2 block-long breach in Ponchartrain levee ..CNN 11:28 PDT

[SoCalDem]

water has white caps on Canal street..

hospitals at Tulane and another are air evacuating patients.. water rising an inch every 5 minutes:(

[Horse with no Name]

1. Water has WHITE CAPS?

Holy shit.:scared:

[SoCalDem]

2. A hospital official was just on the phone alerting CNN

she said that the state police were "trying" to reach them and another hospital nearby

[SoCalDem]

3. 17th & Canal Street

is the address closest to the breach

[Roland99]

102. Zoomed out map...Canal on the left....Superdome in the lower-right

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=29.976052,-90.105572&spn=0.051632,0.063845&t=k&hl=en


That big gray area in the upper left area (just east of the interstate) is a huge cemetery.




And, on this map, the area in the middle is the French Quarter (Bourbon St. and the areas around it)
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=29.957946,-90.066948&spn=0.025821,0.031923&t=k&hl=en

[SoCalDem]

103. Thanks

:)

[Roland99]

105. Sure...btw, it's not 17th *and* Canal...it's 17th St. Canal

;)

Canal is down by the French Quarter.

[FVZA_Colonel]

4. Why the HELL did they not get these people out earlier?!

It's bad enough that a number of people couldn't get out of the city due to lack of transportation, but hospital patients were left behind?!

[SoCalDem]

6. She said that NINETY people are on ventilators

How can they even move them..? and the emergency power source for the hospital is going to be compromised soon because of the water pouring into the hospital.

[Horse with no Name]

15. They can move them--vents are conveniences--you can take a patient off

The emergency power sources in the hospital generally run only basic needs. Patients on vents are bagged manually (by hand). It isn't hard to do but it is very tedious and requires tremendous manpower.
Hopefully they have some of the portable vents that were battery operated.
These patients are fragile. Some will lose their lives from being moved because they are not stable.
This is an ugly situation that will only get uglier.

[Kittycat]

104. Yes and No - if they are a preemie

You face more complications with bagging a patient. Too much air gets into the stomach, and can cause trouble with the bowels (preforation, etc).

[FVZA_Colonel]

17. I didn't mean a few hours ago

I had meant as Katrina was still approaching the city, when there would have been time to travel via roadway.

[Horse with no Name]

19. It is still dangerous to transport unstable patients

Day or Night. Air or Ground.
The other nightmare is finding somewhere to take them.
I'm guessing Houston, Longview, Tyler or Shreveport.
Those would be the best places at this time.

[Hissyspit]

7. Some considered too critical to move. "Safer" to keep them in a hospital..

and hope for the best.

[justabob]

8. All critical care patients

Tulane Hospital caller said almost all were very seriously ill people....Very difficult to transport in the best of times. I can understand them not doing it until they have to, but now it will be MUCH more difficult

[VolcanoJen]

11. Welcome to DU, FVZA_Colonel!!

:toast:

[Horse with no Name]

16. The hospital patients are the reason why they waited until Sunday

to call for a mandatory evac.
They had to consult with their attorneys to make sure they could be exempted.
In reality, hospitals are generally the strongest buildings in the city.
The staff is extensively trained for emergencies.
The problem is that moving critically unstable patients increases the chance of death dramatically.
That's why they tried to keep them where they were and hope for the best. It was in the best interests of the patients.
Now it looks like they will have to move them--you can expect many of these most critically ill patients not to make the transport.
It started out as a no-win situation and only got worse.:(

[AllyCat]

82. Thanks Horse. Now I see your post after mine.

You answered my question.

[AllyCat]

81. Wonder if it has anything to do with Nagin not calling a mandatory evac.

Apparently, not calling a mandatory evac and making it "voluntary" was to save hospitals from having to evacuate. Did he make the evacuation "voluntary" the whole time preceding the storm or did he ever change his mind? Unbelieveable. Even if the Mayor didn't say anything, as a hospital administrator, wouldn't you say "Boy, I think we need to move people out"?

[Roland99]

83. Uh, he *DID* order a mandatory evacuation:

New Orleans mayor calls evacuation order for city; Katrina a Category 5 storm
http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=acb7b0aa-72fe-46f8-ad88-dd4b3424240f

August 28, 2005

Mayor Ray Nagin ordered an immediate mandatory evacuation Sunday for all of New Orleans, a city of 485,000 people, as Hurricane Katrina bore down with 260-kilometre-per-hour wind. Ten refuges of last resort were set up including the Superdome.

"There doesn't seem to be any relief in sight," Gov. Kathleen Blanco said, joining the mayor at a news conference.

The mayor called the order unprecedented, but said Katrina's storm surge would likely top the city's protective levees.

I was even watching the video of his press conference when he ordered it.

[AllyCat]

85. Yes, and moments after my post, I posted right above seeing I missed

it. It's okay. Deepest apologies for not being in the know. That's why I asked the question in my post.

[u4ic]

147. Welcome to DU, FVZA_Colonel

[AuntiBush]

167. Low Numbers of Nat'l Guard Help, you think?

Think about it. And "W" won't be back till tomorrow. WH does not care.

[Hissyspit]

5. The disaster is on-going.

Despite what Bush is up to, despite what the Pentagon says about adequate National Guard units.

[SoCalDem]

9. Our president is eating cake and raising campaign moolah

with the rich folks at Coronado :puke:



Never fear though, in about a week, when it's "safer", he'll climb up on a pile of rubble and his shills in the audience will feed him some "inspiring" lines...and he'll be a Heeeee-ro again.. maybe his approval will inch all the way up to 38%:puke:

[Bhaisahab]

12. c'mon. dont be so harsh on bush

he did urge americans to "pray" for those in the hurricane's path. what more do ya expect him to do?!!

