Castro turns 79 on the job, no plans to retire (Hes just a kid)

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/swissinfo.html?siteSect=143&sid=6003034&cKey=1123775432000

HAVANA (Reuters) - Cuban President Fidel Castro turns 79 on Saturday with no plans for retirement at the helm of the Western Hemisphere's only Communist state.

The world's longest serving head of government is busy repairing Cuba's battered socialist economy.

Castro says he is "perfecting" the egalitarian society he began to build after he and his bearded guerrillas ousted U.S. backed dictator Fulgencio Batista and seized power in 1959.

His stamina undiminished, the ageing leader continues to give marathon four- to five-hour speeches denouncing U.S. imperialist aggression to staunch supporters who sing the Marxist Internationale anthem when he is done.

[dhinojosa]

1. I remember the delicious schadenfreude I had when he biffed it.

When we took a step down the stairs and crash landed on that face of his. :)

[Caleb]

4. That was quite funny

[ronnykmarshall]

16. That's a scream!

[Judi Lynn]

42. As funny as it will be for any person who falls when he or she gets old

Some people wept among the
stunned audience in Santa Clara

~~~~~Washington has declined to wish Fidel Castro a speedy recovery, with some officials joking that they preferred to hear of a "different kind of fall".
Mr Castro is in a plaster cast after three hours of surgery for fractures to his left knee and right arm, suffered during his fall at a rally.
(snip)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3943761.stm

[Caleb]

62. You never laugh when Bush falls off his bike?

I do. Plus, Castro may be an old man, but he is also a dictator. I have no sympathy towards people like him or Dumbya.

[Judi Lynn]

70. I laugh because Bush stole his position through chicanery

and he is responsible for devastating this country, and because he has destroyed the lives of untold numbers of so many people in Iraq who have NOTHING TO DO with 9/11, and has lied his way into the war, and lies daily to maintain his filthy grasp on deadly power.

[Caleb]

72. Agreed

:thumbsup:

[MisterP]

79. waiter, there's a gusano in my soup!

[Mika]

83. Actually, two. n/t

[SteppingRazor]

2. Oh for God's sake, just DIE already n/t

:popcorn:

[NNN0LHI]

3. That eating popcorn gif is the best one of the bunch n/t

[David__77]

5. I hope he lives to be 100!

No, make that 105. The Cuban people are united in opposing US interference in their internal affairs. Castro has been a true progressive on the the world stage. The large majority of posters here will disagree with that assessment--but I agree with Nelson Mandela in considering Fidel Castro a friend to justice.

[SteppingRazor]

6. A dictator is a dictator.

Whether left or right. I place truth and democracy above any political leanings.

[David__77]

10. The US is a democracy for and of the rich.

"Democracy" can mean many things. But "multi-party elections" is neither required for nor necessarily indicative of democracy for the broadest number of people.

[SteppingRazor]

22. At least it's a democracy.

There's a reason a lot of Cubans support Castro -- he killed the ones that didn't.

And, sure, all Cubans have remedial medical care and enough nourishment to prevent starvation, but it's not as if they want for nothing -- as the multitudes of teenage prostitutes in Havana would tell you. as long as you give them $10 for their time.

Anyway, I've been to Cuba. I've been to Havana. I know first hand how people live there, and I hate it when far-left people in the States paint it like some sort of paradise. Even putting aside all of the crimes of Castro's regime in the ensuing years, the violence of the revolution itself is enough to condemn the man.

I've heard firsthand accounts from people who watched while Castro's men executed anyone from the upper and middle classes who wouldn't join the army after Castro came to power. I've heard enough of these, from direct sources, not to doubt the veracity. My own ex-girlfriend's grandfather was executed in a similar manner.

Even if Castro created that paradise you imagine in the ensuing years -- and he hasn't -- it wouldn't forgive the sins of the revolution. Americans don't know the meaning of "class warfare."

Now, this doesn't excuse America's involvement in Cuba prior to the revolution, nor it's attempts to infiltrate anti-Castro groups in Cuba afterward, to foment the sort of counterrevolution that would be acceptable to Washington. Nor does it excuse our embargo, which has turned Cuba into something below even a Third World country, despite your protestations of well-fed Cubans. Of course, one could just as easily blame the state of Cuba on our embargo, as on Castro. In fact, I'm even willing to put the large marjority of the blame on our embargo. But it doesn't change the fact that Castro's socialist experiment has been tepid at best.

[wuushew]

25. "the violence of the revolution itself is enough to condemn the man"

What methods would have suggested in the effort to overthrow the Batista government? You don't use kiddy gloves when dealing with fascists. The Revolution was a good thing.

[SteppingRazor]

26. Maybe you don't. But you advocate executing people...

based entirely on their social class?

[Judi Lynn]

33. It'd be good to see a source for your claims

rather than taking the word of someone who passes on remarks from the Miami right-wing exile community.

Some of those people also believed Cuba would send their children to Siberia right after the Revolution, so they sent their kids ahead of them to the States to prevent it.

How intelligent is that?

[SteppingRazor]

41. Not just Miami...

Also people I spoke to in Havana. Personally, I find your disbelief that anyone was ever executed by Castro to be rather breathtaking, when this is pure historical fact.

VOA puts the number of Cubans executed or assassinated in the Revolution somewhere around 20,000:
http://www.geocities.com/policraticus/




But knowing that you'll dismiss any source that espouses an American viewpoint, here's a marxist site that tries to defend the latest executions of three men in Cuba:
http://www.marxist.com/cuba-executions-repression130504.htm

Notice how they don't deny the executions took place. They try to defend them as necessary. No one who knows anything of the facts regarding the Cuban Revolution and even modern Cuba would try to deny the assassinations and executions -- in the case of the initial revolutionary period, wholesale.
Of course, defending those executions is another manner. I personally find them repugnant, as I do all government oppression. Your own opinion is up to you.


On edit: Yeah, thinking Castro would send your kids to Siberia is kinda odd, I gotta agree. :)
But then, My ex-girlfriend's grandmother still wakes up at night screaming that the revolutionaries are coming for her, so who's to say what state of mind these people were in?

[Judi Lynn]

46. I'm not going to chase after this.

I've not heard of too many overthrows of sadistic, murderous dictators like Fulgencio Batista which didn't involve killings, including the American Revolution.

The Voice of America is NOT an objective, 100% truthful source, as anyone knows.

I don't have time to read marxist sources. Thanks.

I'm aware of the executions of the three men who had violently taken the boat holding tourists. I'm aware they held knives to the throats of some of their hostages. I'm aware some of the hostages threw themselves into the ocean to escape. Cuba chose to execute the men. That's not my decision. I oppose ALL executions, including the ones in Florida, especially the ones in Big Sparky, in which flames once rose three feet in the air above the guest of honor's head.

On edit:

Speaking of executions, I'm including, at no cost to you, a link bearing photos of one of the recipients of the full treatment from Florida's penal system:

