McCain disputes Iraq-Vietnam comparison

[NNN0LHI]

http://news.webindia123.com/news/showdetails.asp?id=111068&cat=World

U.S. Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., disputed the notion that the Iraq war is a replay of Vietnam, contrasting comments last week by Sen. Chuck Hagel, R-Neb.

On CBS' Face The Nation Sunday, McCain -- who called Hagel one of his dearest friends -- said the lack of a legitimate government in Saigon prevented the people from getting behind a concrete movement there. Also, McCain stressed that leaving Vietnam did not pose the same long-term danger as he said a premature exit from Iraq would. snip

McCain reiterated his call for more troops on the ground in Iraq, especially Special Forces, linguists and civil affairs personnel to help stabilize the country.

[VegasWolf]

1. You see... one has trees and one has rocks! nt

[saigon68]

41. Like CHALABI is a "Legitimate Government" Yawn

Sarcasm. John McCain is a shill for the NEOCON Exploiters

[marylanddem]

2. McCain has no credibility

and I wish they would stop trotting him out as some kind of resident statesman.

[I concur]

35. no credibility?

...nearly seven years in the Hanoi Hilton, and he has no credibility? Au contraire' mon ami, he has vast expertise on the Vietnam experience. And, IMHO, he is right. What he is saying is Bush blew it when:
1. Not enough troops to do the job in the first place (because Rove advised he would need the draft).
2. Poor planning for training Iraqis.
3. Tax cuts in the middle of a war.
He also was right in saying comparison to Vietnam is skewed because in Vietnam we were supporting a corrupt government and there were "superpower" contingencies to consider, plus there were protected sanctuaries such as Laos, Cambodia, and certain spots on the Ho Chi Mihn trail.

[progressivebydesign]

36. I appreciate McCain's service, and his sacrifice being held for so long..

but being a POW makes you an expert on being a POW, totally, but does not automatically make you an expert on the war. It does not make him an expert on the war or the policy. He is entitled to his opinion, naturally. But there are others with far more experience in the workings of the wars that could give a more balanced perspective.

[Jack from Charlotte]

68. I agree. Was he ever actually in South VN?

During the war? And also, I'm not denigrating his sacrifice. Far from it, unlike those Repugs..... but McCain was a Navy Aviator. He flew off a carrier, I think and was in a prison in North VN without even reading the paper re that war. One would think he'd have less info on the war in VN than most.

[saigon68]

43. He has credibility on Prisons He should be checking On Abu Ghraib

Iraq-Nam has NO LEGITIMATE GOVERNMENT EITHER

[I concur]

44. Beg your pardon, but...

...respectfully disagree. Except for the absolutely incompetent leadership shown (LBJ, Nixon, and Bush), Iraq and Vietnam have absolutely nothing in common. I ought to know, I was there (Da Nang '67).
I.e.: Where are the sanctuaries that the NVA had? Where is the Big Minh or Ngo Dinh Diem and Nguyen Cao Ky military junta governments; where is the corrupt counterpart of Nguyen Van Thieu; where is NVA General Giap's counterpart ( w/the possible exception of comparing Ho Chi Minh with OBK there is no comparison with Giap to anyone Iraq has, Al-zarkawri included).
It was my experience that the Vietnamese loved Americans but hated America's unbending support for a government they knew to be corrupt and vile. I could see your argument, say if we were supporting Saddam against the insurgency...but I really think most Iraqis believe they are better building some sort of Islamic regime than they would have been had we not invaded their country.

[wickerwoman]

49. I don't see it.

I just can't imagine all those educated formerly middle class professional Iraqi women crossing their fingers for an Islamic regime. Maybe burqa salesmen think they're building a better government but I doubt most people in Iraq think exchanging a secular tyranny for a theocratic one is much of an improvement. Do you really think the US is going to support a truly democratically elected government in Iraq? The kind that would kick Halliburton out on it's ass? I don't see it. Whoever is elected will be perceived and hated as a US puppet. How many Iraqi politicians were assassinated before we got to the current lot?

And no interested superpowers? Is it coincidence that the insurgents always see to be using Russian-made weapons? Do you really think the Russians and Chinese have no interest in what goes on in Iraq?