[tedzbear]

181. My Republican cuz really believes that the gov't shouldn't be expected...

...to handle this situation and the good people of NO will have to come together and help themselves.

I didn't even try to argue with him...

[Nothing Without Hope]

152. Doesn't make McCain look great either, but for Bush, it's a "My Pet Goat"

moment. Worse, because there he is in a posh setting, eating cake and jollying up the rich GOP donors. His priorities are crystal clear.

And the National Guard, OUR National Guard, who should be involved in disaster relief - who knows, they might even have been able to shore up those levees - are off being cannon fodder in Bush's immoral war of choice. All those thousands of Guards with family in LA, AL, MS - what frantic fear and frustration they must be feeling.

But Commander Cuckoobananas has cake to serve.

[chicagiana]

158. Deploying the reserves ...

Bush hasn't learned much about how a city acts when the authorities leave has he??? The looting in New Orleans is out of control. They should have had Army units ready to deploy to keep order.

Now that the situation is out of control, they'll just have to wait until all the store shelves are empty. If people want to protect their houses, they'll have to return with flat bottom boats and semi-automatic weapons.

BTW, does anyone else think it's suspicious that the levees didn't break until AFTER the hurricane passed and it was clear the storm surge was not going to swamp the city. It would probably only take a couple of sticks of dynamite to get those things flowing. Seems like someone wanted Bush to have another pile of debris to climb on top of.

The hurricane had passed and the city was safe from catastrophe. Than overnight the levies broke.

[Nothing Without Hope]

162. I didn't think of deliberate destruction of the levee, but that's sure

possible. No one was there to see.

I HAVE been wondering why Bush looks so perky and happy - like he's very PLEASED about the hurricane. It seems like more than his usual sociopathic cluenessness. Is there somethiing about the oil infrastructure, the neighborhoods that were destroyed (surely not strongholds of GOP support), the probable availabllity of cheap land now that so much has been destroyed. Or perhaps just that the cost of oil has soared so high?

He's a sociopath who is incapable of empathy, yes, but doesn't he seem really, really tickled to you? Like he's gotten something he thought he might not be able to pull off?

[goclark]

175. Put his ass on that tricycle and let him put

the pedal to the metal all over NO's .
He is wasting his so called talent with Lance Armstrong.

[Porcupine]

10. Saturated levees can breech at any time.

It happens around Sacremento CA on a regular basis. The levees are not maintained, they saturate and the water starts through a gopher tunnel or something. Next thing you know it's flooding a few square miles of whatever.

[Hissyspit]

13. I would think there are going to be more breeches.

Hope I'm wrong.

[markus]

68. Depends on whether or not its a real levee

It's hard to saturate the clay core of a real levee, and the levees around Orleans Parish are real levees. That doesn't mean they can't fail (as demonstrated here), expecially if compromised.

These were also reinforced with sheetpilings capped with concrete, when the levees were taken to 18'.

[shanti]

130. yep i remember

the one in marysville in 1986. i was going to college there at the time when the levee broke and flooded linda and olivehurst, but i lived on the other side of the levee. it took out an entire mall and much more, and since the school was nearby, there were no classes for a couple of weeks. scary stuff, floods, and so very destructive!

[Nothing Without Hope]

153. and of course Bush slashed the funds for hurricane protection and disaster

relief and stole OUR National Guard and its resources for his dirty war in Iraq.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4482567
Thread title: Bush has slashed Clinton's Disaster Mitigation Program. (unbelievable)
Posted by barbaraann GD Forum Sun Aug-28-05 12:23 PM

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2042880
Thread title: New Orleans district, U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Cut by Bush
Posted by usregimechange GD-P Mon Aug-29-05 12:25 AM

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4490119
Thread title: Bush Cut Hurricane, Flood Protection Funding to New Orleans
Posted by Lori Price CLG GD Forum Sun Aug-28-05 09:59 PM

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2042922
Thread title: DU media Blast Bush's cuts to U.S. Army Corps of Engineers
sregimechange GD-P Mon Aug-29-05 12:54 AM

[kodi]

14. i was in the corps of engineers and at grand teton when it collapsed

an awful mess. but that was not near a metropolitan area of 1,000,000.

god help those folks. i still can not reach a dear friend from the suburbs of NO on his cell phone

i can hear bartenders all over america this week describing a new drink, ..the Big Easy....bourbon street and water

[Wizard777]

18. Aw, Crap! This could get worse than 9/11. Don't everybody go praying

all the sametime now. We need to get boots moving. Those people need Major help.

[Swamp Rat]

20. i'm in Memphis, looking at the remains of my city on a motel TV.

:cry: water rising... people in attics! my dogs and all the animals in kennels! it's dark and searches are difficult if not impossible. what about the prisoners in parish prison? .. god! folks in hospitals on life support! :cry:

[rodeodance]

22. cnn just said that the hospitals are not evacuating at this time--water

is rising but not that fast. So, it is wait and see attitude at the moment.

[Swamp Rat]

24. yes, but people are in attics, in pitch black night.

:cry:

[NorthernSpy]

26. never has dawn seemed so far away

:cry:

[GumboYaYa]

54. I'm just sick....

I know so many older people who would not or could not get out. I have several friends and family members in NO right now that most likely will not be able to survive the aftermath. The heat may end up being as bad as the floods for some of the elderly.

I am really glad you got out SwampRat.

