U.S. border patrol helicopter downed by illegals

[ahimsa]

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A U.S. Border Patrol helicopter was forced to make an emergency landing after illegal immigrants pelted it with baseball-sized rocks, damaging a rotor, a spokesman for the agency said on Thursday.

There were no injuries as the helicopter's pilot was able to set the aircraft down just north of the All American Canal on the border between the U.S. and Mexico, Border Patrol spokesman Michael Gramley said.

Authorities say smugglers are becoming increasingly willing to use violence against border patrol agents as their trade becomes more profitable, with smugglers able to earn about $2,000 per person.

The helicopter pilot was responding to a call for help from agents on the ground on Tuesday evening when about 10 people on the south bank of the canal began hurling large rocks at the aircraft.

...

Click here for article

[HysteryDiagnosis]

1. Same thing is happening in Iraq.... over there we call them

terrorists. Howzabout it george.

[ahimsa]

2. Maybe we should give them special "sports visas"

..with a throwing arm like that! :wtf:

[bribri16]

67. Uh oh, thow "rock-throwing" crowds. They are really dangerous and pose

a real threat to an armed force like the US military.

[jokerman93]

79. dead-enders n/t

[LibertyLover]

87. Threat to US Military

Not just rock throwers, but snakes, groundhogs and skunks too. My stepdaughter works for a government contractor up at Aberdeen Proving Ground. Her job? Going out on calls from the troops to remove non-poisonous snakes, groundhogs, skunks and beetles from their barracks and training areas. One guy even called to complain that there were lots of deer standing near the barracks and looking at him funny. It was a doe and a fawn having an early morning munch.

[AnneD]

89. Isn't that just peachy,

another US job outsourced. There are many abled bodied, unemployed Americans willing and down right eager to pelt certain people and institutions. Instead it is outsourced.:sarcasm:

[JoFerret]

94. Maybe they could get signed up

for Iraq and become legal at a stroke.

seriously ....this immigration situation all over is headed for a disater.

[htuttle]

3. Spend a half million on a helicopter, and they down it by throwing rocks

There's a lesson in there somewhere.

[TroglodyteScholar]

4. That was my thought, too...n/t

[Robeson]

31. You gotta point.

[StrafingMoose]

48. I suspect...

something more like the Los Zetas or a by-product of it downing (or at least try to) it with something more capable than just an arm that's, supposedly, able to lob up a rock big like a baseball high enough to hit a chopper...

[leetrisck]

5. I hate this - very dangerous

situation.

[NNN0LHI]

6. This has a David and Goliath tinge to it n/t

[neuvocat]

99. Yeah. What happens when they use slingshots?

I'm pretty sure that these people are emboldened (sp?) by what's going on in Iraq-the supposedly strongest military in the world is getting beat down by a bunch of people living in the desert.

[DRoseDARs]

7. The wording they chose for the title is very leading...

I realize that fear and loathing the Brown Menace is very much in vogue these days, but "downed" invokes images of a crash-and-burn of the craft and the death of its crew.

[ret5hd]

12. VERY VERY misleading...read it carefully...

the rocks were coming from the SOUTH side of the bank...HOW CAN THEY BE ILLEGALS IF THEY ARE ON THE SOUTH SIDE OF THE BANK? unless i'm misreading something.

[msongs]

21. Yes it should have said "Mexicans attack US helicopter.." ? nt

[ret5hd]

36. maybe even "mexicans attack u.s. helicopter in mexican airspace"

[StrafingMoose]

45. I don't know the region...

but isn't Mexico south of USA?

[leesa]

51. Exactly! They weren't even IN the US.

And a helicoptor close enough to be brought down by rocks sounds a bit like dangerous harrassment.

[barb162]

59. AZ is still in the US

[ret5hd]

102. they were on the SOUTH bank of the canal thats on the border...

so, they were in MEXICO, weren't they? sounds to me like the _U.S._ helicopter is the one that may have been on foreign turf...unless those mexicans got mighty good throwin' arms, that is.

[barb162]

111. per AP, they were in CA, north of the Mexico border

"YUMA, Ariz. It could make aviation history: a helicopter downed by rock-throwing illegal immigrants just north of the U-S-Mexico border.

