N.Y. Judge Hesitant on Abu Ghraib Photos

[Eugene]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5244423,00.html

N.Y. Judge Hesitant on Abu Ghraib Photos


Wednesday August 31, 2005 1:46 AM

By LARRY NEUMEISTER

Associated Press Writer

NEW YORK (AP) - A judge said Tuesday he was hesitant to release
pictures and videotapes of detainee abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison
while top government officials insisted that deaths could result.

U.S. District Judge Alvin K. Hellerstein commented as he listened to
Manhattan's top government lawyer and an attorney for the American
Civil Liberties Union, which was seeking release of the pictures.

The judge questioned whether he could disregard arguments by Gen.
Richard B. Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who has
warned that releasing the photos would aid al-Qaida recruitment,
weaken the Afghan and Iraqi governments and incite riots against U.S.
troops.

"How can I ignore the expert opinion of General Myers, who is
concerned with the safety of his troops?" the judge asked. "I can't
substitute my opinion for the opinion of General Myers."

He said troops in Iraq "face danger every day and don't deserve to
have that danger enlarged."

more...

[ClassWarrior]

1. If that's the result, it's not the fault of the fucking photos.

It's the fault of the criminals in the White House. And then this prick of a judge becomes an accomplice.

NGU.

[saigon68]

46. Myers is a Thug and a War Criminal

He is Rumsfelds Catamite.

[Sub Atomic]

2. Hey Judge Hellerstein: fuck you.

What about the rights of American citizens to know what atrocities are being done in our name by the direction of those in power?





"How can I ignore the expert opinion of General Myers, who is
concerned with the safety of his troops?" the judge asked. "I can't
substitute my opinion for the opinion of General Myers."




Who cares about your opinion. You're a judge. You follow the letter of the law.

If you refuse to do so, then step the fuck down.

Asshole.

[saigon68]

50. Myers doesn't want shit like this to be seen

I think the War Criminal Myers secretly gets off, on how he abused these people

[yurbud]

3. Did the judge mention that if there was no bad behavior...

there would be nothing in the photos to incite violence?

This is an odd kind of argument:

You can't reveal our crimes because more people might be hurt.

It sounds a lot like Scalia's argument for not allowing the recount in Florida:

It might do serious damage to George W. Bush's legitimacy at president (DUH).

[madeline_con]

4. They should have thought of that....

before they made a policy of abuse, the $%&*@s!!!

[Amonester]

15. Yeah, and before they invaded a country based on lies.

He said troops in Iraq "face danger every day and don't deserve to have that danger enlarged."

Yeah. Right. So the (R?) "judge" must mean they DID deserve to have that danger in the first place, since nobody (and "nothing" too, BTW) in Iraq represented a real threat to anyone to start with... so the boys 'n girls "deserved" to be put in that (present and future) danger, I suppose? :mad:



Where is Bin Laden? :evilfrown:

[madeline_con]

16. This judge is a tool.

OBL is probably staying in the WH. Who would know if he showered and shaved?

[Trevelyan]

62. RINF.com Good site with real news on continuation of Police State

http://www.rinf.com/news/aug-05/78.html

The British public is the target of a relentless psychological warfare campaign to shock it into submission. The murder of Brazilian engineer Jean Charles de Menezes was no accident. The message was that the state could murderanyone at any time without any reason.

The British are so terrified that a recent poll showed 75% willing to forego their civil rights for more "security." It doesn't occur to most of them that this is the way dictatorships take power, by trickery.

I wouldn't be surprised if the London Zoo stunt was concocted across town at the Tavistock Institute, where the British elite has been waging psychological war on humanity for more than eighty years.

The public reaction to this stunt should have been outrage. How dare they degrade us in this way? But apparently the public already has been so degraded it doesn't know the difference. Or too shocked and appalled to speak.