[peacebuzzard]

58. SR, where did your mother stay?

I believe you posted she stayed behind.
Also, do you know of Pitohui? He is in there w/ his animals somewhere.
Abracos,

[SoCalDem]

59. I am SOOOOOO glad you decided to leave

It sucks that what you left behind is devastated, but at least you , you are safe and relatively dry :hug:

I hope that your Mom & pets are ok too.. phone service is bad right now..You will probably hear from her soon.

[peacebuzzard]

65. From what I am understanding, his mother is in the Quarter and his dogs,

are in that mess, too. This is very bad for the SR. OMG

[SoCalDem]

67. Oh no.. I thought they all went to memphis..

I'll edit ..I misread it.. I thought they were kenneled where he was now.:(

[intheflow]

64. Swamp Rat.

I'm so sorry. I didnt' know you are from that area. I'm hoping for the safety of your pets. I know I can't say anything to make it better, but know that I have always appreciated your humor here on DU, and my heart is with you today. :hug:

[mom cat]

89. I am so sorry for you and all of the others.

:grouphug:
Stay away as long as you can.

[yardwork]

156. Swamp Rat, I'm glad you're ok

I was worried about your safety.

I'm so sorry.

[FourStarDemocrat]

163. Very sorry to hear about your situation SwampRat, and also the many others

I wish you all the best. Please keep us posted.

[halobeam]

166. I'm so sorry Swamp Rat.....

my heart goes out to you.

[NorthernSpy]

21. I guess this is the thing we were all afraid of

Just this evening, it seemed as though it wouldn't get this bad.

And now the Pontchartrain levee has failed?

Somehow, I just can't believe it.

:cry:

[NorthernSpy]

23. story from Bloomberg:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aIdrLw1ZM2cY&refer=us

(...)

The streets of New Orleans are flooding after breaches of a levee in the city, possibly due to sandbags piles collapsing, Trooper Doug Pierrelee, a spokesman for Louisiana state police, said in a telephone interview today. The city's French quarter is underwater, he said.

Water is rising 1 inch (25 centimeters (sic)) every 5 minutes and has risen 6 feet (1.82 meters) at the Tulane University Hospital, which is planning to evacuate, CNN reported earlier, citing Karen Troyer-Caraway, the hospital's vice-president.

The police are receiving calls by hundreds of people who are stranded in the attics of their houses, waiting to be rescued, Pierrelee said.

About 200 rescue boats were working to get them out, he said. Some of the callers or their families were injured and some were pregnant or had their children with them, he said.

(...)

[Nothing Without Hope]

154. And those are just the ones WITH WORKING CELL PHONES. How many

have no way to call for help?

[chicagiana]

160. I thought the cells were down ...

No electricity = no cell service. Very curious.

I saw some pictures of them cutting people out of there attics and then plopping them onto the boat right nearby. The peaks of the roofs only 2-3 feet above the water line.

When all is said and done, they will probably find hundreds of people drowned to death in their attics. This is a great tragedy.

[NorthernSpy]

25. a more detailed story from CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/30/katrina/index.html

Levee breach reported along lakefront of New Orleans

NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- As the death toll from Hurricane Katrina reaches at least 56, a levee holding back the waters of Lake Pontchartrain has reportedly sustained a breach two blocks long in the Lakefront area of New Orleans.

(...)

Karen Troyer Caraway, vice president of Tulane University Hospital, told CNN that Louisiana State Police had confirmed the New Orleans breach to her.

Water at the hospital, located in New Orleans' central business district, was rising at the rate of a foot an hour, she told CNN, and had already reached the top of the first floor.

"It's dumping all the lake water in Orleans Parish," she said. "It's essentially running down Canal Street. We have whitecaps on Canal Street."

"We now are completely surrounded by 6 feet of water, and are about to get on the phone with Federal Emergency Management Agency to start talking about evacuation plans," Caraway said. "The water is rising so fast, I can't even begin to describe how fast it is rising."

She did not know whether any pumps had been turned on to pump the water, but said, "they're not going to be able to compete with Lake Pontchartrain."

The story also confirms the reports of hospital evacuations.

[speedoo]

27. New Orleans Levee has been breached... two block long breach. (CNN)

Lake Pontchartrain is now flowing into New Orleans.

This from a VP at Tulane Hospital, who got the report from State Police. Looks like there will have to be an air evacuation of the hospital... 1,000 patients.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. now that will be fun at this time, really

NOT

[Occulus]

29. oh SHIT

Not good. Very very bad.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. oh holy shit..that's not good

[lvx35]

31. this is really really big.

If you haven't seen it, you might want to check out this video here.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4503782&mesg_id=4503782

This is big stuff. A lot of people are dead. Tragedy and huge problems everywhere. On the long term note, people were speculating a few years ago that NO is sinking, and that a single hurricane, combined with the effect of global warming, could put the city under for good.

[chicagiana]

161. New Orleans will NEVER recover 100% ...

The fatal flaw of this city has been laid bare. Many who left will stay gone. And the flood insurance will keep many more from rebuilding.

Time for the Corp of Engineers to think about jacking up the city. And I certainly hope there is a commission that looks into why the steel core concrete capped levees failed AFTER the hurricane was done and over with.

[expatriot]

32. Damn it... I thought your title was "No breach"

[SoCalDem]

61. Someone else posted after this one and abbreviated New orleans

an unfortunate abbreviation in this case :(

[jobycom]

33. The mayor said this several hours ago

Is this a new break, or the same one at 17th and Canal? I got the idea it was the same breach from this morning.

[Kenroy]

34. hard to tell

the woman from Tulane said there was NO standing water there from the storm, but the first floor was now flooded, and the water was rising quickly. So clearly something has changed.

