Fetuses May Not Feel Pain in Early Months

[jefferson_dem]

Fetuses May Not Feel Pain in Early Months
Aug 23 4:15 PM US/Eastern

By LINDSEY TANNER
AP Medical Writer

A review of medical evidence has found that fetuses likely don't feel pain until the final months of pregnancy, a powerful challenge to abortion opponents who hope that discussions about fetal pain will make women think twice about ending pregnancies.

Critics angrily disputed the findings and claimed the report is biased.

"They have literally stuck their hands into a hornet's nest," said Dr. Kanwaljeet Anand, a fetal pain researcher at the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences, who believes fetuses as young as 20 weeks old feel pain. "This is going to inflame a lot of scientists who are very, very concerned and are far more knowledgeable in this area than the authors appear to be. This is not the last word _ definitely not."

The review by researchers at the University of California, San Francisco comes as advocates are pushing for fetal pain laws aimed at curtailing abortion. Proposed federal legislation would require doctors to provide fetal pain information to women seeking abortions when fetuses are at least 20 weeks old, and to offer women fetal anesthesia at that stage of the pregnancy. A handful of states have enacted similar measures.

<SNIP>

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/08/23/D8C5O7M00.html

[merwin]

1. No shit, sherlock

this has been known for a long long time.

[SteppingRazor]

2. I hate when people misuse the word "literally"...

"They have literally stuck their hands into a hornet's nest," said Dr. Kanwaljeet Anand.

No, dipshit, they have literally done nothing of the sort.

[Orrex]

4. Doh!

You're smarter than I am, by at least two minutes!

Damn it!

[SteppingRazor]

5. Nah, not smarter -- It's just that i'm an editor/writer by trade...

These things tend to leap out at me.

[slackmaster]

26. I was mainly a technical writer for about 13 years

Spelling errors, bad grammar, improper punctuation and word usage, etc. all jump off the page.

[Beetwasher]

7. LOL!

:thumbsup:

[ashling]

12. I feel your pain

Literally.

The other day my wife and I literally pissed off a red wasp. I know the difference!

:rofl:

[Lindacooks]

19. So 'Dr.' Anand thinks that he's a hornet?

A flying pest? Seems accurate to me.

[slackmaster]

24. Thank you for saying that, it bothers me too

I was having a problem visualizing people sticking their hands in a real nest of live hornets.

:dunce:

[dean_dem]

35. Who knows...

maybe they really did stick their hands into a hornet's nest. What that has to do with the study though, I have no idea.

[Ilsa]

37. I have heard this nonsense on local newscasts in many cities

over the years, and it really pisses me off that they use "literally" this way. Idiots. And news people are supposed to have had more grammar studies than medical people like myself.

[DemBones DemBones]

47. I doubt that English is Dr. Kanwaljeet Anand's first language so

I'm for cutting him some slack on his misuse of "literally."

[Orrex]

3. God damn it (warning--shameless pedantry inside)

I hate when people misuse "literally." Unless a woman's vagina and/or uterus actually is a hornet's nest, then Dr. Anand should have chosen a different word.

Otherwise, this is an impressive development absolutely 100% certain to be denounced by far-right zealots, just as they denounce all inconvenient science.

[Beetwasher]

8. Well

"Unless a woman's vagina and/or uterus actually is a hornet's nest..."

Maybe you don't know my Ex...

[GoddessOfGuinness]

9. Ow

That must have been painful.

[Beetwasher]

14. Yeah, Worse Than The Time I Dated a

Pencil sharpener :evilgrin:

[IA_Seth]

11. I love that fact....

That our first responses to this article are to chide the doctor for misusing English!

I too was literally fuming! LOL.

[genieroze]

31. To the fundie far Reich a womans vagina is a whore-nets nest.

[Mr.Green93]

6. What does pain have to do with abortion?

We are terminating a pregnancy. Not worrying about some reflexive action.

[Bridget Burke]

13. "Fetal Pain" is one of the major arguments used by....

The Anti-Choicers.

[slackmaster]

16. It's one they use on people who don't believe in "souls"

:nuke:

[AlCzervik]

10. I love this line--i'm sure they don't the irony here

Critics angrily disputed the findings and claimed the report is biased.

Yes they are angry that fetuses don't feel pain at that stage!! They want them to be in pain.

[Holly_Hobby]

15. What about the trauma and pain

an infant feels during child birth? I've heard birth desribed as the most traumatic experience of your life. Should all women have C-sections?

[Ferry Fey]

20. Birthing sensations

"What about the trauma and pain an infant feels during child birth? I've heard birth desribed as the most traumatic experience of your life. Should all women have C-sections?"

No. As it is, the current rate of C-sections is way too high, and medically unnecessary.

The way women describe birthing pain afterward is tied up with our own individual pain thresholds, attitude, and experience. If we go into the process in a way that makes us tense or fearful, that tensing up will compromise the ability to relax and let the baby come. Not all women describe the sensations while birthing as being painful. For many it's an intensity more than a pain. Cartoonist Lynda Barry once described the sensation as being like you are a turtleneck, and the baby is somebody's fat head that it has to get over.

