Venezuela curbs missionaries after Robertson spat

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/swissinfo.html?siteSect=143&sid=6040917&cKey=1125099314000

CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters) - Venezuela's government has temporarily suspended permits for foreign missionaries after a U.S. evangelist said Washington should assassinate President Hugo Chavez.

The policy announcement came four days after conservative evangelist Pat Robertson said Washington should execute Chavez, a former soldier who often accuses the United States of plotting to kill him.

The chief of the Justice Ministry's religious affairs unit, Carlos Gonzalez, said on Friday authorisation of good office permits for missionaries would be curbed while the government tightened regulations on preachers inside Venezuela.

The permits "are suspended for a short time, it could be three or four weeks, while we organise a system to see what additional data we need for people coming into the country to preach," Gonzalez told Reuters.

[VegasWolf]

1. I would say that is an intelligent reaction to the zealot Robertson and

his low life minion's threats.

[MADem]

46. Yep, who knows which so-called preachers are there for more nefarious

purposes? Cannot be too careful...

[forintegrity]

2. Perhaps these evangelizers can go to DC

I hear there's lots of evangelizing that needs to be done there. or maybe Pat might want em to go to Iraq where they can steal lots of money for him and never be held accountable.

[VegasWolf]

3. or Iraq. They could use a few evalgelists there. nt

[Southpaw Bookworm]

11. No thank you

DC residents have enough issues without having to deal with evangelists full time. (Though, preacher-baiting might be a fun sport.)

[Orrin_73]

4. I dont blame the Venezualans,

they will see every missionary as a potential assassin.

[MetaTrope]

5. And who exactly are these evangelical missionaries trying to convert?

Catholics, isn't it?

[Orrin_73]

6. Christians converting Christians

[VegasWolf]

13. the large Jaguars? nt

[Cha]

18. That's what I question.

Just who needs converting?

[Tin Man]

52. The primary objective of truly Christian NGOs

is relief work and providing assistance to the poor. Conversions may come in turn, but it's not the primary objective of their mission.

In this respect, the ramifications of Pat Robertson's stupid remarks are very sad indeed.

[anitar1]

65. I will never believe that conversion is not their mission.

They do not go there to just do good deeds. They go to convert people because they believe their way is the only way. Chavez should kick all of them out of the country, IMHO.

[JDPriestly]

35. MetaTrope

You hit the nail on the head. The fundamentalists interpret the Biblical admonition to be fishers of men as an instruction to go fishing for other Christian souls. Even in the '60s, Mormon missionaries went to primarily Catholic European countries to try to get converts to Mormonism. The fundamentalists started doing the same thing in the early '80s. I saw it in person.

[belle]

43. otoh, it's kind of poetic justice, historically speaking, since

it only became Catholic through heavy Catholic evangelization in the first place.

not that it makes these people any more appropriate or less annoying.

[barb162]

44. well you know those Catholics (bwa)

I think certain sects consider Catholics are not going to heaven because they don't baptize as adults or something or other....

[PurityOfEssence]

7. Oooh, now he hates Jesus; we can destroy him with impunity

For all his faults, Chavez is a man of the people and someone who wanted to give his countrymen a break. Corporate America hates him for this, and have run two coups and a bogus recall election against him as he extends literacy to his people and tries to do the right thing.

We've slagged him and his country for being a conduit for child sex slavery (boy, if that doesn't get a fundamentalist Christian foaming at the mouth, nothing will) and drug exportation. We've done so many things to try to destroy him and reinstall the oligarchs that one's head spins just to think of them.

Hitler used the "they hate god" angle against communists and socialists very well; he really believed in this. Our current movers and shakers are cut from the same field-grey cloth.

So sad for Junior: Clinton didn't leave him with a military designed for world conquest.

[peacetalksforall]

8. I think he is very smart. His precaution is quite rational .I say he is

acting with more prudence that our regime has exercised.

Very smart guy.

I hope the little people who support him prosper in every way. I hope he is what he seems to be so far. Someone who is not doing it the same old way - i.e., taking orders from the U.S. and raking in the payola from the U.S. for personal acquisition and selling out the little people.

[anotherdrew]

9. send the missionaries to minister to BTK - he needs a touch up I think

[Old Vet]

10. They have every right in the world to throw them out...

I would, The world is getting tired of *s shit.

