Be ruthless with looters, police and National Guard told

[NNN0LHI]

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article309222.ece

Some people seized on the chaos caused by Hurricane Katrina to add to it by looting abandoned homes and stores while law enforcement agencies were busy trying to help those struck by the storm.

Reports from several devastated communities said police had already arrested people for looting and 1,600 members of the Mississippi National Guard were being deployed, in part, to deter thieves. CNN showed gangs of looters in New Orleans trying to break into buildings.

A local television channel said police with automatic weapons were called to a grocery store after looters went on the rampage, pulling apart a cash dispenser and taking groceries. The store was ransacked. snip

Haley Barbour, the Governor of Mississippi, said: "I have instructed the Highway Patrol and the National Guard to treat looters ruthlessly. Looting will not be tolerated and rules of engagement will be as aggressive as the law allows."

[LisaL]

1. Now, that is going to look just like downtown Baghdad.

:sarcasm:

[Delphinus]

3. Ooh,

maybe that'll get chimpy's attention.

[Francine Frensky]

72. NOBODY carrying diapers, batteries, or bottled water

better be shot.

[RethugAssKicker]

2. I agree.. these people are scum

[atreides1]

6. Which people

The looters or the people who might very well shoot them down like dogs.

So when the police shoot and kill a kid, then you're okay with that,
right?

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[endarkenment]

55. Ah they are cockroaches that need to be ground into the pavement.

Of course. They aren't human are they?

An essential part of the indoctrination necessary for totalitarianism is to convert the chosen victim population into inhuman 'others' for whom the normal rules do not apply.

Take a few hours and watch Hotel Rwanda and then get back to me about how 'looters' are 'cockroaches'.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[endarkenment]

60. welcome to DU!

Enjoy your stay :-)

[I concur]

67. I suggest you re-watch Hotel Rwanda because there's no comparison

To Rwandan Tutsis escaping Hutu genocide. The Tutsis ("cockroaches") weren't looting...the Hutus who hurled that invective were! I suppose your loose definitions should lump Holocaust victims with those of Katrina?
Incidentally, I have relatives in Plaquemines Parish who depend on a small Mom & Pop bait and tackle store for their livlihood. It isn't much but it is all they have and I am goddammed mad that (No. 1) it is probably under water now and (No. 2) what isn't underwater has probably been looted!

[endarkenment]

81. The comparison is to the use of the objectification of the other

as inhuman so that they may be killed without compassion or mercy.

"Looters" are "cockroaches" just as Tutsi were "cockroaches" and Jews were "vermin".

The flood victims are human beings. Some of them are taking stuff that doesn't belong to them. Some are taking stuff that doesn't belong to them because they need to eat and some are just taking stuff. I don't really care: in neither situation do they deserve to be dealt with ruthlessly, treated like cockroaches, shot and killed. I'm sorry about your relative's store - but its just stuff and stuff can be replaced. Lives cannot be replaced. I'm more sorry that you don't understand that.

[I concur]

88. Really?

You state: "The flood victims are human beings. Some of them are taking stuff that doesn't belong to them. Some are taking stuff that doesn't belong to them because they need to eat and some are just taking stuff. I don't really care: in neither situation do they deserve to be dealt with ruthlessly, treated like cockroaches, shot and killed. I'm sorry about your relative's store - but its just stuff and stuff can be replaced. Lives cannot be replaced. I'm more sorry that you don't understand that."

I realize they are human beings but that does not excuse looting...and stealing food stuffs for consumption has long since passed because the food has long been contaminated by the polluted water. Have you even been following the news? Armed gangs (courtesy of looted guns stores) are now ruling N.O. and helicopters trying to rescue people are being fired upon...so much for your "human beings"! Also, my relatives' stuff was not only "stuff" but it represented more than 20 years of hard work. I suppose you can never understand that or my anger at the looters, so let me give you an analogy to your flippant dismissal of crime: Suppose someone raped your wife or girlfriend and I told you "I'm sorry about your partner's plight, but its just vagina"?

[NorthernSpy]

121. buh-bye

.

[JustSayNO 2 Sheeples]

77. Peace?

I thought the bulk of the members here were for peace? Peace comes in many forms. Peace can also mean that I am free from criminals. Free from losing my property just because somebody else wants it. Peace from having to remain locked in my home because armed thugs roam the streets.

I believe any criminal does not deserve the protection which you want to give them. These looters aren't after food and water. They are dancing in the streets, showing off the loot that they are stealing.

Consider this: These people are mobile enough to go steal stereos. TVs, designer sneakers. Instead of mobilizing their bodies in the direction of help, they are partying in the streets at all the "free stuff". These people do not deserve my concern when there are so many people who are standing on their roofs, just asking for help.

Still not convinced? Wait until more of the story comes out and you begin to learn of the murders that are taking place right now within the city. And it's not over bottled water, those murders are being committed for crap like TVs and tennis shoes. But I guess that will be okay too.

[OrwellwasRight]

94. Thoughtful post, JustSayNO.

I agree. I think those who have the means and ability to help others but instead use their blessings to enrich themselves are simply evil.

Welcome to DU. :hi:

[endarkenment]

9. yeah people taking diapers and food need to be shot.

get a clue.

