Eight Marines Charged in Iraq Death

[kayell]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20031018/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_prisoner_death_2

CAMP PENDLETON, Calif. - Eight Marine reservists stationed at Camp Pendleton have been charged in connection with the June death of an Iraqi man who was held at a detention facility in Iraq (news - web sites), authorities said.



Two of the men, Maj. Clark A. Paulus and Lance Cpl. Christian Hernandez, face negligent homicide charges, said staff Sgt. Bill Lisbon, a Marine spokesman at Camp Pendleton. Charges against the other six range from assault to dereliction of duty.


"I think it's surprising because this is not what Marines do," Lisbon said Friday. "They don't do what these guys are being charged with."


All eight men, who belong to the 2nd Battalion, 25th Marine Regiment, are being held at Camp Pendleton. It was not known late Friday who their lawyers were.


Lisbon acknowledged the charges stemmed from a case in which an Iraqi man died while being detained by U.S. authorities. He would not, however, say whether the case in question was that of a 52-year-old Iraqi prisoner of war, whose corpse was found June 6 at a camp run by the 1st Marine Division near Nasiriyah. The man had been held at the camp in southern Iraq since his capture May 3.

more

[MaineDem]

1. "...corpse was found June 6..."

Did they try to hide it?

This is only the beginning, I fear. Also in the article..."In a separate case, four military police from a Pennsylvania-based Army Reserve unit were charged in July with punching, kicking and breaking bones of prisoners at Camp Bucca, the largest U.S.-run POW camp in Iraq."

[PaDUer]

21. more from the article...

In a separate case, four military police from a Pennsylvania-based Army Reserve unit were charged in July with punching, kicking and breaking bones of prisoners at Camp Bucca, the largest U.S.-run POW camp in Iraq. Those soldiers and their families have denied the accusations.

[0007]

2. Is this just a puff piece?

Perhaps to show that the US is a just and peace loving country run by a God fearing president, that does indeed love the Iraqis and works for humanity and brotherhood?

[Fish Eye]

3. support the troops??

I do not support these animals...

[BlueCollar]

4. for every one of these "animals"

there are tens of thousands of honourable men and women trying to do an honest day's service.

I'll guarantee you that, given the opportunity to decide, they'd rather be home right now.

[Fish Eye]

5. there is no honor

in being a murderer of innocent people. ANYONE who supports the military occupation of Iraq is guilty. You believe that they do not have the opportunity to choose their service to Bush. They have a choice they choose to serve the master Bush. If you are in the military you are guilty of the crimes. Sorry bu tI do not buy into the support the troops crap!! they are a bunch of murdering assholes (MY opinion)

IMO these soldier are making a choice to stay ...I do believe in free will don't you?

[tlcandie]

6. Aye, but most don't have their blinders off Fish Eye...

If once they have their blinders off...having seen the truth of this cabal...and then choose to continue on THAT is where you can NOT support them. At this point, I think most were lured by the various list of reasons I've seen previously posted as to why people join the military.

I guess I'm saying, a fully informed decision is different than one made under ignorance. I'm thinking of the many Veterans of Peace we now have whose eyes were opened in previous wars and some we now have from the Iraq war.

But that is just my opinion :D :hi:

[Fish Eye]

7. good point..

maybe I give to much credit to those in the military....the brainwashing process used by the military against its own is very powerful .

It is hard to belive how people can be duped so easily...sad...:(

I am all for informed descisions!

[JohnOneillsMemory]

19. We are all raised with brainwashing. It's called 'indoctrination.'

It isn't just the military that promulgates lies to get people to do things. Our entire culture does this from the time we are born. Everyone, dems-repubs...everyone is raised with the narrative of lies describing:
1)The US gov't is noble and virtuous.
2)The US gov't represents the people.
3)The US gov't fights for 'freedom and democracy.'
4)The US gov't encourages 'free markets.'
5)The US gov't represents Jesus Christ-like compassion.
6)The US gov't and Americans are God's Chosen People.

These are all lies that we are raised on so that by the time we are 7 years old, we think of America as Jesus in a Superman suit and cowboy hat. That is, the strongest, most virtuous people on the planet.
THIS IS NAZI-LIKE MASTER RACE THINKING. That is the emotionalism that is fueled by Patriotism and gets teens to join the military for a combination of economics and to fight for the 'AMERICAN JIHAD.'

