Troops Refuse To Go Back - US soldiers on leave refuse go back to Iraq

[dArKeR]

CBS NEWS VIDEO - iVideo
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/home/main100.shtml

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As thousands in the Army get a two week break from daily fire in Iraq, more and more soldiers refuse to go back, as fellow troops can understand why, CBS News' Bob Orr reports.


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CBS NEWS VIDEO - iVideo - Guerrillas Hit Troops, Again

Iraqi guerrillas now average 22 attacks on coalition forces daily. Soldiers stay alert but could use the help of the disbanded Iraqi army, CBS News' Kimberly Dozier reports.

Ask BP for direct link!!!

[PartyPooper]

1. Uh oh!

'Explain and spin' this away Rumsfeld and Condi!

:evilfrown:

[dArKeR]

30. CBS has renamed the clip to - Hard Duty In Iraq - and new intro text

Some GIs allowed to go home for 15-day rest periods from Iraq say they don't want to go back. But nearly all of them do. Bob Orr reports on the mood among troops temporarily back in the U.S.A.

[speckledgator]

2. I saw

this one coming!

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

3. Here's a direct link

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/videoplayer/newVid/video_display_new.html?clip=/media/2003/10/19/video578827.rm&vidId=3420&title=Troops$@$Refuse$@$To$@$Go$@$Back&hitboxMLC=eveningnews

It let's you bypass the Walmart advert.

[0007]

7. Thanks for the link Billy

......and the numbers will go up.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

16. No problem

[Barrett808]

4. They do say only 8 out of 2,000 have "refused"

But more and more may go the same way.

[nostamj]

6. esp. now that they KNOW others are doing it!

I KNEW this was coming when they DUMPED troops in Baltimore.

[lebkuchen]

14. The news doesn't report those who were called to duty but never went

in the first place.

There are a lot more than "eight" of those in one state alone.

Bush can relate.



A South Korean protester ties chains around neck of his colleague, wearing a mask of U.S. President George W. Bush (news - web sites), during a rally against the possible dispatch of South Korean troops to Iraq (news - web sites), in front of the U.S. Embassy in Seoul

[acmavm]

5. This is what is going to bring the truth to the American people. BUT did

you notice what was on the right side of the webpage!!!

Look closely, they have a box under the title "Sponsored Links". It's for www.truemajority.com! They are asking "Did Bush Falsify WMD?" with a link to their website. AMAZING, SIMPLY AMAZING.

[Don_G]

8. It Looks Like Afganistan Is Far Worse

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=559229

[proud patriot]

9. Holy Cow n/t

[brainshrub]

10. I hate saying this

but did they think the army was a corporate training program? They knew the risks, they signed on anyways. It is their human right to refuse to fight...and the state is in it's rights to lock them up.

It will be intesting to see how, during the election, Bush will answer the question: "Why didn't you go to jail?"

Blessings to all soldiers who refuse to fight. Better late than never.

[BattyDem]

12. It's true, they signed up ... but

they didn't sign up for this.

I believe that every person who enlisted was willing to fight to protect and defend our country, if necessary. But they aren't defending America ... they're destroying countries and innocent lives so a fascist regime can take over the world and control all the oil. They signed up for the US Army and ended up serving the SS army! :grr:

[alwynsw]

20. It's a choice

As I've told my kids countless times, actions have consequences. You sign the contract, take the oath, and get on the bus. After that, your butt belongs to Uncle Sam. Military service is a commitment that locks enlistees, not necessarily officers into a 2,3,4, or 6 year commitment. Since it's a volunteer force, there should be no refusal by any military member to go where ordered, when ordered and perform his/her duties as ordered - provided those orders are lawful.

Before we get into the lawful order argument, an order may be considered unlawful only if it is:

1) In direct violation of U.S. Law

2) In direct contravention of a previous order given by an officer or NCO superior to the person giving the more recent order.

3) In direct contravention of U.S. military/mutual defense treaties.

The military members in question may well refuse to return to duty in Iraq or Afganistan, but they should rightfully expect penalties ranging from an Article 15,essentially a very strong written reprimand, to long term imprisonment.

By it's nature, no military can forsee all areas in which it may be called to duty and has very little, if any, say in how it is utilized, but in the U.S. all can opt out by simply refusing to enlist in the first place. If one chooses to enlist, there is a very real risk of performing duties that range from unpleasant to abhorrent in locales that share that same range.