[OrwellwasRight]

21. Get a clue?

I was in So Cal during the Rodney King riots and after the fires in San Diego when selfish, greedy pigs drove into burned out neighborhoods and stole anything that had survived from people's homes while the people who lived there, following police and fire dept orders, had evacuated. One of these neighborhoods is terribly poor. The people live in somewhat ramshackle homes and the kids come to school with messed up teeth b/c the families don't have money for dental care. So they got home to burned out, empty homes where everything of value had been stolen.

That is evil, pure and simple.

There is no excuse for looting. It is wrong and indefensible.

Making sure you family can eat and your baby does not have to lie in filth is not looting; stealing guns, nikes, tvs, and cash registers or anything from anybody's home is looting and there is absolutely no excuse. If you need necessities, you can always leave cash in the register or a note on how you can be reached to pay for something.

That is citizenship. Straight up stealing is not citizenship, and it is not a civil form of protest.

As for being ripped off by Bushco at the gas pump and elsewhere, two wrongs do not make a right, and the folks being hurt by looters (as it was in the King riots and the San Diego fires) are rarely the people who at whom viciousness ought to be directed because they are not the decision makers who created our inequitable system.

All that said, I doubt that anyone here is advocating that people taking food and diapers need to be shot. Obviously, that would be even more wrong than the looting itself.

There are certainly many levels of dealing with people harshly that do not involve killing people. For instance, arresting them, citing and releasing, using looting laws (which might have harsher punishments than regular theft) against them. Those are all ways to deal with people harshly, and I would support that.

It is when we say that stealing is cool or justified becuase Bush is a jerk that we condone, promote, and extend such anti-social behavior (which is antithetical to the creation of a society in which we treat each other with love and respect). Would Gandhi or MLK, Jr. have advocated looting?

[Redstone]

27. Bravo. Excellent post. People should NOT be expected to starve,

but taking anything besides food (and diapers and medicine) that they simply CANNOT get otherwise is pure thuggery.

Redstone

[OrwellwasRight]

43. Thanks! nt.

:hi:

[endarkenment]

28. Oh no excuse - ever?

So for example when you are stranded in a flooded city with no food and children in diapers and the stores in your area are all closed and/or flooded out - there is no excuse for taking diapers or food? Such people should be shot?

[OrwellwasRight]

37. Try reading the post!

I said that taking food and diapers is NOT looting. I also said that shooting and killing is not the answer.

Also, if you read the original story in the link, it talks about increasing jail space for thieves.

The redneck Barbour's use of the word "ruthless" aside, the law does NOT call for killing thieves. Law enforcement only has authority to kill to protect lives, not property. It would be evil and irresponsible to do otherwise. And I did not advocate that.

[endarkenment]

44. Fine I read your post.

it was entirely unclear to me that your intention was not to support Barbour's 'shoot em all' and the other poster's 'kill the scum'. You have now made clear that you too think that this is nonsense. Good.

[leesa]

127. Whaaa??? The jails are closed and people are dying of thirst and hunger

If they don't steal this stuff they may die. Who are you to decide what's essential? Who the hell cares if they haul off a TV that will be abandoned somewhere anyway. Putting people in jail...hell of a solution!

How about getting them what they need to survive.

[NorthernSpy]

29. want your property rights respected?

Don't leave anyone stuck in the path of a category 5 hurricane, just 'cause evacuations "cost too much".

That "good citizenship' thing cuts both ways, friend.

[OrwellwasRight]

40. I'm not talking about "my" property rights.

I don't even own property. Nor was I responsible for the evacuaiton procedures. Nor did I single-handedly cause the global climate change that has certianly contributed to increasingly violent nature of storms over the past decade.

Again, two wrongs don't make a right. No one should have been left behind in New Orleans, but just because they were does not mean it is time for a new stereo courtesy of Bob's Stereo World.

What I am saying is this: just becuase there is a major tragedy is no reason to go to Wal-Mart and do your back to school shopping for free or to loot jewelry boxes in evacauted folks' bedrooms.

If you cannot agree with that, oh well.

[NorthernSpy]

49. listen, you...

My own aunt is in New Orleans, and we have no idea whether she's alive or dead. She might have remained in her house out of fear of losing her belongings to thieves.

You see, when the authorities refuse to conduct a real evacuation (those cost money, you know!), working class people often remain behind precisely because they fear the uncompensated loss of all they have. This endangers their lives, but they stay in their homes anyway because they feel they have no choice. The working class and the poor are the people who by far lose the most when it comes to looting -- not your (almost certainly insured) "Bob's Stereo World".

Given all that, it pisses me the hell off to listen to all this boohooing over the suposedly turrible suffering of WalMart and the like. This looting is happening because the people were not evacuated. And they weren't evacuated because the affluent and the well-insured and whoever else is important enough for the authorities to take seriously didn't think it would be worth it.

What I am saying is this: just becuase there is a major tragedy is no reason to go to Wal-Mart and do your back to school shopping for free or to loot jewelry boxes in evacauted folks' bedrooms.

If you cannot agree with that, oh well.