[Garbo 2004]

50. Same one. n/t

[screembloodymurder]

55. Mayor has full commitment from Feds

From the President on up.

[Swamp Rat]

35. god!

my mom is in the Quarter! ... people in attics... kennels, my poor dogs! :cry:

[renate]

39. I'm so sorry....

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[Trevelyan]

182. I am also so sorry, will pray, since Bush won't do anything and

sprituality and prayer can be very powerful. Think positive about your families and all the families. :grouphug:

[colorado_ufo]

40. Swamp Rat, so sorry!

I will say a prayer for you, and for us all, and for the animals. My husband and I were born and raised in N.O., and our families have been there for generations. We are sort of the "black sheep" for moving to Colorado!

Now the whole family is evacuated to different places - just heard from them all this evening, except my sister, who rode the storm out at home in Poplarville, MS. She called me from the eye of the hurricane with major damage to her house, and we have not been able to contact her since. She couldn't see her horses, but said the dogs were safe for now. Sis said she had never seen anything like it.

Your Mom didn't evacuate?

[Swamp Rat]

42. She couldn't because of her SO, but they are in the Monteleone Hotel

I pray she is OK, and your sister too... and all the animals in Audubon Zoo... :cry:

[arcos]

44. Lo siento mucho Swamp...

Al menos estás bien, pero sin duda es una situación muy difícil. Lo siento... :hug:

[Swamp Rat]

45. gracias hermano

no sé que pasó de mi amigo de San José. No podia hacer contacto con el antes de sair de la ciudad... ¡huey puta! e agua está chegando na cidade e tem gente no sótão que vão morrer! ay! ¡mis perros! :cry:

[arcos]

46. ....

:cry: :hug:

[peacebuzzard]

73. SR, I said this B4--my casa is your casa.

Tou aqui em Knoxville, seja bem vindo...v. e seu pai. Em vez de gastar no hotel de Memphis, A distancia e' mais ou menos 7 horas de carro. A casa e' pobre, talvez tem que dormir no chao, mais a gente da' um jeito... tem feijao e arroz de microonda. Com toda sinceridade, seja bemvindo.

[NorthernSpy]

47. here's one reason to take heart:

The Monteleone is 16 floors high, so your mom probably has a really good chance of staying safe and out of the flood waters.

Even so, I know it's so hard to be left waiting and worrying, and unable to change anything.


:grouphug:

[Swamp Rat]

48. she's on the third floor last I spoke with her... 32 hours ago. n/t

[Zhade]

51. Here's hoping for the best, SR.

:hug:

[alarcojon]

57. Yo tambien estoy pensando en ti

y en tu familia.

[GumboYaYa]

99. At least the Montleone is high enough to be safe for now.

Good luck SwampRat. We are trying to figure out how to get down there to bring family members up to St. Louis. Have you seen anything on evacuating the people still in the city?

[myrna minx]

60. We are here for you.

:cry: :hug: :hug: :hug:

[peacebuzzard]

62. OMG,

..... OMG.

[LynzM]

92. Swamp Rat, I'm so, so sorry to hear that

Good wishes to your mom, you, and your animals. I'll be thinking of you guys and keeping you in my thoughts, along with all the others still there :( :hug:

[Biased Liberal Media]

177. Swamp

My thoughts are with your family! I am so sorry.

:cry: :hug:

[Andromeda]

36. CNN is talking about it now...

Spokeswoman says the hospital is on emergency backup power but will lose it when water reaches second floor. First floor is already under water.

[Andromeda]

37. The breach in the levee is two blocks long...

So far, but water is rising fast at 17th Street Canal. Dumping lake water into NO Parish--white caps on water because it's moving so fast. Quarter is battered---20 ft. floodwaters.

[NorthernSpy]

38. my aunt and uncle are in either the hospital or the Dome...

We haven't heard from them.

I'm hoping as hard as I can that everyones loved ones will make it through this okay.

[juajen]

41. My historian hubbie has a solution

Says they have to do what the Dutch did in WWII when Nazis breached their dike. Put two big ships in the breach; should be some from the port. This should give them time to heal the breach. Somebody needs to tell them. This is the time when everyone should appreciate the value of history.

[Qibing Zero]

43. It can never be said enough...

..how much just a little study of the past can aid us today. Every day I research more, I see direct comparisions to situations today that should just flat out not be happening. Sometimes it seems oh so bleak.

[donheld]

143. Welcome to DU Qibing Zero

:hi:

[artemisia1]

52. Wouldn't work here. No ocean access for large ships and lake too shallow.

Also, the area the Nazi's used was more accessible (no storm) and they had large ships they could bring to bear quickly.

[DRoseDARs]

53. As I said in the other thread, this isn't a shipping canal...

...it's a drainage ditch. Such ships won't fit except in the opening of the "canal" on the lake.

[markus]

69. No, but a big ass tow boat could put an empty barge in the mouth

of the canal, and sink it.

The only problem there is, you lose the 17th St. Canal pumping station, which uses this canal to drain central parts of the city.

But if the lake is backflooding the city, they need to do this or something now.

[Scooter24]

49. my mother called me last night

she is a pediatric surgeon. She, along with a few of her nurses, are thinking about heading down to the NO area later tomorrow to offer free assistance to anyone who needs it.

