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sabra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:47 PM
Original message
Bill Frist backs 'intelligent design'

http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/news/politics/12426816.htm

Bill Frist backs 'intelligent design'

Associated Press

NASHVILLE, Tenn. - Echoing similar comments from President Bush, Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist said "intelligent design" should be taught in public schools alongside evolution.

Frist, R-Tenn., spoke to a Rotary Club meeting Friday and told reporters afterward that students need to be exposed to different ideas, including intelligent design.

"I think today a pluralistic society should have access to a broad range of fact, of science, including faith," Frist said.

Frist, a doctor who graduated from Harvard Medical School, said exposing children to both evolution and intelligent design "doesn't force any particular theory on anyone. I think in a pluralistic society that is the fairest way to go about education and training people for the future."


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shoelace414 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. did he answer about the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. if they teach ID, they need to teach Alien inception as well... I mean,
since we're bein' pluralistic and everything.

Shouldn't we cover ALL the different theories? :evilgrin:

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Along the Red Ledge Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
51. What about goat entrails?!!
Edited on Fri Aug-19-05 07:49 PM by Along the Red Ledge
Why aren't my kids learning about how to divine the future by reading goat entrails? I mean, that is a theory, too! What about the Aristotelian medical theory of the 4 Humors? How are our doctors and nurses of tomorrow going to serve America's future medical needs without being exposed to this alternate theory, too?

Sheesh!
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #51
92. Mmm Goaty
Oooh haruspication my favorite! The best thing about the seeing the soothsayer is the goat BBQ afterwards! Its good deal for the soothsayer, not so good for the goat.

Work that placebo effect, alternative medecine quacks!! work it! The mind is a powerful thing when it gets what it wants and is convinced of a treatments efficacy.

PS Welcome to DU Red Ledge!
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Along the Red Ledge Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #92
94. Thanks for the welcome!
Its great to be here. You guys have it going on and I am glad to be a part of it. :-)
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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. I seriously need that WWFSMD? shirt. n/t
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shoelace414 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. are you a pastafarian?
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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. I have indeed been touched by his noodly appendage. n/t
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. RAmen, one and all.
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #22
49. Yes... me too!
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #17
48. Have been since Hubble saw the face of god
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IA_Seth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. Whats with the picture...she looks familiar?? n/t
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shoelace414 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Christine (Moose) McGlade from You Can't Do That On Television
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IA_Seth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. Ah hah...the show with the slime....kind of remember it.
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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
33. It's the Vulcans man.... the Vulcans....
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
36. whatever happened to the lawsuit against Kansas schools
to force them to include FSMism? No word on the website...

:shrug:
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Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
100. Was he wearing a pirate costume when he made the statement?
:)
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Lochloosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. I think I missed that video....
asshole
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etherealtruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
3. Of course he does...
... the man is an idiot.

Oh, what a waste of an education that man is.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
4. oh, suddenly it's all about 'pluralism'... what a load of BS
:grr:

ID has absolutely nothing to do with science or a healthy pluralistic society.

Have every last one of the ass clowns gone completely insane? :crazy:
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #4
27. when comparing apples and oranges--lets be pluralistic
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Along the Red Ledge Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
53. Excelllent Resource: The General Anti-Creationism FAQ
A handy dandy resource to refer to when debating thsi subject with the True Believers...

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-meritt.html

Also see...

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/science/creationism/

Yours,

ATRL

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Ravenseye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
5. It. Isn't. Science
Anyone who would defend this in front of me...I dont' know if I could keep myself from introducting them to my intelligent fist theory, where the devil controls my hand and arm and makes it do things like punch people.

Hey it's a theory right? You may say it's just me, or that i'm crazy but if I want to say that the devil made me do it, then it's just as valid scientifically right?

morons.
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booksenkatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
25. Ravenseye, your post is a wonder of the world
Edited on Fri Aug-19-05 03:04 PM by patsified
Love it!!!111one111!!!

:bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce::bounce:
:rofl:

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Along the Red Ledge Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
54. LOL!
That was priceless! I may have to adpat your intelligent fist theory when I debate with True Believers. It may work where logic and reason fail. :-)
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ironman202 Donating Member (608 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. if you were wondering what depths the fundies can drive their puppets
they just got a medical doctor to endorse theology as a science. What a craven jackass Frist is.
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BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
7. Then teach evolution in Sunday School
If all sides should be taught. In public schools with taxpayers money pushing a religious perspective? No. Unless churchs allow evolution to be taught in their churchs. If they don't they lose their tax exempt status. Now that's America, bill frist, and fuck you very much.

I DIDN'T SPEND 24 YEAR SUPPORTING AND DEFENDING THE BIBLE.
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GOPFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
9. Hey, I've got a theory that should be taught in a pluralistic society:
Conservatives are idiots. There, teach that in the schools Bill Frist!
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
10. So
From this admission of Dr. Catkiller, it wasn't his medical skill that saved lives, it was God's hand guiding him in the proper procedures.

Shouldn't all that money Frist got paid be given to his church, after all it really wasn't him guiding that scalpel?
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moc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
12. Oh good grief
He should have his medical degree revoked for that.

:crazy:
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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
13. What kind of MD endorses Intelligent Design? What a moran. n/t
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NAO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
14. Frist needs "Mistakes of Moses"; book should be in EVERY school library
I would refer Dr. Frist to the works of Robert G. Ingersoll. Regarding Creationism and the account in Genesis, no one has sliced, diced, and lampooned it better than Ingersoll, in his lecture "Some Mistakes of Moses".

Some Mistakes Of Moses
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/some_mistakes_of_moses.html

I wish I could get several copies of this book into EVERY PUBLIC SCHOOL LIBRARY - especially those where the Biblical account of Creationism is taken seriously. The Religous Reich backlash against an attempt to put "Some Mistakes of Moses" in school libraries would create much needed PR for this fantastic book which is relatively unknown today.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #14
30. I think current atheists do a better job than Ingersoll - the new science
since he wrote the article screws up his arguments. It is one long read, but can be summed up in his line "If there are things for which we cannot account, let us wait for light" which is an expression of faith in science/human reason to solve/explain all - eventually - and a suggestion that THIS FAITH should replace a faith in God. But in any case, it is a fun read!
==========================================================

A sample of the Ingersoll logic that one can compare with modern physics:
===================================================================
"The Egyptian priests taught first, that a god created the
"original matter" leaving it in a state of chaos; second, that a
god molded it into from; third, that the breath of a god moved upon
the face of the deep; fourth, that a god created simply by saying
"Let it be;" fifth, that a god created light before the sun
existed.

Nothing can be clearer than that Moses received from the
Egyptians the principal parts of his narrative, making such changes
and additions as were necessary to satisfy the peculiar
superstitions of his own people.

Let us account for all we see by the facts we know. If there
are things for which we cannot account, let us wait for light. To
account for anything by supernatural agencies is, in fact to say
that we do not know. Theology is not what we know about God, but
what we do not know about Nature. In order to increase our respect
for the Bible, it became necessary for the priests to exalt and
extol that book, and at the same time to decry and belittle the
reasoning powers of man. The whole power of the pulpit has been
used for hundreds of years to destroy the confidence of man in
himself -- to induce him to distrust his own powers of thought, to
believe that he was wholly unable to decide any question for
himself and that all human virtue consists in faith and obedience.
The church has said, "Believe, and obey! If you reason, you will
become an unbeliever, and unbelievers will be lost. If you disobey,
you will do so through vain pride and curiosity, and will, like
Adam and Eve, be thrust from Paradise forever.

<snip>
Moses conveys, and intended to convey the idea
that the matter of which the heaven and the earth are composed, was
created....... It is impossible for me to conceive of something being created from nothing. Nothing, regarded in the light of a raw material, is a decided failure. I cannot conceive of matter apart from force. Neither is it possible to think of force disconnected with matter. You cannot imagine matter going back to absolute nothing. Neither can you imagine nothing being changed into something. You may be eternally damned if you do not say that you can conceive these things, but you cannot conceive them. Such is the constitution of the human mind that it cannot even think of a commencement or an end of matter, or farce.

