US failure to count civilian deaths 'incredible'

[UpInArms]

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=455545

The refusal by the US army to count the number of Iraqi civilians killed by US soldiers in Baghdad has been strongly condemned by Human Rights Watch.

Joe Stork, the acting executive director of the group's Middle East and North Africa division, said: "It is a tragedy that US soldiers have killed so many civilians in Baghdad. But it is really incredible that the US military does not even count these deaths."

...more...

[arcane1]

1. counting the people we kill will just weaken our resolve

and give comfort to our enemies blah blah blah

this asshole in the White House is driving me to the point of wanting to wear a bag over my head when I leave the house :grr:

[Aidoneus]

2. and what of their failure to give a damn?

that's the more notable story to me..

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

3. The fact that Bush's war has been responsible for the deaths of

over 10,000 Iraqi citizens just doesn't play well on American television.

[LeftistGorilla]

4. Counting....

would mean that the civillians are actually worth keeping alive...
not to Chimp and his clan...

[DuctapeFatwa]

5. That's just because they haven't killed them all yet

The American voting classes don't want progress reports.

They want to hear "Mission Accomplished."

[Barrett808]

6. And Iraq Body Count puts the total at 1,519 excess violent deaths

Over 1,500 violent civilian deaths in occupied Baghdad

The first definitive total of violent civilian deaths in Baghdad since mid April has been published by Iraq Body Count (IBC), an Anglo-American research group tracking media-reported civilian deaths occuring as a consequence of the US/UK military intervention in Iraq.

From April 14th to 31st August, 2,846 violent deaths were recorded by the Baghdad city morgue. When corrected for pre-war death rates in the city a total of at least 1,519 excess violent deaths in Baghdad emerges from reports based on the morgue's records.

IBC's latest study is the first comprehensive count to adjust for the comparable "background level" of deaths in Baghdad in recent pre-war times. It is therefore an estimate of additional deaths in the city directly attributable to the breakdown of law and order following the US takeover and occupation of Baghdad.

The study confirms the widespread anecdotal evidence that violence on the streets of Baghdad has skyrocketed, with the average daily death rate almost tripling since mid April from around 10 per day to over 28 per day during August.

...

Although the majority of deaths are the result of Iraqi on Iraqi violence, some were directly caused by US military fire. There is evidence that these deaths, often from indiscriminate use of firepower, increasingly fail to be reported or remain unacknowledged by occupation forces.

(more)

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/press.htm

[On the Road]

11. 1, 500 Deaths Since April 14?

:wtf:
I thought this was talking about during the war. That's unbelievable.

[Fuzz]

7. They're not being killed, they're being 'liberated'.

C'mon, get with the program!

I hope a sarcasm tag isn't necessary.

[theivoryqueen]

9. Permanently

[prolesunited]

8. They have NO excuses

At first I thought this was just about those killed by bombs and other actions during the "shock and awe" phase. This is AFTER major operations have ceased. From the article:

"Human Rights Watch collected evidence of 94 civilians being killed by the US army in the capital and confirmed 20 cases between 1 May and 30 September. The report said civilians were most likely to be killed during raids, at checkpoints, and after ambushes."

They can't be bothered to keep track of these numbers. How hard would that be?!?! The fact is they don't want to keep track of it. They don't want to be held accountable for their actions. They don't want any records of what is happening over there.

It also is further evidence of there disregard for human life, especially if it is not U.S. life. You keep hearing how we only lost X amount of lives, but what about all the innocent men, women and children who were killed during our bombing campaign and subsequent infrastructure problems.

[Malva Zebrina]

10. Bush is in over his head

and it does not take much to achieve that. His head is rather low on the scale of intelligence. According to what I am reading lately, the infighting amongst the minions in the White House is out of control. They are all posturing against each other and all think they deserve the top spot in this lucrative government where they and their buddies are raking in the bucks big time--and we are paying their salaries--they are supposed to be serving the country, and that is really laughable at this point; they serve themselves and the hell with the rest of us. Bush is an incompetent, treasonous,filthy liar who brought this country into two wars and who murdered these thousands of innocent people--for nothing but his own greed and because of his own cheap, shallow world view where he is king, his fatassed wife is queen and that is all that matters to him, so pathetic is his vision. I wish someone would expose this idiot for what he really d is--and Cheney, and Rice and Powell--they are all incompetant, sleezy sycophants with fancy degrees that only mean they learned how to work the system to satisfy thier egos and their pocketbooks--they will continue to make money off of it after Bush is kicked out in the next election--and that is the sad part of it. What a horrible three years we have endured under an evil fascist like dumb and lacking in any sort of intelligence, ego driven, let's pretend I am a pilot and give me the costume, pathetic little man. He was not elected--and he will go down in history as the worst and the most stupid, overbearing and low class president this country has ever known.

[central scrutinizer]

12. there are no civilian deaths

If somebody is killed by Bushco, by definition, they are an enemy combatant, not a civilian. Everybody in Gitmo or other torture camps are enemy combatants, ergo guilty. Once somebody is caught or killed, they immediately are called a "terrorist" leader to help with the propaganda effort.

[Myra]

13. My non-DU fellow 'Merkans

Seem so unconcerned about Iraqi civilian deaths
that I wonder if we're a nation of sociopaths.

