Militants, swept from battleground, return when troops leave, U.S. says

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/12498568.htm

AR-RAMADI, Iraq -- Iraq's insurgency has concentrated much of its fight against U.S. and Iraqi forces in towns along the murky waters of the Euphrates River, beginning with Al-Qaim on the Syrian border and running through towns such as Al-Hadithah, Al-Haqlaniyah, Hit, Ar-Ramadi and Al-Fallujah. They're all in Al-Anbar province, the heartland of Iraq's Sunni Muslim minority, which dominated the government under Saddam Hussein.

In the cities where U.S. forces have set up bases -- such as Ar-Ramadi and Al-Fallujah -- the fighting has destroyed much of the infrastructure but failed to completely secure the areas. In smaller towns, American forces launch repeated raids to clear the streets of insurgents, only to see them return as soon as the Marines and soldiers are gone.

Three weeks of reporting alongside American troops in Al-Anbar's main centers of guerrilla resistance found that U.S. forces are failing to make headway, and some commanders fear that much of the military effort is wasted.

``It doesn't do much good to push them out of these areas only to let them go back to areas we've already cleared,'' said Lt. Col. Tim Mundy, who commands the 3rd Battalion of the 2nd Marine Regiment. Mundy, 40, of Waynesville, N.C., whose battalion is based in Al-Qaim, added: ``We're successful at taking some of his equipment and killing some insurgents, but the effectiveness is limited because we can't stay. . . . We go back to camp and then we get reports that they've come back in.''

[JohnyCanuck]

1. Almost sounds like the Lt Col. never took Guerrilla Warfare 101

`We're successful at taking some of his equipment and killing some insurgents, but the effectiveness is limited because we can't stay. . . . We go back to camp and then we get reports that they've come back in.''

[bluedeminredstate]

3. What he'll be taking is an early retirement.

How dare he give a truthful assessment? Why does he hate America? Doesn't he know about all the schools we've built dammit?
That said, it seems he remembers well the choppers leaving the Embassy rooftop...

:eyes:

[MADem]

16. Christ on a bicycle, that's VIETNAM 101

We've cleared the village of Cong...the village is pacified.

Ooooops, gotta go pacify that village again!

Fucking IDIOTS!!!!!

[rosesaylavee]

2. Has anyone ever won

a guerilla war other than the guerillas?

Time to think outside the box on this one or get out of Dodge.

[DavidDvorkin]

9. Yes.

E.g., the Boer War. But it takes a huge commitment by the occupying power, far greater than what the U.S. has been willing to commit in this guerilla war.

[pinerow]

11. Didn't the Boer's (Afrikaaners?) end up with South Africa after all...?

nt

[The_Casual_Observer]

20. Of course they did. GB really ended up with nothing in the end.

The whole enterprise was fruitless.

[DavidDvorkin]

23. Yes and no (and no and yes and . . .)

The Boers lost the war. After a while (I can't remember how many years it took), the British and the locals came up with a plan for a federal system, the Union of South Africa, which became a Dominion (same status as Canada, Australia, and New Zealand). It included the former Boer republics, but all (white) people had equal rights and a vote in the new country. So the Boers lost, but in the end the British were fairly magnanimous.

Then in the 1948 election, the National Party, which was really the Afrikaner party, won the election, imposed the Apartheid system, and in general set about remaking the country as culturally an Afrikaner stronghold. In that sense, they won, but they had to wait for many years and do it through the parliamentary system.

And of course all of that collapsed, anyway, so the Afrikaners lost again, in the end.

[Toots]

12. America did and I believe you could say the Vietnamese did as well

Though neither could really be considered just a guerilla war. Both wars were with Conventional armies as well as guerilla warfare. On edit I misread your post. How about the American Indian. I doubt you could classify them as winners.

[NuttyFluffers]

21. I'd classify Native Americans as more victims of apocalyptic disease.

like having several bouts of The Black Plague on steroids for 500 years (it took about that long to get from east coast to west coast). catastrophic plagues are around 10% population mortality, the black plague was hovering around 25% (hence considered apocalyptic), and poor native americans were fighting diseases (note the plural!) that were regularly doing 30%-80% mortality -- which is beyond human comprehension anyway you look at it. there's a reason there were only 20,000 native americans left at around the turn of the century. no civilization can survive that and still fight a guerrilla war.

besides, such guerrilla costs to empire is rarely worth it. long term there's very little won. so much effort, for so long, for in the end so little... basically the definition of a pointless effort.

[bemildred]

13. It happens.

It requires either a huge cultural/technological advantage, or as the other fellow says, a huge commitment of force and the economic engine to back it up.

Edit: and even so, as the other other fellow says, unless you resort to genocide you are just buying some time.

[Johnyawl]

17. yes

Read Robert Asprey's book "War In The Shadows". He chronicles guerilla war through out history, and examines what worked, and what didn't, and then details the war in Vietnam, and why we were ultimately ineffective. His book was banned from the US military acadamies, and ignored by the US military for 20 years. Finally in the late '80s they started studying this book. Obviously it should have been required reading by Rumsfeld and his staff, as we are doing every thing in Iraq that Asprey warns us not to do.

Those who will not study history, are doomed to repeat it.

[NNN0LHI]

4. Clue for Lt. Mundy. The "insurgents" you speak of live there

Where else are they going to go?

Don

[saigon68]

6. ITS IRAQ-NAM-- SAME TACTICS--- DIFFERENT LOCATION

No jungle here but then they (The Resistance) don't need one.

Look at Algeria in 1959-1963 against the French for the Precedent.


The idiots--- You don't stomp into a country kill a lot of women and children and expect the "LOCALS" to love you.

Especially when you bring thousands of Christian fundamentalists to "CONVERT THE POPULATION TO JESUS"

This is a QUAGMIRE

[Johnyawl]

15. That was my first thought...

...didn't we learn a god damned thing from Vietnam??!! This was exactly the tactic we used in Vietnam - sweep into an area, kick ass, clear out the guerillas, and leave. Come back in 3 months and do the same damned thing. It's stupid, ineffective, tactics like this, constantly repeated, that destroys the morale of the troops.

[Hardrada]

18. No one has read Mao Tse-Tung either

where he says the people's army retreats when the enemy is strong but returns when the enemy is weak or absent. I think it's in the Little Red Book. Doesn't anyone in authority ever read any history or strategy. In fact this is what the Russian partisans were doing to Napoleon's Grand Army in 1812!!!

[NuttyFluffers]

22. i'm sure you can just quote Sun Tsu's "The Art of War"

basic strategy as defender against larger force; bend in the wind like a reed in a storm and outlast.

[Roland99]

5. They're returning in their last throes with broken backs cuz we're winning

So, is Iraq turning into one, big Beirut?

[teryang]

7. Duh! n/t

[coffeenap]

10. That's what I was gonna say! Kids do this when throwing snowballs-

Where are the brains of our country???????? Oh yeah, I forgot, it isn't cool to be smart.Someone might think you are a progressive! ;-)

[Ilsa]

8. So this is how Bush* honors the sacrifices of those fallen during those

initial raids on areas of insurgency: underfund the troop levels so the insurgents return and those deaths are in vain. Way to plan a war, DimSon.

[bribri16]

14. Hey, did we forget that they live there?! n/t

[damntexdem]

19. Uh, you know, that just possibly might be an indication that ...

the American "strategy" isn't working.

Think of how the troops feel: risk their lives, maybe have some buddies killed, then they pull out and hear that the insurgents are back.

[Hekate]

24. What-ho -- Vietnam with sand!

Whoda thunk?

Hekate

#Why won't the Chickenhawk cross the road?#