I did my time as a volunteer during Nam. No sympathy here for any punishment those who choose to go AWOL receive. I did my time being scared shitless. It wasn't fun. I made a commitment and followed through.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

23. As a former serviceman myself,...

...I understand everything that you wrote, and agree with it up to a point. I have some questions for you:

1) Did you have to buy your own flak jacket (body armor today)?

2) Did you ever go without food and water to the point that you were forced to buy food from the locals?

3) Did you ever feel like you were totally outnumbered and surrounded by the enemy?

4) If you were wounded, and I sincerely hope that you weren't, did you ever feel like you weren't getting good treatment, or if you knew someone else who was wounded, did they ever tell you that they didn't get good treatment?

5) When your tour was about to end, did they tell you that you had been extended and had another six months to a year to serve in-country?

6) Were you older than 40 years old when you volunteered for duty?

7) If you were married and left a family behind, did you worry that they might not be able to make ends meet while you were gone?

8) Did you ever feel like your commander-in-chief had not been lawfully elected and that his orders to attack a country without provocation may not be, in fact, lawful?

[LiberalFighter]

50. On point 5

During the Korean War appeared to have extended tour duty.

At least I am assuming that based on MASH.

[Zhade]

29. Considering the whole fucking invasion was ILLEGAL, they have no duty--

except to REFUSE to fight this imperial war.

[Mountainman]

33. I was drafted and went to Vietnam. I believe there is a personal moral

decision to be made.

All you say about the legalities are true but I believe that we expected more than following of the law when we condemned the Nazi troops for following orders.

I believe that if troops feel it is morally wrong to go to Iraq they should refuse.

The Iraq war has nothing to do with defending our constitution or our freedoms. It is a war for the world according to PNAC and I would refuse if I were in the service today.

In Nam, after six months I refused to support the war directly and volunteered to build a fence for the remainder of my time.

I was a radar repairman and this soldier brought back his radar set to me to fix three times. It was radar that was used to detect troop or vehicle movements. He kept shorting out the magnetron tube so the set wouldn't work and he didn't have to go out on perimeter guard duty. He was found out after I fixed the set the third time and my officers agreed that it worked correctly and he brought it back again.

I had sympathy for the guy and others like him. There were a few other incidents. I was not permitted to tell my hometown news what I thought about the war. I could only read a scripted message they gave me that said I supported the war and President Johnson. I did not but they would not print that. I saw guys who wounded themselves on purpose. I talked to Vietnam women who had sons killed and they wanted us to do all the fighting so that they could lead their lives as farmers and merchants and not have to die for their own country.

Very few people I knew in Nam supported the war or thought it was right. Only a bunch of gung ho lifers believed in the idea that we were fighting Communism.

I had friends that wanted to hide me or take me to Canada when they found out I was getting drafted but I did not want to go to jail or leave the country. I did not make a commitment to dodge the draft but I did not believe in the war either.

[saigon68]

34. Welcome Home !!!!

This WAR will be different.

I plan to be involved in the up and coming Anti-Draft Movement.

Our War taught me never to be complacent.

Every point you made is the absolute truth

"Only a bunch of gung ho lifers believed in the idea that we were fighting Communism." and might I humbly add----

A BUNCH OF AWOL DRAFT DODGING UPPER CLASS CORPORATE RICH BABIES, WHO ARE NOW IN CHARGE OF OUR COUNTRY AND WANT TO DO IT ALL EVER AGAIN. </rant>

[Mountainman]

48. Welcome home bro

I will be in the anti draft movement also. Maybe we will run into each other. We may have been near each other in Nam. I was in Saigon for about 6 months in 67 then moved to Long Binh.

[leesa]

37. I think #1 and #3 have been going on throughout this invasion

We are violating UN treaties by invading a country who has done nothing to us. We are breaking US law by invading a country who has done nothing to us. I think the soldiers are entirely within their rights by law.

[0007]

43. Are you saying junior should be put jail?

The biggest AWOL in the history of presidents and a big liar on top of it!

[oasis]

27. They didn't sign up to fight for a PNAC duped lying sack of shit .

[atreides1]

38. No They Don't

Recruiters do not make it a habit to tell people that you might die one day.

Look at all of the commercials that they have, do they talk about combat, watching your buddy get blown apart, no.

They talk about an ARMY OF ONE, or BE ALL THAT YOU CAN BE, how AIM HIGH , and then there's IT'S NOT JUST A JOB IT'S AN ADVENTURE, and let us not forget THE MARINES ARE LOOKING FOR A FEW GOOD MEN.