If God created the universe, there was a time when he
commenced to create. Back of that commencement there must have been
an eternity. In that eternity what was this God doing? He certainly
did not think. There was nothing to think about. He did not
remember. Nothing had ever happened. What did he do? Can you
imagine anything more absurd than an infinite intelligence in
infinite nothing wasting an eternity?"


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NAO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #30
55. For the scientifically inclined, yes -- for the ordinary person, no.
For people who are science literate, modern atheists do a better job than Ingersoll. But for the average Christian, who takes the Bible to be The Word of God, and is not particularly scientifically literate, Ingersoll does a far better job.

His arguments are very plan and easy to understand, yet they demolish the notion that the Bible is the infallible Word of God, and provide a very simple and clear common sense refutation of most of the Christian doctrines.

Because Ingersoll's works were meant to be spoken lectures, they read very easily and very enjoyably - they are eloquent and flowing rather than elaborate, pedantic. They do not assume very much knowledge of science, philosophy, i.e., they are tuned to the target audience - today's average person.

People who can wade thru technical articles by scientists or by philosophers of science are usually ALREADY not believers in orthodox religion. They don't need to be convinced. It's the great majority who are not formally trained in science or philosophy that need Ingersoll, and I have not found a more effective refutation of Christianity for this audience than Ingersoll.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #55
89. I agree his thought flows well and is as easily absorbed as a Rush talk
show putdown.

But I do believe Christian scientists are not that rare - and for us, he would be laughed off the stage.
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NAO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #89
99. Some of his arguments rely on 19th c. science; many are timeless
I think Ingersoll would be pleased that many of his points are now outdated. That demonstrates progress. One of the main reasons he detested revealed-religion based creeds is that they were more interested in defending the written creed than they were with facts. Revealed creeds cannot advance. If they do it is heresy.

Heretics And Hericies

WHOEVER has an opinion of his own, and honestly expresses it, will be guilty of heresy. Heresy is what the minority believe; it is the name given by the powerful to the doctrine of the weak. This word was born of the hatred, arrogance and cruelty of those who love their enemies, and who, when smitten on one cheek, turn the other. This word was born of intellectual slavery in the feudal ages of thought. It was an epithet used in the place of argument. From the commencement of the Christian era, every art has been exhausted and every conceivable punishment inflicted to force all people to hold the same religious opinions. This effort was born of the idea that a certain belief was necessary to the salvation of the soul. Christ taught, and the church still teaches. that unbelief is the blackest of crimes. God is supposed to hate with an infinite and implacable hatred, every heretic upon the earth, and the heretics who have died are supposed at this moment to be suffering the agonies of the damned. The church persecutes the living and her God burns, for all eternity, the dead.

It is claimed that God wrote a book called the Bible, and it is generally admitted that this book is somewhat difficult to understand. As long as the church had all the copies of this book, and the people were not allowed to read it, there was comparatively little heresy in the world; but when it was printed and read, people began honestly to differ as to its meaning. A few were independent and brave enough to give the world their real thoughts, and for the extermination of these men the church used all her power. Protestants and Catholics vied with each other in the work of enslaving the human mind. For ages they were rivals in the infamous effort to rid the earth of honest people. They infested every country, every city, town, hamlet and family. They appealed to the worst passions of the human heart. They sowed the seeds of discord and hatred in every land. Brother denounced brother, wives informed against their husbands, mothers accused their children, dungeons were crowded with the innocent; the flesh of the good and true rotted in the clasp of chains; the flames devoured the heroic, and in the name of the most merciful God, his children were exterminated with famine, sword, and fire. Over the wild waves of battle rose and fell the banner of Jesus Christ. for sixteen hundred years the robes of the church were red with innocent blood. The ingenuity of Christians was exhausted in devising punishment severe enough to be inflicted upon other Christians who honestly and sincerely differed with them upon any point whatever.

Give any orthodox church the power, and to-day they would punish heresy with whip, and chain, and fire. As long as a church deems a certain belief essential to salvation, just so long it will kill and burn if it has the power. Why should the church pity a man whom her God hates? Why should she show mercy to a kind and noble heretic whom her God will burn in eternal fire? Why should a Christian be better than his God? It is impossible for the imagination to conceive of a greater atrocity than has been perpetrated by the church. Every nerve in the human body capable of pain has been sought out and touched.

Let it be remembered that all churches have persecuted heretics to the fullest extent of their power. Toleration has increased only when and where the power of the church has diminished. From Augustine until now the spirit of the Christians has remained the same. There has been the same intolerance, the same undying hatred of all who think for themselves, and the same determination to crush out of the human brain all knowledge inconsistent with an ignorant creed.

Every church pretends that it has a revelation from God, and that this revelation must be given to the people through the church; that the church acts through its priests, and that ordinary mortals must be content with a revelation -- not from God -- but from the church. Had the people submitted to this preposterous claim, of course there could have been but one church, and that church never could have advanced. It might have retrograded, because it is not necessary to think or investigate in order to forget. Without heresy there could have been no progress.

The highest type of the orthodox Christian does not forget; neither does he learn. He neither advances nor recedes. He is a living fossil embedded in that rock called faith. He makes no effort to better his condition, because all his strength is exhausted in keeping other people from improving theirs. The supreme desire of his heart is to force all others to adopt his creed, and in order to accomplish this object he denounces free thinking as a crime, and this crime he calls heresy. When he had power, heresy was the most terrible and formidable of words. It meant confiscation, exile, imprisonment, torture, and death.

In those days the cross and rack were inseparable companions. Across the open Bible lay the sword and fagot. Not content with burning such heretics as were alive, they even tried the dead, in order that the church might rob their wives and children. The property of all heretics was confiscated, and on this account they charged the dead with being heretical -- indicted, as it were, their dust -- to the end that the church might clutch the bread of orphans. Learned divines discussed the propriety of tearing out the tongues of heretics before they were burned, and the general opinion was, that this ought to be done so that the heretics should not be able, by uttering blasphemies, to shock the Christians who were burning them. With a mixture of ferocity and Christianity, the priests insisted that heretics ought to be burned at a slow fire, giving as a reason that more time was given them for repentance.

No wonder that Jesus Christ said, "I came not to bring peace, but a sword."...

According to the theologians, God, the Father of us all, wrote a letter to his children. The children have always differed somewhat as to the meaning of this letter. In consequence of these honest differences, these brothers began to cut out each other's hearts. In every land, where this letter from God has been read, the children to whom and for whom it was written have been filled with hatred and malice. They have imprisoned and murdered each other, and the wives and children of each other. In the name of God every possible crime has been committed, every conceivable outrage has been perpetrated. Brave men, tender and loving women, beautiful girls, and prattling babes have been exterminated in the name of Jesus Christ. For more than fifty generations the church has carried the black flag. Her vengeance has been measured only by her power. During all these years of infamy no heretic has ever been forgiven. With the heart of a fiend she has hated; with the clutch of avarice she has grasped; with the jaws of a dragon she has devoured; pitiless as famine, merciless as fire, with the conscience of a serpent: such is the history of the Church of God.


Ingersoll's "reality check" on the story of the Plagues of Egypt asks a few simple questions, that when honestly considered, cast extreme doubt on the story:

THE PLAGUES.

Three millions of people were in slavery. They were treated
with the utmost rigor, and so fearful were their masters that they
might, in time, increase in numbers sufficient to avenge
themselves. that they took from the arms of mothers all the male
children and destroyed them. If the account given is true, the
Egyptians were the most cruel, heartless and infamous people of
which history gives any record. God finally made up his mind to
free the Hebrews; and for the accomplishment of this purpose he
sent, as his agents, Moses and Aaron, to the king of Egypt. In
order that the king might know that these men had a divine mission,
God gave Moses the power of changing a stick into a serpent, and
water into blood. Moses and Aaron went before the king, stating
that the Lord God of Israel ordered the king of Egypt to let the
Hebrews go that they might hold a feast with God in the Wilderness.
Thereupon Pharaoh, the king, enquired who the Lord was, at the same
time stating that he had never made his acquaintance, and knew
nothing about him. To this they replied that the God of the Hebrews
had met with them, and they asked to go a three days journey into
the desert and sacrifice unto this God, fearing that if they did
not he would fall upon them with pestilence or the sword. This
interview seems to have hardened Pharaoh, for he ordered the tasks
of the children of Israel to be increased; so that the only effect
of the first appeal was to render still worse the condition of the
Hebrews. Thereupon, Moses returned unto the Lord and said, "Lord,
wherefore hast thou so evil entreated this people? Why is it that
thou hast sent me? For since I came to Pharaoh to speak in thy name
he hath done evil to this people: neither hast thou delivered thy
people at all."