It was a close call for the Border Patrol pilot and an observer.

The A-Star helicopter was in California, several miles west of Yuma, Arizona, when a group of immigrants began throwing rocks at the aircraft. A Border Patrol spokesman says one baseball-sized rock gashed the rotor, forcing the pilot to make an emergency landing. No one was hurt.

After the incident on Tuesday, 17 people were arrested for illegally crossing the border, and two of them were being investigated for smuggling. Ten others escaped.

Copyright 2005 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed."

[ret5hd]

113. per reuters... (all caps emphasis mine)...

<snip>
There were no injuries as the helicopter's pilot was able to set the aircraft down just NORTH of the All American Canal on the border BETWEEN the U.S. and Mexico, Border Patrol spokesman Michael Gramley said.
<\snip>

<snip>
The helicopter pilot was responding to a call for help from agents on the ground on Tuesday evening when about 10 people on the SOUTH bank of the canal began hurling large rocks at the aircraft.

<\snip>

[BlueJac]

60. No wonder Iraq is so tough!

[knitter4democracy]

38. And it sounds like the smugglers were the instigators.

Smugglers aren't "illegals"--they're criminals preying on desperate people.

The whole piece is stinky.

[barb162]

8. If this isn't a case for beefed up security on that border, then I don't

know what the hell is. Now what would happen to an American on the Mexico side of the border if we did this?

[ret5hd]

37. sounds to me like this was a case of american helicopter over mexican...

airspace.

[Ganja Ninja]

66. Sounds like the chopper was dusting them with it's rotor wash ...

as a form of harassment. They would have had to be pretty low to be hit and downed by a rock.

[Horse with no Name]

112. That was my thought as well

It's actually the only thing that makes sense.
But we'll never hear the truth.

[Javaman]

9. Moron* with his fucked up folly in Iraq, has shown the world we...

are a paper tiger. We have bombs, we have tanks, we have fighter planes, but what we don't have is a defense against a simple rock.

not just the terrorists are watching what happens in Iraq, the whole world is. moron* has empowered every nut job, wanna-be, terrorist, angry american, pissed off neighbor, overthrown gov't, disenfranchised citizen of an impoverished country, in to thinking, "hey, they are blowing up US troops with homemade bombs and staged a successful take over at an Iraqi prison with nothing but rocks and slings for over a week, so can I!"

He has done more to fuck us over than the terrorists.

colossal failure*.

[FreakinDJ]

14. Very well said

My thought exactly

George b DumbAss has proved to the world we don't have a clue as to what we are doing.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

28. If the money that America has allocated to it's "defense" was actually

spent for that purpose...we'd own the world.

Instead, we've got a couple of rich, fat guys.

[Tesha]

35. Cost of rock: $0 Cost of defense against rock: $1,000,000.

> Moron* with his fucked up folly in Iraq, has shown the world we
> are a paper tiger. We have bombs, we have tanks, we have fighter
> planes, but what we don't have is a defense against a simple rock.

Cost of rock: $0 Cost of defense against rock: $1,000,000. Value
of unseating Shrub and restoring Democracy in America: Priceless.

Sorry, I couldn't resist that last bit. But the disparity in the cost
of the weapon against the cost of the defense is why we will *NEVER*
be able to win a guerilla war against a suitably-motivated enemy.
They can *ALWAYS* find some cheap means of attacking, the defense
against which requires an enormous expenditure of money, time, and/or
personnel.

The Viet Cong discoverd sharpened bamboo stakes dipped in shit and
booby-traps made with our own hand grenades ad some twine.

The Iraqis have developed cheap shaped charge IEDs that blow the shit
out of our million-dollar vehicles.

The Mexicans have discovered rocks.

And all are effective at stopping high-tech warriors like the US
armed forces.

Tesha

[Mairead]

49. One wonders when they'll re-discover catapults, trebuchets, onagers,

ballistae etc.

Can't you just imagine flying along in your 'migra chopper when, out of nowhere, a 3kg rock driven by strips of innertube comes smashing into your airframe at 300km/h

(edit) Or instead of a rock, a Molotov cocktail?