Things aren't looking good for the area :(

[SoCalDem]

86. I just heard that they are moving patients to the Superdome

.. I hope they can repair the roof before more rain comes

[Tin Man]

56. photo of levee breach - 17th St Canal near Lakeshore Park in Metarie

[myrna minx]

63. Oh god.

:cry:

[QuettaKid]

66. Here's a satellite view of the same area

from maps.google.com

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=30.019583,-90.121740&spn=0.004245,0.007420&t=k&hl=en

[Tin Man]

72. great link

zoom in/out with mouse clicks for best perspective

[Junkdrawer]

97. Thanks

:thumbsup:

[Roland99]

111. Here are two more maps to give an idea of the vicinity to downtown

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=29.976052,-90.105572&spn=0.051632,0.063845&t=k&hl=en

That big gray area in the upper left area (just east of the interstate) is a huge cemetery.




And, on this map, the area in the middle is the French Quarter (Bourbon St. and the areas around it)
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=29.957946,-90.066948&spn=0.025821,0.031923&t=k&hl=en

[atommom]

70. How horrible! :(

[northzax]

71. Scarily, this isn't the worst news

thank goodness, it looks like the sea did not breach into Ponchartrain, which, combined with this levee break, would have eliminated New Orleans, so thanks for little favours. THe breach of a street-side levee can be repaired (how are the pumps this morning, anyone know?) but the ocean cannot be stopped.

what a mess. Just when we start to get cocky, the planet (no anthropomorphism intended) shrugs and we are reminded of how small and feeble we really are.

[mom cat]

74. New levee break. Water rising a foot an hour in NO

http://www.cnn.com/

Click on levee break

[Teaser]

75. New or same?

I only see reference to the 17th and Canal Street break...

[maddezmom]

76. I'm pretty sure it's the same one

but who knows

[jobycom]

77. Not a new one. This is the same one from yesterday. nt

[GoBlue]

78. According to an unconfirmed comment...

by Soledad O'brien. Did you even listen before posting this 'Non headline'.?

[mom cat]

80. Not Soledad...Chad Meyers..meteorologist: Did YOU follow the link?

[Minstrel Boy]

79. There are two breaches:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4505620&mesg_id=4505620

[ramapo]

84. Story seems to be downplayed

These breaches may get NO close to the worst-case scenario. How in hell do they fix a breach of that size? Not quickly, that's for sure.

Water is so powerful, it is very difficult to stop, so this flooding will continue until some kind of equalibrium is reached.

[htuttle]

87. The water will stop when it rises to sea level in the city

...Which was pretty much the worst case scenario -- it's just happening a bit slower than it would have had Katrina hit N.O. square on.

Worse yet, much of the water the storm dropped upriver from New Orleans is going to flow right back down to the city.

[northzax]

90. not sea level

the level of Ponchartrain, which is a little below sea level, I think.

[htuttle]

101. Hmm...not sure about that

But I think Lake Pontchartrain connects to the Gulf of Mexico, so physics tells me they'd have to be the same altitude (without a set of locks between them, etc...).

:shrug:

[northzax]

114. no, there is a levee between ponchartrain and the Gulf

the big fear was that the natural break between the two would go and let in the storm surge. the egress is controlled by canals and locks...I know the lake is about 6 feet lower, normally, than the river at the same point.

[markus]

121. No, there is not

The Lake is open to the Gulf of Mexico through the Rigolets. This is gulf water that flooding the Lake from combined storm surge and wind-driven seiche. And the lake fills faster than it drains, so it is probably somewhat above sea level at this time. And the city behind the levees is below.

At first I thought this might be contained by the L&N Railroad embankment tha bisects midcity, and by the other canal levees.

What I am guessing is happening is rather like that bad movie about the volcano in L.A. The floodwater is probaby just innundating the storm seweage syste and popping up all over town.

There's no practical way to stop that.

They either stop this breech, or the city will flood to the sea level line.

It sounds like there is more water still coming in via the MGRO to the Ninth WArd.

If there's a second breech somewhere in the Lake Pontchartrain levee system this is very bad.

[brooklynite]

88. WDSU reporting 80% of City underwater

Superdome surrounded by three feet of water

http://www.wdsu.com/news/4913354/detail.html

Live video at:

http://www.wdsu.com/video/4909353/detail.html

[Endangered Specie]

91. Holy cow... I didnt think those levees would breech...

boy was I wrong :(

[mom cat]

93. Water still rising...several breeches in the South Shore levee. WWLTV

[SoCalDem]

94. SHIT.. that sounds ominous..

and yet the news is still re-running the "personal" stories..

[ramapo]

95. Breaches feed upon themselves

Once there is even a small opening, erosion quickly widens it until the pressure is alleviated.

[mom cat]

96. WWLTV is doing a great job..they are back streaming at:

http://www.khou.com/perl/common/video/wmPlayer.pl?title=beloint_khou&props=livenoad

[Roland99]

100. Direct link for WMP

http://www.khou.com/cgi-bin/bi/video/makeadplaylist.pl?title=beloint_khou&live=yes

[ramapo]

106. Sounds out of control

I've been watching the streaming video and the reports coming in are surreal. I don't know if CNN, etc. is covering to the same extent but the websites don't convey the enormity of the situation.

Mention was made as to how surprising this turn of events is. How that can be is beyond me. Here is a city below sea level protected by levees which are obviously not guaranteed in such extreme situations.

[Roland99]

109. 1 - 2' of water in Downtown N.O.; Canal St. is a canal; water lapping F.Q.

[kenny blankenship]

98. So is it assumed now that the water in the lake

and the water level in the city will "equalize"?

[Strelnikov_]

110. If The Levee Breach Invert Has Eroded To Below The Level Of The Lake

as is probably the case, yes.