Well, you know just what you can do with that. And I really would rather that the authorities concentrated on finding my aunt, instead of defending the sanctity of gold necklaces and color teevees.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

51. we've tangled in the past, but I completely agree

[OrwellwasRight]

68. Listen, you...

I am not sure why your rage at inadequate response procedures is directed at me. I am not "an authority" and I am not defending their approach to evacuation. I wasn't involved with their planning, didn't advocate it, don't support it.

It is just one more example of what is wrong with this country that we leave the poor, elderly, sickly, and otherwise already underprivileged to fend for themselves as we do in just about every other situation. There is no excuse for that and I am not making any.

And I also never said the authorities should not find people. I hope that your aunt is OK, as I hope for others who have been left behind.

I can understand and appreciate the stress that you are under at the moment, as are many of us here on DU. I believe that human life is more important than anything else. If you think I implied otherwise, then my apologies. My posts have not been intended to mean any such thing. But if it makes you feel better to knock down arguments that I never made, continue to do so.

Regardless of any of the above, stealing to enrich oneself is still stealing, and is not justified. I can't think of any system of ethics or morals that would support the equation "My government (X) is irresponsible and misguided, therefore I will steal from a random person/entity (Y) simply because I can." Two wrongs still don't make a right regardless of how much you and I both hate Wal-Mart.

I'm not sure what you mean by "you know just what you can do with that." If you are saying that you disagree with me, and you think that taking advantage of the death, tragedy, and destruction that have befallen an entire region is an excuse to steal for the sake of stealing, I think that is sad.

I will continue to disagree with that as I continue to hope for the survival of all the missing (including your aunt).

[The Stranger]

38. Yes, get a clue.

Most of these looters live in complete economic devastation. The fact that they take from others in complete economic devastation does not change this.

And calling it "evil" is moronic.

[OrwellwasRight]

42. OK, I hope you feel that way

when someone steals from what is left of your 78 year old mother's home.

"Evil" is as evil does. Taking the tragedy, destruction, and death that have befallen an area and to use it as an excuse for immoral, illegal, and anti-social behavior is simply self-serving.

It is no basis upon which to build a moral society or a future community.

[Yupster]

83. If someone steals jewelry from an empty home,

it is not the fault of Bush, Blanco, Global Warming or Walmart.

We each have ur own judgement and morality.

Most of us would pass an empty house and not steal jewelry from it.

The few who take advantage of that situation are entirely responsible for their own moral failings, and criminal behavior.

Even in the midst of such tragedy, you can keep to moral standards, and I bet most people do.

[OrwellwasRight]

93. I didn't blame it on any of those things.

And I said tragedy is no excuse to abandon moral standards. My entire posts have been about how there is no excuse for looting--using a crisis to enrich oneself.

I do keep to my moral standards and I am not advocating otherwise, but thank you for the lecture.

[President Kerry]

85. The law of the gun, eh? The one with the gun survives...

What you forget is that ONE HUNDRED PERCENT of NO is now in total economic devastation. Looters are thugs and need be put in JAIL. PERIOD. There are people that don't resort to looting. Vast majority of them.

[RageFist]

119. So stealing from other small business owners

who live in the SAME FUCKING AREA is justified? I call bullshit! (I am not sad for wal-mart I might add)

[northzax]

31. ahem

(snip)A local television channel said police with automatic weapons were called to a grocery store after looters went on the rampage, pulling apart a cash dispenser and taking groceries. The store was ransacked. snip(/snip)

how bout the people taking ATMs?

[endarkenment]

34. sure - there is robbery and there is necessity

these are two separate things yet both of them qualify as looting. When the state says 'shoot all the looters' and posters say 'yeah kill the scum' I'm thinking:

1) looters == poor black people
2) is it fascism yet?

Some looting in the situation in New Orleans is justified by neccessity and is not criminal. Some looting is simple criminal behavior. In neither case is 'shoot all the looters' justified.

[northzax]

50. no, they don't

looting, by definition, involves taking spoils for personal profit. Taking food to survive is not looting, BY VERY DEFINITION.


the reason that it may make sense to shoot looters (those obviously out for personal profit) is that the act of looting takes needed resources away from search and rescue efforts. Where property is involved, and there are desperate mobs of people, there will invariably be violence between citizens. Say you're just trying to get diapers for your baby, and some guy with a gun comes and robs you, or you get caught in the crossfire over a Rolex. Don't you deserve the same protection as every other citizen? Or are you willing to condemn entire sections of New Orleans to mob rule, where the violent minority controls the entire population? that's what happens during looting, it's what happened in Watts, it's what happened in the 60's riots, it's what happens in every desperate situation. Read your William Golding, the few who are willing to use violence in pursuit of power will rule over the majority who aren't. Allowing looting and the subsequent violence to flourish simply encourages more and therefore endangers the lives of more people. So if you wing a few people, maybe it stops. Do you think the Red Cross is going to send people into a violent environment? not as likely, is it?

I'm not saying that is the appropriate solution, I don't think it is, until it gets too far out of hand, but it's the logic behind it, when all hell breaks loose.

[gorbal]

78. So you would deal death that quickly?

How is one going to tell if someone is "out for personal profit"? If they start shooting looters they will be shooting people who are just trying to survive, store owners rescuing their own goods, as well as those out for profit, so it doesn't make sense at all.

Sure there may be people stealing jeans and boom-boxes; maybe they have no dry clothes and need to know what the hell is going on. There is no way people can seperate the good from the bad quickly and accurately enough to justify killing anyone.