[Tesha]

76. "Fetchez la vasche!" (sp?) (nt)

[SidDithers]

80. Vache...but very funny anyway :) nt

Sid

[MetaTrope]

81. Won't the Star Wars technology be able to shoot a rock out of the air?

:thumbsup:

[teknomanzer]

55. Reminds me of a Simpsons episode...

"The monkeys paw" or something... in one scene Moe Syzlak is chasing a space alien armed only with a board with a nail in it...

(sigh) life has become an evil cartoon.

[Zhade]

82. Hey, do you have a good source on that prison takeover story?

I somehow missed that!

[Javaman]

100. I knew someone would ask me that. Yes, I do...

The whole article is fasinating.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/23/AR2005082301525.html

[Zhade]

101. Many thanks!

NT!

[GetTheRightVote]

10. It is time to end this situation & keep the illegals out of our nation

they must be stopped at the border now. Why is the congress allowing this problem to grow out of control like this ??

:kick:

[High Plains]

19. You are parodying a right-wing nativist, right?

How would you go about it? A hundred thousand more cops? A 50-foot wall from San Diego to Brownsville and another from Vancouver to Maine? I fear it would take a police state to achieve what you want.

This is like trying to fight the war on drugs. You're up against, I hate to say it, market forces at a macro-level. Nothing is going to stop the flow of poor Mexicans et al toward greater economic opportunity except more equity in the living conditions in the two countries. And that's a long-term project.

In the meantime, like the war on drugs, prohibition ain't working. I say it's time to regulate the flow instead of forlornly trying to block it. If that means guest worker visas and even amnesty, so be it.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fleabert]

29. they want their land back?

That will get a good laugh when I tell it to my husbands family- he's first generation, btw.

Hilarious. :sarcasm:

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nihil]

46. "a 'third world' 'bananna republic'. Unitl then, we are sooo baaaaad"

Let's see ...
. Nepotism in leadership? - Check
. Fixed elections? - Check
. Control of the mass media? - Check
. Reliance on "patriotism" to devalue opponents? - Check
. Third-rate "education"? - Check

... what else is there before you acknowledge it RedOak?

:hi:

(PS: I like Americans, just not the Bush-led part of the country)

[fleabert]

63. again...

fucking hilarious.

:sarcasm:

[Zhade]

85. "until the U.S. becomes a 'third world' 'bananna republic'"

Where've you been the last few years, in a cave?

[raccoon]

43. where did you hear that?

"1 in 8 Mexican citizens live in the USA right now! "

[Zhade]

86. The Encyclopedia Pullingitouttamyassica?

NT!

[fleabert]

119. LOL!

now THAT is really funny!

[leesa]

52. Duh! They were in MEXICO, how could they be illegals??

Why aren't you going after the rich corporatists who hire cheap labor??

[Zhade]

84. "There's nothing "police state" about having a tight border."

Tell that to the former East Germany.

[High Plains]

97. The helicopter shoot down you refer to was in Albuquerque,

which is nowhere near the border. And it was shot down by a good old white American. <http://www.krqe.com/expanded.asp?ID=11551>

I hope that link worked.

And this fear of the reconquista is absolutely ridiculous. A tiny minority of Mexican-Americans are into that. I mean, really, this is almost like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion: "They want their land back, and the more radical groups are really pushing for it. Part of the plan is to saturate the US with illegal immigrants."

Yeah, right, all those Mexicans are coming north to work menial jobs because some pimple-faced college-kid MECHA activist told them to as part of a long-term plot to redress historical grievances. Maybe in the MECHA kid's dreams...

[Robert Oak]

118. three ways

seriously jail time and fines for employers who employ illegal aliens.
Stop the false documents (fake social security numbers) trade in the US.
repeal NAFTA/CAFTA so these countries stop repressing their workers
where all of the money goes to the super rich in those countries and multinationals and so they can start building up a quality of life/middle class in their own nations.

[Javaman]

58. There is a very simple and logical way, but no one will do it...

Force the people that hire illegals to pay them a living wage and have their workers be requires to show proof of citizenship. What that creates, is job opportunities for average Americans.