Apparently stung by this reproach, God answered: --

"Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh; for with a
strong hand shall he let them go; and with a strong hand shall he
drive them out of his land."

God then recounts the fact that he had appeared unto Abraham,
Isaac and Jacob, that he had established a covenant with them to
give them the land of Canaan, that he had heard the groanings of
the children of Israel in Egyptian bondage; that their groanings
had put him in mind of his covenant, and that he had made up his
mind to redeem the children of Israel with a stretched-out arm and
with great judgments. Moses then spoke to the children of Israel
again, but they would listen to him no more. His first effort in
their behalf had simply doubled their trouble and they seemed to
have lost confidence in his power. Thereupon Jehovah promised Moses
that he would make him a god unto Pharaoh, and that Aaron should be
his prophet, but at the same time informed him that his message
would be of no avail; that he would harden the heart of Pharaoh so
that he would not listen; that he would so harden his heart that he
might have an excuse for destroying the Egyptians. Accordingly,
Moses and Aaron again went before Pharaoh. Moses said to Aaron; --
"Cast down your rod before Pharaoh." which he did, and it became a
serpent. Then Pharaoh not in the least surprised, called for his
wise men and his sorcerers, and they threw down their rods and
changed them into serpents. The serpent that had been changed from
Aaron's rod was, at this time crawling upon the floor, and it
proceeded to swallow the serpents that had been produced by the
magicians of Egypt. What became of these serpents that were
swallowed, whether they turned back into sticks again, is not
stated. Can we believe that the stick was changed into a real
living serpent, or did it assume simply the appearance of a
serpent? If it bore only the appearance of a serpent it was a
deception, and could not rise above the dignity of legerdemain. Is
it necessary to believe that God is a kind of prestigiator -- a
sleight-of-hand performer, a magician or sorcerer? Can it be
possible that an infinite being would endeavor to secure the
liberation of a race by performing a miracle that could be equally
performed by the sorcerers and magicians of a barbarian king?

Not one word was said by Moses or Aaron as to the wickedness
of depriving a human being of his liberty. Not a word was said in
favor of liberty. Not the slightest intimation that a human being
was justly entitled to the product of his own labor. Not a word
about the cruelty of masters who would destroy even the babes of
slave mothers. It seems to me wonderful that this God did not tell
the king of Egypt that no nation could enslave another, without
also enslaving itself; that it was impossible to put a chain around
the limbs of a slave, without putting manacles upon the brain of
the master. Why did he not tell him that a nation founded upon
slavery could not stand? Instead of declaring these things, instead
of appealing to justice, to mercy and to liberty, he resorted to
feats of jugglery. Suppose we wished to make a treaty with a
barbarous nation, and the President should employ a slight-of-hand
performer as envoy extraordinary, and instruct him, that when he
came into the presence of the savage monarch, he should cast down
an umbrella or a walking stick, which would change into a lizard or
a turtle; what would we think? Would we not regard such a
performance as beneath the dignity even of a President? And what
would be our feelings if the savage king sent for his sorcerers and
had them perform the same feat? If such things would appear puerile
and foolish in the President of a great republic, what shall be
said when they were resorted to by the creator of all worlds? How
small, how contemptible such a God appears! Pharaoh, it seems, took
about this view of the matter, and he would not be persuaded that
such tricks were performed by an infinite being.

Again, Moses and Aaron came before Pharaoh as he was going to
the river's bank, and the same rod which had changed to a serpent,
and, by this time changed back, was taken by Aaron, who, in the
presence of Pharaoh, smote the water of the river, which was
immediately turned to blood, as well as all the water in all the
streams, ponds, and pools, as well as all water in vessels of wood
and vessels of stone in the entire land of Egypt. As soon as all
the waters in Egypt had been turned into blood, the magicians of
that country did the same with their enchantments. We are not
informed where they got the water to turn into blood, since all the
water in Egypt had already been so changed. It seems from the
account that the fish in the Nile died, and the river emitted a
stench, and there was not a drop of water in the land of Egypt that
had not been changed into blood. In consequence of this, the
Egyptians digged "around about the river" for water to drink. Can
we believe this story? Is it necessary to salvation to admit that
all the rivers, pools, ponds and lakes of a country were changed
into blood, in order that a king might be induced to allow the
children of Israel the privilege of going on a three days journey
into the wilderness to make sacrifices to their God?

It seems from the account that Pharaoh was told that the God
of the Hebrews would, if he refused to let the Israelites go,
change all the waters of Egypt into blood, and that, upon his
refusal, they were so changed. This had, however, no influence upon
him, for the reason that his own magicians did the same. It does
not appear that Moses and Aaron expressed the least surprise at the
success of the Egyptian sorcerers. At that time it was believed
that each nation had its own god. The only claim that Moses and
Aaron made for their God was, that he was the greatest and most
powerful of all the gods, and that with anything like an equal
chance he could vanquish the deity of any other nation.

After the waters were changed to blood Moses and Aaron waited
for seven days. At the end of that time God told Moses to again go
to Pharaoh and demand the release of his people, and to inform him
that, if he refused, God would strike all the borders of Egypt with
frogs. That he would make frogs so plentiful that they would go
into the houses of Pharaoh, into his bed-chamber, upon his bed,
into the houses of his servants, upon his people, into their ovens,
and even into their kneading troughs. This threat had no effect
whatever upon Pharaoh. And thereupon Aaron stretched out his hand
over the waters of Egypt, and the frogs came up and covered the
land. The magicians of Egypt did the same, and with their
enchantments brought more frogs upon the land of Egypt.

These magicians do not seem to have been original in their
ideas, but so far as imitation is concerned, were perfect masters
of their art. The frogs seem to have made such an impression upon
Pharaoh that he sent for Moses and asked him to entreat the Lord
that he would take away the frogs. Moses agreed to remove them from
the houses and the land, and allow them to remain only in the
rivers. Accordingly the frogs died out of the houses, and out of
the villages, and out of the fields, and the people gathered them
together in heaps. As soon as the frogs had left the houses and
fields, the heart of Pharaoh became again hardened, and he refused
to let the people go.

Aaron then, according to the command of God, stretched out his
hand, holding the rod, and smote the dust of the earth, and it
became lice in man and in beast, and all the dust became lice
throughout the land of Egypt. Pharaoh again sent for his magicians,
and they sought to do the same with their enchantments, but they
could not. Whereupon the sorcerers said unto Pharaoh: "This is the
finger of God."

Notwithstanding this, however, Pharaoh refused to let the
Hebrews go. God then caused a grievous swarm of flies to come into
the house of Pharaoh and into his servants' houses, and into all
the land of Egypt, to such an extent that the whole land was
corrupted by reason of the flies. But into that part of the country
occupied by the children of Israel there came no flies. Thereupon
Pharaoh sent for Moses and Aaron and said to them: "Go, and
sacrifice to your God in this land." They were not willing to
sacrifice in Egypt, and asked permission to go on a Journey of
three days into the wilderness. To this Pharaoh acceded, and in
consideration of this Moses agreed to use his influence with the
Lord to induce him to send the flies out of the country. He
accordingly told the Lord of the bargain he had made with Pharaoh,
and the Lord agreed to the compromise, and removed the flies from
Pharaoh and from his servants and from his people, and there
remained not a single fly in the land of Egypt. As soon as the
flies were gone, Pharaoh again changed his mind, and concluded not
to permit the children of Israel to depart. The Lord then directed
Moses to go to Pharaoh and tell him that if he did not allow the
children of Israel to depart, he would destroy his cattle, his
horses, his camels and his sheep; that these animals would be
afflicted with a grievous disease, but that the animals belonging
to the Hebrews should not be so afflicted. Moses did as he was bid.
On the next day all the cattle of Egypt died; that is to say, all
the horses, all the asses, all the camels, all the oxen and all the
sheep; but of the animals owned by the Israelites, not one
perished. This disaster had no effect upon Pharaoh, and he still
refused to let the children of Israel go. The Lord then told Moses
and Aaron to take some ashes out of a furnace, and told Moses to
sprinkle them toward the heavens in the sight of Pharaoh; saying
that the ashes should become small dust in all the land of Egypt,
and should be a boil breaking forth with blains upon man and upon
beast throughout all the land.