[kenny blankenship]

122. Lack of Manpower seems to be a big problem for the rescue and recovery

all police and fire dept. practically no mention of National Guard in any coverage. I've seen.

[Francine Frensky]

136. Where are the National Guard???

Oh yeah, Iraq. Imagine the stories if you have a couple LA national guard sitting over in Iraq watching friends and family suffer...die...and having to be over there, not here helping. Horrible thought.

[Tin Man]

137. the irony is deadly, ain't it? eom

[kenny blankenship]

141. cnn: reporter by phone from Biloxi

crowds coming up to their car frantically asking when help is going to come. No water no food. They haven't seen relief/rescue units.

[Nothing Without Hope]

155. Yes, must not embarrass Our Fearless Leader. Who stole and has been

killing OUR National Guard in his immoral war of choice after slashing funds for disaster rellief and hurricane protection. I saw a post last night that Keith Olbermann on MSNBC mentioned the funding cuts by Bush - but I'll bet nobody else dared to, let alone mention that THIS is where the Guard should be.

Did you notice how those pictures of the levies show basically no one working to shore them up?: And they weren't there BEFORE the storm hit either.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4482567
Thread title: Bush has slashed Clinton's Disaster Mitigation Program. (unbelievable)
Posted by barbaraann GD Forum Sun Aug-28-05 12:23 PM

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2042880
Thread title: New Orleans district, U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Cut by Bush
Posted by usregimechange GD-P Mon Aug-29-05 12:25 AM

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4490119
Thread title: Bush Cut Hurricane, Flood Protection Funding to New Orleans
Posted by Lori Price CLG GD Forum Sun Aug-28-05 09:59 PM

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2042922
Thread title: DU media Blast Bush's cuts to U.S. Army Corps of Engineers
sregimechange GD-P Mon Aug-29-05 12:54 AM

[Roland99]

107. WWL reporting reporting water still rising, and pouring fast in 9th ward

[mom cat]

108. Water level rising in NOLA...rising fast in the lower 9th ward...WWLTV

http://www.khou.com/perl/common/video/wmPlayer.pl?title=beloint_khou&props=livenoad

[mom cat]

112. They are hoping to drop sandbags in the breech on the 17th St Canal.

[Roland99]

113. Will that work?

Maybe if they drop about 10,000 all at once from a helicopter right above it.

[Minstrel Boy]

116. 3,000 sandbags is the plan.

Sounds like a Hail Mary measure.

[SoCalDem]

118. They might actually enlarge it if they miss

:scared:

[Neshanic]

119. Very true.

[kenny blankenship]

123. If they don't plug it they may as well enlarge it

because there doesn't seem to be an alternative outcome possible. Either they stop the water or it all comes through.

[Winston702]

124. It's a last ditch attempt

Once a breach forms it is almost impossible to stop until water level equalizes on both sides of the breach and the water velocity approaches zero ft/min.

As they fill the gap, the velocity will increase and undermine the stability of what they have already set in place. If the cross section is 2 blocks wide and flow velocity is 2 ft/min, filling the half the gap will increase flow velocity to 4 ft/min. Filling the remaining gap by half will increase the flow velocity to 16 ft/min.

The best plan of action is to let it flood, use the 1000+ helo trips to pick people off roofs, fill the breach, and pump it out.

[Strelnikov_]

115. WWL Just Said They Are Going To Drop Sandbags From Helicopters

This is desperation.

[bill]

117. Helicopters to help seal breaches

They're going to drop 3000 lb sandbags into the breaches in an effort to stem the flooding according to WWLTV.

* sending 3500 NG troops is an insult

Good luck NOLA from the north coast!

[Strelnikov_]

120. That's A Bit Less Than 1 CY Per Sandbag

At 17' H with 1.5:1 Sideslopes, 200' breech, we are talking 3,500 bags.

Can any helos, outside of Sikorsky Skycrane's, carry more than 1 bag per trip?

[Tin Man]

127. I think these guys are smoking something

Your calcs are on the mark, and should help rule-out an airborn/helo approach in favor of a waterborn/barge approach.

For helicopter, this type of operation requires a "sling load" delivery, in which the cargo is suspended by a cable underneath the helo. Unfortunately, helos carry less weight in a sling-load configuration than they can carry internally, because the pendulum effect of a large load can become too dangerous.

For the typical National Guard helo, a UH-1, a single sandbag (at only 1 cubic yard) appears to be the limit, which would make for 3500 helo trips - entirely unpractical even for a fleet of Hueys. Even a Sikorsky SkyCrane carries only 20K lbs, which would require 600 trips - I think unrealistic, even for a fleet of SkyCranes.

I think the only practical way to plug a gap like that is to deliver earth moving equipment and volumes of fill material on the decks of barges and attack from ground level.

[H5N1]

133. Good post

[Strelnikov_]

134. We Need To Move In Some LCAC's. There Has To Be Some

Marine expeditionary support ships within a day's sailing.

From the pictures I have seen you make a landing zone near the bridge, use them to rotate in trucks carrying 20 CY each of rock.

If you can't find rock, drop in geotextile 'sausages' (big sandbags) filled with soil, similar to the way the Chinese have used facine bundles for centuries to plug holes in the Yellow and Yangtze.

This is why we don't start wars of choice. Resources are now stretched thin.

[ClintonTyree]

140. A day is too late............

it'll all be over by then. If this breech isn't stemmed within the next 8 hours or so, the games over. This breech will widen shortly if it hasn't already. All of that water rushing through there is slicing it open more and more each minute.

It's going to take months to just get the water out of New Orleans, then MAYBE they can start rebuilding, although I don't see the point of it. The entire infrastructure will have been completely ruined by then. The entire City will have to be rebuilt from the underground, up.