Americans don't take those jobs because they don't pay shit. Illegals take them, because they work as a unit. Sleeping 7 to 8 people to an apartment. Pooling their money together to support the group, sending the left over back to their families in Mexico. Ask any American right now, if they want to do that. It would be a resounding no, because even the poor Americans in our society, given our standard of living, have to make X amount of money to survive (paying basic medical care, child care so they can work, etc). And with a living wage and strict work laws, child labor in the fields would be a thing of the past.

Face it, right now, the hiring of illegals at wages better than they are making in Mexico and else where, but lower than minimum wage here, is the reason why they come. These people break their ass to survive.

However, if you make the jobs they want more competitive with the average American, then there will be a decrease in the tide, it won't go completely away, but it will be controllable. They will have to compete with Americans who also need the job.

When average Americans see that they can make good money doing what the illegals do now, then there will be more jobs created.

As it is now, the various people that hire illegals know that they fall below the radar because they don't have to pay into workman's comp etc.

Once we clean up the violators that hire illegals, then it's fixed.

Stopping illegals at the border solves nothing.

[Zhade]

88. We have teh winnah!

Yes, it's just that easy.

Which is why, of course, it won't happen anytime soon.

[JoFerret]

92. UNIONIZE....pay living wages and benefits

then patrol whatever.

[fleabert]

120. I agree with you, for the most part, but remember that

there is another problem... a lot of 'illegal' immigrants have fake legal documents. Their employers don't know they are here illegally, and taxes are taken out, but are never recouped by the worker (SS for instance). there is a huge amount of income from these unclaimed monies, and we may not have had such a large surplus in Social Security without it. Not that it really matters now, of course.

Not all employers of illegal/legal immigrants are paying an unlivable wage, I know of farms in Oregon that pay quite well (considering) for farmhands and the vast majority are the same people year after year, most of them from Mexico, legal and illegal. They make the same as the white folks- there just aren't that many. In fact, knowing the person who does the hiring for that job, they tell me that the white people last about two days 'cleaning a field' before they quit, for the most part. This same person told me about discovering fake documents long after the season was over, and not rehiring those persons the next season, until they got legal documentation. It can be very difficult to discern the fakes, there is little to know support from the government to train employers on what the actual documention should look like, and what the fakes look like. (there's plenty of training and documentation about counterfiet money, though)

I definitly agree with you that the border is not the problem.

[Zhade]

83. I hate that term. "Illegals". It's so racist and dehumanizing.

I think that's probably why the rightwingers started using it in the first place.

I'm all for reasonable border patrol, but I find that term to be just as offensive as some of the more famous ethnic slurs that allow people to think of others as somehow less than human.

[Robert Oak]

115. uh, people here in the US illegally are "illegals".

It's an accurate term.

Of all the repuke propaganda this one is not a problem.

Try "global sourcing" to describe firing Americans and shipping their jobs overseas for cheap slave labor.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

104. How? (nt)

[VegasWolf]

11. Rocks bring down US copter! Brain making friends everywhere. nt

[meganmonkey]

13. Wow - is this a new precedent?

I've never heard of things like this happening before.

That's scary stuff.

[VegasWolf]

15. Bush to outlaw rocks in the desert. nt

[Megahurtz]

26. Lol! n/t

[speedingbullet]

42. From My Cold Dead Hands

Better call the National Rock Association. When rocks are outlawed only outlaws will have rocks.

[Just Me]

16. Okay. I say this is a wee bit exaggerated.

Well, no, it's WAY exaggerated. For crying out loud! :eyes:

[delen]

17. WTF

What altitude was the 'copter flying at? Sounds like it was landing anyway? Or they're breeding some pretty Herculean types down in Mexico.
Oh-oh invasion of the brown giants.

[anotherdrew]

18. anyone can walk though this border it seems...

Why the hell haven't terorist come across and done something? Why? It just doesn't make sense to me. Maybe too few terrorists speak spanish?

[Porcupine]

40. The "terrarists" attacking 'Merica is a fiction...

meant to scare us into compliance. Potential terrorists have access and the ability to make bombs from the stuff at any Wal Mart. We'll even give them jobs while they're here if they're willing to clean hotel rooms.