These people have just been through hell, the last thing they need is a bunch of yee-haws running around shooting people they "think" are looters. The police and army aren't the only ones with guns, and people get angry and get revenge in these sorts of situations. A mini war might even erupt, who knows.

[northzax]

82. and here I thought I said

that I didn't agree that the situation had reached that point.

[gorbal]

87. but you agree with the logic of it

Your logic seems to run like they "kindasortashouldatsomepointiftheyhavetomaybe."

I'm not so much replying just to you as to others who think we should shoot the looters. I have people I work with believe they should and it just amazes me. Don't mean to make you feel singled out.

[northzax]

89. some should be, probably

the guys driving around in stolen cars with AK-47's? that's just lawlessness and thuggery. Hell, even FOX admits the difference between ciminal looting and taking food and water.

It's getting worse, you know? I heard someone say that this was the inmates running the asylum, which is not fair, the inmates escaped the asylum and are running the nearby city. Who owns the night in NoLa these days?

[Yupster]

84. Looting also takes human resources

Young people who are mobile enough to loot are also mobile enough to help their neighbors.

If you were there and able to move around, wouldn't we be helping the authorities locate people and get them out of danger? Wouldn't we?

How many of us faced with such a tragedy would say "screw helping people," I can steal some x-bots?

I've just got to think that such selfish people represent a very small part of the population. I sure hope so anyway.

[northzax]

90. indeed

for every thug who thinks of looting first, there is someone helping a weaker neighbor. For everyone who is trying to profit from disaster by preying on the weak, there is someone risking their lives to help those weaker than they are. Worth remembering.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[endarkenment]

76. Your value system is duly noted. eom.

[Tomee450]

58. Ordinary people

are not taking ATM. Those engaged in that kind of activity were probably part of the criminal element before the storm. I haven't heard of any widespread breaking into ATMs. It's probably only one machine that the media keeps reporting on repeatedly. Also, the media is making it seem as if most of New Orleans is being looted when such is not the case. Most of those left in that city are struggling to survive and not looting anything. Also, I wonder why only black looters are being shown. New Orleans has a diverse population including Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, White and other racial groups. I'll bet blacks are the only people looting. Media bias is so obvious.

[northzax]

64. I saw white people apparently looting

on CNN last night. (at least there were two white people coming out of a store with garbage bags full of what looked like clothing.

I think that the white, asian and latino population largely fled the city proper, every person I have seen being rescued on TV have been black. As have everyone I have seen helping other people to escape buildings or climb onto roofs. come to think of it, I have only seen three white residents of New Orleans in the city since this started (on TV at least, plus a couple from the evac'ed jail) the people on the highway, in the superdome, and other refugees are almost all black as well. it's kinda strange.

[Igel]

106. Not 'only', just 'mostly'.

And if you believe (as a reasonable assumption)

that blacks are more poor than whites than average in N.O., and

that wealth/income level had something to do with ability to evacuate,

given that the city was predominately black, and the areas hit the hardest were even more strongly black,

wouldn't you find it suspicious if they made a point of showing mostly Latinos?

[Matariki]

39. yeah, or taking cash to get out of town

or start life over. sheesh.

[MrBenchley]

4. Let's start with those looting Americans at the gas pump

[devinsgram]

7. That is called legal looting authorized by the WH.

[saigon68]

11. Oil Thugs and Hoodlums in Charge

STRIP MINING THE WALLETS OF amerika

[chelsea0011]

8. I'm still waiting for a reason as to why when something happens

the gas at the pump, that has already been purchased, immediately goes up in price.

[RawMaterials]

26. Its simple so they can then purchase the next tanker thats

going to cost twice as much. they are just preemptively passing the cost to the consumer.

our country is one giant crack addict when it comes to oil, and the next 20-30 years are going to be one hell of a detox/withdraw.

[Patchuli]

48. Help me Exxpose Exxon's dangerous game!

http://www.exxposeexxon.com/action/radio.html

[MrBenchley]

73. You and me both....

[wtmusic]

5. You know, this is typical of our approach in Iraq

Instead of using enough manpower and meting out justice, use too few troops, and try to make up for it by blowing everyone away. Unreal.

[NNN0LHI]

17. Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out. More compassionate conservatism n/t

[Barrett808]

10. Just heard that armed gangs are roaming N.O.

They apparently looted the gun department of a WalMart.

[hnsez]

12. but its ok since they don't stock "ammo"

:argh:

[alkaline9]

15. even better...

...looters carrying empty guns will be shot on sight... lovely. This is really not looking good at all... but I'm sure we'll never know how many looters who were shot dead wound up carrying only empty guns.

[mattclearing]

18. Is anyone going to perform autopsies on floating bodies?

"Hmmm...this one seems to have small holes in it."

[northzax]

33. the law doesn't differentiate between a loaded and unloaded weapon

when used in a crime. you don't get less time for armed robbert because your gun is unloaded, who's going to stop and check?

[MidwestTransplant]

16. U sure that's not K Mart?

[karlrschneider]

25. Uh, I buy ammo at W-M all the time...

.