How these boils braking out with blains, upon cattle that were
already dead, should affect Pharaoh, is a little hard to
understand. It must not be forgotten that all the cattle and all
beasts had died with the murrain before the boils had broken out.

This was a most decisive victory for Moses and Aaron. The
boils were upon the magicians to that extent that they could not
stand before Moses. But it had no effect upon Pharaoh, who seems to
have been a man of great firmness. The Lord then instructed Moses
to get up early in the morning and tell Pharaoh that he would
stretch out his hand and smite his people with a pestilence, and
would, on the morrow, cause it to rain a very grievous hail. such
as had never been known in the land of Egypt. He also told Moses to
give notice, so that they might get all the cattle that were in the
fields under cover. It must be remembered that all these cattle had
recently died of the murrain, and their dead bodies had been
covered with boils and blains. This, however, had no effect, and
Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven, and the Lord sent
thunder, and hail and lightning, and fire that ran along the
ground, and the hail fell upon all the land of Egypt, and all that
were in the fields, both man and beast, were smitten, and the hail
smote every herb of the field, and broke every tree of the country
except that portion inhabited by the children of Israel; there,
there was no hail.

During this hail storm Pharaoh sent for Moses and Aaron and
admitted that he had sinned, that the Lord was righteous, and that
the Egyptians were wicked, and requested them to ask the Lord that
there be no more thunderings and hail, and that he would let the
Hebrews go. Moses agreed that as soon as he got out of the city he
would stretch forth his hands unto the Lord, and that the
thunderings should cease and the hail should stop. But, when the
rain and the hail and the thundering ceased, Pharaoh concluded that
he would not let the children of Israel go.

Again, God sent Moses and Aaron, instructing them to tell
Pharaoh that if he refused to let the people go, the face of the
earth would be covered with locusts, so that man would not be able
to see the ground, and that these locusts would eat the residue of
that which escaped from the hail; that they would eat every tree
out of the field; that they would fill the houses of Pharaoh and
the houses of all his servants, and the houses of all the
Egyptians. Moses delivered the message, and went out from Pharaoh.
Some of Pharaoh's servants entreated their master to let the
children of Israel go. Pharaoh sent for Moses and Aaron and asked
them, who wished to go into the wilderness to sacrifice. They
replied that they wished to go with the young and old; with their
sons and daughters, with flocks and herds. Pharaoh would not
consent to this, but agreed that the men might go. There upon
Pharaoh drove Moses and Aaron out of his sight. Then God told Moses
to stretch forth his hand upon the land of Egypt for the locusts,
that they might come up and eat every herb, even all that the hail
had left. "And Moses stretched out his rod over the land of Egypt,
and the Lord brought an east wind all that day and all that night;
and when it was morning the east wind brought the locusts; and they
came up over all the land of Egypt and rested upon all the coasts
covering the face of the whole earth, so that the land was
darkened; and they ate every herb and all the fruit of the trees
which the hail had left, and there remained not any green thing on
the trees or in the herbs of the field throughout the land of
Egypt." Pharaoh then called for Moses and Aaron in great haste,
admitted that he had sinned against the Lord their God and against
them, asked their forgiveness and requested them to intercede with
God that he might take away the locusts. They went out from his
presence and asked the Lord to drive the locusts away, "And the
Lord made a strong west wind which took away the locusts, and cast
them into the Red Sea so that there remained not one locust in all
the coasts of Egypt."

As soon as the locusts were gone, Pharaoh changed his mind,
and, in the language of the sacred text, "the Lord hardened
Pharaoh's heart so that he would not let the children of Israel
go."

The Lord then told Moses to stretch out his hand toward heaven
that there might be darkness over the land of Egypt, "even darkness
which might be felt."

And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven, and there
was a thick darkness over the land of Egypt for three days during
which time they saw not each other, neither arose any of the people
from their places for three days; but the children of Israel had
light in their dwellings."

It strikes me that when the land of Egypt was covered with
thick darkness -- so thick that it could be felt, and when light
was in the dwellings of the Israelites, there could have been no
better time for the Hebrews to have left the country.

Pharaoh again called for Moses, and told him that his people
could go and serve the Lord. provided they would leave their flocks
and herds. Moses would not agree to this, for the reason that they
needed the flocks and herds for sacrifices and burnt offerings, and
he did not know how many of the animals God might require, and for
that reason he could not leave a single hoof. Upon the question of
the cattle, they divided, and Pharaoh again refused to let the
people go. God then commanded Moses to tell the Hebrews to borrow,
each of his neighbor, jewels of silver and gold. By a miraculous
interposition the Hebrews found favor in the sight of the Egyptians
so that they loaned the articles asked for. After this, Moses again
went to Pharaoh and told him that all the first-born in the land of
Egypt, from the first-born of Pharaoh upon the throne, unto the
first-born of the maid-servant who was behind the mill, as well as
the first-born of beasts, should die. As all the beasts had been
destroyed by disease and hail, it is troublesome to understand the
meaning of the threat as to their first-born.

Preparations were accordingly made for carrying this frightful
threat into execution. Blood was put on the door-posts of all
houses inhabited by Hebrews. So that God, as he passed through that
land, might not be mistaken and destroy the first-born of the Jews.
"And it came to pass that at midnight the Lord smote all the first-
born in the land of Egypt the first-born of Pharaoh who sat on the
throne, and the first-born of the captive who was in the dungeon.
And Pharaoh rose up in the night, and all his servants, and all the
Egyptians, and there was a great cry in Egypt, for there was not a
house where there was not one dead."

What had these children done? Why should the babes in the
cradle be destroyed on account of the crime of Pharaoh? Why should
the cattle be destroyed because man had enslaved his brother? In
those days women and children and cattle were put upon an exact
equality, and all considered as the property of the men; and when
man in some way excited the wrath of God, he punished them by
destroying all their cattle, their wives, and their little ones.
Where can words he found bitter enough to describe a god who would
kill wives and babes because husbands and fathers had failed to
keep his law? Every good man, and every good woman, must hate and
despise such a deity.

Upon the death of all the first-born Pharaoh sent for Moses
and Aaron, and not only gave his consent that they might go with
the Hebrews into the wilderness, but besought them to go at once.

Is it possible that an infinite God, creator of all worlds and
sustainer of all life, said to Pharaoh, "If you do not let my
people go, I will turn all the water of your country into blood,"
and that upon the refusal of Pharaoh to release the people, God did
turn all the waters into blood? Do you believe this?

Do you believe that Pharaoh even after all the water was
turned to blood, refused to let the Hebrews go, and that thereupon
God told him he would cover his land with frogs? Do you believe
this?

Do you believe that after the land was covered with frogs
Pharaoh still refused to let the people go, and that God then said
to him, "I will cover you and all your people with lice?" Do you
believe God would make this threat?

Do you also believe that God told Pharaoh, "If you do not let
these people go, I will fill all your houses and cover your country
with flies?" Do you believe God makes such threats as this?

Of course God must have known that turning the waters into
blood, covering the country with frogs, infesting all flesh with
lice, and filling all houses with flies, would not accomplish his
object, and that all these plagues would have no effect whatever
upon he Egyptian king.