We are all victims of the lies we are swimming in. Some of us are lucky enough to be exposed to another way of thinking or have the grey matter to figure out the LIE MATRIX and the emotional courage to face amazingly disturbing tuths about our government and our fellow citizens. And try to tell the people around us that our government is run by corporate vampires who feed off of us like the amoral parasites they are.

[Fish Eye]

20. agreed but

some choice free will some choose to fight the lie some just sit there and take it some just help the lie and worse some get in the way as apologists for the lie.....

[JohnOneillsMemory]

25. The key: 'Free will' is used on what you think you know. Lies or truth.

So an un-informed decision will not be a good one. That is exactly why democracy has yet to actually work in the US. Democracy was supposed to be carried out by an educated population who could make informed decisions. Bad info=bad choices. Blame an inadequate educational system and a co-opted press who enable these many crimes against humanity and dupe good, well-intentioned people into carrying them out. They are also victims.

[Fish Eye]

27. very true

but it is equally easy for someone to claim they did not know or to censor those conflicting messages that may actually cause a them to think differently than they do or to enter into conflict with others or themselves.

This is something that I see in politics from both the left and the right. I even see it here, much to my dismay. I even see it in myself and that REALLY disturbs me!

I have a pretty narrow definition for victim.

[seventhson]

8. The Troops do NOT support this occupation

Most are young kids who singned up to defens their country in times of peace so they would not starve and so that they would have an education and a chance in life.

Bushco and the American people who let Gore's election get stolen are responsible for them being there. THEY are not. I agree that at any time any soldier may choose to go to prison. But these fine young people are doing their best to PROTECT our country under the command of a lunatic.

Blaming thr SOLDIERS for the insanity of people like Kerry and Gephardt and Bush - who sent these kids there - is WRONG.

They are virtually fucked and you should have some comapssion for them.

Jesus's expression (slightly modified) is apt: Forgive them for they had no fucking idea what they were soing when they signed up. They had no idea they would have to kill innocents and follow sick orders and expose themselves to deadly injections and depleted uranium.

Jesus Christ, Fisheye -- you are blaming the victims. They may not ALL be victims. But tha vast majority are there merely to survive in a corrupt world --- just like the military anywhere.

YES we are an occupying force and it is FUBAR. But these kids did not create this mess: WE DID. We LET BUSH DO IT.

[Fish Eye]

10. Sorry

but,
A. many of those service people in Iraq are reservists and guards people they are not young and dumb. They are making a choice.

B. a victim is only a victim if they have no choice or chance. Those who are there after the war began have a choice they (most NOT all) have a choice and they choose to stay.

The blame the victims card is so completly bogus that I won't even waste my time pointing out how childish and repressive it is.

mabe I am wrong but if so then we condem the majority of those in the military to being mindless drones, morons, and slaves.... and completly without guilt.

Why did we let bush do this??

[kayell]

12. People join the military and reserves for many reasons

financial, education benefits, lack of other training, a desire to serve and defend their country. These people may not have desired to go to Iraq or they may have. The propaganda that we were all given constantly told these people what a terrifying threat Iraq was. How many of these people do you think are in circumstances where they can bail out of Iraq now that they are there? Do you have any idea what that could mean for their future, and that of their families?

Condemning the majority of innocent servicemen and women for the horrific actions of a few, is just as bad as blaming all Iraqis for the actions of a Saddam. If yours is the liberal cause, you are not helping it. Try to understand people, empathize with their concerns, and have a little compassion if you really want to do some liberal good in this world.

We must follow up and fully prosecute any US war crimes, including those right up to the top, if we want to restore a sense of honor to our military. Signing on to the ICC wouldn't hurt.

[Fish Eye]

23. maybe my liberal cause

is based on the assumption that people have free will it is only their weakness that allows them to go along with the crime...


It is true that people join for many reason sbut to stay is to support the crimes.

The BIG lie that people can't get out of their military contracts is BULLSHIT....I know people who go tout when they realized the crimes of their government.

I empathize with most everyone bu tI do not have to support them if the CHOOSE to commit crimes against humanity. I have NO compassion for those who murder.

The ICC WOULD be great starting point but the USA does not believe in justice.

[Zhade]

34. Just had a thought...

What do you suppose BushCo would do if individual soldiers in the military signed up for the ICC (assuming they had such an option, I mean)?