[bribri16]

13. One woman caught taking six pairs of shoes....needed for family in

hotel. She told the person trying to stop her that she understood that she had six pairs of shoes but she had a family staying in one of the hotels and they needed the shoes to be able to wade through streets with broken glass and nails and wood. She "we are trying to survive here." I was glad she spoke up and it wan on camera but I doubt if most of the media will show the clip with sound. FOX will probably try to label her a "low-life looter."

Screw all you who can sit back and be sanctimonious at a time like this.

[endarkenment]

36. Oh no she was black and needs to be shot.

The racism here is palpable.

[Tomee450]

63. It certainly is.

Some of the responses have been sickening. Never in a million years would I place a higher values on goods than on human life. My house could be cleaned out but I still would not want anyone shot for stealing.

[Tomee450]

62. I'm glad she spoke up, too.

People keep mentioning people taking sneakers and clothing. I guess it never occurred to them that those stealing such items may have been wearing the same, smelly clothes for days, that perhaps their shoes have been ruined from walking for miles through water waist deep. It is simply shocking to see the lack of compassion of some of the posters here. One never knows what he would do in the kind of situation the people of NO find themselves in.

[DemNoir]

14. Just remember

Black people loot, white people are just finding stuff.

[saigon68]

20. So true

That's why all you see on Faux are black looters

Especially the ones with the stolen whiskey bottles


That's what Faux wants you to believe--- Black Democrats and their ilk looting the white man's liquor store.

[underpants]

19. I wonder how many "old scores" get settled in the next few days

Just saying.

[saigon68]

22. The gang war for turf

Do a murder there now --- it will be hard to solve.

[underpants]

32. I meant everybody

Gangs cops couples friends business partners etc.

I hate to mention such a dark subject but it is really the Wild Wild West there for a few days.

[saigon68]

35. Yes, Now I see your point

In that respect a lot of old "scores" could get settled.

[merwin]

23. The military (including the national guard) isn't allowed to fire on or

take into custody any citizen, unless there is war declared in our own country. They can return fire, however :-)

[one_true_leroy]

30. nope.... remember kent state massacre?

[Arkansas Granny]

65. That just sent a chill down my spine.

[Gregorian]

24. Bush looted the treasury. Let's start with him first.

This is petty looting in New Orleans.
The real tragedy is what this administration looted.
Why can't the media put things in perspective.




Damnit DU, I can't pry myself away from you. You are great!

[ernstbass]

41. There was a legal expert on tv last night

talkng about he law of necessity and saying that any looting for necessities would not be prosecuted. I certanly hope that is the case.

[I concur]

71. but there are no necessities any longer.

A MANDATORY evacuation has been declared for the city. There is no excuse for anyone remaining behind ... the only remaining people are looters or (in rare incidences) persons of mental illness and those who haven't gotten the word.

[michaelwb]

100. Missing the point

A MANDATORY evacuation has been declared for the city. There is no excuse for anyone remaining behind ... the only remaining people are looters or (in rare incidences) persons of mental illness and those who haven't gotten the word.

It takes money to evacuate. Planes cost money, buses cost money, trains cost money, you have to have money for a car. You have to have money to live somewhere else once you get there.

What do you think the poor would do hop a private jet to their Aspen home for a couple of months?

[KittyWampus]

45. Looting 1st Step In Abandonment Of Law & Order... And Escalating Violence

Will DU'ers be making excuses if men start taking their rage out on women one way or other?

[aikoaiko]

122. looting, pillaging, and yes, now raping and murdering

lawlessness breeds lawlessness. As i was sitting watching the news, more and more of the reports are of thugs exploiting the helplessness of survivors.

send in the troops along with the supplies.

[Dogmudgeon]

46. There would be no looting if there was a sufficient FEMA response

However, "somebody" looted FEMA for his recreational war. Therefore, FEMA could not respond. It didn't have the ability to respond.

Emergency, disaster, and flood preparedness in New Orleans were all bled pale in the past few years. If they had been provisioned well enough to cope with even a small hurricane, there would be MUCH less looting.

You think the looting is bad? Okay, it sure isn't good. But heads are going to roll over this thing. There will be several investigations. As bad as the disaster was, there is no reason why the Gulf Coast FEMA units should have been neglected and deactivated.

--p!

[aikoaiko]

86. virtual anonymity and unaccountability causes looting

its almost inevitable.

See the Zimbardo studies on deindividuation from the late 1960 and early 1970s.

[anotherdrew]

52. why be ruthless? no one is going back in there to pick up their stock

it's fair game to anyone stuck in there as far as I'm concerned.

How DARE the media call people taking food from a ruined grocery store
"looters" What the hell are they supposed to do? sit down and starve to death with food that will only being going to waste a few feet away? And ya know, if someone needs a new pair of shoes, so what? is nike gonna swim in and collect the stock?

This is just gonna be an excuse to shoot poor people.

[soda]

54. question?

Wont peoples business insurance cover the loss of all stock? i guess the big store owners got out in time and are not there to open up shop, why not just give it away as in instant disaster relief

[NorthernSpy]

61. yes: if the looters don't take that stuff, Lake Pontchartrain will

New Orleans is expected to fill completely with water and oil and mud and assorted crap. Pretty much all of this merchandise that has been defended here with such heartfelt vehemence will indeed disappear under the waves if people don't take it now. Insurance claims will be filed on it, no matter what happens.