[BeFree]

14. My fellow Americans

Have a lynch-mob mentallity. We can only hope they are now satiated.

[dArKeR]

15. U.S. soldiers accused of wrongful deaths - TGM

New York — A human rights organization says it has confirmed 20 civilian deaths under questionable circumstances in Baghdad since May 1, when U.S. President George W. Bush declared an end to major combat operations in Iraq, and has received credible reports of dozens more.

In a report released late Monday, Human Rights Watch also accused the U.S. military of failing to conduct proper investigations into excessive or indiscriminate use of force in the Iraqi capital.

“It's a tragedy that U.S. soldiers have killed so many civilians in Baghdad,” said Joe Stork, acting executive director of the Middle East and North Africa division of the New York-based group, which monitors human rights abuses around the world.

“But it's really incredible that the U.S. military does not even count these deaths,” Mr. Stork said. “Any time U.S. forces kill an Iraqi civilian in questionable circumstances, they should investigate the incident.”

U.S. soldiers accused of wrongful deaths

[Beaker]

16. Fuck'em- they don't vote republican anyway.

those boys gotta have something to shoot at.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

17. Compassionate conservatism. Dead Iraqis must take responsibility

for counting themselves. No excuses. Even though they are dead, they must let go of their victim mentality. Only Democrats encourage dead Iraqis to feel sorry for themselves and blame others for their condition.

[The_Casual_Observer]

18. Those "Freedom haters" don't count

literally


The enemy is never considered to be actual "people", as was so well documented in interviews with SS guards in the film "Shoah".

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

19. they can't even count U.S troops killed in Iraq correctly

How could they possible attempt counting anything?
billions of dollars unaccounted for---can't count that either
Votes in Florida? can't count those
COUNT???



http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/Summary.aspx

[Rex]

20. Boy...that news needs to be filtered!

Let's see..."U.S. soldiers don't need to count bodies in Iraq because every single one they kill is a terrorist, either was or would have been soon."

[dArKeR]

21. 'Civilians are bearing the brunt of violence' - IOL

Baghdad - In the violence of post-war Iraq, civilians are overwhelmingly the victims, killed either by bombs aimed at others, by nervous American soldiers or in random shootouts.

The number of Iraqis killed since the war which ousted Saddam Hussein in April eclipses the death toll among United States soldiers who face daily attacks from guerrillas fighting the occupation of the country.

Since US President George Bush declared major combat over on May 1, 104 American soldiers have been killed in hostile fire.

Iraq Body Count, an Anglo-American research group tracking deaths of Iraqis, says at least 5 700 died during the six-week war. But soaring violence since the US takeover has killed a further 2 000 to 2 200 civilians.

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=3&art_id=qw1066741383547B262&set_id=1

[leesa]

22. How else do you keep the myth of precision weapons alive?

If we actually counted the dead, we would be forced to admit precision weapons kill just as many as non-precision weapons, maybe even more.

[IndianaGreen]

23. Al-Jazeera: US soldiers trigger happy in Iraq

US soldiers trigger happy in Iraq
By Shaista Aziz

Tuesday 21 October 2003, 22:13 Makka Time, 19:13 GMT

The report is also critical of the manner in which soldiers carry out raids on civilians inside their homes. These raids are often conducted in the dark with troops firing into houses as they approach.

''Often Iraqi civilians don't realise that these are soldiers that are approaching their homes whilst shooting. Some think that they may be looters, and so they shoot back'', says Abrahams.

Keeping the Peace

One of the biggest areas of concern for the Human Rights Watch team is that soldiers are not adequately trained in peacekeeping.

In particular Abrahams singles out the actions of the 82nd Airborne Division.

''Many of these soldiers have no idea how to keep the peace, they have been trained to participate in combat operations and show aggression to the enemy, and that is what many have been doing to Iraqi civilians'', says Abrahams.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/92CA3C35-0801-4331-AA6A-D361467F4E93.htm

[IndianaGreen]

24. Here is the full report

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/iraq1003/

Civilian Deaths Over Time

Of the ninety-four reported civilian deaths, Human Rights Watch documented the exact date in 88 cases, or 93.6%.12 As Graph 1 shows, the patterns of deaths over time appears to include two surges and two decreases. The apparent decline in September could be due to improved checkpoint visibility, increased reliance on Iraqi police during raids and other police actions, and a general transition from combat operations. At the same time, the statistics may be low because they were collected at the end of September, before reports could be filed with the police or local human rights groups and therefore make their way into the data set. In addition, as the graph shows, previous decreases were followed by a surge, and this pattern may occur again in the future.



Graph 1 - Questionable Civilian Deaths in Baghdad Over Time


U.S. Military Units Involved

Iraqis rarely knew the unit of soldiers responsible for inflicting casualties. Through its own research or media reports, however, Human Rights Watch identified at least the military division, if not the specific unit, in eight incidents involving sixteen civilian deaths. Of these, the 82nd Airborne was involved in four incidents in which seven civilians were killed and the 1st Armored Division was involved in four incidents in which nine civilians were killed. Four civilians were killed in an operation by Task Force 20, a combined CIA-Army special forces team established to capture Iraq’s former rulers, but it is not clear if they were responsible for the shooting.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/iraq1003/3.htm#_Toc54183730