[Fish Eye]

37. Great Idea

being ignorant of international law I would not know if they could...

Knowing Bushco the soldiers would be declared enemy and sent to cuba.

[BlueCollar]

14. as a veteran

and who opposes this "war", marched against it and continue to believe that it is the prelude to the greatest foreign-policy disaster in our history I take exception to your sweeping statements.

Maybe some of those who enlisted after 9-11, believing that the "war" on Iraq was related to the "war" on terror are horribly misguided, but to say that "If you are in the military you are guilty of the crimes" is painting with too broad a brush.

I find it difficult to understand for example, how a corpsman serving in a ship's hospital is "guilty of the crimes."

Once you have enlisted, you are committed. Most, if not all who choose to serve are honourable people. They depend on the electorate to select reasonable and rational leaders...

They don't get to just quit because the American people allowed an a**hole to be selected by a court.

I suspect that few will re-enlist before 2004, and even fewer will re-enlist if Bush is re-elected.

The problem then will be, that those remaining will be even more exposed.

Believe me, if I could have chosen to walk away while I was on active duty, there were many occasions where I might have excercised that option. It wasn't available then, and it isn't available to these men and women now...unless of course you are suggesting desertion.

[Fish Eye]

24. HMMM..

chose to stay and commit a crime against humanity or desert??? easy choice....

Also their are many options for leaving service before your contract is up.

[DS1]

54. ok. name them, I'd love to hear your numerous options

for getting out of the military early short of permanent injury or felony offense.

Go ahead.

[Fish Eye]

58. OK

Gay
religious grounds
moral grounds
breach of contract (if the military has broken its contract with an enlistee then they can leave)
psych
incompatibility designation

[bahrbearian]

9. That Decisison was made by the Supreme Court

[Fish Eye]

11. I don't get it??

?????

[kayell]

13. Your question to the poster

was "Why did we let bush do this??" The answer was that WE did not put * in charge, the majority of the country voted against him, and that therefore the Scalia 5 let * do this.

[Fish Eye]

22. I thought so but......

I do not buy the blame the supreme court line....why not blame gore or the people who let this shit happen?????

[chromotone]

26. Actually, it was the "Big Fix Six" who put Bush in power...

The "Scalia 5" plus Katherine Harris, but what's one number more or less in this horrible nightmare...:scared:

[Fish Eye]

29. conspiracy theories

are entertaining but when they become rhetoric they are dangerous.

please support your position from all angles, even those that point to complicity of the american people and the democratic party (for not fighting the fight)

[chromotone]

53. Oh, really?

You didn't hear of Ms. Harris and her role in removing legitimate voters from the voting roles?:

For Harris, Florida Governor Jeb Bush and his brother, the Texas blacklist was a mistake made in Heaven. Most of those targeted to have their names 'scrubbed' from the voter roles were African-Americans, Hispanics and poor white folk, likely voters for Vice-President Gore. We don't know how many voters lost their citizenship rights before the error was discovered by a few sceptical county officials, before ChoicePoint, which has gamely 'fessed-up to the Texas-sized error, produced a new list of 58,000 felons. In May, Harris sent on the new, improved scrub sheets to the county election boards. Maybe it's my bad attitude, but I thought it worthwhile to check out the new list. Sleuthing around county offices with a team of researchers from internet newspaper Salon.com, we discovered that the 'correct' list wasn't so correct.
http://www.commondreams.org/views/121000-106.htm

You didn't hear of at least three of the SCOTUS justices who saw a Gore win as determintal to their future plans or the plans of members of their families?

Sandra didn't want to retire under a Democratic administration:
As I reported on Dec. 11, O'Connor was visibly upset -- indeed furious -- when on Election Night, Nov. 7, the networks predicted that Gore would take Florida.

"This is terrible," she said, as the announcement came from the television in the basement den of former Ambassador Walter Stoessel's widow's Washington home.