Educated people? What a pathetic disappointment.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

getting closer and closer still... to civil war.

by American who has HAD ENOUGH Thursday August 25, 2005 at 01:07 AM

~~~~
Many eyewitness accounts indicate that officers singled out party goers attempting to document the events on camcorders, cameras and camera phones. Victims have claimed that officers knocked cameras out of the hands of the owner, even confiscating some. Luckily, one video has surfaced, and is quickly spreading across the internet, as well as being featured by at least one local news station.

The video clearly displays a large number of officers dressed in full camouflage fatigues, some brandishing rifles. In the higher quality version of the video, which includes sound, it is apparent that the use of a taser was employed. While the video is somewhat unclear at times, the viewer can plainly see an officer atop a young girl fully subdued on the ground on her stomach; he swings on her at least twice, as more officers rush forward to manhandle the girl. It is clear that many others were subdued using similar levels of force.

[TankLV]

35. Solution: BRING THEM HOME - NOW! then!

There.

We solved BOTH your "problems"!

[savemefromdumbya]

5. gun to his head?

This is ridiculous. The photos are there - it happened. Why at every step of the way is this tynannical government stopping the public knowing the truth?

[madeline_con]

17. Because they'd be lynched for their crimes....

and they know it.

(I'm expecting a visit from the MIB any day now...)

[Hissyspit]

6. Damn, they kept judge-shopping and found their jerk... n/t

[Judi Lynn]

7. I wonder how he received his veiled or not-so-veiled death threats.

Who wouldn't be concerned they'd Wellstone him, yet judges are supposed to be tough enough to do the right thing, anyway.

[Amonester]

8. So Oh-My Oh-My Myers is a "higher" Judge now????

I bet he never ordered to drop any illegal weaponry stuff on innocents heads!!

Ain't Judging by the Common Law Judges' JOB???
(re: precisely what the taxpayers pay 'em for????)

:banghead:

[karynnj]

9. Isn't Myers statement proof in and ofitself that bad things happened

Couldn't his statement - that of the Joint Chief of staff - tacitly making an official statement that abuse happened sufficient. (After all Newsweek had no pictures of Koran desicration just words. ) Aren't they beimg hypocritical.

[Brundle_Fly]

10. NO ACCOUNTABILITY!

Ever again.

We live in a dictatorship, we are losing our civil rights, the judges are allowing the government to hide their crimes, what the fuck is happening to this country??

[Brundle_Fly]

11. It's called the FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT!

If we ignore it, what is the point?

[BattyDem]

14. Exactly!

This is about the law. The judge needs to follow the law, not the opinion of a General who is trying to protect his own ass!

[newyorican]

12. They can't handle the truth...

the people can, but the administration can't.

[BattyDem]

13. So let me get this straight ...

it is now acceptable for the government to cover up any and all crimes so as not to piss off other people? :wtf:

[Amonester]

18. Yeah, like they never do (and never did) anything to piss off

the hearts and minds of anyone in the world (AND inside the country also).

They probably wish to impose false images of themselves as "Saints" to every single heart and mind walking the earth!

O8) Through throats!!

[BattyDem]

22. It's ridiculous! This judge is overlooking one simple fact:

The Iraqis ALREADY KNOW what happened at Abu Ghraib! How could they not? It was their family, friends and neighbors who were the victims!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

24. Please don't interrupt them while they're trying their

new lines of bullshit on.

So uncivilized.

[kodi]

19. good grief, the judge, not the general dictates what to do here

what a despicable remark for a man who is supposed to be sitting on the bench.

extending that idiot's logic one could keep incarcerated a martin luther king in a birmingham jail because a sheriff says his release might cause bloodshed.

justice is supposed to be about what happened, not what happens if justice is actually served.

this is the fundamental difference between liberals and conservatives; liberals have faith in being able to deal with the unknown, conservatives are terrified of it.

[Alizaryn]

20. Ugh...does not sound good.

[Gregorian]

21. Independent prosecutor time?

I was worried this judge would be a "fascist".

[BattyDem]

23. These pictures will never be released unless someone leaks them.

:-(

[Gregorian]

28. Even if they aren't leaked, we now know their content.

Now we know how serious these crimes are. I think it's safe to extrapolate, given everything else we know about this evil administration.

[mmonk]

25. Half the country

believes there has been no torture. We can't break the grip of this cult until the followers see for themselves.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

26. The latter part of the article is just incredible

Here's what the judge added:


"Yet, he said, there was a "high prurient value" in the pictures.

"A judge cannot look at these without thinking to himself how quickly they'd be put on the 6 o'clock or 11 o'clock news and how easily they could be subverted to create a false picture of this country," he said."