Now you tell me where in all of this do they say you will be going into combat, based on any bogus intel that the civilian government idiots decide to use. You will be sacrificed so that a man who has never been successful at anything in his life can be elected.

Yes, I know that there are those who say that this should be something that enlistees realize, but with the dumbing down of this country for years what do you expect.

When I enlisted in 1978 I knew what was expected of me, but then again I'm was not some fool that bought into crap that the recruiters spewed.

So yes I would guess that some of thought that the military was acorporate training program, because like most civilianized training programs they don't tell you the whole truth.

[loudnclear]

11. A military coup in America?

Is this what it's shaping up to be?

[7th_Sephiroth]

13. honestly

thats gonna happen

[brainshrub]

15. No it won't

When you have officers who are willing to take the rap for fake letter-writeing campaigns, you know they stand firmly behind the Chimp.

The Bush family has nothing to fear from these AWOL soldiers. Look up the history for the word "decimate" to see how the Bush Crime family is going to deal with these soldiers.

It's up to us civilians to support them.

[PartyPooper]

17. And, it's up to us civilians to vote Junior's ass out of office next year!

BBV, not withstanding...we MUST oust this regime in 2004!

:dem:

[areschild]

32. Voting doesn't always work...

Especially when the election is rigged and stolen from the American people. I think the next stolen election is already in place.

[PaDUer]

47. Absolutely..

right on target..they've got everything under control..it's a shame that they're allowing the people to go through the motions of thinking they voted, but they don't want to face the BS..no good mother F*ckers!

[Minstrel Boy]

18. No, but a mutiny

of some scale is increasingly likely.

[T Bone]

19. During Vietnam

anti-war activists set up networks and hidey holes to offer sanctuary to resisters like this.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

25. Happened in Vietnam fairly frequently...here's a good commentary...

<http://www.oz.net/~vvawai/sw/sw41/myth-or-reality.html>

Scroll down until you reach the word "Aloha", and then start reading. IMHO, the troops in Afghanistan and Iraq are getting very close to mutiny at some level.

"...In Vietnam an array of mutinous activities culminated in what was called the "combat refusal." This was a form of mutiny that resembled a strike and occurred when GIs refused, disobeyed, or negotiated an order into combat.

As early as 1965 the expression of soldier discontent began to increase, with growing individual refusals to follow orders. In June 1965 West Point graduate and special forces officer Lieutenant Richard R. Steinke refused a direct order into a combat zone because of his disapproval of U.S. policy in Vietnam. In June 1966 Private Adam R. Weber, Jr., of the 25th Infantry Division, was sentenced to a year in prison for his refusal to bear arms in Vietnam. In a letter from October of that year, Captain William Wilders of the 1st Battalion, 28th Infantry, 1st Infantry Division, described some of the rigors of combat and then the reaction of the troops.

'We don't have too many cases of battle fatigue, but we do have a goodly number of people who after a certain point just refuse to go out anymore and end up being court-martialed. And to tell the truth it's hard to blame them' (William Wilders to James F. Wilders, Phuoc Binh, RVN, Oct. 6, 1966)."

...snip...

"The Air Force also suffered combat refusals. As a protest, combat pilots Captain Dwight Evans and Captain Michael Heck refused to fly missions. Heck, a veteran of 175 missions and holder of the Distinguished Flying Cross, realized that his targets were hospitals and civilian sectors; he cited Nuremburg principles and refused to fly."

...snip...

"Four other airmen who refused to fly B-52 missions joined Representative Elizabeth Holtzman of New York in a suit challenging the legality of the Cambodian bombings. These bombings, which exacted a heavy toll among civilians, led to a crisis of morale among B-52 bomber crews."

...snip...

"On November 3, 1972, one of the most serious mass mutinies in U.S. naval history occurred aboard the USS Constellation, paralyzing the ship."

...snip...

"These highly publicized and well-documented uprisings are only the most dramatic expressions of the GIs refusal to fight in Vietnam or to obey military authority. Army documentation suggests that a thousand small incidents of combat refusal occurred. After all, as Col Heinl wrote in 'The Armed Forces Journal,'


'The morale, discipline and battle worthiness of the U.S. Armed Forces are, with a few salient exceptions, lower and worse than at any time in the century and possibly in the history of the United States. By every conceivable indicator, our army that now remains in Vietnam is in a state approaching collapse, with individual units avoiding or having refused combat, murdering their officers and non-commissioned officers, drug-ridden, and dispirited where not near-mutinous. Elsewhere than Vietnam, the situation is nearly as serious.' (1971, p.30)"

[Media_Lies_Daily]

24. I think it's happened at least once before...

...remember when 2-star General Al Haig was made Chief-of-Staff during Nixon's last year in office? His reward was the 4-star NATO command job...jumped over quite a few more senior and more deserving senior officers.