Do you believe that, failing to accomplish anything by the
flies, God told Pharaoh that if he did not let the people go he
would kill his cattle with murrain? Does such a threat sound God-
like?

Do you believe that, failing to effect anything by killing the
cattle, this same God then threatened to afflict all the people
with boils, including the magicians who had been rivaling him in
the matter of miracles; and failing to do anything by boils, that
he resorted to hail? Does this sound reasonable? The hail
experiment having accomplished nothing, do you believe that God
murdered the first-born of animals and men? Is it possible to
conceive of anything more utterly absurd, stupid, revolting, cruel
and senseless, than the miracles said to have been wrought by the
Almighty for the purpose of inducing Pharaoh to liberate the
children of Israel?

Is it not altogether more reasonable to say that the Jewish
people, being in slavery, accounted for the misfortunes and
calamities, suffered by the Egyptians, by saying that they were the
judgments of God?

When the Armada of Spain was wrecked and scattered by the
storm, the English people believed that God had interposed in their
behalf, and publicly gave thanks. When the battle of Lepanto was
won, it was believed by the Catholic world that the victory was
given in answer to prayer. So, our fore-fathers in their
Revolutionary struggle saw, or thought they saw, the hand of God,
and most firmly believed that they achieved their independence by
the interposition of the Most High.

Now, it may be that while the Hebrews were enslaved by the
Egyptians, there were plagues of locusts and flies. It may be that
there were some diseases by which many of the cattle perished. It
may be that a pestilence visited that country so that in nearly
every house there was some one dead. If so, it was but natural for
the enslaved and superstitious Jews to account for these calamities
by saying that they were punishments sent by their God. Such ideas
will be found in the history of every country.

For a long time the Jews held these opinions, and they were
handed from father to son simply by tradition. By the time a
written language had been produced, thousands of additions had been
made, and numberless details invented; so that we have not only an
account of the plagues suffered by the Egyptians, but the whole
woven into a connected story, containing the threats made by Moses
and Aaron, the miracles wrought by them, the promises of Pharaoh,
and finally the release of the Hebrews, as a result of the
marvelous things performed in their behalf by Jehovah.

In any event it is infinitely more probable that the author
was misinformed, than that the God of this universe was guilty of
these childish, heartless and infamous things. The solution of the
whole matter is this: -- Moses was mistaken.


Ingersoll's summing up of the Pentatuch really requires either that you have read the text, or extensive annotation with Bible chapter/verse references for each phrase - otherwise many would not believe that so many patently absurd things are actually supported by Scripture. Again, it's a "reality check" on stories many people still belive are really true:

"Let us admit what we know to be true; that Moses was mistaken
about a thousand things; that the story of creation is not true;
that the Garden of Eden is a myth; that the serpent and the tree of
knowledge, and the fall of man are but fragments of old mythologies
lost and dead; that woman was not made out of a rib; that serpents
never had the power of speech; that the sons of God did not marry
the daughters of men; that the story of the flood and ark is not
exactly true; that the tower of Babel is a mistake; that the
confusion of tongues is a childish thing; that the origin of the
rainbow is a foolish fancy; that Methuselah did not live nine
hundred and sixty-nine years; that Enoch did not leave this world,
taking with him his flesh and bones; that the story of Sodom and
Gomorrah is somewhat improbable; that burning brimstone never fell
like rain; that Lot's wife was not changed into chloride of sodium;
that Jacob did not, in fact, put his hip out of joint wrestling
with God; that the history of Tamar might just as well have been
left out; that a belief in Pharaoh's dreams is not essential to
salvation; that it makes but little difference whether the rod of
Aaron was changed to a serpent or not; that of all the wonders said
to have been performed in Egypt, the greatest is, that anybody ever
believed the absurd account; that God did not torment the innocent
cattle on account of the sins of their owners; that he did not kill
the first born of the poor maid behind the mill because of
Pharaoh's crimes; that flies and frogs were not ministers of God's
wrath; that lice and locusts were not the executors of his will;
that seventy people did not, in two hundred and fifteen years,
increase to three million; that three priests could not eat six
hundred pigeons in a day; that gazing at a brass serpent could not
extract poison from the blood; that God did not go in partnership
with hornets; that he did not murder people simply because they
asked for something to eat; that he did not declare the making of
hair oil and ointment an offence to be punished with death; that he
did not miraculously preserve cloth and leather; that he was not
afraid of wild beasts; that he did not punish heresy with sword and
fire; that he was not jealous, revengeful, and unjust; that he knew
all about the sun, moon, and stars; that he did not threaten to
kill people for eating the fat of an ox; that he never told Aaron
to draw cuts to see which of two goats should be killed; that he
never objected to clothes made of woolen mixed with linen; that if
he objected to dwarfs, people with flat noses and too many fingers,
he ought not to have created such folks; that he did not demand
human sacrifices as set forth in the last chapter of Leviticus;
that he did not object to the raising of horses; that he never
commanded widows to spit in the faces of their brothers-in-law;
that several contradictory accounts of the same transaction cannot all be true; that God did not talk to Abraham as one man talks to
another; that angels were not in the habit of walking about the
earth eating veal dressed with milk and butter, and making bargains
about the destruction of cities; that God never turned himself into
a flame of fire, and lived in a bush; that he never met Moses in a
hotel and tried to kill him; that it was absurd to perform miracles
to induce a king to act in a certain way and then harden his heart
so that he would refuse; that God was not kept from killing the
Jews by the fear that the Egyptians would laugh at him; that he did
not secretly bury a man and then allow the corpse to write an
account of the funeral; that he never believed the firmament to be
solid; that he knew slavery was and always would be a frightful
crime; that polygamy is but stench and filth; that the brave
soldier will always spare an unarmed foe; that only cruel cowards
slay the conquered and the helpless; that no language can describe
the murderer of a smiling babe; that God did not want the blood of
doves and lambs; that he did not love the smell of burning flesh;
that he did not want his altars daubed with blood; that he did not
pretend that the sins of a people could be transferred to a goat;
that he did not believe in witches, wizards, spooks, and devils;
that he did not test the virtue of woman with dirty water; that he
did not suppose that rabbits chewed the cud; that he never thought
there were any four footed birds; that he did not boast for several
hundred years that he had vanquished an Egyptian king; that a dry
stick did not bud, blossom, and bear almonds in one night; that
manna did not shrink and swell, so that each man could gather only
just one omer; that it was never wrong to "countenance the poor man
in his cause;" that God never told a people not to live in peace
with their neighbors; that he did not spend forty days with Moses
on Mount Sinai giving him patterns for making clothes, tongs,
basins, and snuffers; that maternity is not a sin; that physical
deformity is not a crime; that an atonement cannot be made for the
soul by shedding innocent blood; that killing a dove over running
water will not make its blood a medicine; that a god who demands
love knows nothing of the human heart; that one who frightens
savages with loud noises is unworthy the love of civilized men;
that one who destroys children on account of the sins of their
fathers is a monster; that an infinite god never threatened to give
people the itch; that he never sent wild beasts to devour babes;
that he never ordered the violation of maidens; that he never
regarded patriotism as a crime; that he never ordered the
destruction of unborn children; that he never opened the earth and
swallowed wives and babes because husbands and fathers had
displeased him; that he never demanded that men should kill their
sons and brothers, for the purpose of sanctifying themselves; that
we cannot please God by believing the improbable; that credulity is
not a virtue; that investigation is not a crime; that every mind
should be free; that all religious persecution is infamous in God,
as well as man; that without liberty, virtue is impossible; that
without freedom, even love cannot exist; that every man should be
allowed to think and to express his thoughts; that woman is the
equal of man; that children should be governed by love and reason;
that the family relation is sacred; that war is a hideous crime;
that all intolerance is born of ignorance and hate; that the
freedom of to-day is the hope of to-morrow; that the enlightened
present ought not to fall upon its knees and blindly worship the
barbaric past; and that every free, brave and enlightened man
should publicly declare that all the ignorant, infamous, heartless,
hideous things recorded in the "inspired" Pentateuch are not the
words of God, but simply "Some Mistakes of Moses."