When O'Connor angrily left to get her dinner from the buffet table upstairs, O'Connor's husband John explained that she was upset because the couple wanted to retire to Arizona, but that his wife would never vacate her seat if Gore won. She would remain on the court to deny Gore the opportunity of replacing her.
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2001/010701a.html

Clarence's wife had an interest in Bush winning:
The wife of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas said today that she was working at a conservative research group gathering résumés for appointments in a possible Bush administration but that she saw no conflict between her job and her husband's deliberations on a case that could decide the presidency.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/121200-02.htm

Tony's sons:
Conflict of interest: U.S. Supreme Court Justices Clarence Thomas and Antonin Scalia both had substantial conflicts of interest in this case and probably should have recused themselves. Thomas' wife works for the conservative Heritage Foundation vetting applicants for a Bush administration. Two of Scalia's sons are attorneys with firms that represented Bush. Without even one of those two votes, the election-deciding stay of the recount would not have been issued, and the ultimate decision would have gone Gore's way as well.
http://www.amarillonet.com/stories/122100/opi_guestcolumn.shtml

These are only a few of the truths that surround the Election2000 debacle. For example, the unworkable timetable set by the FL Sec. of State for counting the ballots (what state office is open on 5pm on a Sunday?), or the mobs sent in to stop the recounts (where was the law enforcement?)

I have yet to read Greg Palast's book, or any of the others that go into detail regarding the coup, but intend to do so soon. I have though read his articles as well as the work of others who have taken a investigative look at the shenanigans of sElection2000. I suggest you do the same, and you won't have to ask those of us who have reading/listening/watching news sources other than the corporate media whores since this theft of democracy began to "please support your position from all angles." Sounds like some fucking essay question from a final exam!

The information is there; you find it.

On Edit: This response was to post No. 13, not No. 22. Sorry for the mixup.

On 2nd Edit: Wait, this response IS to No. 13. Sorry for the confusion.

[Fish Eye]

62. I believe what you say

but I also believe that therre is more to the story...

[chromotone]

76. Well, then...

"... please support your position from all angles..."

I'll await your thesis.

[Fish Eye]

80. ok

no thesis but

a. we all gave in
b. we let it happen if the majority of the people did not vote for bush why no general strike why no huge protests?
c. gore gave up to soon should have supported the peoples choice he fucking dissapered!! he should have stayed on as a leader and kept up the fight.


what happened in the 2000 election was a turning point in american history and we all share in the blame to simplify it with blaming it on one thing is narrow minded.

MHO

[jiacinto]

15. How dare you insult our troops

They are good people doing their patriotic duty. These troops should face accountability for their actions.

However, most troops are good upstanding Americans who respect this country and who are truly patriotic.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

[underpants]

16. 8 out of 1.4 million

I agree completely with you.

These are everyday people protecting us everyday and every once in a while they make mistakes many.

[Fish Eye]

18. did I wander into the FR

forums????

what a load of rhetorical crap.

[Fish Eye]

17. LOL

do you actually belive that??

patriotic duty to kill innocent people...bull $%#^

I am ashamed of anyone who supports murdering bastards.....

sure sounds like what I hear from the fundamentalist christians and patriotic assholes who support the war....

Ahamed NOT proud to stand up against injustice.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fish Eye]

32. Pretty strong accusations

I am not discrediting DU I am pointing out that I read a very FR like "support the troops" post here on DU. It was a comment on the poster not DU!!

get you facts before you accuse!

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zhade]

35. The tip-off is the "conspiracy theories" remark regarding Coup 2K.

It's very hard for me not to suspect anyone who actually thinks the chimp WON in 2000. Most people I know - Republicans included - realized the truth a long time ago.

[kayell]

38. They are thick in here today, it's like DU has a rash.

ick

[Fish Eye]

41. so you believe that the truth is a dissruption??

sad :(

[kayell]

57. What truth? I believe that you stated your OPINION

or what you are presenting as your opinion. I am expressing my opinion. Neither of us has a direct line to the TRUTH.

[Fish Eye]

59. the truth

usually includes all sides of an issue

I have stated that there are many reasons for bush taking power but some choose to lay the blame only on the supreme court.

My opinion includes more facts than that.

[kayell]

63. I formed my opinion of you from other factors than did Zhade,

although I think his observation may very well be right.

[Swede]

71. What truth?

That you want Americans to die.

[Fish Eye]

89. I do not want americans or anyone else

to be murdered but when a murderer is kiled in defence then I can only think that there is justice.

[Fish Eye]

40. Please read posts before you respond

I was only saying that we all are to blame for Bush being in office....the elections were crooked, the supreme court ruled in a biased way, gore DID NOT FIGHT!, and we did not protest enough.

if the truth makes me a disrupter then so be it.