http://www.ccadp.org/tinydavis.htm

[SteppingRazor]

50. You asked for sources. I provided some. And then you casually dismiss them

Admittedly, those were two extremes, but I hoped that citing two extremes would be amenable. I found this, frm the Washington Post, in which Marifeli Perez-Stable, the author of The Cuban Revolution: IOrigins, Course and Legacy, cites the amount of summary executions in the 1960s as somewhere around 8,000. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28179-2005Apr5.html)
I wouldn't take that as gospel either, but I hope you'll at least acknowledge the fact that political assassinations DID happen. Famously, 70 occured in Santiago at the direct orders of Raul Castro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_revolution)

I honestly don't know what else to say to you. To deny that anyone was ever executed during the Cuban revolution seems absurd on its face to me.

On edit: Thanks for the lovely pictures of the fried convict. First, I'm not for the death penalty. Second, even if I were, there is a massive difference between judicial execution and extrajudicial execution. Attempts to move this into a discussion of the death penalty in the United States are avoiding the issue -- political assassinations in Cuba during the revolution.

[Judi Lynn]

52. I'm not the problem. I have NEVER denied there were executions

during the Cuban revolution. What could be lamer?

The execution of the three hijackers who took hostages violently came after a trial.

I'm not involved in it. I read about it in the papers.

[SteppingRazor]

53. Your initial post in this thread...

Demanded sources for my claim that Cubans were executed during the revolution, especially those from the upper and middle classes.

And now you say OF COURSE there were people executed?

OK, so now that we both acknowledge that Castro has summarily executed Cuban people, why do you defend him and his regime in other posts? If you're against the death penalty, shouldn't you be that much more against someone who executes people without trials? Or do you really just dismiss all the evil he's done by trying to point out the good? Can any good ever outweigh the blood on Castro's hands? And what good has he really done? Go to Havana. You'll see nothing but poverty on a level I have seen nowhere else but in Cuba and Haiti. Both places make Tijuana look like Beverly Hills.
Of course, in Cuba's case, there's the embargo by the U.S., which is certainly to blame for much of the poverty, I'll be the firest to admit.

[Judi Lynn]

55. Beverly Hills was not once a slave colony, living off the work

of African workers, owned and managed by wealthy Spanish landowners.

You've seen poverly unlike it anywhere else but Haiti? What do you attribute as the cause of this poverty? Could it be the 40+ year old EMBARGO?

Have you ever taken a drive through the American South?

Miami itself has been named America's poorest city over 500,000 population several times by the U.S. Census Bureau. Too many corrupt Miami politicians stuffing their pockets, handing out money from their campaign funds to their children for down payments on houses, furniture, too many politicians double dipping in Section 8 housing, overcharging Cuban immigrant housing tenants, etc., etc.

One of the Miami Cuban Senators' grandmothers had a bunch of people fired who didn't please her when she went to pick up her food stamps. It was in the Miami Herald several days.

On and on and on. And on.

[SteppingRazor]

56. I said in my post that the embargo was largely responsible...

And, sure I've been through the South. Particularly in the Delta, some parts are really brutal. But nothing like Haiti or Cuba, not by far. Maybe in appearance, but it lacks the violence, institutionalized n Cuba and gang-led in Haiti.

As for Miami politics -- you think I don't know about that? I live here, fer chrissakes. What's worse, I'm a reporter. So I really even if I didn't want to keep up on it, I have colleagues screaming every latest idiocy in my ear.
But even in its poorest areas -- Liberty City, parts of Hialeah, etc -- it looks nothing like Port au Prince, Havana, or even the Mississippi Delta or Appalachia.

Anyway, we're arguing about nothing anymore. And I'm having more funs being jokey and immature in other threads, instead of serious and pissy in this one. I owe you a fruit basket or something. Now let's hug it out. :grouphug:

[Judi Lynn]

57. I read once that Ricardo "Monkey" Morales ex-wife worked at the Herald

He was one of the two men who planted the bomb on the Cubana airliner before it blew up, killing all 73 people on board.

He mentioned her in a testimony when he was on trial, before he, himself was murdered. Very odd city, you'd have to admit.

[SteppingRazor]

59. I don't just admit it...

I wallow in it. This place is the Freak Kingdom. That's why I love it so.

[Judi Lynn]

76. I must admit, I should have included info. on a couple of popular Miami

politicians, bless their hearts:

The Secret Flush Fund
Investigators have a question for Miriam Alonso: Where'd the money go?
By Jim DeFede

Published: Thursday, September 6, 2001


Steve Satterwhite



Miriam Alonso has frequently been undone by demons of her own making

Miriam Alonso, the Miami-Dade County Commissioner whose politics are as shrill as her voice, is under criminal investigation for allegedly misusing campaign contributions collected during her successful 1998 run for re-election. The investigation is being conducted by the public-corruption unit of the Miami-Dade Police Department. Sources close to the inquiry say investigators are trying to determine what happened to thousands of dollars donated to Alonso's campaign.
(snip/...)

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/issues/2001-09-06/defede.html

This lady is BIG in Miami-Dade Republican life. There's so much more which could be included here. The city backed a truck up to here house and loaded in her furniture she had, which was not purchased with clean funds. It just gets worse.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

remind readers, is also owner of the private school in which Elian Gonzalez
was placed during his time in the United States of America.--WL]

Miami Herald, Wednesday, May 30, 2001

U.S. indicts School Board's Demetrio Pérez

He's accused of overcharging low-income tenants,
lying under oath in civil deposition

BY LUISA YANEZ

A Miami federal grand jury on Tuesday indicted veteran School Board member
Demetrio Pérez Jr. on charges of mail fraud and making false statements in
an alleged scheme to defraud the government by overcharging two low-income
tenants in one of his Little Havana properties.

The 21-count indictment charged that Pérez, a millionaire land owner who
also runs the private Lincoln-Martí Schools, double-dipped by collecting
federal rent subsidies while charging the tenants hundreds of dollars more
every month than they were required to pay.

"To take advantage of these poor people is egregious," said U.S. Attorney
Guy Lewis. "The defendant defrauded recipients of a program designed to
provide a decent living for low-income people."

If convicted, Pérez could face a maximum of up to 105 years in prison and
more than $5 million in fines. Since he has never been convicted of a crime,
he would likely face a lesser punishment.

Gov. Jeb Bush could suspend Pérez from the school board seat he has held
since 1996. Tuesday night, a Bush spokesperson said he would not act until
his office receives and reviews the indictment.
(snip/...)

~~~~ link ~~~~

[Judi Lynn]

78. Kick for more publicity for these two Miami political celebrities.

:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:

[Judi Lynn]

54. Take a look at a scratch on the surface of executions carried out

BEFORE the revolution in Cuba:

New York Times

Jan. 4, 1957. p. 16.