Birthing pain is normally over once the birth has been completed. Recovering from major abdominal surgery is a long and slow healing process, and often leads to insistence by doctors that all subsequent births be done surgically.

Squeezing through the birth canal in a normal birth helps expel some of the amniotic fluid that is in the baby's lungs (it has not been using its lungs before the birth). Caesarians can lead to respiratory distress if the baby has too much fluid still in its lungs.

What does the baby feel? It's hard to say, and I don't think we can really know. While monitoring brain waves may show where the activity is going on, we simply don't know how a non-sentient being would describe the sensation.

[converted_democrat]

40. Welcome to DU, Holly_Hobby!!!!

:hi:

[slackmaster]

17. 20 weeks is later than 99% of US abortions

See http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_fact2.htm .

If it's true that a fetus feels no pain before 20 weeks, that pretty well torpedoes any argument about fetal "suffering". That leaves pro-lifers naked, with only the concept of unique human souls as their basis for arguing the immorality of abortion.

[Massacure]

21. Yes, and the study puts pain starting at weeks 28-30.

So that effectively snuffs any heavy legislation about abortion prior to the third trimester. (Provided they legislate on true science and not Bushit)

[OKthatsIT]

22. I knew this years ago

Just knowing when the spinal cord was developed, connecting the brain to the rest of the nervous system.

no duh.

[slackmaster]

23. That was my thinking on it as well

It's pretty clear the nervous system is a few primitive disconnected pieces at 20 weeks.

[Justyce]

33. Yes, and I think that after 20

weeks is really a little late anyway... a few weeks later & the baby can sustain life on its own outside of the womb. I'm sure I will get flamed & I am definitely pro-choice, but in my *personal* opinion, and everyone has an opinion, I do believe you should make that decision as early as possible, preferably within the first trimester or shortly thereafter... A 20+ week fetus is bigger than you would think (I work in the medical field which may have something to do with my opinion). Though I must say if it came down to choosing, I would definitely still choose pro-choice without a time limitation as opposed to outlawing the choice altogether!

[iverglas]

42. that's part of the actual point

Women who terminate their pregnancies in the third trimester virtually always do so because of severe medical problems either in themselves or in the fetuses. They aren't "choosing" anything other than to protect themselves or prevent worse suffering for the fetus if it is born.

In fact, it is imaginable that if fetuses in the third term of pregnancy are capable of "feeling" pain, those with certain severe defects are in pain already.

A requirement that a woman be instructed about the hypothetical possibility of a fetus feeling pain during abortion, and offered some procedure for administering anaesthetic directly to the fetus that may not be in her own health interests, will do little but increase her distress for absolutely no good reason.

With respect to your comment regarding the size of 20+ week fetuses, the entire point here is that size has pretty much nothing to do with anything.

When it comes to survival after birth, lung development is the paramount factor. It's never been clear to me why anyone would think that the chances of a fetus surviving after birth should have anything to do with a woman's exercise of her rights anyhow.

When it comes to pain sensation, the status of the cerebral cortex is the first factor. Whether "pain sensation" necessarily follows from that status is another question as well, and why that would have any bearing on a woman's exercise of her rights, again, is a separate question.

Whatever your personal opinion is based on, it isn't a basis for interfering in the exercise of someone's rights unless it meets the standards developed for that purpose, and the way things look to anyone doesn't generally do that.

[sandnsea]

46. Exactly, Total non-issue

Now we're going to have some huge debate over abortions and pain when nobody is getting an abortion at the time in question unless it's an emergency anyway. But just watch, our abortion rights groups won't be smart enough to sidestep this, they'll wade right in and help elevate the issue. Just like they did with the D&X procedure.

[burrowowl]

49. I doubt that

after 12 weeks, procedures are more difficult and expensive. Who can afford it!
In Europe, unless serious problems can be shown, abortions are not performed. I think the 12 week limit is also in effect in the U$, this is a medical matter.

[Kipling]

18. What's the latest you can have an abortion in the US?

Presumably not far beyond 20 weeks. So stop whining!

[DemExpat]

25. No way to know for sure, though, what they can feel.....

and how soon a fetus develops this ability to feel pain may vary from one to another.

I personally would rather look at the observations of pediatricians while treating extremely prematurely born babies at around that gestation time to get their views. I am pretty certain that doctors treat premies as if they can feel pain.

DemEx

[slackmaster]

27. Since pain is associated with tissue damage, that makes a lot of sense

Whether they can feel pain or not you have to be gentle with them.

[rodeodance]

29. the question is--can he feel pain in utero?--after birth--yes it is obviou

s--no matter what the gestational age is.

[dutchdoctor]

34. If there is no functional sensory connection from the body to

the higher parts of the brain associated with pain sensation, you can be sure that they don't feel pain.
There is surprisingly little variation between individuals from the same species at this time during development. days, maybe, but not weeks.
Pediatricians treat premies carefully because they are so vulnerable, not because they are afraid to cause them pain.