It really slays me how swiping an otherwise-doomed iPod is immoral and shameful, but choosing to leave the poor in the path of a devastating hurricane (evacuations cost money!) is merely 'imperfect judgement'.

[anotherdrew]

66. that's a good point too

I hope to hell no over zelous FOX reporters start shooting at people.

[aikoaiko]

111. the looters will turn on themselves and others if order isn't restored.

of course a lot of people would see this as a self-correcting problem, but I don't. I think there are a small group of people doing the looting and when they run out of stores, then they'll go after the good people who are just trying to survive and not hurt anyone else.

[NorthernSpy]

115. oh, I'm sure they will

In the beginning, people supply themselves with water, food, and other immediate necessities. Later, they begin to take things of value. Because these things can be traded, (or later sold or pawned) for necessities, this is also part of an attempt to survive.

However, being fearless and insensitive to suffering, habitual criminals thrive in war zones and disaster areas. Such predators consider the current crisis a great opportunity. With fewer chances to loot stores, the criminal element will likely begin robbing the survivors. This is one side effect of controlling looting. For the survivors, the availability of goods from the flooded stores provides them a measure of safety (in more ways than one). Take that away, and...


:think:

[defiant1]

53. Sheesh....

Typical idiot thinking.

Since we are too lazy to determine who is looting necessities and who isn't, we will just shoot them all.

[Darranar]

57. Desperate people act desperately...

The solution is not to be "ruthless" towards them, but rather to ensure that no one is desperate.

Ensuring that poor and working class people can afford to get out of the way when these catastrophes happen is a start.

[arikara]

59. My husband was watching it unfold last night

he said that a man was shot for taking 2 cans of olive oil.

I just can't watch it. It hurts too much seeing those poor people aimlessly wade through the water. If they need clothing or food or whatever, then they should be able to use it if its there. Its wrecked and the stores can't sell it anyhow.

[aikoaiko]

69. "Looters will be Shot"

After major catastrophes like the one in NOLA, you often sees signs that say "looters will be shot" or people say that looters should be shot.

But if you don't live in a state where defense of property provides legal justification for lethal force (i.e., shooting a looter), does existing in an declared state of emergency somehow provide that protection?

Does anyone know if LA is a state that allows lethal force for the protection of property by non-Law Enforcement types?

(This is not a request for legal advice -- only a request for discussion about what we know about this common occurence following disasters.)

[Zhade]

74. Why am I suddenly reminded of Les Miserables?

"Drop the loaf or I shoot!"

(Yeah, there is real scummy looting going on, but for fuck's sake, there really are starving people there.)

[nolabels]

75. Why like after all everybody knows material goods are more important......

.........than human life. Like after all the Bozos first priority in the invasion of Iraq was to secure the oil fields. I may have to live in a material world but I refuse to live in the morality of it. Anybody that thinks un-armed (so called) looters should be shot on site is as sick as GWB as far as I am concerned.

[Seabiscuit]

79. "as aggressive as the law allows" does not equate with "ruthlessly".

It seems like they're talking about shooting looters. The law doesn't allow them to kill people committing minor theft crimes.

[William Bloode]

80. With this statement and knowing the situation...

"Haley Barbour, the Governor of Mississippi, said: I have instructed the Highway Patrol and the National Guard to treat looters ruthlessly. Looting will not be tolerated and rules of engagement will be as aggressive as the law allows."

I hope they shoot back and defend themselves from this order. If i had been abandoned to a swirling churning putrid hell. Then not only denied my only means of survival, but threated with violence for my attempt at furthering my life span, i would sure have no problem loading a few up with a nice hot lead injection.

For those who don't know evacuation is going to take time. I am sure the vast majority want to leave but cannot. Add that to the fact there is no way to get in sufficient supplies, it's a do what you have to to survive.

Property in replaceable lives are not. There is no excuse to place a higher value on material objects of greed than someones life. Any who do not agree, should be dropped into NO and forced to try and exist in the torn wretched aftermath.

[northzax]

92. let me get this straight

you are advocating the killing of police and national guard members? I find it interesting that 'there is no excuse to place a higher value on material objects of greed than someones life" but if you're the one doing the looting, then your right to loot supercedes the rights of police and national guardsmen to live? cause that's what you're saying. If someone tries to stop the looting, shoot back? really?

[William Bloode]

98. Yup thats exactly what i'm saying.

If i have to get shot at, doing what i have to do to help my family survive. Very much yes i would have no problem what so ever putting a bullet in a man in blue, or green. And yes to me and mine my right to live by nature supercedes theirs. Again i have no compunction killing anyone who would try to use force to prevent me to do what needed for me and mine to survive.

Clear enough?

[northzax]

99. perfectly clear

don't get between William and his looting.

[William Bloode]

101. Glad you got the message.

If you call foraging food, water, medical supplies, maybe cooking utinsels like say a Colman stove and gas looting so be it.

[northzax]

103. since that isn't looting, by definition

no, I don't. Looting involves spoils for personal profit. Basic neccesities, in a disaster situation are normally excepted. But really, how many rolexes (roli?) are actually 'neccesary'?