Two Found Slain in Cuba
Special to The New York Times

HAVANA, Jan 3 – The bodies of a youth and a man, riddled with bullets, have been found just outside Santiago de Cuba. A total of about thirty bodies have been found in the last two weeks at roadsides and in the streets of Oriente Province.
(snip)

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/cuban-rebels/NYT-1-4-57.htm

New York Times
March 14, 1957.p. 1.
Cuba Suppresses Youths’ Uprising; Forty Are Killed
Students Storming Batista’s Palace Routed as Tanks and Troops Attack
By R. Hart Phillips

Special to The New York Times

HAVANA, March 13—Forty youths were reported killed this afternoon in an apparently unsuccessful surprise attempt to overthrow the Batista regime. A number of soldiers and police men also were reported killed.

The youths attacked the Presidential Palace with rifles, machine guns and hand grenades.

They rushed the Colon Street entrance, killed the sergeant on guard, and got inside the palace.

In all, five Government troops were killed in the Palace, according to an official estimate.

The palace guard mowed down some rebels in the patio and on the stairway as they tried to reach the upper floors. Others were killed outside the palace.
(snip)

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/cuban-rebels/NYT-3-14-57.htm

New York Times

June 10, 1957. pp. 1, 10.

Populace in Revolt in Santiago de Cuba

By Herbert L. Matthews

Special to The New York Times

SANTIAGO DE CUBA, June 9 – This is a city in open revolt against President Fulgencio Batista. No other description could fit the fact that virtually every man, woman, and child in Santiago de Cuba, except police and army authorities, are struggling at all costs to themselves to overthrow the military dictatorship in Havana.

What applies to Santiago de Cuba can be applied with much the same terms to the whole province of Oriente, at least the eastern end of the island. It is the most heavily populated and fertile region of Cuba, and is traditionally the home of the struggle for Cuban liberty. If Havana had anything like the civic resistance movement of Santiago de Cuba, the Batista regime might have ended a long time ago.

It is one of the most extraordinary atmospheres ever encountered by this correspondent in many countries and during many periods of stress and war. The tension is almost palpable and is certainly very dangerous for the regime. Santiago de Cuba is a city living in a state of fear and exaltation, and it is the exaltation that dominates.

The fear is injected by what leading citizens of the city recently branded as a “reign of terror” imposed by the tough chief of police, Lieut. Col. José Maria Salas Cañizares, whom General Batista sent here two weeks ago to try to crush the rebellious spirit of the citizens.

For many months there have been waves of violence and of counter-terrorism by the authorities, but the last two weeks this correspondent was assured, have been the worst. The police chief, according to reliable witnesses, began his lesson to the inhabitants by having his men drive around the city to beat men and women haphazardly. In this way, Colonel Salas Cañizares let it be known that the people had better stay home in the evenings.

Four Youths Slain
The worst act of terror, which the Santiagueros universally attribute to the police, occurred the night of May 27. The morning after, the bodies of four youths were found hanging from trees, two on one side of the city and two on an other. They had been tortured, stabbed and shot before they were strung up.
(snip)

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/cuban-rebels/NYT-6-10-57.htm

New York Times

Aug. 1, 1957. p. 8.

Cuban Women Defy Jets of Fire Hoses To Attack Regime

Special to The New York Times

HAVANA, July 31 – About 200 women demonstrated against the Government at the City Hall of Santiago de Cuba this morning. The demonstration occurred while United States Ambassador Earl E. T. Smith received the keys to the city.

The demonstration was broken up by the police and soldiers. More than thirty women were arrested.

The women, many of them dressed in black, gathered in Cespedes Park in front of the City Hall shortly after the Ambassador entered the building. They began chanting “Freedom! Freedom!” When the police attempted to disperse them they shouted “assassins!” at the police. Soldiers were called out and a fire truck brought to the scene began drenching the women with water.

Some of the demonstrators fled but the majority knelt in the street and remained firm against the streams of water. They were cheered by several thousand persons who gathered on near-by sidewalks and balconies.

When the Ambassador emerged from the building the drenched women who were still waiting for him tried to reach his automobile but were kept back by the police and the soldiers.

Ambassador Smith deplored the “excessive action of the police” who dispersed the demonstration.

In a press conference this afternoon in Santiago he expressed his regret that his presence in Santiago “may have been the cause of a public demonstration which has brought on police retaliation.”
(snip)

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/cuban-rebels/NYT-8-1-57.htm

New York Times

Dec. 1, 1957. p. 25.

Soldiers in Cuba Kill 4 Saboteurs

Rebels Slain in Trying to Set Fire to Cane fields Near Stronghold of Castro

Special to The New York Times

HAVANA, Nov 30 – For rebels who were trying to set fire to cane fields in Oriente Province were killed by Cuban Government troops today, Camp Columbia army headquarters here announced.

Two were killed on a cane plantation of the Marcane sugar mill near Holguin in the northern half of Oriente Province, the statement said. The two others were killed on a plantation close to the near-by town of Mayari.

This was the first official statement concerning attempts of the enemies of President Fulgencio Batista to burn cane in the easternmost Cuban province. Rebels have threatened to spread their torch offensive to all six Cuban provinces after Dec. 15 just prior to the harvest, when the cane will be dry and easily burned.

Most of the cane burned thus far has belonged to sugar mills that are close to the Sierra Maestra in the southern part of the province, where Fidel Castro and his armed insurgents are operating.

Round-Up Continuing
In Havana, authorities continue to round up youths of high school and university age, doctors, lawyers and other professionals accused of being followers of Señor Castro. Police stations where prisoners are taken for questioning, often for days, are said to be jammed. Some of these are released, and others are sent to Principe Fortress prison to be tried by the Urgency Courts.
(snip)

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/cuban-rebels/NYT-12-1-57.htm

[SteppingRazor]

58. To be fair... this is not BEFORE the revolution...

This is DURING the revolution, which began on July 26, 1953 (hence its occasional name, the 26th of July Movement). So, all of this has to be looked through the prism of a country in the middle of a civil war.

That said, I'm not about to try to defend Batista. I just think Cuba replaced one dictatorial asshole with another one when it went from Batista to Castro.

[Judi Lynn]

60. I haven't heard that Castro has used death squads

nor torture chambers. Batista did.

Before the revolution, the HUGE number of poor people in Cuba had no plumbing, electricity, education, medical care available, lived in shacks, huts, on the tiniest seasonal workers' salaries. People who tried to augment their diets by growing a few plants at the side of the road had their crops destroyed.

They had intestinal parasites commonly. There was a fiendish racial caste system. The poor African Cubans had NO CHANCE AT ALL to make it out of painful conditions. NONE.

The Cuban hierarchy wanted them invisible, and obedient. I've heard that many times. That expression "Solo va niche" or whatever is supposed to be loaded and hateful.

Enough Americans started getting their eyes opened when Elián was held hostage in Miami that we started trying to get up to speed to find out how a political group of nimrods DARED try to keep a child from his father, and what was behind that kind of absense of thought.

[SteppingRazor]

63. Hmm... You got sites for that?

If it's good for the goose... or fool me once... wait. What was it again.

