotten so far.
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Im_Your_Huckleberry Donating Member (160 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
62. front page l.a. times today.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
63. CNN: Grieving mother's war protest gaining momentum
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/11/mom.protest.ap/

CRAWFORD, Texas (AP) -- Cindy Sheehan's eyes well with tears when she talks about her oldest son, Casey, an easygoing young man with a quiet wit.

Casey joined the Army in 2000, never imagining he would see combat. Five days after he arrived in Iraq last year, the 24-year-old was killed in Sadr City.

<snip>

"Before my son was killed, I used to think that one person could not make a difference," she said Wednesday under a tent where she has slept since arriving. "But one person that is surrounded and supported by millions of people can be heard."

<snip>

By Thursday, about 50 people had joined her cause, pitching tents in muddy, shallow ditches and hanging anti-war banners; two dozen others have sent flowers. Her name was among the most popular search topics Wednesday on Internet blogs.

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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #63
64. Cindy is my hero
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hamsterjill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #64
81. I love the line about the daughters
I thought Cindy's words asking Bush if he would enourage his daughters to enlist were fantastic. It puts things in perspective.

I (myself) don't EVER want to lose sight of the basic equality that Bush should not ask other parents to sacrifice things which he is not willing to sacrifice himself.

As to pulling out of Iraq...the answer is...we should never have gone there in the first place. Beyond that, there is no right answer.

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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #63
65. woohoo! we're all going to crawford!!
if a few million pissed off voters show up, maybe the MSM will decide it's finally become newsworthy. :eyes:

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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #65
66. Nothing on CNN so far this AM
:argh:
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Mad_Dem_X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
83. "A few residents have complained"
Why would they complain? Is Cindy & Co. blocking traffic or getting in people's way? I don't understand how anyone can complain about a peaceful demonstration, especially this one.
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hamsterjill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-11-05 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #83
85. Residents Complain because Bush has pulled the wool over their eyes
About a lot of things, but mainly that he's a REAL Texan. There are some real "Bubbanecks" that truly believe he is a Texan and the answer to their prayers.

If this shrub is a REAL Texan, I will eat my Stetson and snack on my Tony Lamas!
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