I suspect that this discussion is likely to go the way of the Bush=Hitler threads, so I'll just say that no analogy is perfect. By definition you are finding similarities between two fundamentally unlike things. Of course there isn't a 1 to 1 correspondance. This is life, not allegory. But I think there are enough points of comparison to justify the analogy.

[I concur]

55. Well, I never believed and Islamic Pakistan...

...would elect a woman prime minister either but it did. I do not believe that an Iraqi Islamic regime will necessarily result in women wearing burquas; I suspect it will be more liberal in treatment of women (somewhat less than Lebanon was in the 1970s but way more than modern day Saudi Arabia).
We're drifting, however, as the subject is about a Vietnam/Iraq comparison where, IMHO, none exists. I truly believe that McCain is correct on what will be the outcome if we pull out without a fully established government capable of defending itself: a civil-war torn country (a la Lebanon circa 1980) and a seedbed for terrorists (a la formerly Taliban held Afghanistan) and where the scenario for women WILL be as you describe.

[PatriotMom]

50. Maybe something happened to McCain......

that has twisted his mind a little or a lot. He wants more troops on the ground in an illegal war that we should not be in in the first place....there is something wrong with that man. :mad:

[Imagevision]

64. I agree, McCain has NO credibility! none zip nada!!!

[karynnj]

70. But does Iraq have a government at all at this point

Alawi and Chalabbi ?? We bombed the hell out of Cambodia and Laos. No two wars or other circumstances are ever the same. The bigger difference is that Iraq is located in a particularly strategic place.

[liberaliraqvet26]

3. he's become a Bush whore...

they must have something on him

[karlrschneider]

4. I guess a room in the Hanoi Hilton equals a Ph.D in poly sci...

This asshole knows no more about foreign policy than I do. Fuck him.

[saigon68]

52. YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THAT

He was a child of privilege who was an unlucky fighter pilot.

He is still a child of privilege

Working for and a WHORE to the corporate interests who own and run amerika.

[The_Casual_Observer]

5. McCain disputed his connection with "Lincoln Bonds" too.

He spends all his time disputing the truth. Doesn't he ever get tired of it?

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. 
[link:www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html|Click
here] to review the message board rules.

[Autonomy]

7. Break down what he is saying:

Iraq is even more an intractable situation that Vietnam (ironic, because "long-term danger" was the SOLE reason for going into Vietnam!), and the solution is a "legitimate government".

Two major problems with that solution: Iraq has less chance of creating a stable government than Vietnam, and "his call for more (US) troops" is not consistent with his solution of creating a more stable government. It's a very 'Vietnamesque' exercise in futility.

I read this quote as tacit admittance that Iraq is comparably worse than Vietnam, and that we were all better off not invading Iraq. But we just can't help but meddle in other countries' affairs, whether they be communist or Baath, even if it hurts everyone involved.

[Inland]

12. EXACTLY! Just as I thought!

He's basically telling us we are screwed, thanks to this war of choice.

If this doesn't work, there's a world at stake. Bush has risked everything. Who the hell decided to risk the very future of our country and the world on being able to creat a stable, democratic AND friendly Iraq?

[Imagevision]

65. Question to McCain: Nam after 2 1\2 years what was the chance

then that it would go for 10 years killing over 58,000 US. troops for what Nixon ended up saying: "Peace with honor"

"Freedom's just another word for nothin else to use"

[loyalsister]

67. He disregards our experience

We may not be there, but as Americans, we are experiencing it, in a sense. The experience we are having is not unlike that of American civilians during the Vietnam war. There was uncertainty and it seemed to be unending, too many soldiers are dying, and we're not getting answers we deserve. Not to mention the fact that the country is horribly divided over this.
Obviously, there is no draft, and another thing different that is worse is it very well may have increased the chances that terrorism will be something we will face in the future.
He needs to take off his uniform and try to understand this through the eyes of the parents, friends and stateside observers.