[William Bloode]

104. You seem to be intent on putting words in my mouth.

Who said anything about Rolexes?!?!?!?! I said what me and mine would need to survive, i don't need a Rolex or anythin else like that to live.

[northzax]

105. and you seem eager to squirm out of it

I asked "so don't get between William and his looting." and you said "yup."

since looting, by very definition does not include substinence needed for survival, you said you were in favour of shooting police and national guardsmen who got between you and looting.

now, if you were misusing the word 'looting', I understand, it's been going around.

[NorthernSpy]

112. How many Rolexes are necessary? Ask the people being turned away...

... from shelter and help.

I'm talking about people like this woman, who made it to Houston with her children and their pet dog -- only to find that there is no room at the inn. I guess that this family -- and thousands like them -- are just shit outta luck right about now. If she HAD carried a Rolex out of the flood zone, she could have sold it or pawned it. And those kids could have had a roof over their heads this very minute.

Really, some of you seem to think that these people should all obligingly drop dead at the exact spot where your desire to help ends. I suppose that would flatter this Property Uber Alles ideology that some of you spout. But even you all should be able to understand why many of the desperate don't seem inclined to give up their grip on life so easily as that.

[rocktivity]

91. If the police and NG can enter and leave at will

They should be taking everyone they can with them--not just the looters. Do you have to commit a crime in order to be rescued?

:headbang:
rocknation

[Tesibria]

95. "Looting" v. "Finding"

Consider:


black people "loot"
http://news.yahoo.com/photo/050830/480/ladm10208301530


whereas white people "find"
http://news.yahoo.com/photo/050830/photos_ts_afp/050830071810_shxwaoma_photo1

[Parkerfur]

97. Unbelievable

That is so ridiculous... The racism that still exists in our public media. Ridiculous ! I am also so sick of the looting getting all of the news. I honestly think the more important news story would be the people just trying to survive. Fox News won't shut up about the looters... enough already... like any of the things that are taking are going to be any good in a few days anyways... those TV are most likely damaged... the food will spoil and anything else at Walmart isn't really worth that much money anyways !

[Stockholm]

96. Looting IS a class issue

n/t

[slackmaster]

108. Yes indeed

Opportunistic looters who take things they don't need are the lowest class of all.

[NorthernSpy]

117. if they stop the looting, then criminals will rob more of the survivors

And I don't think my aunt has any way to defend herself from predators.

Seriously, I'm prepared to accept pretty much anything that helps people get out alive. The plight of WalMart television sets sings pretty small at the moment.

[Stockholm]

123. and of course a race issue

Why did the situation develop as it has in NO? Why was not the same pattern visible in Thailand or Indonesia?

Your comment illustrate your mental laziness and perhaps a hint of racism.

[NorthernSpy]

124. actually, there WAS looting after the tsunami!

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2004_12_29_indexarch.php#110433558973654424

Police dispatched to stop post-tsunami looting in Thailand; Malaysia postpones mass deportation of illegals
Bernard Hibbitts at 10:42 AM ET


Authorities in Thailand have dispatched hundreds of additional police to coastal provinces hardest hit by Sunday's tsunami in an effort to stem an apparent tide of looting. Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra has issued stern warnings to would-be looters, and several arrests have already been made. Well-off Western tourists killed and otherwise affected by the disaster - now said to have killed over 75,000 people, including some 2000 in Thailand - left behind many personal belongings, and hotels and resorts where they stayed are largely unoccupied at this point.

http://gbgm-umc.org/umcor/05/srilankachurchesworried.cfm

Sri Lanka Churches Worried about Looting in Tsunami-hit Areas
by Anto Akkara
Posted: January 5, 2005

Thrissur, India, 4 January (ENI)--The National Christian Council of Sri Lanka on Tuesday decried looting in areas devastated by the tsunami that have led to the death of some 150,000 people in the Indian Ocean rim, a toll still climbing.

The grouping of eight major Protestant churches in the island nation expressed "deepest sympathies" to families hit by the 26 December tidal wave surges but it denounced attempts "to loot and plunder" possessions of those caught in one of the world's worst natural disasters.

Referring to the looters, the Sri Lanka church council said: "We appeal to them to kindly desist from such dastardly conduct and join with the several who are helping those in need," as it urged more church volunteers and others to join in the relief work.

The criticism came after reports that thugs were looting homes of some tsunami victims and rapists were preying on homeless survivors.

"We have received reports of incidents of rape, gang rape, molestation and physical abuse of women and girls in the course of unsupervised rescue operations," the Women and Media Collective group in Sri Lanka was quoted saying by the Reuters news agency.

http://www.yuyu.net/burmanet2-l/archive/0725.html

Burma Related News - Jan 07, 2005.

Friday January 7, 8:01 PM
Thailand deporting hundreds of Burmese accused of tsunami looting

(AP) - More than 500 migrant workers from Myanmar are being deported for
allegedly looting tsunami-damaged buildings in Thailand's hard-hit Phang Nga
province, police said Friday.

"We have already rounded up more than 500 on Friday, and we will be
deploying more police officers to guard areas hit by the tsunami after we
learned that an army of Burmese workers are on a stealing spree there,"
police Maj. Vachara Sangvorayothin said.

The detainees are to be deported via Victoria Point to their homeland, he
said.