Anyway, it seems hard to believe that Batista had death squads and executed indiscriminately. After all, when Fidel and Raul castro were captured after July 26, 1953, they were just sentenced to 15 years in prison. And these were the LEADERS of the revolution. If Batista was everything you say he was, wouldn't he have had them shot?
And then, less than two years later, Batista freed all political prisoners in Cuba. Is that the sign of a brutal dictator?

Also, Batista was actually voted out of office in 1944. He came to power again only in 1952 -- just aa year before the Revolution began. How is it he organized torture chambers and death squads in so short a time?

After Castro was released in 1955, he fled to Mexico. He came back to Cuba in 1956, and the Revolution began in earnest -- it was after that that Batista gained his reputation for wholesale executions, many of them summary.

That's the history as far as I know. I'm not aware of torture chambers or death squads.

On edit: The Cuban Revolution was, certainly, about overthrowing a dictator -- Batista suspended elections after he took over. But it was mainly about overhtrowing foreign rule -- Batista and his predecessors were just American puppets. The Cuban Revolution, then, was not about overthrowing a Cuban dictator so much as it was about overthrowing an American-backed regime and setting up rule of Cuba by Cubans and for Cubans.

[Judi Lynn]

65. Well, here's a very fast grab from google.Too easy.

Almost everyone has seen the DICATATOR PLAYING CARDS! _{George W. Bush} may have his own one day.

FULGENCIO BATISTA
President of Cuba
Cuban Army Sergeant Fulgencio Batiste, first seized power in a 1932 coup. He was FDR's handpicked dictator to counteract leftists who had overthrown strongman Gerardo Machado, "the Butcher". Batista ruled for several years, then left for Miami, returning in 1952 just in time for another coup, against elected president Carlos Prio Socorras. His new regime was recognized in a flash by President Eisenhower.
Under Batista, U.S. interests flourished and little was said about democracy. With the loyal support of Batista, Mafioso boss Meyer Lansky developed Havana into an international drug port. Cabinet offices were bought and sold and military officials made huge sums on smuggling and vice rackets. Havana became a fashionable hot spot where America's rich and famous clinked cocktails with mobsters.
As the gap between the rich and poor grew wider, the poor grew impatient. In 1953, Fidel Castro led an armed group of rebels in a failed uprising on the Moncada army barracks. Fidel temporarily fled the country and Batista struck back with a vengeance. Freedom of speech was curtailed and "subversive" teachers, lawyers and public officials were fired from their jobs. Death squads tortured and killed thousands of "communists." Batista was assisted in his crackdown by Lansky and other members of organized crime who believed Castro would jeopardize their gambling and drug trade. Despite this, Batista remained a friend to Eisenhower and the U.S. until he was finally overthrown by Castro in 1959.
(snip)

http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/Caribbean.html


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also, have someone explain to you who Rolando Masferrer was. Here's a short biography. He got blown up real good, too, in South Florida, in his car. He assisted with his own death squad.

Rolando Masferrer was born in Cuba. He became a successful newspaper publisher. Masferrer was a strong supporter of Fulgencio Batista and helped organize a private army, Los Tigres, to deal with the dictator's critics.
(snip)

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmasferrerR.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The first CIA orchestrated assassination attempt was planned shortly after the 1959 Cuban revolution. Allan Robert Nye landed his plane near Havana and, armed with a high powered rifle, waited at a hotel near the Presidential Palace for Castro to arrive at his office. However, he was spotted and arrested before Castro arrived. A month later in March, Rolando Masferrer Rojas, a former commander in Batista's death squads, contacted the CIA. Again the agency suggested a plot whereby Castro could be killed near his palace. CIA agents clandestinely contacted the gambling syndicate in Havana and got their approval. A month later, Rolando Masferrer, a former leader of Batista's death squads, met with CIA officials and mobsters in Miami to discuss other methods to carry out an assassination.
(snip/...)

http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/jphuck/Book16Ch.19.html

[SteppingRazor]

69. So, you have two references to Batista death squads...

one is from a deck of "dictator cards" -- not exactly a scholarly source, yeah?

The other is about Rolando Masferrer Rojas. And no need for me to have someone explain the man to me. I already know who he was. Kinda legendary in an infamous sort of way. First, he wasn't a member of a "death squad" -- he formed Los Tigres de Masferrer, a counterrevolutionary paramilitary group. Yes, a very nasty group, but one that existed only during the revolution, not as some sort of Gestapo in the pre-war years.

Also, your site for Masferrer begins "Under Fulgencio Batista a rightist repressive regime controlled Cuba for decades."

If something begins with a line that is that obviously historically wrong, why should the rest of it be trusted? Batista ruled for only a year before the revolution. And was president before that from 1940-1944. A case could be made that he was the de facto leader from 1933-1940, but that still doesn't add up to "decades."

[Judi Lynn]

73. We do know Batista ran things for decades.

I don't have all afternoon to run myself ragged bringing links for you to appraise, as the ones I provided are just fine.

Here's one on Batista which should be included addressing your claim he was in power only a short time:

In an uprising known as the "Revolt of the Sergeants," Batista took over the Cuban government on September 4, 1933. The coup overthrew the liberal government of Gerardo Machado, and marked the beginning of the army's influence as an organized force in the running of the government. It also signaled Batista's emergence as self-appointed chief of the armed forces, king-maker and favored U.S. strong man.

U.S. Ambassador Benjamin Sumner Welles, sent to Cuba in April of 1933 to mediate differences between the government and opposing political groups, found an ally in Batista. "You're the only individual in Cuba today who represents authority," he said to the recently self-appointed Chief of the Military. When Batista asked what the U.S. "wanted done for recognition," Welles replied, "I will lay down no specific terms; the matter of your government is a Cuban matter and it is for you to decide what you will do about it." To Batista, this was an invitation to rule.

On January 14, 1934, Batista forced provisional president Ramón Grau San Martín to resign, and he appointed Carlos Mendieta to the presidency. Within five days, the U.S. recognized Cuba's new government.

For the next decade Batista ran the country from the background, using puppet presidents and having his way with the government, which continued a thirty-year tradition of corruption.
(snip/...)

http://www.thescreamonline.com/essays/essays4-1/batista.html

[SteppingRazor]

74. This suggests that Batista ruled from 1944-52

Which is patently untrue. Dr. Ramon Grau took over from Batista in '44, and, it should be mentioned, supervised the creation of one of the most progressive, human-rights-friendly constitutions in the world up to that time. Pity Batista threw it out the window upon returning to power in 1952 in a coup.

Batista ruled behind the scenes from 1933-1940 and as president from 1940-1944 and again from 1952-1959, with the revolution starting in 1953.
That hardly accounts for "decades" of rule by Batista by the time the revolution started. Just sayin'.


On edit: I'm goin' home now. We're arguing over nothing again. I think we can both agree Batista was oppressive sleaze. I'd say the same about Castro, though I still don't quite know your opinion of the man.

[Judi Lynn]

77. I haven't read anything which tells me he has relegated most of his people

to hopeless lives of poverty, disease, and ignorance. Batista did.