[tsuki]

12. Kinda like what Blair is doing. Blair get kudoos. What do you

think President Chavez will get?

[AlamoDemoc]

14. A quick reaction and appropriate one indeed

[goforit]

15. LOL!!!......Christians who support murder!!...ADIOS!!!

[Soup Bean]

16. Did Chavez PAY Robertson to say that crazy stuff?

He couldn't WISH for better advertising.....or a better safety mechanism...Robertson just gave his car an air bag...or a "gas bag" if you will

[Cha]

19. I agree...pat really stepped into

this time..the gift that keeps on giving!

[Cha]

17. Damn Straight...Make patwah

accountable. The missionaries can take it up with the patwah.

[Igel]

20. Does Robertson's organization even have a missionary branch?

Or is it a nice case of a pretext: Hate the suckers, and take advantage of people's ignorance--or maybe one's own--for an excuse to get rid of them?

Not all venezolanos are Catholic; most are in more developed areas, at least nominally.

[scarletwoman]

22. They don't need a missionary branch, they have a global TV program.

There's another recent post about how the only Christian TV channel in Finland(!) has decided to drop the 700 Club because of Robertson's assassination remarks. There's also a post about some African Christian organization condemning Robertson.

The 700 Club's reach is global -- that's their "missionary branch".

sw

[Igel]

41. So, in other words, Chavez is targetting none of the people that

work with/for Robertson, who actually issued the threat. In other words, he's barring people that may be guilty of something, but not what he's claiming he's banning them for. Ah. I see.

Thanks for clarifying that.

[K-W]

42. Christian Cleric Issues Fatwa

Is it a little clearer now?

[Igel]

62. Apply the same logic to

"Muslim cleric issues fatwa."

Does the logic seem as respectable?

[belle]

47. I have to say it: barring missionaries (not "persecuting," mind you)

...feels understandable to me. At least that is, if they mean foreign missionaries on a visa of some sort-- not talking about Venezuelan citizens who practice evangelical Christianity, obviously. I hate the whole concept of missionaries--so patronizing, at best. Tend the beam in your own damn eye, and leave other people/countries the hell alone.

[scarletwoman]

51. "...leave other people/countries the hell alone." I'm totally with you!

I detest the whole missionary mindset -- that a peoples' own spiritual traditions supposedly need "correction". It's just another form of imperialism.

sw

[anitar1]

66. Thank you--it sucks. How dare people go to to other countries

to spread their brand of malignancy?It is simply to undermine that countries government--pure and simple, IMO. They should all be barred from doing it.Let them work in their own country. All of these "charity's" are a scam, for the most part.When evangelists are hugely wealthy, it is time to ask, how did they amass the wealth?

[Igel]

63. In which case, he should say he's doing it because he

objects to others' propagandizing a faith.

The government's allowed to bar people from entering for any reason. But I believe that in the interest of transparency, the government should clearly state the reason, and the reason should be accurate.

And I don't believe I used the word 'persecute'. Simply not allowing people in is hardly persecution.

[scarletwoman]

49. He's barring people who work from the same sort of agenda.

Personally, I think ALL missionaries should be banned EVERYWHERE, but especially evangelicals.

Why should Chavez allow people into his country who promote a destructive and dysfunctional belief system? Read the link in my post #25 on this thread.

sw

[NYC]

21. Robertson is comparing himself to Bonhoeffer.

For those who didn't get a reply from Pat Hitman Robertson. From the end of a long-winded email:

The brilliant Protestant theologian, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who lived
under the hellish conditions of Nazi Germany, is reported to have said:

"If I see a madman driving a car into a group of innocent bystanders,
then I can't, as a Christian, simply wait for the catastrophe and then
comfort the wounded and bury the dead. I must try to wrestle the
steering wheel out of the hands of the driver."

On the strength of this reasoning, Bonhoeffer decided to lend his
support to those in Germany who had joined together in an attempt to
assassinate Adolf Hitler. Bonhoeffer was imprisoned and killed by the Nazis, but his example deserves our respect and consideration today.

There are many who disagree with my comments, and I respect their
opinions. There are others who think that stopping a dictator is the
appropriate course of action. In any event, the incredible publicity
surrounding my remarks has focused our government's attention on a growing problem which has been largely ignored.