So where are they? Why hasn't there been ONE SINGLE ATTACK?

We've been had.

[anotherdrew]

68. ah yep. looks that way to me too

[anotherdrew]

20. care to imagine what would have happened if they landed near the throwers?

and lots of other agents hadn't been nearby. It's getting very weird down there.

[msongs]

22. new US policy: free birth control pills and condoms for everyone

who wants them, no questions asked.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[PassingFair]

23. Why do you hate America?

:)

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[burrowowl]

27. Depending on how far away the

copter was, they should have rounded them up for major league baseball!

[nomatrix]

30. Not funny

"The helicopter pilot was responding to a call for help from agents on the ground on Tuesday evening when about 10 people on the south bank of the canal began hurling large rocks at the aircraft."

The article went on to say, this was about smugglers. Human trafficking. Is that O.K. with you guys? Slave labor? Forced prostitution? Drug peddlers?


Generally when a thread comes up about the border with Mexico, it is always confronted with "those poor people are just looking to feed their families, and to do work americans won't do." Some of that is true.


We all have roots somewhere else. It doesn't mean I'm going to cheer them on when they are committing crimes getting into the U.S. because I'm from the same ethnicity. You want to help someone from your country of origin there's nothing wrong with doing it the legal way. Sponsor them. Feed and house them. Help them find a job. Teach them the laws. Get them medical attention for shot requirements. This free- for-all open borders hurts all of us.

Rock throwing is going to get innocent people killed.

[Robeson]

32. Legalizing drugs would end your smuggling concerns....

...and there would be one less helicopter knocked out of commission.

[nomatrix]

33. Read much?

"We believe these 10 subjects were involved in alien smuggling,"

Legalizing Meth, Cocaine, Heroin? Don't think so.

[Robeson]

34. Oh, probably in excess of 10,000 books in my 41 years. What about you?

[mknmehappy]

65. Book Smart huh?

Any real life experiences.

[VegasWolf]

70. You mean besides drinking beer? nt

[Robeson]

71. LOL!...

...:beer:

[Robeson]

73. No, no real life life experiences here....

...I'm a cybernetic computer...:eyes:

[High Plains]

105. Well, if a US government official says it, it must be true, right?

[mknmehappy]

64. Terrific answer........NOT!!

[meganmonkey]

72. Wow - and yours is very well-reasoned and intelligent

I am not defending the person you were replying to. I would, however, like to point out that if you are going to belittle someone's comments, you might be better off doing it with a reasonable argument than by three-word sarcasm. Otherwise your reply is as much of a "Terrific answer........NOT" as their post.

See what I mean?

[Robeson]

75. ...

...:boring:

[Zhade]

91. What a resounding refutation of the other's post!

No, wait, I meant to say "what refutation"?

"The sky is blue." "Is not!"

:rofl:

[Daphne08]

108. I have to agree with you.

Yes, this is hurting ALL of us, and I don't understand why people cannot see that!

Democrats are supposed to stand up for the rights of workers!

[DrBloodmoney]

39. MLB recruiters are going to be heading down there today...

...gonna get them some good pitchers

[rigel434]

44. We're neglecting our base.

What I want to know is how the Democratic Party decided to abandon the labor unions and the blue collar American worker in favor of foreign workers. I don't recall voting for that.

It seems like in our zeal to pander to Hispanic swing voters, we're neglecting our own base. It's the Republican fatcat corporations that are piling up the money from cheap foreign labor. That's the primary economic effect of cheap foreign labor- it trasfers wealth from labor to capital.

Meanwhile my brother in law, who is in construction, is finding it ever harder to support his family because he can't compete with folks used to third world living standards.

[Zhade]

93. See post #58 for the solution.

It's quite elegant in its simplicity and fairness - heck, by ensuring that immigrant labor doesn't work for slave wages, not only does the tidal wave of illegal entry slow down, but those documented workers who still come over will make MORE and be able to send back more to their families.

I'm thinking that's a win-win scenario.