The people who were just fine with US-supported Fulgencio Batista, who did rule behind the scenes as all the ordinary sources indicate for decades were the Spanish Cubans.

Everyone else was screwed.

Adding photo of man who scrambled to the top of a lamppost to get a better view of the festivities just after the revolution:

El Quijote da la Farola
Taken by the photographer
of the famous Che Guevara
photograph, Alberto Korda.

[Judi Lynn]

75. Here are some credentials for the people who compiled the "playing cards"

DENNIS BERNSTEIN is the Executive Producer of "Undercurrents," heard daily on WBAI in New York, and nationally on the Pacifica Radio Network. His articles have appeared in The New York Times, The Village Voice, New York Newsday, Spin Magazine, In These Times, Extra!, and others.

LAURA SYDELL has a law degree and is a phi betta kappa graduate of William Smith College. She has reported for National Public Radio's "All Things Considered," "Crossroads," and for the Pacifica Radio Network.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/Authors.html

I learned their names here:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2844.htm

[IndianaGreen]

84. Dr. Pelayo Cuervo was murdered by one of Batista's death squads

shortly after the attack on the Presidential Palace on March 13, 1957. At about the same time that Cuervo was being beaten to death, Batista's death squads also murdered the president of the FEU, Federation of University Students, Jose Antonio Echevarria. Neither Dr. Cuervo nor Mr. Echevarria were members of M-26-7, Fidel's movement.

You live in Florida. Your anti-Castro Cuban friends can verify what I am telling. The anti-Castro and anti-Batista magazine Bohemia published the horrific pictures of Cuervo's body after the fall of Batista. Bohemia's cover of its first edition published after the Batista regime's fall, said that 20,000 Cubans had been murdered during the Batista regime. Considering that the publisher of Bohemia eventually left Cuba, and that he never recanted his claims about Batista's repression, I think that is something to be considered.

The internet did not exist when Bohemia was published.

[Judi Lynn]

68. I forgot to respond to part of your post.

I learned almost immediately starting to look into Cuba's history that Fulgencio Batista ruled behind the scenes for far longer than he was the elected President.

Here's a short biography. I'm sure you really know all the facts, but there may be some readers who are just starting to learn for themselves who shouldn't be misled:

Fulgencio Batista (1901-1973) 3 of 8


He was called El Hombre, "the Man," and for three decades he was one of Cuba's most controversial leaders. It would take Fidel Castro and the Cuban revolution to unseat him.

Humble Origins
Fulgencio Batista Zaldívar was born in Cuba's Oriente province on January 16, 1901, in Banes, only miles away from the Castro family plantation, Las Manacas. A mulatto of humble origins, he joined the army as a private, and in 1932 he became a military tribunal stenographer with the rank of sergeant.

Strong Man
The villain of pre-Castro Cuba, Batista began his political career as a hero. As a young sergeant in 1933, he led non-commissioned officers in a rebellion against dictator Gerardo Machado in alliance with students and labor leaders. Later, he conspired with the U.S. ambassador, Sumner Welles, to force the resignation of provisional president Ramón Grau San Martín. By then a colonel, Batista became the strongman behind a succession of puppet presidents until he was elected president himself in 1940.
(snip/...)

It also indicates the reason he released political prisoners was because he was trying to save himself politically:

Though he made some political concessions between 1954 and 1956 -- lifting press censorship, releasing political prisoners (including Fidel Castro and his brother Raul), allowing exiles to return -- his unpopularity continued to grow.
(snip/...)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/castro/peopleevents/p_batista.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The source to this link is PBS. Now that Cuban-American former publisher of the Miami Herald, Alberto Ibarguen, is heading PBS (_Bush-influenced appointment, no doubt) (I believe, I could be wrong) I wouldn't be surprised to see this link disappear and reappear written along lines which fit the right-wing sentiment in Miami.

[SteppingRazor]

71. He was president from 1940-1944...

And, I'm certainly willing to grant you, the power behind the throne from 1933-1940. But that's hardly "far longer" than he was elected president. In fact, if you include the Revolution years (1953-59), he was official president longer than he was de facto ruler.

[IndianaGreen]

95. Haydee Santamaria's brother was castrated before being killed

Batista's thugs brought his testicles to Haydee to show her what they have done to her brother.

[Mika]

88. Heresay

Dr Juan Clark is nothing more than a bought and paid for shill for the Miamicuban gusanos. He's a writer for Cubanet, US NED supported buyer of "independent journalists" in Cuba who's goal is to overthrow the system of government in Cuba (using US funds to do so). I've read his book, Cuba: Exodus, Living Conditions and Human Rights. Its not much more than heresay and gusano anti Castro swill.

Most of the killing during the revolution were the doings of the US (gov and organized crime) supported Batistano underground. Falsely reported by the US lackey press as murders by Castro's supporters. Media lies heaped on more lies to support the bloodlust of the US government and US organized crime syndicates.

[ProudDad]

96. Give me a break

The first link you put here is a site who's boni-fides include the Cuban American National Foundation (right-wing cubans in Miami) and other such "reliable" sources. And it's the fuckin' "Voice of America" -- the PROPAGANDA arm of the bush administration. Give me a break!!!


From your second link:

"The execution of three men who had hijacked a ferry and the harsh sentences handed out to 74 opponents of the Cuban regime in April has generated nearly universal condemnation, at least on the part of the media and most governments. US State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said the United States was "outraged," and Secretary of State Colin Powell demanded that Cuba release the "prisoners of conscience".

However, before analyzing the issues involved let us first look at the actual facts. The three individuals that were put to death had hijacked a passenger ferry in an attempt to reach the United States. This was the third attempted hijacking in Cuba in just two weeks."



HIJACKING! What do you think would happen to a couple of American Citizens who hijacked a ferry loaded with passengers in order to get to Cuba?

Well, if anyone was killed by any cause (say heart attack) during this crime; DEATH!! http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=29&did=192


I've also been to Cuba. There are very poor (mainly the fault of the vicious embargo NOT Socialismo!). But even people we talked to who were NOT fans of Fidel, were still against the U.S. Government's actions and the embargo. They were also uniformly Socialists.

[Mika]

90. What crap!

Ho hum. More of the same ol' same ol' exile mung..

Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that
this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that

I've been to Cuba (and not just Havana) many times, including during the entire 1997-98 election season. Your account is pure "exile" swill. A complete insult to Cubans who live in Cuba. I have many friends who live in Cuba and I communicate with them regularly.

Wanna see a city overflowing with prostitutes? Come to Miami. Calle Ocho (SW 8th St) to be specific.

As far as accusing Cuba as being "something below even a Third World country" - nonsense. Go and compare the health and ed stats of Cuba compared to even the wealthiest of the Americas and European countries. Cuba surpasses most all (including the USA).

I've seen no one here claim that Cuba is any paradise. Cuba is a poor country, to be sure, but they marshal their resources very well to the social infrastructures they value the most.