[BlueJac]

8. McCain is insane!

Too long in the camps of Vietnam......he can't even figure out who has fuck him in this country. GW was one of the first that had a piece of the prisoner of war. Now he is a prisoner of the right wing nut cases and can't escape. Get a clue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cha]

23. mccain does seem to be

in an undeniable rut with the prisoner of war status. Vietnam and the bush evil crime family..poor sod, there's no escaping.

[against all enemies]

9. And Iraq's government is legitimate? Idiot!!

[jbane]

10. McCain knows what he's talking about. Too bad he's not with us.

He's a good American and I wish like hell he was a Democrat.

[wileycoyote]

13. McCain

McCain is a political opportunist. He says whatever he feels those who are listening want to hear. I'm a Viet Nam vet and for him to say the things he is saying is not just a matter of his having a different opinion than me. He is flat out lying and he is a traitor and I'm real glad he's a republican. He fits in perfectly with that crowd.

[jimshoes]

17. Welcome,

Thanks for your service by the way. :hi:

[callous taoboy]

20. Welcome to DU, Wiley!

[leesa]

22. Funny.

[AX10]

11. "Insane McCain" got brainwashed by the Vietcong during.....

his time with them. That's why he thinks that Iraq is not that bad.

If Vietnam wasn't bad, then Iraq can't be bad either, right Senator?

:eyes:

McCain is pure alright, PURE 100% SHIT!

[Dr Fate]

39. That is what the Bush camp called him in the 2000 S.C. primaries.

I was right over the bridge in Augusta, GA and I personaly heard it myself.

Heh- perhaps they had a point!! ;)

[AX10]

71. Yes they did.

.

[PatriotMom]

51. I agree with that completely

[Demonaut]

14. still all I ever see is that lovey dove hug he got from bush when his name

is mentioned..........uuugh!

[NVMojo]

15. the poor beaten whore ...still humping for the bastards who beat him...

[rodeodance]

16. after he let bush put his arm around him on Air Force ONe--I no longer

listen to what he says.

[pocket]

18. McCain is a whorish sack of shit

that just wants to shore up his base for 08

[Malikshah]

19. The traitor has lost any right to say crap about anything

He's betrayed his country by supporting the regime.

Why do folks like him, hate the country so much?

[RageFist]

21. Why the hating on McCain...

I take from his comments that Iraq is worser than Vietnam (No central movement, greater regional threat if we pull out). Lets not forget that without McCain, the judicial filibuster would be HISTORY.

[bushcrab]

25. Schieffer asked McCain why the increase in public protest

against the War in Iraq. McCain's answer was it's because Americans are not happy with the lack of progress being made over there, which is a crock of crap. McCain had no balls to state the obvious, that is, that Americans are protesting this war in Iraq because our misadministration of chickenhawks lied us into this war, to profit from it, and that they all need to be held accountable, NOW, before they lie us into another mess!

Schiefferbrains, of course, pressed no further with the question....

[BenDavid]

24. Excuse me, but

but how would McCain know anything that went on in Nam. He was a p o w and not in any action for years. Personally, I have never been on the McCain hero bandwagon. Self preservation was what his main concern was..... Those POW's that never accept being called a hero, has always earned my respect. Unlike McCain who thrives on being called a hero.....

[RageFist]

57. Did you know that McCain's father...

had some major pull in the navy (I know he was an officer, just can't remember the rank), which the vietcong knew. They offered to release him based on this fact alone...he opted to stay with his fellow soldiers. Right, Left, centrist, whatever, that, to me, is what real honor is all about. Not the Texas Air Nat'l Guard...

[DamnYank]

60. CinCPac

John Sidney McCain, Jr. was a full admiral and Commander-in-Chief Pacific. As such he commanded all Navy, Army, and Air Force units in the theatre including those who fought in Nam. He retired I believe in '70 or '72 and died in 1980.

[HKTech]

26. Well, yeah

we had a better reason to be in Vietnam than in Iraq.

[ET Awful]

29. Huh? What reason would that be?

It was an equally useless bullshit excuse to go to war based on lies. It was also equally profitable to defense industry moguls.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

30. LOL!! You're kidding, right??

[HKTech]

46. Not Really,

The Communists were using violence to advance their influence (China, Greek Civil War, Korea, Hungary, Cuba, etc) and they would have continued to do so. They would have continued to fund communist revolutions and to spread famines.