[Zhade]

42. Then I apologize.

I misread your statement. My apologies.

[Fish Eye]

44. you had better not be

kissing ass!!

:)

[Zhade]

46. Never!

I am vehemently against ass-kissing. :)

[Fish Eye]

49. GOOD..

because ass kissers piss me off!!

LOL

[Melinda]

43. No matter what he is 'labeled', anyone who wishes this:

Earlier this morning, on this thread, Fish Eye said:


"May all the fruits of this war be justly delivered to those who began it and those who commit it. May all who support it reap their rightful rewards. May our troops be slaughtered in the dusty steets of Iraq and may those polititians who supported this war be hung from their necks as the traiters of justice they are. May all those who voted for them also receive justice."

It's obvious to me that s/he does not share our democratic values. And I'm completely creeped out....... :(

[Fish Eye]

47. Glad I could creep you out!!

what creeps me out is apologists for those who murder.... democratic values..


support the murder of innocent????????!?!?!?


WTF

[Melinda]

55. WTF? Why are you here? Do YOU have a kid in Iraq?!?

Just whose family members do you think are in Iraq right now anyway... the corporate elites?

You come here and call our children and family members murderers and then YOU CALL FOR THE MURDER OF OUR LOVED ONES.

Help a gal out, please. How do you rationalize this thought?

[Fish Eye]

60. I would never let my LOVED ones

become murderers. NEVER. I believe a soldier operating as an invadeer in another country who kills another person there has committed murder.

Those who kill our soldier in Iraq are deffenders not those who murder.

Put the shoe on the other foot ...would you kill to defend you home and family??

Be honest....

Your opinion is indicative of the arrogance that has led out nation into a dark time.

[Melinda]

64. So you are a totalitarian within your family unit....

Pray share with us how you exercise complete control over your LOVED ones.

[Fish Eye]

68. pretty dumb question

how about this

would you let your loved on commit murder??????

dare you to answer

[Melinda]

79. Dare me to answer? This isn't 2nd grade, Fish.

I did my best to ensure that my children were equipped with critical thinking skills. That they had the tools needed to make informed decisions in life, and that they understood that for every action they undertook (deliberate or otherwise) there would be a more or less equal reaction.

I knew, as most parents do, that my children would grow up and begin lives of their own and that my job as a parent was to give them a solid foundation of love and values and mores from which they could flourish as an individual... I knew then as I know now, that I did not OWN my children, but rather I was entrusted with their care and keeping.

And I am proud of the young men they have become, regardless our occasional juxtaposed and varying views.

And your question is fallacious, a straw man, hence the "dare".
Surely you can do better.

[Fish Eye]

81. how bout a nice

would you willingly let you children go out and murder someone??

no dares just an honest question

[Swede]

65. So you order your relatives not to join the military?

Sounds like a dictatorship.

[Fish Eye]

69. I would show them the truth

and I believe that they would choose to not become murder machines for a currupt government. If they choose to join I would not support their decision.

[Swede]

73. And when they wind up in Iraq

you hope they get killed. Wow.

[Fish Eye]

83. justice should have no

boundries if I let them go I would be guilty and I would pay. I trust that I would not raise murders but would do everything I could to foil their trip to iraq..

[Swede]

86. So I imagine you tell all your friends,relatives and co-workers

When they join the military--"You are a murderer and I hope you die"?

[Fish Eye]

87. Nope

I would oppose their joining the military but I would not hope that they die.

If they were to participate in murderous acts then I do believe their deaths by the hands of those who they were trying to murder would be justified.

I do NOT want to see death and war but I feel that when you try to murder someone they haev the right to defend themselves to the death.....I would fully expect my fellow americans fight to the death if we were invaded.

I am very sorry if my morality transcends nationalism.

pray for peace but expect some blood to be shed before justice comes.

I do not advocate murder but I do advocate killing in self defense of ones life and liberty.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fish Eye]

72. again I ask would you

let your loved one become murderers?????

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fish Eye]

84. why can't you answer a question

in you rown words?? are you afraid of the truth??