How can the Judge possibly decide that releasing true and untouched depictions of actual, REAL conduct can "create a false picture of this country"?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? If it's proof of REAL conduct, it's real. It's not for a judge to decide an issue based on how a news broadcaster will use the real photos depicting real government conduct. Is the "picture of the country" even a matter for a judge to decide in ruling on the public right to know? The "picture of the country" is a highly subjective political and sociological question and one FAR beyond the bounds of what this judge has been asked to and required to adjudicate. That's a clear abuse of discretion by this judge, if it forms any part of his ruling.

[brettdale]

27. So Whats happens now?????

Is there no ruling at all?

Does the judge rule at a later date?

What is the next step?

[I_Make_Mistakes]

29. I agree with the previous poster

The Iraqi's and many others they converse with already know about the abuse.

This goes to the credibility of the US and her tenets of democracy, transparency, rule of law etc..

The world is waiting for us to fess up and deal with the actions of our administration. I think the impact could be far worse by not exposing the truth, than exposing it.

The truth always has a way of exposing itself.

Edit to add:

Putin and Chavez +++, will have a field day with this.

[unschooler]

30. The scary thing is we can't trust the federal appeals courts to

overrule this kind of nonsense.

History will judge the judges who let all of this happen.

[PassingFair]

31. But, but Chris Hitchens sez that we won that "battle"

they were worse than us, right?

"LET ME BEGIN WITH A simple sentence that, even as I write it, appears less than Swiftian in the modesty of its proposal: "Prison conditions at Abu Ghraib have improved markedly and dramatically since the arrival of Coalition troops in Baghdad."

I could undertake to defend that statement against any member of Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International, and I know in advance that none of them could challenge it, let alone negate it. Before March 2003, Abu Ghraib was an abattoir, a torture chamber, and a concentration camp. Now, and not without reason, it is an international byword for Yankee imperialism and sadism. Yet the improvement is still, unarguably, the difference between night and day. How is it possible that the advocates of a post-Saddam Iraq have been placed on the defensive in this manner? And where should one begin?"

Sure would fuck up his little lecture to release those pictures, n'est pas?

[Warren DeMontague]

32. What an interesting about-face from Judge Hellerstein.

If you follow the case back for the past 2 years, this pretty much flies in the face of every ruling he's previously delivered.

And, as others have noted, if he rules against disclosure this precedent renders the FOIA, essentially, meaningless.

And the DoD filings? The ones which he ruled "generally in favor of disclosure"? Yeah. Most of the stuff which we didn't see before is still under seal.

Makes me :tinfoilhat:wonder:tinfoilhat: if the Bush Admin. was more specific than we know with Judge Hellerstein about any, er, particular individuals who might be put in danger if this stuff were released...

Know Wotti Mean?

[Frederik]

42. It's a frightening thought

But entirely realistic. Alternatively, or additionally, there could have been a carrot involved.

[leesa]

33. What a tool this guy is! Hey idiot, you think the Iraqis don't know about

this? How can you ignore the war criminal Myers? These people are unbeliveably naive. They are so easy to con.

[TankLV]

34. Hey you ignorant asswipe Judgie: It's not the PHOTOS but the ATROCITIES

THEMSELVES that are the "problem"!

jesusfuckingchrist!

[howmad1]

36. The son of a bitch

has been bought and paid for. ;(

[slay]

37. So basically we can just do whatever we want and cover it up

Welcome to George Bush's America. :(

[Barrett808]

38. kick for justice

[K-W]

39. So now Generals are the highest law of the land. GREAT EOM

[Frederik]

40. Can't substitute your opinion???

What the fuck? How did you get through law school without hearing about the SEPARATION OF POWERS?


Baron de Montesqieu

[madmark]

41. If you were an average grunt on the ground patrolling Bagdad

would you want these additional Abu Graib pictures and video (which I presume to be awful) released?

[Ezlivin]

45. If I were an average grunt I would want to come home

Fuck the photographs. Those are just evidence of a crime. They have nothing to do with "me" (the average grunt) and what I did.

The only reason not to release the photos is protection of the higher-ranking officers. As an "average grunt" I don't give a damn about officers.

[Amonester]

48. What difference would that make? All the Iraqis already know

what happened there already (they happen to have "real" news there, sometimes, at least, as opposed to...)!! What difference would it make?

A: None.

[0007]

43. I guess the boys came and talked to this judge and that is why

he's hesitant. Maybe Bolton visited the judge?

[Solly Mack]

44. If Myers was concerned he would have never been a part of the torture