The question is, do you rebuild an entire city on a site that IS going to have this happen to it again, or do you rebuild somewhere that is safer? I'm being serious here. There is a point to be made NOT to rebuild New Orleans. This scenario has been discussed in several books about New Orleans.

I hate this. I love New Orleans, the City, it's people and it's culture. But there comes a time when common sense, something the French didn't seem to have when they settled New Orleans in that spot long ago, must prevail. The coastal shorelines have been so eroded that there are no barrier islands and wetlands to protect the area anymore.

I'm sure this question is being mulled over right now, to save New Orleans or let it drown? This is going to cause quite a bit of controversy, I know. But it's something that needs to be considered.

[Strelnikov_]

142. I Wish I Could Close It This Instant

The thing is, it appears to me that all approaches to the site are flooded.

The only way you plug a hole like this is with heavy equipment like I have participated in before, or with thousands of people like the Chinese fighting the Yellow.

It just appears to me the only way to get equipment there is a landing craft. If there is a dry approach to the west of the bridge, maybe things are not a grave as they appear.

[Karenina]

149. Good points, all.

This catastrophe was no "surprise." It has been a disaster waiting to happen as TPTB have twiddled their thumbs for DECADES. Would that the city be totally evacuated until the hurricane season ends. Even as I type there are 3 more storms developing in the Atlantic...

[kskold]

157. human nature = rebuilding

Aside from the issues of property rights and the insane complications of trying to transfer those to a new site, human nature is going to demand that New Orleans be rebuilt where she stands. It's Home.

After every major natural disaster - flood, earthquake, fire, storms of all sorts - people have rebuilt again. Sometimes there are improvements made to help prevent or lessen the damage the next time. I hope that New Orleans can find the money to make some of the improvements that have been proposed over the years. But she's going to rise again just where she is.

I can believe there are people saying "It's time to move, I can't go through this again." But I don't believe there's any thought of abandoning New Orleans entirely.

Kristen
not new, just quiet

[RPM_BU]

135. But can barges navigate the canal

to the point where the break is ?

[mccoyn]

146. I doubt it.

When they get close to the breach the current will pull them through unless they have a tug pulling them away. I doubt there is enough width in the canal for such an operation.

[Strelnikov_]

138. The Media May Have Got It Wrong. I Saw Something That Said 'Flying In'

sandbags, as in flying in the geotextile bags to the staging site.

I am assuming the bags would then be filled with local material and dropped in the hole using endloaders or cranes using hammock slings. This would be the conventional way to attack a breech in a difficult location.

[Tin Man]

145. OK, that makes more sense - eom

[daleo]

125. A bit reminiscent of Chernobyl

They dropped concrete from helicopters to seal the nuclear reactor after the accident. 3500 bags doesn't really sound like that much though. At 3500 pounds per bag, that's about 10,500,000 pounds, or 4,700,000 kg, which is about 2000 cubic meters, assuming sand is about 2 to 3 times as heavy as water. That would fill a void of about 300 meters long by 3 meters wide by 1.75 meters high. I think they would need more for a gap two blocks long, especially if the force of the water is continuing to erode it, which seems probable.

[rfkrfk]

126. where are the sandbag teams? n/t

[Tin Man]

129. they're in Iraq, along with all the sand...

[KeepItReal]

159. Helicopters and Sandbags NEVER GOT THERE

Per Mayor Nagin

[maddezmom]

128. just heard they are going to drop sand bags from helicopters

to plug the hole in the levee on WDSU

[Tin Man]

131. I think helo approach is entirely impractical - see #127 above

[maddezmom]

132. thanks for the post

guess we'll have to wait and see. I just hope they figure something out soon....it's been breeched for over 24 hrs now.

[mom cat]

139. Great info on the flooding from LSU shown on WWLTV

WWL-TV:
http://www.khou.com/perl/common/video/wmPlayer.pl?title=beloint_khou&props=livenoad

The LSU website is www.hurricane.lsu.edu/floodprediction

[LeftHander]

148. LSU Website not responding...

anymore...

[Roland99]

144. BIG picture of the 17th St. Canal breech:

And I mean BIG


forms.belointeractive.com/sharedcontent/datafiles/1125380087252_ORIGINAL_100_0870.jpg

Put an http:// in front of that and paste it into a browser window.

[spooked911]

150. OMG, what a horrible mess

thanks for the pic, though

[Ilsa]

151. Thanks for the pic. eom

[brooklynite]

164. Times-Picayune: Crews frantically work to fix breach

Tuesday, 8:55 p.m. (CDT)

The state Department of Transportation and Development and the Army Corps of Engineers worked into the night to plug a 500-foot breach in the 17th Street Canal
which has flooded Lakeview, West End, Bucktown and large swaths of East Jefferson.

Mark Lambert, chief spokesman for the agency, said that a convoy of trucks carrying 108 15,000-pound concrete barriers – like those used as highway construction dividers -- was en route to the site Tuesday night.

Once there, Lambert said, helicopters which hook up the barriers, and drop them into the hole in the canal.

Lambert said another 50 sandbags, each weighing 3,000 pounds, are also being maneuvered into place to stop the breach.

“That’s 800 tons of concrete,’’ Lambert said. “What we are trying to do is just stop the water from going into the city.’’

Lambert did not say how the state is addressing another breach in the Industrial Canal.

http://www.nola.com/newslogs/breakingtp/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/2005_08.html#075234

[ThoughtCriminal]

165. Another amateur suggestion

from a non-expert - so take it as that.