Before the 1959 revolution

75% of rural dwellings were huts made from palm trees.

More than 50% had no toilets of any kind.

85% had no inside running water.

91% had no electricity.

There was only 1 doctor per 2,000 people in rural areas.

More than one-third of the rural population had intestinal parasites.

Only 4% of Cuban peasants ate meat regularly; only 1% ate fish, less than 2% eggs, 3% bread, 11% milk; none ate green vegetables.

The average annual income among peasants was $91 (1956), less than 1/3 of the national income per person.

45% of the rural population was illiterate; 44% had never attended a school.

25% of the labor force was chronically unemployed.

1 million people were illiterate ( in a population of about 5.5 million).

27% of urban children, not to speak of 61% of rural children, were not attending school.

Racial discrimination was widespread.

The public school system had deteriorated badly.

Corruption was endemic; anyone could be bought, from a Supreme Court judge to a cop.

Police brutality and torture were common.

___



After the 1959 revolution

“It is in some sense almost an anti-model,” according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Bank’s Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

-

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

“Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

The question that these statistics pose, of course, is whether the Cuban experience can be replicated. The answer given here is probably not.

“What does it, is the incredible dedication,” according to Wayne Smith, who was head of the US Interests Section in Havana in the late 1970s and early 1980s and has travelled to the island many times since.

No one can say with any credibility that universal education and universal health care is forced on Cubans. Castro didn't give it to them. They worked hard to create the infrastructure and systems that they felt were essential for any progressive system.

Cubans wanted universal health care for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, and organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a fair and complete h-c system. Cubans wanted universal education for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a complete and world class ed system, and they have it. Cubans want to assist the world's poor with doctors and educators, instead of gun ship diplomacy.. and that is what they have done WITH their government, not at odds with their government.

Can Americans make this claim about their own country? I'm afraid not.


Cubans want normalization between the US and Cuba, and they have thrown their doors open to us, but, it is our US government that prevents what the majority of Americans want their government to do - normalize relations. (Poll: Americans don't support Cuban Sanctions) Worse yet, the US government forbids and has criminalized travel to Cuba by Americans - something that Cuba hasn't done.

[ProudDad]

98. Thank you

You have very eloquently summed up what I know about Cuba and what I SAW in Cuba during the worst of the "Special Period". Even in those dark days the Cuban people stood together to build the best life they could for ALL Cubans.

[ProudDad]

97. It's NOT a democracy

It's a one party state (the two right wings of the business party) for and by the rich.

[K-W]

11. Yes, truth is always served by oversimplification. EOM

[AllieB]

17. Hi SteppingRazor

If you do indeed place truth and democracy above political leanings, why did you take issue with the democratically-elected Hugo Chavez in a thread yesterday? Is it because like Castro he has defied the United States? I am no fan of Castro-he is a nasty dictator-but I have to wonder if you place US interests before both truth and democracy.

[SteppingRazor]

23. Allie B --

Not at all. I've got major problems with the U.S.'s foreign policy, especially these days. Of course, that's why I'm here, yeah? :)

Anyway, after reading a very useful link provided in that oft-heated discussion yesterday, (the Datos report on recent Venezuelan poverty), I'm revising a lot of my problems there.

And in any case, my accusations of poverty in Venezuela were based on the fact that money has been taken from social programs and placed into defense spending -- something that can be blamed on the U.S. and the coup it fomented.

On edit: By the way, I want to say thanks for the calm and concilliatory tone of your post. I think a lot of people tend to forget that we're all on the same side here, even if we disagree on some issues here and there. I just went back and looked at your post in the Chavez thread, and was really pleased to see it was similar. Sorry I didn't reply, but my eyes had kind of glazed over that post after the tone of every other poster. In fact, I had turned nasty myself, which is not at all like me. Anyways, thanks again.

[Rich Hunt]

34. that is correct

There's no reason why "left-wingers" and "liberals" can't be oppressive authoritarian duplicitous RATS.

[manic expression]

93. Too bad...

Castro is neither oppressive, nor authoritarian, nor duplicitous. I do believe you have succumbed to US propaganda.

[ProudDad]

99. Hear, hear!

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Oerdin]

101. The world would be a better place

if more people had your values. All to often some of the people here at DU seem to cheer on some foreign leaders who do some very undemocratic things simply because they like that he's a leftist. Left or right a dictator is still a dictator.

[Mika]

102. How about some links?

"All to often some of the people here at DU seem to cheer on some foreign leaders who do some very undemocratic things simply because they like that he's a leftist."


How about some examples? All too often some of the people here at DU seem to accuse other DUers without any examples to back up this claim.

[Cicero]

19. Say what?

:wtf: :spray: :rofl:

You have got to be kidding me.

Later,

[moddemny]

94. "Castro has been a true progressive on the the world stage."

You're kidding right? You forgot to put in the sarcasm gif?

[formerrepuke]

7. Funny thing is, his chosen successor is his brother Raul, who is only

a couple of years younger.

[mike923]

14. It would be nice...

if the Cuban people could vote on who was next.

[nolabels]

61. Same thing I was thinking about the the USA

http://www.votefraud.org/josef_stalin_vote_fraud_page.htm

Could one ponder how unwavering resolve and an ace in hole works together :think:

[David__77]

8. Birthday congratulations to Fidel Castro.

He has upheld the banner of justice while others let it fall into the dirt. He has defied every president since Eisenhower, all of them wanting to bring back the mafia oligarchy. In Cuba, no one goes untreated medically or goes without food and housing. Few countries in this hemisphere can make such a claim.

[DFWdem]

15. Sounds like an island paradise

Makes you wonder why so many people risk their lives in makeshift rafts to get off of the island. Sure, you can get all the food and medical care you want, so long as you don't speak out against Fidel.

[Judi Lynn]

29. Who are the hundreds of people who die between Mexico and the U.S.

running from each year?

This is a post I wrote yesterday which addresses your remarks:

Right in the Miami right-wing Cuban Batista-loving nutsto Herald, an admission that Cubans DO have other ways of getting to the states besides making little rickety boats and clinging to them through 90 miles of high waves and storm-infested seas. Does anyone hear remember reading posts from South Florida posters who claimed Cubans take their lives into their own hands coming to the U.S. and that Feedel Castro won't let anyone leave Cuba?

You'd think they'd feel embarrassed to keep spewing those antique whoppers at us.

Well, look at this, from the Wednesday Miami Herald. This story concerns a young man who came to Florida, spent 3 years in high school there and is on his way to Yale, with a full scholarship.

Grew up in Cuba's school system, came here not speaking English, spent 3 yrs in high school, got a scholarship to Yale. He took English lessons with his dad in Florida.

Here's the part which will make Cuba propaganda spotters snicker:


MOVING ON: Future Yale student Luisel Peña with a Sudan poster. NURI VALLBONA/HERALD STAFF

UP FRONT | EDUCATION

Recent arrival from Cuba already headed to Yale

A 23-year-old Hialeah man has moved from a local community college to Yale in just three years after leaving Cuba.