[Zhade]

50. Er, yes, that is a bit extreme.

I did notice a slight moderation of similar thoughts in this thread, once others pointed out the folly of blaming those who have been decieved.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fish Eye]

66. maybe there would be more

justice in the world without so many pacifists and apologists for murder.

if my opinion if radical then good because ther needs to be a radical change of pace or we all lose..

just because I belive that the coup of 2000 was the fault of everyone makes me a disruptor????

well sorry to bust your bubble but the truth includes some critiscm of the democrats and until the Democratic party shows some spine and actually supports justice instead of corporate donors then we are all fucked.

[Swede]

67. Fish Eye wishes death to the troops,most from poor minority families,

most 18 to 25 years old. Sounds freepishly strange to me.

[Fish Eye]

75. I only wish for justice

and sometimes the balance of justice comes through spilled blood...read your history American!

[kayell]

88. That is one of the most appalling things I have ever heard anyone say

I assume that you are refering to events like the civil war. Let me tell you, even "good" wars do not result in justice for individuals on the ground. My gggrandfather fought in that war, I may never know for which side, because his wife would never tell. He was a poor TN hill farmer, no slaves, apparently went off to fight whichever cause he believed was right. While he was gone, one side stole the horses, the other side stole the cow. He never returned. My ancestors grew up in far worse poverty than before. I'm sure that the civil war looks like justice, but did the kids who died in Gettysburg feel it was justice? Did my gggrandmother who was pregnant when she lost everything think it was justice?

To desire to achieve so called justice through violence is barbarism. That is the right wing solution to revenging 9/11. Kill more people, it'll make you feel better.

Go off and study some Ghandi or MLK, there are far more effective ways if what you really want is justice.

[Fish Eye]

91. Justice

comes in many ways

peace is by far the first choice. I think that you have misunderstood my overall point:

Those who attack another and are killed are not mudered.
Those who attack and kill people are murderers.
If a person kills in defence then that is sad but it is just.

I hope that I never have to kill a person (I know I would never murder) but if I had to I would.

I have studied Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr. (not MLK have some respect!!)

was it just for Ghandi to sell out the lower casts for independence??

Don't forget the civil rights movement had a militant component who is to say what turned the tide?

[PaDUer]

78. I believe that post..

has been deleted from that thread..I think someone should send those posts to their so-called universities, also trace their IP address for their identities, and turn them over to the law enforcement. These people need psychiatric help desperately due to being a threat to society..

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TacticalPeek]

52. "anyone who supports murdering bastards"

One problem in your analysis, IMO, is where you conflate institutions with individual actions and responsibilities, thereby infusing your position with several contradictions. For example, feeling properly outraged as you do against these eight thugs, you must strongly support the troops who will prosecute the offenders, the troops who will guard them in the brig during their punishment, etc. Therefore you must support a military institution that punishes and minimizes thuggery and murder.

That is, unless your position is against any military force as inherently immoral. Even then, or specifically in this case, a strict and pure moral stance is extremely arduous to maintain. Are you a taxpayer? Do you help buy bullets that kill innocent children, etc.? Should the corpsman treating wounded troops and civilians recognize some ultimate contributory morality and desert his patients and unit? Similarly, should you refuse to pay blood taxes and either go to prison or become a fugitive?

I guess all I'm saying is it may not be as black and white as you think, and that even your black and white constructs are somewhat blurred. I see no posts that support the eight murdering bastards.

[Fish Eye]

56. wrong

morality is black and white on a case by case basis

example: there is a difference between killing and murder in both cases there is death.

no I do not confuse the institution with the indavidual because the institution does not exist without the individual therfore the institution is the sum of the individuals the instutution is only as powerful as the indaviduals let it be. Those who will take control of an institution can only control the intitution if the indaiiduals let it be controlled. I hold the individuals reponsible when the institution commits crimes.

without the active participation of indaviduals the institution will cease to exist. Peolple create institutions and then try to shift the blame on the institution this is imoral IMHO.

to answer your questions:

That is, unless your position is against any military force as inherently immoral

only if used in offence

Even then, or specifically in this case, a strict and pure moral stance is extremely arduous to maintain. Are you a taxpayer?

I pay property tax and sales tax

Do you help buy bullets that kill innocent children, etc.?

possibly but I choose actions to limit my moral deficit in that regards

Should the corpsman treating wounded troops and civilians recognize some ultimate contributory morality and desert his patients and unit?

if the corpsperon is fixing a wounded soldier to go and kill again then yes otherwise they must do what they can to leave

Similarly, should you refuse to pay blood taxes and either go to prison or become a fugitive?

try thinking outside your slave state mentality you pass up many other options.