policy of America. It's that simple. He would have outted the practice. He would have condemend the admistration. He would have called for the punishment of ALL involved - up to and including Bush ...he's not concerned about anyones safety but his own.

[The Stranger]

47. The whole point of release is not "to substitute one's opinion for someone

else's." This is the most activist behavior imaginable -- it is censorship.

[The Night Owl]

49. What a farce...

If releasing the torture photos endangers the troops, then why not clamp down on all bad news coming out of Iraq? Why not hide casualty figures? Why not hide the cost of the war?

I can't believe a judge is buying this line of BS from Myers.

[ChrisK]

51. Umm "Bring it on"?.Was that not causing the troops to face danger daily?

When the President said those three words he just ramped up the "I dare you" meter, basically daring the insurgents to kill even more troops in Iraq but was the President asked to stop inciting the people in that country to kill even more troops? Not to my knowledge.

I respect where the judge MIGHT be going but the law is the law and if the troops are truly fighting for the freedoms of the United States then they must also understand we as a nation have to face what we have done wrong no matter how grave and disgusting it might be. We can not ask for justice in the world when we will not face it at home for the mistakes we have made.

I have a feeling that the judge was told that "The ones that did what you see in these photos were brought to justice" by the General so what good would it be to rehash the past?...We CAN NOT sit here telling others to have transparency when we ourselves will not follow the same rule of law, it goes against the very basis of our way of life in America...we MUST come clean and deal with the backlash no matter how horrible it may be.

The only Americans not ready for the release of these photos are the ones with there heads still in the sand, and there the ones the General is really worried about because it just might get some of them to ask "What the fuck is going on over there"?

Even the Germans in World War II knew they had to "face the music" so to speak when all was said and done...Our time as a nation will come no matter how much people try to hold back the truth...and that will be a sad day for this nation and its people.

[tk2kewl]

52. were the redacted portions of the WH's appeal released?

[cyberpj]

55. Yes. Here:

The ACLU today also released previously redacted government documents, including declarations by General Richard Myers, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and Ronald Schlicher, former Deputy Assistant Secretary and Coordinator for Iraq in the Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs of the Department of State, in which they argue that the photographs and videos should not be made public. General Myers also argues that "the democratic idea of public accountability... is misunderstood in other parts of the world."

A web feature about the case, including PDFs of the documents released by the government, is online at www.aclu.org/torturefoia.

The newly released version of a declaration by Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Richard Myers, is available online at: www.aclu.org/International/International.cfm?ID=18978&c=36 and www.aclu.org/International/International.cfm?ID=18975&c=36.

The newly released version of a declaration by former Deputy Assistant Secretary and Coordinator for Iraq in the Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs of the Department of State Ronald Schlicher declaration is available online at: www.aclu.org/International/International.cfm?ID=18968&c=36.

[cyberpj]

53. Activist Judges - Now letting The Pentagon run USA. Anyone surprised?

Maybe Lindy England's lawyer can demand them for her trial.

[cyberpj]

54. The most important part of the article:

Not sure what the "it" is here - anyone?

The judge said he recognized the pictures might be useful to the public as it answers questions about the prison scandal, including whether those in command knew about the abuse and how extensive it was.

[chomskysright]

60. Yes, indeed: the 'higher ups' are BEING PROTECTED

...and this reminds me of what is taking place re: the American Psychological Association w/ their BSCT team psychologists who are part of APA, one Dr. Banks (psychologist who is head of PsyOps) who was on the PENS committee overseeing match-up between BSCT team psychologists beahviors re: interrogation guidance and APA Code of Ethics.

WHO IS BEING PROTECTED HERE? ITS NOT THE TROOPS, YOU CAN BET. They don't give a fuck about the troops: they are FODDER and the General puts forward an argument that is phrased so as to look for the conscience of the judge when in fact it is the HIGHER UPS that are being protected.

[gratuitous]

56. What?

Sorry Judge Hellerstein, but those photos and videos show ME what MY tax dollars are paying for in Iraq. I bought 'em, I want to see 'em. And if they remain in the realm of rumor and gossip, then we run an even bigger risk from what our enemies can say about us, which could easily be worse than anything in this photographic record. Denying the problem won't make it go away.

This judge could stand to do a little growing up, methinks.

[cyberpj]

57. THIS FROM ACLU:

snip...