[cliss]

23. So Liarson feels he is truly a "Patron Saint" like

Bonhoeffer. Now this story says that Bonhoeffer was killed. I wonder, is Robberson willing to do that? Sacrifice his own life, just to have Chavez assassinated?

Also, was Bonhoeffer a billionaire like Blabberson is? Did he own diamond mines in Africa, own race horses, and have good buddies from Africa who are dictators and murderers?

WELL, PAT?

[icymist]

31. Don't forget being on the Board of The Bank of Scotland. n/t

[coda]

29. Heh

" In any event, the incredible publicity surrounding my remarks has focused our government's attention on a growing problem which has been largely ignored. "

His terroristic threats?

[burrowowl]

32. Pat Robinson

comparing himself to Bonhoeffer!
What shameless unmitigated gall!
Pat Robinson who schemed for gold with Libera's crooked presidnet!

[54anickel]

39. Sheesh, Pat must surely have a long "hit list" then...

...stopping a dictator is the appropriate course of action.

[belle]

48. Yes, Pat, i agree that stopping power-mad authoritarians is a good idea

Which is why I'm in favor of finally kicking your egomaniac ass off the airwaves.

[daleo]

24. Chavez should let them back in

Once they publicly declare to obey the teachings of Jesus Christ - and that means no killing. Perhaps they could publicly repeat the ten commandments, like a Christian loyalty oath.

[scarletwoman]

25. Excellent! This is great!

Evangelicals are bad news for Latin America no matter what -- the less of them the better.

Here's a great read about the religious dynamics in S.A.:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/russell-shaw/whats-really-bo_b_6209.html

<snip>

But there are larger forces at play here than the disdain that one very conservative North American has for one quite leftist Third World leader.

This has to do with the religious dynamics in force in most Latin American countries. Sure, oil is involved in Venezuela. This latest dispute, though, is just an extension of what has been going on for decades in oil-less Nicaragua, El Salvador, and Guatemala-where clashing religious visions have raged for decades.

In most of these nations, there are three major religious factions jousting for loyalty and fervor:

Traditional Catholicism- the faith of most of the financial, military and political elite, and, in some circles, an advocate for either the status quo or slow change.

Catholic Liberation Theology- the movement that relates what it sees as the revolutionary roots of Jesus' message to the class struggles of the present day, and has often expressed commonality with leftist Latin American figures;

Evangelical Protestantism- the movement that focuses more on born-again fealty, adherence to moral values and rejection of "Godless Communism" as the best path.

Now, think back to the Nicaragua of the 1980s. The Sandinistas often worked in conjunction with Liberation theologians. The Evangelical Protestants were closest in creed to the Contras, right-wingers who opposed Daniel Ortega in a similar manner to the type of opponents Chavez draws today.

And do you remember who was on the side of the Contras? Evangelical, anti-Communist fanatics such as Oliver North. And, much of the Reagan Administration.

(more...)

sw

[Gman]

26. Oh, that's just great

now the fundies will complain that they're being persecuted like in the Bible. Of course, they want to be persecuted. It gives them something to bitch about.

[mitchum]

28. But the fundies have set the bar for being a christian martyr very low!

Shouldn't these bible-thumping whiners be flayed alive or beheaded or something?

[Gman]

59. They should at least be consumed by large, untamed felines

or some other large human eating species. Crocodiles would work fine too.

[WhiteTara]

27. he should ban them for all time

the spreading of Christianity has been the scrouge of the world.

[klyon]

36. yes ban them permanently

and all Christians from walking up to my door and asking if I am saved. I don't take kindly to such rude disrespect of any belief I do have. The Mormons sending their kids is the worst.

KL

[WhiteTara]

56. thank the goddess that I live in the country

and am spared that nasty interuption in my day.

[malaise]

50. Exactly

Further with the exception of the 19th century dissenting sects and liberation theologists, as well as progressives from the World Council of Churches Movement in the 1970s, they have all sided with the right wing and against the interests of the ordinary people. Many progressive ministers from traditional churches were murdered in this region for siding with the ordinary people.

Ban all of them let freedom reign
<edit - sp and add to sentence>

[WhiteTara]

55. christianity masks the devil

in pious clothing. But all the holy water in the world can't keep their slavering evil from showing through.