More than 1 million Burmese are working as low-paid laborers in Thailand.
Thousands commute across the border along Thailand's Ranong province, many
working in fisheries, farming and construction.

Phang Nga also borders Myanmar, which is also known as Burma.

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/8875

Wednesday, January 19, 2005
Looting Follows Tsunami’s Rampage
Posted by James Joyner at 08:24

After Tsunami's Rampage, Looters' Market Is on a Roll (NYT)

Business is coming back to Banda Aceh, a city hit hard by the tsunami, and not all of it fits into neat moral boxes. On Diponegoro Street, at what was once the commercial heart of this city, a muddy man named Husnaidi, 30, picked through the debris ejected from the shops first by the tsunami and then by the looters. He knew that what he took - mostly bits of metal and plastic he could sell as scrap - was not his. But he said he had no choice in order to survive after the wave carried away his home, his wife, his only child. "If I could not collect these things, I don't know what I would do," he said.

Down the street, a merchant worked to empty his clothing shop of everything that was salvageable, before the looters finished the job for him. He was only partly sympathetic. "The owners may still be alive," said the merchant, Nasruddin, 28, who like many people here has only one name. "Why are people looting? Just because they don't have a home doesn't give them the right to steal."

The wave that changed so much here has also changed economic life, and in complicated ways. Scrap dealers are thriving, as people rifle through rubble often only just before bulldozers remove the mucky debris forever. A market stall in the devastated city of Meulaboh, south of here, sells scrounged household goods like pots and pans. Landlords are demanding wildly inflated rents from the rich army of foreign aid workers and journalists.


***

Such moral difficulties here these days were on display at a roadside scrap shop not far from the police station. A man named Sulaiman, 39, who said he lost 7 of his 13 immediate relatives, including his mother and several siblings, offered a scrap dealer an iron gate that he said once protected his motorcycle repair shop. Mr. Sulaiman said he would never pick up something that was not his. "It shouldn't be forgiven," he said. "We have already been through a disaster, and people are making another disaster" by selling other people's property, he said. The scrap dealer, Ibrahim, offering about $7 for the gate, chimed in. "It's forbidden," he said, using a word that connotes a sin against Islam.

And be sure to check out:
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Tsunami_Disaster/0,,2-10-1777_1641825,00.html

That story's got it all! Looting; the chopping off of ears and fingers of corpses for jewelry; dead bodies appropriated and held for ransom from families wishing to bury their loved ones...

[Kool Kitty]

102. Are they including gas stations on the

list of looters?

[dicknbush]

107. WELL RUMMSFELD KNOWS HOW TO HANDEL LOOTERS..

REMEMBER WHAT HE SAID ABOUT LOOTERS IN BAGHDAD. DEMOCRACY CAN BE MESSY.

[slackmaster]

109. DO YOU HANDEL THEM BY SHOOTING BACH?

:dunce:

[NorthernSpy]

110. first time I've smiled in days

Thanks.

[indepat]

113. Hopefully the people of Mississippi will treat Haley Barbour ruthlessly

at the polls, maybe even consider recall.

[NorthernSpy]

114. I still want to know why there was no full evacuation before the storm

When Hurricane Ivan ("Ivan the Terrible") struck Cuba last year, Cuba had moved 1.5 million people from the danger zone before the storm hit. They succeeded in saving all those people, who would otherwise have been in terrible danger.

I want to know why we leave our poor and vulnerable to drown.

[Warren Stupidity]

118. Everyone in Cuba is poor.

So when the government decides they need to evacuate a region they can't forget about the poor people 'cause that would be everybody.

But it wasn't just the poor that got left behind in New Orleans, it was the poor, the sick, the incarcerated, the elderly shutins. It was everyone who did not have the ability to get out. As far as I know there was no attempt to move any of these people before the storm, at a time when a Cat 5 storm was headed straight for New Orleans. Remember that this was a near miss. Imagine what would have happened had the storm and the storm surge hit the city dead on.

[txaslftist]

116. Bein' from Mississippi, You'll know which ones is looters, boys.

[chomskysright]

120. experiment to see how palatable martial law is in the US?

http://www.legitgov.org/

"It was suggested to me by someone that it seems like the lack of assistance in New Orleans was meant to provoke people to extreme violence and chaos. It certainly looks that way to me... but what if new orleans is being used as a test case to see, in a real world setting, how easily a motivated, angry populace (and the military personnel forced to do the dirty work) could be subdued and controlled to create a working model of how to impose endless Martial Law throughout the country while keeping those who might resist under the lid... and those in the armed forces in line. It's a thought... because I find it absolutely incredible how inept the response has been... to the point of criminality on the part of the federal government." --c., CLG reader.

[truthbetold]

125. Killing is not the answer.

It is not the answer in Iraq. And it is NOT the answer in New Orleans.
If looters (and by the looters, I mean those taking unneccessary items such as TVs, expensive clothes, etc) are criminals, then treat them as criminals. Do not shoot them on sight. Put them in jail, where criminals belong.
Guns make people think they're God.

[Tatiana]

126. Since when do we prize property over the lives of people? n/t

[aikoaiko]

128. it might be goood to take extreme measures to stop the lootin because

after the lootiing comes the raping and murdering.

imho.

[beetbox]

129. 1492? n/t