Try to block the flow of water into the canal rather than the levee.

[AuntiBush]

168. CNN: Notice the FIRST Thing On the List

http://www.cnn.com/

Conditions worsen in New Orleans

# Looting and shootings reported in New Orleans
# Critical patients being airlifted, shelters being evacuated
# New Orleans mayor: Bodies being pushed to the side
# Coast Guard reserves mandatory call up ordered
# Paint marks indicate Mississippi homes with bodies
# Death toll officially around 70 but expected to rise

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/30/katrina/index.html

I'm sorry, but I think "looting" is the last thing to worry about. Seems to me lives are more important. Maybe it's me, but there can't be much to "loot," now, can there. Can't have those pesky poor Insurance (Wall Street) Investors loosing to "looters," now can they.

[ihelpu2see]

169. I posted this question on a Yahoo board and did not get an answer

Is the LA National Guard in Iraq and if so How many? Real numbers would help to see how this tragedy at home has been made worse by tragic foreign policy....

[Minstrel Boy]

170. I heard tonight that approximately 40% are in Iraq. n/t

[ihelpu2see]

171. Thanks... nt

[sunnystarr]

172. Is it too late for the snad bags to work?

8:04 P.M. - Mayor Nagin: Unhappy that the helicopters slated to drop 3,000-pound bags into the levee never showed up to stop the flow of water. Too many chiefs calling shots he says

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html

[chomskysright]

173. busy the papers w/ letter to the editrs: here's mine:$for war=no$for peope

Many citizens of Asheville have valued Nor'lens:City of the Saints. Does the current administration value one of the most unique cities in the US---a city of exceptional cuisine, beignets, and hot nights of watching the tug boats on the Mississippi?

By all indications, they do not. Moreover, Democratic states are punished and Republican states are treated extravagantly. FL, under Governor Jeb Bush received massive funding for hurricane relief in 2004, prior to the presidential election.

Contrarily, in Louisiana, requests for flood mitigation funds were rejected by FEMA this summer. The levee that had a two-block wide hole that allowed Lake Ponchatrain to flow into the city was a high priority project.

North Carolina also has a Democratic governor. It also is a state (remember the dam that busted above Asheville that affected Canton, in particular) that is regularly threatened by hurricanes and floods. FEMA recently refused the state's request to buy backup generators for emergency support facilities. And the budget cuts have halved the funding for a mitigation program that saved an estimated $8.8 million in recovery costs in three eastern North Carolina communities alone after 1999's Hurricane Floyd.

Money for the war, means less money for the people back home.


REFERENCE: FOR THE EDITOR: http://www.bestofneworleans.com/dispatch/2004-09-28/cov ...

[chomskysright]

174. submitted to Times-Picayne Forum board: u can too

"I feel your pain" was expressed by a Dem president.

Many citizens of Asheville have valued Nor'lens:City of the Saints. Does the current administration value one of the most unique cities in the US---a city of exceptional cuisine, beignets, and hot nights of watching the tug boats on the Mississippi?

By all indications, they do not. Moreover, Democratic states are punished and Republican states are treated extravagantly. FL, under Governor Jeb Bush received massive funding for hurricane relief in 2004, prior to the presidential election.

Contrarily, in Louisiana, requests for flood mitigation funds were rejected by FEMA this summer. The levee that had a two-block wide hole that allowed Lake Ponchatrain to flow into the city was a high priority project.

North Carolina also has a Democratic governor. It also is a state (remember the dam that busted above Asheville that affected Canton, in particular) that is regularly threatened by hurricanes and floods. FEMA recently refused the state's request to buy backup generators for emergency support facilities. And the budget cuts have halved the funding for a mitigation program that saved an estimated $8.8 million in recovery costs in three eastern North Carolina communities alone after 1999's Hurricane Floyd.

Money for the war, means less money for the people back home.

Asheville, NC


REFERENCE: FOR THE EDITOR: http://www.bestofneworleans.com/dispatch/2004-09-28/cov ...

[confludemocrat]

180. chomskysright's right. as with fires in CA in 2003 Bush shorted state

It is so transparently obvious to anyone who gives a shit that Bush and Co dragged their feet on this and Bush's slow and lazy treatment of this disaster by any show of concern prior to the mess or immediately after is also there for all to see.

Will his nonresponse to the subject get any scrutiny by the MSM? No is my prediction.

[rfkrfk]

176. why are there no floodgates, on this canal?

who made that insane decision?
who benefits?
where is the investigation?

edit,spelling

[mom cat]

178. Mayor of NOLA said in a news conference that someone dropped the ball

on the sandbagging of the 17th St Canal breech and that pumping station #6 was now not functioning. His ad visors were telling him that the pump had been working up until yesterday afternoon, and that pump had kept the flooding from getting worse.Without that pump, the water level would continue to rise to the lake level which was going to be 3 ft above sea level...up to 9 ft total. He said that this new flooding would affect areas like the French Quarter that had not flooded up till now.
He was very angry that the sandbagging had not gone through and said that he WOULD find out who was responsible. He said..The bowl is going to fill up within 12 to 15 hours.
I hope that something has happened overnight to change this dire prediction..I was too bummed out last night to post this and haven't heard anything yet this morning. WWL was off the air and WDSU was just droning on about the impact on the New Orleans Saints.

[SoCalDem]

179. Gee.. do ya think???

It sounds to me as if the main "plan" was .."Hope Katrina goes somewhere else"

and in general, they have an untenable situation..Too many people in too small of an unsafe place..

no "real" shelters, probably because all along they "knew" it wouldn't really matter because the whole place would fill up..