BY NOAH BIERMAN

[e-mail]


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


....His parents divorced when he was 2. In 1992, Peña's father came to visit his brother in Hialeah and stayed, leaving behind a career as a civil engineer to work in construction.

Back in Cuba, Peña kept reading. He especially likes Italian author Umberto Eco, whom he calls one of the best living authors in the world. He studied English, learning how to read and write but he did not feel confident speaking.

Luisel's father became a U.S. citizen and visited Cuba five years ago to tell his son he wanted him to move to Miami. Luisel was indifferent. He would miss friends. But his parents believed he needed to leave the island to fulfill his promise.

Something else happened on that visit. His parents fell in love again and decided they would remarry nearly two decades after their divorce. Luisel left Cuba on Aug. 22, 2002, his mother 18 months later.
(snip)
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/12344153.htm


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


This fragment of the story is so full of contradictions of propaganda we've heard for years. It's HILARIOUS.

His dad came here for a VISIT to see his brother. (We are told this never happens.) He stayed in the States. Just like that.

The kid reads Umberto Eco. (We've been told Cubans aren't allowed to read anything from outside their culture, that they are kept in the dark, reading only propaganda.)

His dad CAME BACK TO CUBA FOR A VISIT. Now how can that be? Wouldn't Feedel Castro try to have him thrown in jail?

He was offered the chance to come to join his dad. He didn't want to. Wanted to stay with his friends. (Like any kid anywhere.)