[scarletwoman]

30. time for a kick... (n/t)

[Robeson]

33. I'll kick it with you.

[ngGale]

34. Makes sense to me ...

"fundie" protection.

[malaise]

37. The entire world should ban them

Disruptive robbers in sheep's clothing. Benny Hinn, Pat Robertson, Swaggart (where is he these days?). Great move Chavez - I hope others ban his programme and revoke all visas. Christianity is imperialism's best friend.

[tabasco]

38. Benny Hinn ! LMAO !

I simply cannot comprehend how anybody can take these charlatans seriously. :shrug:

[splat@14]

40. Sounds reasonable. Assassins would arrive under some sort of cover.

[TankLV]

45. That would be the only prudent thing to do.

Can anybody blame him?

Now I wonder how long before patsy boy is yanked from OUR airwaves and thrown in prison for illegal behavior?

[cyr330]

53. Let em have it

All the fundy crazies are republican anyway-anti-gay, anti-everything. Kick their ugly asses out of the country for good. . . .

[IndianaGreen]

54. The white man's religion is poison!

Look at how the white man's religion has been used in this country to subjugate the African slaves, the native Hawaiians, and their descendants.

Look at how the Catholic Church as sided against the poor, the workers, and the peasants in Latin American and in Venezuela in particular, and in the Philippines. The Church loves the poor, but they don't want the poor to take power and topple the wealthy elites. The Church is part of the ruling class!

[Zorra]

57. Robertson is the perfect example of the RW republican "christian".

And who could blame Venezuela for developing a system for weeding out these RW wolves in sheep's clothing?

[malaise]

58. They don't only come with brain washing

They take out a lot of money from poor gullible people looking for hope, miracles or visas.
Edit -sp.

[NVMojo]

60. Smart move ....keep the fundie missionaries for Bush out!

If only we could ...

[JDPriestly]

61. Rios Montt -- example of evangelicals at work in S.A. /L.A.

Here is an excerpt from a website I can't vouch for but find interesting. It is about what happened in Guatemala when evangelicals got a foothold.

IN THE NAME OF GOD
The war against indigenous culture in Guatemala.
© Andrian Kreye

The most brutal part of the conflict is the clash of religious beliefs. Fundamentalist evangelism is the governemnt's creed. The indigenous' belief in Nahual, the sacred animal, is considered superstition. The Catholic churches¹ liberation theology is prosecuted as subversive. The army monitors everything. Every move of the population is watched and controlled. All over the country one encounters the infamous civil patrols. The army organized these paramiltary vigilante groups, creating a vast network of informers and enforcers.

. . . .

"What are you fighting for?", I asked. "We fight for the people, for peace and for God." said a farmer dressed in rubber boots and an old windbreaker. Every member of the patrol seemed to be evangelical Christian, reciting pseudo- biblical rethoric. "We fight the guerrillas who want to take away our faith", another one said. The most basic form of American evangelical demagoguery.

. . . .

It was in March of 1982 when General Efrain Rios Montt took power. While he only held the office of president until the August of 1983, his crusade against the guerillas took on genocidal proportions. Even thorughout this period he remained a preacher of the Iglésia Evangelica El Verbo, the Guatemalan mission of the evangelical network Gospel Outreach in California.

. . . .

Today there are over two million evangelical Christians in Guatemala, a whole 35 percent of the population. 10,500 churches are spread throughout the country. The Church of God alone has been planting a new church every five days for the past fifteen years. When former US presidential candidate and TV evangelist Pat Robertson broadcast in Guatemala, 60 percent of all TV owning households watched, surpassing even the record breaking Soccer World Cup.

http://www.andriankreye.com/guatee.html


Rios Montt is the head of Guatemala, elected in a controversial 1994 election. Have no idea how reliable this site, Third World Traveler, is either.

In 1982, when Rios Montt headed the military junta that overthrew Gen. Romeo Lucas Garcia-and when Montt also became a pastor of the Word fundamentalist church-he "demonstrated a very complicated personality," writes Hector Rosada, a military analyst. "A combination of a disappointed presidential candidate , a Protestant pastor, and a military man determined to win the war against the guerrillas. This combination took on the form of a messianic personality."