[zwielicht]

47. There's no such thing as a "illegal human beeing"

I wonder why so many supposedly openminded people still don't get this and buy all that antihumanist propaganda.. This is one of the core challenges of globalisation! Heartless ignorants

[rigel434]

50. So ...

So what are you saying? Are you saying we should not favor American workers over Mexican workers? I agree that it's tragic that so many of the world's countries are impoverished, but if we just keep importing their citizens to work here then living standards for blue collar workers here will inevitably become closer to those in the third world.

Good hard-working American blue collar workers should not be forced to compete with illegal immigrants who are content to live in extremely crowded living conditions and whose employers often don't have to pay for health insurance, workers' comp, etc. My brother in law used to make a pretty good living doing construction. But he can barely support his family trying to compete against day laborers with no health care benefits, social security withholdings, or workers comp benefits. I hear a mouthful about this issue from my sister all the time.

This is the greatest challenge for the American blue-collar worker today, IMO. I know your heart is in the right place for sympathizing with these illegal immigrants, but a country has to exist primarily for its own citizens. Do you see Mexico doing anything to help our citizens?

[zwielicht]

56. Sorry, but i think thats a nearly chauvinistic view

I think we should, in the long run, make the right to be free to choose where you want to live reality for everyone, not just for us "first world" humans.

Don't forget that american companies exploit many countries of origin, the administrations are mostly corrupted with dollars and euros, modern forms of colonization cause most of the circumstances under which people (a extremely small share of them!) try their luck and risk their lives by fleeing illegally.

Here in europe this has come to the point where thousands die at the borders of fortress european union every year, where thousands are jailed at camps for nothing, where lawyers get problems if they try to help people who try to immigrate, and asylum seeking people are "delivered" back right in the hands of the people chasing them.

I think this issue is a excellent tool of deception, because blue collar workers are fooled into believing the reason for their economic struggle are competing immigrants.

F*ck realpolitik when it's deadlocked in a inhuman context, we need a sustainable world NOW.

[Megahurtz]

77. I have to agree with rigel434

that this is what is really going on in the U.S.
Your point of view is from a European perpective. You have to realize that the States are not Europe,
the Blue-Collar Worker situation here is not like Europe, and if you were to get out of Austria for awhile
and live here for a few years you would see the difference.

Although you may never really feel it if you had not been born in and grew up in the States.
Let me tell you, it's a real eye opener.:wow:

[High Plains]

106. Have you ever lived outside the US?

[Megahurtz]

109. Yes, most definitely!

:7

[Zhade]

96. "...living standards...here will inevitably become...third world."

NAFTA/CAFTA will ensure that far sooner than illegal immigration, since those reprehensible anti-worker policies work toward a lower GLOBAL pay scale.

Again: prosecute those who work illegal immigrants (not "illegals", I loathe that term) at slave wages, and the problem will be lessened severely.

As far as the "what has Mexico done for us lately?" attitude, I'd suggest two things: one, we're supposed to be a nation that gives of itself because it's the right thing to do, not because we want to get something in return, and then there is the very real fact that the U.S. stole - yes, stole - huge swaths of Mexico for our southwestern states, and maybe Mexico's economy wouldn't be as fucked-up as it is had it not suffered that imperialistic land-grab.

Just sayin'.

[Robert Oak]

116. Tancredo

believe it or not, "Let's Bomb Mecca" Tancredo who just the mention of gets some DUers to froth at the mouth, this is his number one agenda
item, to severely punish the employers in order to stem the tide.

He has said "no jobs, much less illegal border hopping".

Shocking I know, but it's really a good idea and deserves to be
promoted on both sides of the political spectrum.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

103. Sorry but this argument is a cannard that has made the left a convenient

magnet for white supremacists to come pretend they are for the underdog. I am not accusing you of such, I am simply saying that illegal immigration is an almost NON EXISTANT factor in driving down wages and in unemployment.