The kid finally just mysteriously comes to America. Later his mom just comes to America. You note the article doesn't mention their little "rickety boats."

~~~~ link ~~~~

[DFWdem]

30. If I had to venture a guess

I'd say they aren't running. Rather, they realize that even if the only job they can get is flipping burgers for $8.50 an hour it'll still be much more than they can earn in their home country. Just because a few people come here via methods other than rickety boats does not mean all do. It's a fact that many Cubans do risk their lives attempting to cross the ocean and land in Florida. When I hear people like David_77 extolling the virtues, justice, medical care, etc provided by Castro's government it makes me wonder why they have not decided to emigrate to Cuba so they can live in a more just society than the one they find themselves in here in the USA. One would not have to worry about the gov't travel ban to Cuba if they didn't plan on coming back.

[ugarte]

31. You're saying Mexicans don't risk their lives like Cubans?

I guess those bodies in the desert and drowned in the Rio Grande don't count. They sound pretty desperate to me. I hope you don't mean this as callously as it sounds.

[DFWdem]

36. Where did I say that?

I simply said they weren't running from their gov't, but instead were looking for better opportunities.

[ugarte]

39. Youseem to be saying that Cubans are somehow more desperate than Mexicans

to reach the U.S., that hunger is not as strong a motivation as freedom. I would argue that it is even stronger and more basic. Mexicans are most definitely running from lives of oppression, maybe a different kind of oppression, but they are every bit as desperate.

Let me put it to you simply: how desperate would you have to be to leave your family and go what they go through?

[DFWdem]

43. According to this poster neither is an issue in Cuba

..."In Cuba, no one goes untreated medically or goes without food and housing."... (Post #8 on this thread)

According to him, Cubans want for neither food nor freedom.

[Judi Lynn]

51. From the book by Ann Louise Bardach, former N.Y. Times reporter

Cuba Confidential
Love and Vengeance
In Miami and Havana

non-fiction, published in 2002,page #13 of the preface:

Since 1978, more than one million airline tickets have been sold for flights from Miami to Havana. Faced with the brisk and continuous traffic between Miami and Havana, hard-liners on both sides have opted to deny the new reality. Anomalies such as the phenomenon of reverse balseros, Cubans who, unable to adapt to the pressures and bustle of entrepreneurial Miami, return to the island, or gusañeros, expatriates who send a portion of their earnings home in exchange for unfettered travel back and forth to Cuba (the term is a curious Cuban hybrid of gusano and compañero, or comrade), are unacknowledged by both sides, as are those who live in semi-exilio, returning home to Cuba for long holidays.

Book and author

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It's time Americans outside Florida started seeing there is quite a bit more to this Cuban story than we are being told.

[Judi Lynn]

32. If we offered the benefits open to Cubans through the Cuban Adjustment Act

to people from Latin America and the Caribbean, we'd be hit by a wave of immigrants we could NEVER handle. NEVER.

Cubans are offered instant legal status as soon as they make dry land, with NO BORDER PATROLS chasing them down, no Minutemen trying to take shots at them, nada. To the contrary, they are offered free work visas, green cards, Section 8 public housing at U.S. taxpayers' expense, food stamps, social security, medical treatment, financial aid for school, etc., etc.

What awaits all Cubas upon arrival here would attract so many, many poor people from South and Central Americas, and the Caribbean, there's be no place to put them all.

[ugarte]

35. You know your stuff

Exactly right.

[Judi Lynn]

37. I'm coming from behind, ugarte, but I hope to learn what I should've known

Thank you so much.

[DFWdem]

38. You're right

Why we keep that law on the books is beyond me. That's why you never hear of Cubans being sent back from a beach in Florida, only if they're intercepted in the open sea.

"they are offered free work visas, green cards, Section 8 public housing at U.S. taxpayers' expense, food stamps, social security, medical treatment, financial aid for school, etc., etc."

Some of those very same benefits are given to illegal immigrants. Medical treatment, financial aid for school...Did you know that in Texas people from Mexico pay in-state tuition because of a "neighboring states" program, meaning any state that borders Texas? When did Mexico become a state (US i mean)? Illegal immigrants do receive many benefits from the gov't, both explicitly and implicitly.

[Judi Lynn]

40. In-state tuition to young people years after their parents arrived

doesn't seem too horrendous. They still have to pay a ton. It's not free, and especially hard for poor people.

Back to the legal status. Their parents live on the run when they are illegal. This doesn't happen with Cubans.

What could be simpler?

[DFWdem]

45. No argument from me Judi

However, the tuition break I spoke of does not require that the student or his parents be in Texas for any amount of time prior to receiving the benefit. In fact, the parents can stay in Mexico, the child can come to Texas alone for the sole purpose of going to college and receive the in-state tuition break immdeiately. I am of the opinion that residents who have actually paid taxes should get this break before those who never have (US citizens must live in Texas for 1 year in order to receive the in-state tuition break).

[Judi Lynn]

47. I'd surely love to read more about this.

It's the very first time I've ever heard about it. Very first. I really want to know more.

Yeah, if it's true, I'd be steamed as well. Please pitch a link into the thread, if you would.

[DFWdem]

48. To clarify

The university system requires that there be reciprocity, i.e. Mexico must also offer in-state tuition for all the people in Texas that want to study at Mexican universities.

On edit: I'm wading through the pages at one of the university sites trying to find the link. I'll post it when i do.

[AlphaCentauri]

86. Looks like the spread of freedom won't touch poor Mexicans n/t

[NNN0LHI]

9. Sorry comrade Fidel but I don't think I could take listening to no...

...fucking marathon four- to five-hour speeches about anything from anyone. Don't think I would be breaking out into no fucking spontaneous singing afterwords either. No what I mean Fidel old buddy. Why don't you cut it back a little bit and give them folks a break.

Don

[David__77]

12. But some want to listen.

I wouldn't mind listening. I would prefer a ten hour speech from Castro to a five-minute press conference from Busholini.

[NNN0LHI]

13. I won't try and stop anyone from doing whatever they enjoy doing

Live and let live I always say.

Peace.

Don

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

18. Anyone remembers a cartoon with all US presidents since Ike, each saying

a word of a sentence?

(Ike) Don't... (JFK) worry... (LBJ) Fidel... (Nixon) Castro... (Ford) will... (Carter) fall... (Reagan) any... (Bush I) minute... (Clinton) now!

(Made before 2000, as should be painfully obvoius. That sentence needs one more word now.)

[NNN0LHI]

21. Indeed. He has watched them come and he has watched them go n/t

[Judi Lynn]

20. He fainted prior to the fall, in Santa Clara.

I remember reading then that some people in the audience burst into tears, and seemed genuinely concerned.

Context is everything. Without it, you are fumbling in the dark.

Here's a quick google grab about his fall, reflecting on the tone in the crowd listening:

The faces of people at the activity reflected consternation and shock. A few people could be seen crying.
(snip)

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/21/world/main650527.shtml

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Government cameras suddenly pulled away and focused on the crowd, filled with
surprised and concerned faces. Some people gasped and some cried.
(snip)

http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/fidel/castro-faints.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He could go any day, obviously. Cubans, from everything I've heard, do NOT want the very same scumbags they revolted against returning and getting right back in the driver's seat, no matter how determined they are to rule Cuba once more.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

24. Even the most rabid Castro hater should agree with your last paragraph...

...even if they disagree with everything else.

If they don't... well, that's what that link at the bottom left of every post is for.

[SteppingRazor]

27. Precisely. I agree with that last part of the post. As for the rest...

If George Bush fainted at one of his "town hall meetings" and fell over, can you imagine the weeping and wailing that would ensue?

[Judi Lynn]

28. No. n/t

[LeftyElvis]

44. we need

castro in the region. He provides a good buffer against facist regimes like bushco.


Viva Chavez!

[nolabels]

64. They have been trying to make an example of Castro for a while

Some how I think they fumbled that job

Financial Times: U.S. Losing Control in Latin America
(snip)
But the editors of the Financial Times are of course concerned first and foremost about the growing regional influence of Venezuela. They write that:

Above all, the US needs to respond seriously to the rise of Mr Chávez. At home, the president has built support on a series of popular social programmes, funded with the proceeds of high oil prices. Abroad, Mr Chávez has been throwing money around. In the past few weeks he has bought up chunks of Argentine debt and despatched cheap oil to a dozen needy Caribbean countries. Ecuador could also be set to benefit from Venezuelan largesse, if a bond sale goes through as expected. And during a visit this week Mr Chávez will offer shipbuilding contracts to Argentina and funds for Uruguay's state-owned airline.

Interestingly, however they go beyond the usual rhetoric of panicing about Hugo Chávez spreading revolution throughout Latin America, and in fact chide the Bush administration for exagerrating Chávez's role in the recent uprisings in Bolivia:

So far Washington has tended to focus on links between Mr Chávez and radical groups in the region, such as those led by Evo Morales, the leftwing indigenous leader who could become Bolivia's next president later this year. This exaggerates Mr Chávez's capacity for political meddling and underestimates the extent to which high oil prices give him the possibility to build softer forms of power and influence in the region.

The Financial Times is more or less conceding that Chávez is threatening corporate interests not by exporting revolution in the traditional sense, but by undermining U.S. hegemenony by leveraging economic power to strengthen Latin American solidarity. The editors' conclude, of course, that this is a horrible development and that the U.S. needs to find new strategies to thwart Venezuela and reassert its hegemony -- but there is something oddly gratifying about having one of the established organs of the global financial community more or less concede most of the points that we Authentic Journalists have been putting forward in recent months.
(snip)
http://narcosphere.narconews.com/story/2005/8/9/122436/6754

[Judi Lynn]

66. Very interesting article.

It's about time Latin America insisted on managing its own business, isn't it?

Our right-wing is going to have to learn to butt out, one day.

[Kingshakabobo]

49. 79 is the new 59. n/t

[Endangered Specie]

80. Well, they say the good die young...

[malaise]

81. Happy Birthday Fidel

Your neighbours in the Caribbean love you. With limited resources you are our best neighbour - thanks for your doctors, schools and for always being first when disaster strikes. We have no guns here made by Cuban people and exported for profit. Good health and long life to you.

[Mika]

82. Utter propaganda

I've heard Mr Castro speak many times - in Cuba.

Mr Castro just wouldn't say that HE is perfecting anything. He always says WE (Cubans) will do such and such. That is the way he speaks. He is an awesome motivational speaker. He never points to Cuban achievements and takes claim for them. He always gives credit to where it is due - the Cuban people, doctors, teachers, scientists, researchers, farmers, etc. We should wish that we had political leadership with a fraction of the depth of knowledge that Mr Castro has. He has many millions of supporters in Cuba, but it isn't Castro's Cuba. Cuba belongs to the Cuban people and they run it (via their parliamentary system), not Castro.


Plus, the article mentions the power shortages, but does not mention that a F-ing hurricane just about destroyed the electicity infrastructure when it blew right through Havana. Cuba has limited resources to rebuild such devastation quickly. Even Florida has trouble recovering quickly from such devastation as we have seen from last year - some central Floridians are still in bad shape.


Happy birthday Mr Castro.


Viva Cuba!

[Catholic Sensation]

85. may he never see another one...

[Mika]

87. How Christian of you, Catholic Sensation.

:yoiks:

[IndianaGreen]

91. When the Pope went to Cuba, he complained about Santeria

Under the Cuban Revolution, all religious views are respected. Under Batista and his predecessors, anti-Semitism was accepted and encouraged.

[Mika]

92. Anti Semitism is outlawed, post revolution..

As is all religious discrimination.



That is not a church in Cuba. Repeat.. NOT a church. :)

[govegan]

89. May you enjoy many, many more Mr. Castro!!!!!

"Life is enriched by aspiration and effort, rather than by acquisition and accumulation."
-- american radical, scott nearing

Someday democracy will come to the usa.

Meanwhile the blood of the land will speak volumes against those who point to the violence in other lands as though it happened not here,

And Avarice, Greed and Envy continue to spread their vile sway . . . inciting violence and the clumsy, callous rule of Fear.

"It is the Olympics of history that matter, and there we will take the gold medal," he (FC) said in a speech to physical education graduates.

And the neo-fascists of america will not even make it past the freaking preliminary time trials.

[ProudDad]

100. Viva Fidel, Viva Chavez, Viva TeleSur

It's about time the south tells the great Satan to fuck off!