Included in papers unsealed today is General Myers' argument that the photographs must be withheld because "our democratic idea of public accountability -- the airing of misdeeds by government officials and employees in order to hold government to the highest standards of conduct -- is an idea that is misunderstood in other parts of the world."

In response, the ACLU's Romero said the government's conduct in this litigation "suggests that some senior U.S. officials are merely trying to cover up the failure of the military leadership. Indeed, these images are a critical component in the quest for public accountability."

The legal papers released today also demonstrate the government's continued failure to acknowledge that abuse of prisoners was widespread, and not limited to Abu Ghraib.

For instance, General Myers' declaration states that the images at issue concern the "isolated activity by one military unit," and could be used to characterize detainee abuse as being "more widespread than it was." Documents obtained as a result of the ACLU's FOIA request provide overwhelming evidence that the abuse of prisoners was not confined to Abu Ghraib but was widespread and systemic. These documents are available online at www.aclu.org/torturefoia.

http://www.aclu.org/International/International.cfm?ID=18979&c=36

[chomskysright]

58. impaired judgment: fewer dead people overall if OUT NOW...than

if we do not blow this mess up using every means possible NOW.
BRING ON THE PICTURES.

[dpbrown]

59. Then why did Gonzales authorize torture?

These hypocrites don't deserve to have their dastardly dealings hidden from public view.

[Trevelyan]

61. The photos must exist in copies somewhere. When Darby released the photos

to the press after the military refused to do anything, he must have kept a copy to protect himself.

Seymour Hersh when he wrote about these photos and the shrieks of children being sodomized also wrote about a mother who had contacted him who was concerned for her daughter who had been at Abu Ghraib when this was taking place.

The daughter started getting more and more black tatoos and then left her husband, and I think her child, moved to another city and refused to have anything to do with her family.

Her mother, after her daughter refused to talk to her when she came to visit, got the landlord to let her in and she looked on her daughters computer that the mother had bought for her daughter to watch movies when she was stationed in Iraq.

Hersh said that the mother saw the pictures which no mother should see or daughter either. Apparently the daughter was so haunted by what happened that she had the photos on her computer with easy access.

This is very puzzling, esp. when the police who beat up those teenagers at the Rave in Utah, though they went after those with camcorders first, there was one video that is now ciculating on line of the police coming in with riot gear and the fact that people were having fun, had all their permits in order and many girls were singled out by the police for savage beatings and some of it is on tape along with the use of tasers.

Police Raid Outdoor Music Event

Numerous accounts from attendees of an outdoor electronic music event in Utah county indicate excessive force used by Sherrif and SWAT officers. A video has surfaced depicting officers dressed in full military fatigues raiding the main stage of the event. Local news stations side with police in initial reports.

Attendees of the outdoor electronic music event dubbed "Versus II" taking place the evening of Saturday, August 20th in the Diamond Fork area of Spanish Fork Canyon in Utah County arrived at the event with confidence that the concert organizers had obtained the proper permits and legal clearance to hold the event.

Personal accounts available at the local electronic community websiteutrave.org paint a scene of police brutality and mayhem, many accounts bearing eyewitness to the forceful arrest of young girls.

http://utah.indymedia.org/news/2005/08/11330.php

[cyberpj]

63. JUDGE HELLERSTEINS CONTACT INFO HERE:

Shall we let him hear some of OUR opinions?

Here's one I thought was very appropriate:
Poll_Blind
That judge needs to meet with some holocaust survivors...
Let him speak with them for an hour or two about the importance of bringing systematic atrocities to the attention of the public.

Hon. Alvin K. HELLERSTEIN
United States District Judge

Daniel Patrick Moynihan United States Courthouse
500 Pearl Street, Room 1050
New York, New York 10007-1312
[phone]

Courtroom 14D
Deputy [phone]

Individual Practices - 8/29/05

http://www.nysd.uscourts.gov/judges/USDJ/hellerstein.htm

[LibertyorDeath]

64. Yes you can you Coward!!!

"How can I ignore the expert opinion of General Myers, who is
concerned with the safety of his troops?" the judge asked. "I can't
substitute my opinion for the opinion of General Myers."

Did you take an oath to uphold the law.

Fucker!

[yellowcanine]

65. Hey Your Honor! I have a novel idea. How about just following the law?

Cut out the hand wringing and do the right thing.

[Gregorian]

66. FAX COMMENTS TO JUDGE HALLERSTEIN. HERE'S THE FAX NUMBER.

There are several threads on this. So I'm posting this again. The judge's secretary gave me this number, and made it clear they would be receptive to public comments. But they will only take faxes. No email. No phone messages.

Judge Alvin K. Hellerstein's FAX [phone]