Rios Montt is now the president of the National Congress, the permanent leader of the political party he created, and he wields powerful influence over political life. His daughter Zury Rios is the congressional vice president, and his second son, Enrique Rios Sosa, is head of finances for the army. As in days gone by, the general maintains ironclad control over legislators from his party in Congress and over legislative activities. He's revived the moralistic speeches common during his regime in the 1980s.
. . . .

Perhaps the most extraordinary thing about General Efrain Rios Montt is his brother. In May 1998 Bishop Mario Rios Montt succeeded the assassinated Bishop Juan Gerardi as head of the Catholic Church's human-rights office in Guatemala. His task is to continue Gerardi's work, uncovering the truth behind the massacre or disappearance of upwards of 200,000 people during the prolonged and continuing 'civil war'- more accurately described as attempted genocide - against the indigenous Mayan majority of the Guatemalan population. The person who, in the early 19805, presided over the most vicious single episode in this genocide was none other than the Bishop's brother, the General. Efrain is also an ordained minister of the authoritarian, right-wing Gospel Outreach/Verbo evangelical church, based in California and one of several such churches that have been expanding fast
in the region, at the expense of the Catholic Church. General Rios Montt's evangelical zeal is linked to the military 'education' he received - like many of his peers in Latin America - from the School of the r Americas, run by the US military in Panama. From the 19505 onwards this notorious 'Coup School' taught its students how to contribute to US interests and the anti-Communist effort by usurping political power in Latin America by any available means, including assassination, torture and 'disappearance'. After a US-orchestrated military coup in 1954, Guatemala became a key component of US 'counter-insurgency' activity throughout Central America. So when Rios Montt grew to maturity and duly seized power in 1982 he set out to show what a good student he had been. He launched a 'Guns and Beans' offensive against Guatemala's persistent insurgents. A subsequent report commissioned by the UN found that at least 448 mostly Indian villages had been simply wiped off the map. The targeting of the Mayan peoples forced hundreds of thousands to flee to the mountains or to neighboring Mexico. Many of those who remained were corralled into 'hamlets' to produce cash crops for export.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zeroes/Efrain_Rios_Montt.html

See also
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/10934

There is lots more on the evangelical issue in S.A. and L.A. Some of it is postive, some negative. Montt is negative from what I read and hear.

[Judi Lynn]

67. Beloved of Reagan, Robertson, and Falwell.Enough to make one ill.

Hideous, bloody legacy, and still very popular with our right-wing.

[Oreegone]

64. Note to Evangelicals & other lost missionary souls...

Leave Venezuela alone, and everybody else in the world. Go to church and pray, but please leave everybody alone who does not aspire to your self imposed piety. Good, keep the freakin' missionaries out of EVERYWHERE. Go buy some "In case of rapture this car will be empty" stickers....and by the way....since when do you know you are going to heaven? It says in the Bible there is a judgement day, so where do you get off proclaiming your entrance into happyland?

[Judi Lynn]

68. Good comments from a Jamaican paper: The fear of fear itself

The fear of fear itself
Common Sense
John Maxwell
Sunday, August 28, 2005



The prophet of the Christians, Jesus Christ, got it right: "Beware of false prophets which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

When televangelist Pat Robertson a few days ago called for the murder of Venezuela's President Chavez there was a huge outburst of outrage, a kind of emotional fireworks display in response to the ever more predictable lunacies of the so-called Christian Right.

My father, who was a Baptist parson, would never, I think, have described Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and the rest of the millionaire god-bothering sheep-stealers as Christians.

Those of us who do regard them as Christians forget that Falwell and Robertson, two days after September 11, 2001 said that the atrocity was God's punishment of the United States - probably deserved because of the anti-American activities of a variety of miscreants - gays, lesbians, advocates of civil liberties and other people bent on secularising America.
(snip/...)

http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/columns/html/20050827T190000-0500_87024_OBS_THE_FEAR_OF_FEAR_ITSELF.asp

[divineorder]

69. The Great Commission is Over

Now it's just meddling like in Iraq. Local Christians with churches older than these fundie denominations founders have to suffer the suspicion because of those denominations. Iraq Christians have had to flee.

[Chovexani]

70. Smart move

I don't blame them.