I also remember that the guy carrying the nuclear codes no longer followed Nixon around, and I knew a guy in the military who told me about a message that came into his command that stated "Disregard all orders from the Commander-in-chief."

[Solly Mack]

21. Yeah, we've already been warned..1 more AWOL in our company

and leaves will be canceled. We've had 2 out of 11 that have taken leave so far.

Which means my husband may not get his r&r..

Some are riding profile on top of profile to keep from going back..and 2 have gone AWOL..can't blame them but it does make my husband's load heavier..and that does bother me.

[VLC98]

36. Typical service mentality..

punish everyone for the behavior of a minuscule minority. That must be great for morale. Best wishes to your husband.

[sleipnir]

22. Refuse to Fight, Refuse to KiIll

Illegal wars are wrong and I'll support any of our boys/girls who choose to not fight. One of the ultimate acts of C.D. is sitting in a brig, not fighting an illegal, wrong war.

If the soldiers in Israel can do it, so can our people. I look forward to the day when the people get the power back and OUR army no longer marches with the corporations and hookwinked politicians...

[DuctapeFatwa]

31. Word! May the heroes who say "NO" live long and prosper

And may any soldier of any country who ever receives an order to harm you or your family have the same courage to say "NO."

[wildwww2]

35. Our politicians are not hoodwinked. "Lying Wussies" are what they are!

They are well aware of the "New Vietnam" Bu$h Inc. has brought us. Until it is their sons and daughters and nephews and neices who serve in 130 degree deserts for our empires idea of freedom. This crap will continue. I heard Charlie Rangel suggest that the fourtunate sons and daughters should be made to serve. Only then will we have politicans that will stop war`s slaughter to save some of our troops. Vanguard system. We need it now. Jenna and Barb Bu$h should be kicked out of the booze halls and straight into boot camp. Same with Cheney`s lesbian daughter and her lover. Don`t ask don`t tell. Daddy`s got a war on. Daddy`s children should serve. Sounds good to me.
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[Mari333]

26. support our kids

Help them stay out of this mess
www.bringthemhomenow.com
www.mfso.org
http://girights.objector.org/

[imax2268]

28. I knew it also...

when I heard that troops were going to be rotated home for a few weeks then sent back...I thought to myself..."how many are going to refuse to go back"...

That's pretty bad when 49% say they are not going to stay in the military...not only has BushCo pissed off most of the world but he may be the cause of our military to decline in numbers...way to go Chimpy...

[Jorje Bzsch]

39. I would rather die for saving my Country

But not Making Huliburton rich..

[0007]

44. I'll go along with that!

.......and I don't blame anyone that sez "NO to junior. junior is a fucking fraud.

[ninkasi]

40. For what it's worth...

I spent a few days recently with family who live about 4 hours from me. Two of us are 60, one is 63, our kids range from mid-thirties to early twenties. Their children are all different ages. You should have seen us; all sitting around, discussing the immorality of this horrible war, sad that we are seeing a repetition of what we older ones saw during the VietNam years.

All of us, though, are completely dedicated to getting out votes for Democratic candidates, writing letters to editors, and a few of us have been to some of the peace marches. All of us are against this war, and agree that the whole Bush bunch needs to go. I had some long, wonderful conversations with a couple of twelve year old boys, and I'll guarantee you that either one of them would make a better president that Dubya.

[symbolman]

41. This will be a national tv and radio commercial

ARMY OF ONE by Take Back the Media

http://www.takebackthemedia.com/onearmy.html

[TNOE]

42. I'd like to see the ones over there just thrown down their arms

too - just quit.

[Neutrino]

45. Well, now that these guys are "abreast of the Issues"--up close and

personal---they can stay home and get ready to kick those Jackasses
out of the White House by voting with their hearts and minds--
Democratic. Any Democrat will do.

[jokerman93]

46. We haven't started hearing the personal stories yet but

when these men and women returning start to speak up -- and they will -- DU needs to do everything possible to see they get their voices heard.

It could mean more than throwing these pimps out of the WH in '04.

What about a return to conscience in the American ethos?

There's hope here too.

[Zhade]

49. HEROES!

We must all do whatever it takes to support these courageous men and women. They are true heroes to refuse to fight for BushCo's imperial dreams.