This link supports my point. If you read it closely, immigration was about the same during Clinton as it is now but unemployment was LOW.
http://www.urban.org/Template.cfm?Section=ByTopic&NavMenuID=62&template=/TaggedContent/ViewPublication.cfm&PublicationID=9264

Net immigration has remained fairly constant between the 1990s and the post-2000 period; instead, what has changed is the rate of job growth in the U.S. economy.
During the 1990s, 13 million immigrants arrived in the United States—an average of about 1.3 million per year (Capps et al. 2004). Since 2000, that rate of immigration has remained largely unchanged (Sum et al. 2004, table 1). The total share of immigrants in the population has risen only from 11 to 12 percent during the past four years.

In contrast, the rate of net job growth in the United States has collapsed between the late 1990s and the period since 2001. Between March 1995 and March 2000, our economy generated nearly 15 million new nonfarm payroll jobs and increased employment by about 13 million.1 But, after a period of modest job growth between March 2000 and 2001 (with payroll and employment increases of about 1 million each), the economy went through a short recession followed by a relatively "jobless" recovery for three years. Between March 2001 and 2004, total employment grew by just over one-half million, while the number of nonfarm payroll jobs declined by about 1.7 million. At the same time, the U.S. population grew by about 8 million. In the past year, job growth has picked up somewhat, though the labor market remains quite weak.2

Contrary to the interpretations suggested by Camarota (2004) and Sum et al. (2004), immigration cannot possibly account for many of the labor market developments that have occurred since 2000.
In the 1990s, strong immigration coexisted with very low unemployment rates, and record-high percentages of the population were employed. Indeed, immigration helped to relieve the pressure of very tight labor markets on employers, who had difficulty finding enough native-born workers able and willing to fill the jobs they were offering. Yet the same rate of immigration today coexists with a sluggish labor market, in which an additional 5 million jobs would be needed to re-create the employment rates of the late 1990s and 2000.3

The papers by Camarota and Sum et al. clearly show that, in the aggregate, employment among new immigrants has increased while that of native-born Americans has declined since 2000. But a look at some more disaggregated data suggests a far more complex story. While new immigrant employment has been relatively concentrated in a small number of sectors (such as building and grounds maintenance, food preparation, and construction), the shifts in jobs across other sectors of the U.S. economy have been much greater.

For example, the number of payroll jobs in manufacturing declined by about 3 million between March 2000 and March 2004; new immigrant employment rose, but only by 335,000 in this sector (Sum et al. 2004). The number of payroll jobs in the public sector rose in this period by 850,000; almost none of these jobs went to new immigrants. Strong job growth has occurred in diverse services such as health care and professional services, while employment growth has slowed or declined elsewhere (such as in retail trade), in patterns almost completely unrelated to immigration.4




Your arguments have more to do with:

1: a declining job market ever since Bush was put in office.
2: Right to work laws that have driven down wages by economically hurting labor unions.

The way I see it, white males who voted in astonishing numbers for George Bush and RTW laws are FAR more responsible for the decline of wages and jobs in America.

[Robert Oak]

117. not credible study

Repeatedly the Urban institute is ignored in academic circles and for good reason, they are not credible.

In this post for example, they take Borjas study on ILLEGAL immigration and try to twist the words
to include ALL immigration and then attempt to invalidate his results.
One cannot decide to study an aggregate, which is NOT the Borjas study to claim that his study is inaccurate.

His work is dead on accurate and he is a world leading labor economics expert.

It's absurd.

That is just as bad as some of the trade representatives claim that manufacturing jobs have increased simply because they re-classified some service jobs as manufacturing jobs.

Why people refuse to look at the facts and credible studies and use name calling is beyond my comprehension.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

121. sorry but the burden is on you to prove that point

my own personal observation is that anti-immigration groups such as your own cite the Urban Institute's figures when it is convenient to
prove your point and then discredit them when it is convenient not to. Certainly there is nothing in the Urban Institute studies (which were relied upon by your cites in the past) that demonstrates anything as extreme as Tom Tancredo's points (which you have supported in the past.)

There is no integrity apparent in picking and choosing points from numerous studies.

These figures prove that there is absolutely NO relationship between illegal immigration and unemployment among white males.

If you feel there is, the burden is on you to prove it since this study demonstrates there was NO ISSUE until George Bush slaughtered the job market with his policies.

[Robert Oak]

123. urban institute not credible

You continually spread misinformation.