[chromotone]

28. What ever happened to this story?

The resulting story, published Friday, included Covarrubias' account of slipping away from other Marines after the battle in pursuit of the Iraqi Republican Guard member who fired a rocket-propelled grenade at his unit, causing a blast that gave him a concussion and wounded several other troops.

The 20-year veteran of the Marine Corps said he found the soldier after dark inside a nearby home with the grenade launcher next to him. Covarrubias said he ordered the man to stop and turn around.

"I went behind him and shot him in the back of the head," Covarrubias said. "Twice."
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Apr-26-Sat-2003/news/21192287.html

[DuctapeFatwa]

39. I think people feel more comfortable criticizing General Boykin

The atrocities committed by the Crusaders are not nearly so distasteful to the voting classes, and I am sad to say, even DU posters, if one is to judge by the half dozen or so current General threads goiing.

It it intriguing that people are more outraged about the General's statements regarding regime policy, than they are about the actions, which believe me, of much more importance to the rest of the world, especially the victims.

[Zhade]

31. "Support the troops, citizen!"

NEVER when they do shit like this! :mad:

[kayell]

36. Yes, but don't confuse these 8 with the other 139,992 over there

Prosecute these 8 to the absolute fullest extent possible. Make sure that every incident like this is prosecuted fully. Hang the bastards out to dry, then send Cheney, *, Rumsfeld, et al. to the Hague.

And bring the rest of the troops home

[Zhade]

45. Duh. Of course I know better!

I mean "I do not support the troops when they do this kind of thing". Perhaps my comment was not as clear as I intended.

I agree with the Hague suggestion!

[kayell]

74. I'm sorry, I'm starting to get prickly this morning

I also unfortunately know that not all the other troops are innocent. The circumstances of this war, with Americans whipped up into a anti-terrorist froth, troops led to expect kisses and flowers after invading another nation, then left without sufficient food, armor, or water in grueling conditions, knowing that their country has gotton a pass on war crimes, commanders that order them to do things that are going to incite the populous, obviously horrid trainiing in mid-eastern cultures, many with a fundamentalist christian bias against muslims, has always been a recipe for disaster.

It's going to be really hard to know who are the good guys, the bad guys, or just the ordinary people unfortunate enough to get trapped over there. I doubt there is much interest in the * administration or Rummys pentagon to go after any other than the most obvious abuses. Yet that is so important for the morale and pride of the other troops. Although one has to wonder how much pride the troops feel anymore. It sounds like they know what a pile of shit was sold to them.

[DuctapeFatwa]

48. & don't forget the victims of those 139,992 who didnt get media attention

like this prisoner or little Ali did.

[IndianaGreen]

51. A foreign occupation of an invaded people will dehumanize both sides

The occupiers will view the occupied as the enemy that must be destroyed. The occupied will view the occupier as the evil that must be erradicated at any cost.

The longer the US remains in Iraq the more we will become like the IDF in Gaza, or France in Algeria.

The Iraqis that collaborate with the US will get a taste of what happened to those that collaborated with foreign occupying powers in the past.

[JohnyCanuck]

77. No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.

Following James Madison quote found in the article Brainwashing America by Norman Livergood

"Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes. And armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended. Its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force of the people. The same malignant aspect in republicanism may be traced in the inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war . . . and in the degeneracy of manners and morals, engendered by both. No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare."

James Madison, April 20, 1795

[TahitiNut]

90. Locking this thread.

Please see MESSAGE BOARD RULES which says, in part:

We do not typically delete threads which many members may consider to be "flamebait." However, the administrators will occasionally remove threads which we arbitrarily consider too rhetorically hot or too inflammatory. Please use good judgment when starting threads; inflammatory rhetoric does not normally lead to productive discussion.

If you are the type of person who just can't get along with other people, and if you seem to repeatedly cause trouble, eventually we will decide that your presence is a disruption and we will ban you. It doesn't matter if you are a progressive or a long-term member of this board.

There are no exceptions to these civility rules. You cannot attack someone because they attacked you first, or because that person "deserved it," or because you think someone is a disruptor. We consider it a personal attack to call a liar a liar, to call a moron a moron, or to call a jerk a jerk.

Thank you for your understanding and cooperation,
TahitiNut - DU moderator