We had to try to stop them somewhere. If it wasn't Vietnam, it would have been someplace else.

[mitchum]

27. McCain is a pathetic tool

[LeftyElvis]

33. who should still be languishing in Viet Nam

for war crimes.

[Ian David]

28. In Vietnam, we were able to secure the road to the airport! n/t

[BiggJawn]

31. No OIL in Viet Nam...

No whorehouses in Bagdhad.

[goforit]

32. A Bushbot brainwashed McCain doesn't know his a** from his elbow.

He might as well say,

"WAR,WAR,WAR...KILL,KILL,KILL"

And in essence he did.

[ScotTissue]

34. McCain fathered a bastard child!

Oh wait--that's what the Bush people yell about McCain when they want to discredit him without thinking.

On this board, we say:

"McCain is insane!"
"McCain got brainwashed by the Vietcong!"
"McCain is a whorish sack of shit!"
"Idiot"
"Liar"
"Whore"
"Traitor"

It's really pathetic.

McCain is right; Iraq is not Vietnam. Instead, Iraq is Iraq and that is quite bad enough, thank you.

[NNN0LHI]

37. The more Bush's minions insulted McCain the more McCain kissed Bush's ass

Perhaps McCain likes it? Did you ever consider that? Maybe if we keep insulting McCain he will start liking us too? What do you think? I just might be onto something, eh?

Don

[Dr Fate]

40. Unless he is topping from the bottom. n/t

n/t

[Dr Fate]

38. This is a stupid, useless argument- both of them SUCK.

He is splitting hairs over a comparison- as if that somehow makes this war so great. What a joke.

[Seabiscuit]

42. Fuck You Too, Johnny McShrub!

[WhiteTara]

45. the difference? Let's see...oh I know

he's not a prisoner of war in this one. :puke:

[Lindacooks]

47. Shut up, McCain. You have NO credibility

since you sucked up to the chimp and his minions after they trashed you.

[CityDem]

48. Once again

Anyone democrat or independent who would consider supporting McCain in 2008 is a loon. McCain is a right wing, war mongering, Bushco wannabe and is no more of a maverick than Karl Rove.

[lonestarnot]

53. McCain you are such a dumbass!

[SHRED]

54. ...and then hugs Bu$h.

:puke:

[defiant1]

56. Fuck this dude....

Ever since he and John Kerry(in league with Dick Cheney and the DoD) helped abandon American POW's in Vietnam, I just can't stand him.

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0408,schanberg,51276,1.html

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0408,schanberg2,51267,1.html

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

59. I don't care for McCain myself....

But do you regard all Vietnam vets as "baby killers"?

But: Congratulations on making a post that doesn't wish someone dead!

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

62. Yes, I've heard about Vietnam.

But even back in the 60's, only the more inane of the trust-fundie radicals ever called ALL the returning soldiers "baby killers."

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[obreaslan]

66. How does he feel about B*sh's Iraq-WWII comparison...

I bet he eats that up like he sucks everything else the pResident has. :grr:

[karynnj]

69. But Saigon had elections that were every bit as authentic

as Iraq's and their government was probably more identifable and IN POWER as compared to Iraq's.

[Raiden]

72. McCain is a shameless Bush-whore

I used to really respect the man--but no more

[agincourt]

73. Iraq and Viet Nam are similiar,

because in both cases we were drawn into a long insurgency that was expensive monetarily as well as in human life. I shudder to think what 200 billion to deal with peak oil could have done for us. After the insurgency in various forms dragged on and on, everybody got sick of Viet Nam. The communists then achieved victory with conventional weapons,after the insurgency had pretty much died off by 1975. I think the islamacists want to drag us into long expensive insurgencies in the middle east and may use more terrorism to get us in. After years of fighting insurgencies the USA will be drained and weak. With revenue from $100 bbl oil, they will have a conventional military force to challange the west. Of course our neo-con gov't will fall into that trap just like LBJ did.
There is however a big difference between Viet Nam and Iraq. During Viet Nam, flawed men like Johnson and Nixon still cared about average Americans. I don't think you can say the same about Bush, Delay, and Cheney.