For anyone else bothering to read this post, please visit our
site. We have a series of economists who have studied this issue
with highly credible and confirmed studies.

Basically illegal immigatration is costing the United States taxpayer significantly.

Legal immigration has as an aggregate a small net gain for the United States.

Nothing: I have been through this with you and am not addressing you...I am addressing anyone else who wishes to obtain the facts.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

124. No...prove WHY the Urban Institute who is cited by YOUR souces

is not credible. Sorry you can't just say an institution is not credible especially after your defense of Tom Tancredo..which of course challenges your own credibility.

[Igel]

53. But there is such a thing as an "illegal immigrant".

Just because you don't like bracketing paradoxes in word formation doesn't mean they don't exist.

"Illegal immigrant" may, on the face of it, look like it's "illegal person who immigrates", but underlying it's actually "person who immigrates illegally."

And 'illegal immigrant' can nicely be truncated to 'illegal.'

And it still doesn't mean 'illegal human being', much less 'illegal human beeing' (although I would consider anybody who willfully bees a human to be doing so illegally).

[zwielicht]

57. methinks its degrading.

and i know, my english sucks =P

[Igel]

125. Immigrating illegally?

Or saying that people that don't immigrate legally are doing so illegally?

But if you want to interpret something like 'illegal immigrant' as an insult, it's a free country. I was just pointing out that you had no substantive basis for your interpretation. There were those who groundlessly believed 'niggardly' to be a racist term, after all.

I consider 'anglo' to be offensive; at least I have grounds for that.

[Zhade]

95. THANK you.

It is, IMNSHO, a very racist term - just as dehumanizing as the n-word and other dehumanizing terms for groups of human beings.

[Igel]

54. And, of course, the Mexican government does nothing.

They don't want to infringe on their citizens' rights.

Just what *would* Mexico do with all the Mexicans if they went home?

[barb162]

61. They'd have to make bigtime infrastructure changes and a few

other things, like start educating their own, etc. I understand Mexico gets almost as much in $$$$ from the illegals working in the US as it gets in its oil revenue. The government there wants to see the situation continue.

[High Plains]

69. Uh, they have schools in Mexico

They also have superhighways and lots of other infrastructural goodies. I'd say the problem is not the infrastructure, but the political superstructure built on the existing class structure.

The emigration of Mexicans north to work at (by their standards) good-paying jobs has allowed successive governments there to ignore job creation. Oddly, Mexico's rich and powerful behave in a similar fashion to America's rich and powerful--grab what you can and fuck the guy beneath you.

If, in some miraculous manner, we could deport every illegal Mexican back home, the pressure cooker would probably explode. Emigration is a safety valve for the Mexican government.

If you think the border is an interesting place now, wait until Mexico is in throes of a full-blown revolution.

[Zhade]

98. I hear they even have the telephone and indoor plumbing!

Sheesh, the condescending views of Mexicans here are really troubling at times.

[barb162]

110. If

10,000,000+ people were deported back to Mexico, Ecuador, etc., I 'd say they'd have to build plenty of schools. That would be really hard if they weren't getting the money coming from the US. The rich over there would actually have to start sharing? (sort of like the problem we have going here)

[slackmaster]

62. Great PR move for illegal aliens

US citizens will surely open their arms to welcome more of them into our country.

:dunce:

[dejaboutique]

74. Isn't this an act of war?

I thought foreingers attacking our government workers is an act of war? Is this how they thank us for allowing them to cross our borders illegally? Shouldn't bite the hand that feeds.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JoFerret]

90. Is this what Dick meant by ""last throes""?

.

[ahimsa]

107. LOL - good one!

:rofl:

[Robert Oak]

114. wow, well now you know why

Democratic governors are declaring a state of emergency.

I mean think about how many rocks and throwers are needed to actually down a copter. That's pretty amazing.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

122. I thought your issues were labor issues.

DO you have any positive thoughts concerneing Latin Americans? If so, I've not witnessed nor read any.

This particular incident seems to be removed from the labor incidents with which you seem to be concerned. So what does "now you know why" mean?

[Moderator]

126. Lock

No longer breaking news. Circular arguments going nowhere.