[iverglas]

43. you need to learn a whole lot more

before doing anything to influence policies about how other people get to exercise their rights.

I am pretty certain that doctors treat premies as if they can feel pain.

There are two very different things involved in what we think of as "pain".

The reason that doctors treat extremely premature infants that way is not necessarily, or only, because they might "feel" pain.

The main reason is that what we call "pain" stimuli produce effects in the body that can affect the subsequent development of the infant's neurological system. Care is taken not to prompt such responses in the neonate's body not (or not only or most importantly) to avoid pain, but to avoid those effects.


No way to know for sure, though, what they can feel.....
and how soon a fetus develops this ability to feel pain may vary from one to another.

Those sorts of statements may work well in religion (there's no way of knowing whether god created the earth in 6 days ...).

They really just don't cut it in science, however.

[FloridaPat]

28. But didn't doctors operate on babies without using anesthia because

for decades they said the babies didn't feel pain?

[Hamlette]

41. they still do, they give no anesthesia for circumcisions telling us

its because babies feel no pain. I called bullshit and consequently my son is not circumcised.

[jefferson_dem]

30. NYT has picked up the study -

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/23/health/23cnd-fetus.html?ei=5094&en=34b02a0950c494c5&hp=&ex=1124856000&partner=homepage&pagewanted=print

[damntexdem]

32. Until they have a functioning brain, how could they?

Sure, they could react locally to stimuli, but they could not feel pain until they had the pain structures in the brain to interpret the stimuli as such.

[Larkspur]

36. My reply to this is in this thread on the other forum

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=228x11886#11891

[Ilsa]

38. I heard this point made at least a decade ago from a nurse

who was with Planned parenthood. The timeframe she had was pretty close to this one. She said "neural ascension does not occur until the seventh to eighth month, therefore, there is no fetal pain."

[bunkerbuster1]

39. Ow. now, THAT's gotta hurt!

...if you're an anti-abortion nut.

Otherwise, it just confirms what any sensible person would presume.

That said I won't hold my breath waiting for the state of Georgia to change their canned "Don't kill your BAYBEE" script a doc's gotta read to a patient in light of this evidence.

[iverglas]

44. here is the seminal work done on this issue

This was undoubtedly one of the important pieces of research reviewed in preparing the study now being reported.
http://www.mrc.ac.uk/prn/pdf-fetal.pdf
google's cached html version:
http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:--pcnv-tcYwJ:www.mrc.ac.uk/prn/pdf-fetal.pdf+fetus+hormonal+pain+stimuli+development&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Report of the MRC Expert Group on Fetal Pain
28 August 2001
1. Background
1.1 In November 1996, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists (RCOG) set up a Working Party in response to questions raised in Parliament relating to fetal pain and awareness. The findings of the Working Party were published in October 1997 in a Report, which highlighted several areas where further research should be undertaken.

The original reason for the study was to determine whether anaesthetic should be used in performing surgery on fetuses in utero -- so obviously, one would expect that the researchers would have been conservative in their conclusions, i.e. look at worst-case scenarios and err on the side of caution -- since their underlying goal was to determine how best to prevent negative consequences for the fetuses in question.

Their recommendations were therefore made from that perspective:

The main recommendations resulting from the Working Party's findings were:

i. that practitioners who undertake diagnostic or therapeutic surgical procedures upon the fetus at or after 24 weeks' gestation consider the requirements for fetal analgesia and sedation;

ii. that practitioners who undertake termination of pregnancy at 24 weeks or later should consider the requirements for feticide or fetal analgesia and sedation;

iii. further research be undertaken into the following areas:
- development of pathways for the transmission of noxious stimuli in the fetus and neonate
- placental transfer of analgesic drugs in the second trimester
- effect of analgesic drugs on stress responses in animal and human fetuses
- potential long term effects of intrauterine procedures, with or without analgesia
- animal research on the effects of opioids on the development of the fetal brain.

[Zhade]

45. "They have literally stuck their hands into a hornet's nest"

Really? They've LITERALLY done that?

"He literally ripped his own head off!" -- David Cross

[DemBones DemBones]

48. Accusations of bias may be justified.

This is from the article:

"The authors include the administrator of a UCSF abortion clinic, but the researchers dispute the claim that the report is biased. "

According to another article I read which is linked at Buzzflash, one author performs abortions and another author formerly worked for NARAL.

Again, from this article:

"Anand, the researcher from Arkansas, said the authors excluded or minimized evidence suggesting fetal pain sensation begins in the second trimester and wrongly assume that fetuses' brains sense pain in the same way as adult brains."

If that's true, the literature review is biased. The connections of review authors to the abortion industry are troubling to begin with. It raises a red flag whenever scientists connected to an industry publish something that is favorable to that industry and designed to overcome public fears about an industrial product. In this case, the "product" is abortion, and women who choose to abort should have reliable information on whish to base their decisions about fetal anesthesia.