Likewise, the arguments in "About the Holy Bible" still cut deep, with no need to reference the science of the 19the centruy or of today:

...IS THE OLD TESTAMENT INSPIRED?

If it is, it should be a book that no man -- no number of men -- could produce.

It should contain the perfection of philosophy.

It should perfectly accord with every fact in nature.

There should be no mistakes in astronomy, geology, or as to any subject or science.

Its morality should be the highest, the purest.

Its laws and regulations for the control of conduct should be just, wise, perfect, and perfectly adapted to the accomplishment of the ends desired.

It should contain nothing calculated to make man cruel, revengeful, vindictive or infamous.

It should be filled with intelligence, justice, purity, honesty, mercy and the spirit of liberty.

It should be opposed to strife and war, to slavery and lust, to ignorance, credulity and superstition.

It should develop the brain and civilize the heart.

It should satisfy the heart and brain of the best and wisest.

It should be true.

Does the Old Testament satisfy this standard?

Is there anything in the Old Testament -- in history, in theory, in law, in government, in morality, in science -- above and beyond the ideas, the beliefs, the customs and prejudices of its authors and the people among whom they lived?

Is there one ray of light from any supernatural source?

The ancient Hebrews believed that this earth was the center of the universe, and that the sun, moon and stars were specks in the sky.

With this the Bible agrees.

They thought the earth was flat, with four corners; that the sky, the firmament, was solid -- the floor of Jehovah's house.

The Bible teaches the same.

They imagined that the sun journeyed about the earth, and that by stopping the sun the day could be lengthened.

The Bible agrees with this.

They believed that Adam and Eve were the first man and woman; that they had been created but a few years before, and that they, the Hebrews, were their direct descendants.

This the Bible teaches.

If anything is, or can be, certain, the writers of the Bible were mistaken about creation, astronomy, geology; about the causes of phenomena, the origin of evil and the cause of death.

Now, it must be admitted that if an infinite Being is the author of the Bible, he knew all sciences, all facts, and could not have made a mistake.

If, then, there are mistakes, misconceptions, false theories, ignorant myths and blunders in the Bible, it must have been written by finite beings; that is to say, by ignorant and mistaken men.

Nothing can be clearer than this.

For centuries the church insisted that the Bible was absolutely true; that it contained no mistakes; that the story of creation was true; that its astronomy and geology were in accord with the facts; that the scientists who differed with the Old Testament were infidels and atheists.

Now this has changed. The educated Christians admit that the writers of the Bible were not inspired as to any science. They now say that God, or Jehovah, did not inspire the writers of his book for the purpose of instructing the world about astronomy, geology, or any science. They now admit that the inspired men who wrote the Old Testament knew nothing about any science, and that they wrote about the earth and stars, the sun and moon, in accordance with the general ignorance of the time.

It required many centuries to force the theologians to this admission. Reluctantly, full of malice and hatred, the priests retired from the field, leaving the victory with science.

They took another position;

They declared that the authors, or rather the writers, of the Bible were inspired in spiritual and moral things; that Jehovah wanted to make known to his children his will and his infinite love for his children; that Jehovah, seeing his people wicked, ignorant and depraved, wished to make them merciful and just, wise and spiritual, and that the Bible is inspired in its laws, in the religion it teaches and in its ideas of government.

This is the issue now. Is the Bible any nearer right in its ideas of justice, of mercy, of morality or of religion than in its conception of the sciences? Is it moral?

It upholds slavery -- it sanctions polygamy.

Could a devil have done worse?

Is it merciful?

In war it raised the black flag; it commanded the destruction, the massacre, of all -- of the old, infirm. and helpless -- of wives and babes.

Were its laws inspired?

Hundreds of offenses were punished with death. To pick up sticks on Sunday, to murder your father on Monday, were equal crimes. There is in the literature of the world no bloodier code. The law of revenge -- of retaliation -- was the law of Jehovah. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a limb for a limb.

This is savagery -- not philosophy.

Is it just and reasonable?

The Bible is opposed to religious toleration -- to religious liberty. Whoever differed with the majority was stoned to death. Investigation was a crime. Husbands were ordered to denounce and to assist in killing their unbelieving wives.

It is the enemy of Art. "Thou shalt make no graven image." This was the death of Art.

Palestine never produced a painter or a sculptor.

Is the Bible civilized?

It upholds lying, larceny, robbery, murder, the selling of diseased meat to strangers, and even the sacrifice of human beings to Jehovah.

Is it philosophical?

It teaches that the sins of a people can be transferred to an animal -- to a goat. It makes maternity an offence for which a sin offering had to be made.

It was wicked to give birth to a boy, and twice as wicked to give birth to a girl.

To make hair-oil like that used by the priests was an offence punishable with death.

The blood of a bird killed over running water was regarded as medicine.

Would a civilized God daub his altars with the blood of oxen, lambs and doves? Would he make all his priests butchers? Would he delight in the smell of burning flesh?"

And this piece on "God's Administration" is both humorous and pointed:

JEHOVAH'S ADMINISTRATION.

He created the world, the hosts of heaven, a man and woman -- placed them in a garden. Then the serpent deceived them, and they were cast out and made to earn their bread.

Jehovah had been thwarted.

Then he tried again. He went on for about sixteen hundred years trying to civilize the people.

No schools, no churches, no Bible, no tracts -- nobody taught to read or write. No Ten Commandments. The people grew worse and worse, until the merciful Jehovah sent the flood and drowned all the people except Noah and his family, eight in all.

Then he started again, and changed their diet. At first Adam and Eve were vegetarians. After the flood Jehovah said: "Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you" -- snakes and buzzards.

Then he failed again, and at the Tower of Babel he dispersed and scattered the people.

Finding that he could not succeed with all the people, he thought he would try a few, so he selected Abraham and his descendants. Again he failed, and his chosen people were captured by the Egyptians and enslaved for four hundred years.

Then he tried again -- rescued them from Pharaoh and started for Palestine.

Then he changed their diet, allowing them to eat only the beasts that parted the hoof and chewed the cud. Again he failed. The people hated him, and preferred the slavery of Egypt to the freedom of Jehovah. So he kept them wandering until nearly all who came from Egypt had died. Then he tried again -- took them into Palestine and had them governed by Judges.

This, too, was a failure -- no schools, no Bible. Then he tried kings, and the kings were mostly idolaters.

Then the chosen people were conquered and carried into captivity by the Babylonians.

Another failure.

Then they returned, and Jehovah tried prophets -- howlers and wailers -- but the people grew worse and worse. No schools, no sciences, no arts, no commerce. Then Jehovah took upon himself flesh, was born of a woman, and lived among the people that he had been trying to civilize for several thousand years. Then these people, following the law that Jehovah had given them in the wilderness, charged this Jehovah-man -- this Christ -- with blasphemy; tried, convicted and killed him.

Jehovah had failed again.

Then he deserted the Jews and turned his attention to the rest of the world.

And now the Jews, deserted by Jehovah, persecuted by Christians, are the most prosperous people on the earth. Again has Jehovah failed.

What an administration!
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #99
101.  ignorant and mistaken men- amusing and true - and not on point except
for those that insist that an English translation of that which was recorded by mere humans must be "perfect" - as if the human judge has a clue as to "perfect" - or that science and it's revelations, and indeed the idea that science likes to say that last years revelation were wrong and here are some new ones, is in conflict with the concept of faith - Ingersoll had faith that all could be answered by science eventually - or with the concept of belief - since none of science claims final truth - only that this is the current belief.

Indeed his version of Heretics And Hericies - while historically true and even true for a few today - is a straw man (read meaning wrong) to most folks of faith today. But it makes a fun speech! :-)

In any case this discussion belongs in a different forum!

peace

:-)
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meegbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
15. What vidoe did he see?
I wanna see it too.
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markus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
16. What forms of faith healing and sympathetic magic should Medicare cover?
Eh, Dr. Frist?

While we're being pluralistic?
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Speck Tater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
19. What FOOLS we've been!
All that money we've wasted on scientific research when we could have just asked congress or the church for the answers!

Does E really equal MC^2? Put it to a vote.
What is the value of PI to 100 decimal places? Ask your pastor.
Do black holes really lose mass to Hawkin Radiation? The Pope can tell you.

Why didn't we try that before; letting the church tell us what is true and what is false.

Oh, wait. We did. It was called The Dark Ages.
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NAO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
21. Evangelical Scientists Refute Gravity With "Intelligent Falling" Theory
Evangelical Scientists Refute Gravity With "Intelligent Falling" Theory
http://onion.com/news/index.php?issue=4133&n=2

excerpt:

KANSAS CITY, KS—As the debate over the teaching of evolution in public schools continues, a new controversy over the science curriculum arose Monday in this embattled Midwestern state. Scientists from the Evangelical Center For Faith-Based Reasoning are now asserting that the long-held "theory of gravity" is flawed, and they have responded to it with a new theory of Intelligent Falling.

"Things fall not because they are acted upon by some gravitational force, but because a higher intelligence, 'God' if you will, is pushing them down," said Gabriel Burdett, who holds degrees in education, applied Scripture, and physics from Oral Roberts University.

Burdett added: "Gravity—which is taught to our children as a law—is founded on great gaps in understanding. The laws predict the mutual force between all bodies of mass, but they cannot explain that force. Isaac Newton himself said, 'I suspect that my theories may all depend upon a force for which philosophers have searched all of nature in vain.' Of course, he is alluding to a higher power."

Founded in 1987, the ECFR is the world's leading institution of evangelical physics, a branch of physics based on literal interpretation of the Bible.

full article at above link

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kahleefornia Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. quite possibly the best Onion ever
that is really really really good.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
23. Yeah, well, idiots tend to do that.
NT!

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geckosfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
28. "Echoing similar comments"- Kissing and making up for stem cells.
"I think today a pluralistic society should have access to a broad range of fact, of science, including faith,"

OK,, then teach it as theology - not science. Just because you believe something does not make it so, nor does it make it science.
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Yep. This has nothing to do with science or even Frist's personal views
This is pure pablum for his base, which has clearly lost patience with him after his stem cell reversal.
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The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
32. God forbid that Frist should ever become ill...
Edited on Fri Aug-19-05 03:45 PM by The Night Owl
God forbid that Frist should ever become ill with a disease that doctors can't explain or treat, but if he does, I would bet a lot of money that he wouldn't want his doctor to waste time exploring supernatural explanations or treatments for his disease.
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VegasWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
34. Frist is just pandering to his redneck base, Bush, otoh, really belives
in this Sky Person bullshit.
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Initech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
35. Different ideas? What a crock! It's not different! It's creationism!!!
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jayfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
37. Well I Back...
Flat Earth creationism. Can we teach that too. Hey, it's just a different idea.

Jay
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
38. Trying to get into the good graces of the Fristians
Are your arms getting tired yet, Dobson?
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iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
39. Has Frist ever had an original thought of his own?
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Dudley_DUright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
40. I nominate Frist to be wanker of the year (as Atrios would say)
for this idiocy (and so much more), and especially since he knows better but feels like he has to pander to his "base".
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Robeson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 05:55 PM
Response to Original message
41. He should have his medical license revoked.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
42. Dr. Quack must have watched a tape about it. n/t
n/t
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BurgherHoldtheLies Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
43. Ex-communicate him from the medical community NOW!
Edited on Fri Aug-19-05 06:18 PM by ModRepubinPA
The wimpy AMA and the medical board of Tennessee need to make a public statement against Frist for this nonsense.

Frist, the 'unscience' Senator!:grr:
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CatholicEdHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
44. Tip-toe give and take
After his Justice Sunday II snub, Frist is testing the waters again by throwing another bone at the base to see if they will return to him.
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cyr330 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
45. No Shit
Did we even need to be told that that asshole supported this fairy tale?
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Fire Walk With Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
46. Give them a single precedent, and it's all over.
That they're trying to set legal precedence in the more supportive states says a great deal.
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Daphne08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
47. Well, of course he is, that man of science, Sen. Dr. Frist
:eyes:
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Along the Red Ledge Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
50. You have GOT to be kidding!
Yes, this from Bill "Terri Schiavo Looks Fine to Me" Frist of cat-killer fame.

*rolls eyes*

Frist is all over the map. He backs scientific stem-cell research</a> but then supports junk 'science' like creationism? He must really be wanting to shine some ass on both sides of the aisle for his reputed run for the 2008 Presidential election!
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Olney Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
52. What gives with Harvard?
It has turned out a supreme court nominee from the dark ages, and an MD who doesn't accept the science of evolution.

How is this happen?!
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
56. He should have his degrees revoked immediatly!
Giving an MD to an anti-evolutionist is like giving a Mechanical Engineering degree to an over-unity believer; or a History degree to a holocaust denier... (i could go on).
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
57. Just trying to remedy stem cell "heresy".....
That crowd doesn't strike me as the "forgiving" type..IIRC
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
58. God doesn't shred evidence, Frist does.
The evidence for evolution is all over the place; the books of Creation are open to anyone with a brain.

Can I help you find your brain, Dr. Frist?
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Aviation Pro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-05 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
59. Someone please....
..revoke his liscense to practice medicine before he kills someone.
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:56 AM
Response to Original message
60. Frist backs 'intelligent design' teaching
Sorry if this is a dupe...

NASHVILLE, Tenn. - Echoing similar comments from President Bush, Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist said "intelligent design" should be taught in public schools alongside evolution.

Frist, R-Tenn., spoke to a Rotary Club meeting Friday and told reporters afterward that students need to be exposed to different ideas, including intelligent design.

"I think today a pluralistic society should have access to a broad range of fact, of science, including faith," Frist said.

Frist, a doctor who graduated from Harvard Medical School, said exposing children to both evolution and intelligent design "doesn't force any particular theory on anyone. I think in a pluralistic society that is the fairest way to go about education and training people for the future."

more: http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/news/politics/12426816.htm

"A broad range of fact, of science, including faith?" What the fuck is he talking about?
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. If this twit ever goes back into practice, I hope I don't have the
misfortune to end up on his table. All politics, all the time.
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SlackJawedYokel Donating Member (446 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #60
62. Posturing for all the people
who finished at the bottom of their graduating class.
They need to feel special, too, ya know?

Cletus
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OffWithTheirHeads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #60
63. The Idiot Chimp is proof
I.D. is bullshit!
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HawkerHurricane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #60
64. I wonder...
if he uses any Intelligent Design theory in any of his long years as a medical doctor...
Oh, that's right, there IS NO INTELLIGENT DESIGN THOERY. 'Gawddidit' isn't a theory.
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #60
65. The meme is strong in this one.
"Gosh, it's just a matter of good ol' equality and pluralism and ideas and apple pie and puppy-dogs. What's wrong with that?"

They're skilled at lying, distorting and deceiving, I'll grant them that much. :eyes:
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buddysmellgood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #60
66. Fine with me, so long as they teach "intelligent falling" and astrology
with it.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #60
67. We should also teach children how to read chicken entrails
in order to foretell the future.

Idiots with idiotic religious views!
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #60
68. How many "Intelligent Design" questions on the MEDCATS?
Edited on Fri Aug-19-05 10:40 PM by Coastie for Truth
Do any of the Human Genetics or Biochem questions have "Intelligent Design" as a choice (and how many points do you lose if you chose it)?

Is "Intelligent Design" part of the curriculum at Harvard Medical School?

He is such a Pander Bear.

If he is Harvard Medical School - I'm glad my doc went to Med School in India.
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Sacajawea Donating Member (797 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #60
69. I bet Harvard Medical School is REALLY proud of that grad.!
What a groveling schmuck...just trying to make up for his support of stem cell research last week. Forget it Bill, it won't help. It's over. Forget 2008. You're done. Just go.
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matt819 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #69
78. I remember a Dear Abby response years ago
At least I think it was Dear Abby. In any event, the point is that half the doctors graduate in the bottom half of their class (even at Harvard Med). You know, I just gotta believe Pastor Frist is in that bottom half.
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fshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #60
70. I back the "idiots resign" interpretation.
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #60
71. Perhaps VOODOO too?? Or bloodletting? Or, Faith Healing in Med Schools?
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Diamonique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #60
72. Here we go!
Frist pissed off the religious right when he spoke out for stem cell research. Now he's trying to appease them with the ID BS.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #60
73. That's Because Frist Isn't Intelligent
Just using the word, intelligent, doesn't mean you have even a theory. What it means is 'Intelligent Design' is a belief, and a dogma to boot. Frist is either gullible as hell or pulling your chain. Either way, he insults you and himself.

That's not intelligent.
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tmooses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #60
74. WTF "debate' is he talking about? I thought debates were on ideas that
had their basis in facts. This is like debating the Copernican Cosmos vs. the Ptolemaic Cosmos. Are we to regress back to the dark ages?
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #74
76. Richard Dawkins said
Calling it a "debate" is like calling an argument between a reproductive biologist and a proponent of the stork theory of reproduction a debate.
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matt819 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #60
75. Why stop there? Let's have Intelligent Medical School
Edited on Fri Aug-19-05 11:14 PM by matt819
That's where they talk about the theories of such things as, say Oxygen being required to sustain life. Why bother with a regular fucking education. Do these assholes even listen to themselves? Would they have advocated this shit when they were at Stanford or Harvard or Yale? They would rightfully have been laughed off campus.

The Onion is spot on when they talk about the teaching of the alternative theory of Intelligent Falling, which, of course, questions the reality of gravity and instead attributes falling to acts of God.

I mean, really. Think about this folks. The Frists are sitting around the dinner table. Pa Frist is a medical doctor and a senator. Do his wife and kids take him seriously when he spouts this shit about intelligent design?

We are not becoming the laughingstock of the developed world. We are the laughingstock of the developed world. While we are plunging headlong into the 2nd century in out thinking, Korea and china are spearheading scientific research, shaking their heads, no doubt, at the pathetic, amusing Americans.

In no time at all the rest of the world will be looking at America and say that they'll take jobs that the rest of the world doesn't want, because that's all they can do, what with their idiotic faith-based education system.

Edited for typos, lest I be accused of following the new faith-based spelling system.
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Pepperbelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #60
77. Your last sentence took the words right out of my mouth.
Edited on Fri Aug-19-05 11:16 PM by Pepperbelly
He's being a mealy-mouthed hypocrite with delusions of grandeur. Surely a Harvard-educated physician could frame a sentence a bit better than that. He was deliberately speaking unclearly so he could grease his way through pandering to the Christo-fascists while maintaining some small shred of dignity.

IMO, he failed.
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MisterP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #77
83. like Jeb's hurricane assurance: God doesn't follow scientists' linear
models.
Big Bro has fuzzy math, Little Bro has fuzzy theology.
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MichiganVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #60
79. Frist is toast with the conservative republican groups
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rugger Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #60
80. How did this fucking idiot make it through college
not to mention medical school

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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #60
81. He's pretty much proof against it, isn't he?
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orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #60
82. i thought high schools did teach this
during their "contemporary issues in american society" class--when they discuss what INSANE FREAKS these people are.

no--go ahead--"teach" intelligent design, then insist the kids learn all about greek & roman mythology (ya know, apollo, zeus, etc) then they can teach OUIJA to the kids:

"a long time ago the universe was just one large flat rectangle board until the mystical planchette decided to create 'letters' and a few words such as 'yes', 'no', and 'good-bye'. when the mystical planchette didn't 'believe' that was enough the numbers were created. and that's how people came to be--through numbers."

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Along the Red Ledge Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #82
95. They teach it in Islamic madrasas...
This point should be made over and over.

To wit:

Western and Islamic educators also express concern that these quietist madrasas, with their defined curricula and dated pedagogical techniques, such as rote memorization, produce individuals who are neither skilled nor prepared for the modern workforce. Defenders of the madrasa system view its traditional pedagogical approach as a way to preserve an authentic Islamic heritage. Because most madrasa graduates have access to only to a limited type of education, they commonly are employed in the religious sector as preachers, prayer leaders, and Islamic scholars.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RS21654.pdf#search='madrasas'

That is the end result of fundamentalist religious indoctrination in the guise of mainstream education. Is this what the fundies like Shrub, Frist, Falwell et al want but with a Judeo-Christian flavor? Dull minded, pliant little drones who tow the line of the status-quo? A generation of papthy greater than the one already present? That is what we have if the wall between church and state is breeched.

Frist's saying that it won't cause any particular harm reminds me of the Aesop's Fable about the scorpion and the frog...

A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The frog asks, "How do I know you won't sting me?" The scorpion says, "Because if I do, I will die too."

The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream, the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown,but has just enough time to gasp "Why?"

Replies the scorpion: "Its my nature..."


The only thing that separates people like Bill Frist and Dubya from people like bin Forgotten and Mullah Omar are only a wee bit of table manners. Nowadays, that particular line is getting thinner and thinner, it seems...

http://skepdic.com/intelligentdesign.html
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theearthisround Donating Member (246 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #60
84. You see children, we were created by lucifer, the wonderous angel of light
From Monte Rio to Rita Moreno
http://www.sfexaminer.com/articles/2005/07/29/columnists/p_j_corkery/20050729_co03_corkery.txt

A parade of Lincoln Town Cars has been ferrying back and forth to Monte Rio the last couple of weeks, bringing notables up to Bohemian Grove for the summer encampment.

-----
Sen. Bill Frist gave one of the Lakeside Talks — a kind of keynote speech given soberly in midday.

What is the Bohemian Grove?
Its where our loving Christian Conservative leaders go to worship a 40 foot owl in the middle of the woods, as Jesus would have.

Photos, News Articles, Video
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2005/070605grovephotos.htm
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/may2005/110505grovephotos.htm
http://www.infowars.com/exclusive_new_bg.htm
http://www.prisonplanet.com/archive_bohemian_grove.html
http://www.infowars.com/bg1.html
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MarinCoUSA Donating Member (783 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #60
85. Hozabout "Intelligennt Falling"? (very funny post)
Melloy did this tonight! Funny Funny

http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4133&n=2
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oioioi Donating Member (320 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #85
86. Matthew 15:14 - Gospel Truth
Proponents of Intelligent Falling assert that the different theories used by secular physicists to explain gravity are not internally consistent.

"Let's take a look at the evidence," said ECFR senior fellow Gregory Lunsden."In Matthew 15:14, Jesus says, 'And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.'

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truthisfreedom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 05:51 AM
Response to Original message
87. go for it, frist!
be the first guy on your block to have no friends on earth!
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mtnester Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 06:36 AM
Response to Original message
88. That Bill Frist even exists is PROOF intelligent design is bunk
eom
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goforit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
90. Throw up!!!
:puke:
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suegeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
91. These people are so embarassing
I'm to the point where this fake republican leadership makes me extremely embarassed to be an American. (in addition to other emotions they make me feel, such as anger.)

Plus, these dipshits are the best of the best? I mean really: This is the best kind of leader our country can produce? Again, it's embarassing to have these people represent us on the world stage.

Bush and Frist don't reflect me at all. They are just a reflection of stupid white man thugs.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
93. faith isn't fact or science - that's why it's faith...sheesh. idiot.
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thebaghwan Donating Member (998 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
96. Kissing the Religious Rights ass again there Bill?
What a sack of horseshit that Frist would tout Intelligent Design. Did Intelligent Design lead to dumbfuck Bush?
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countingbluecars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
97. As a teacher, this really makes me angry.
Just take your kids to church already!
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Dudley_DUright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #97
98. As a science teacher, this makes me really really angry
:mad::mad:
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sakabatou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
102. He's flip-floped again!
GAH! Can't he just stay evil? It'd make our job so much easier...
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yellowjacket7 Donating Member (84 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
103. Frist is a panderer, and he looks so transparent its funny.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-05 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
104. how can a cardiologist say this
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