Carnival gets $192M for efforts

[Scurrilous]

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/business/national/12575582.htm

Carnival Corp. will receive $192 million plus expenses for the use of three ships in hurricane recovery efforts.

<snip>

"The federal government will pay Miami-based Carnival Corp. $192 million for providing temporary housing to evacuees from hurricane Katrina on three luxury cruise liners.

Carnival, the world's largest cruise ship company, also will receive up to $44 million in reimbursement for fuel and other costs under a deal with the Federal Emergency Management Agency.

The deal, announced Saturday, allows FEMA to use three Carnival ships -- The Sensation, the Ecstasy and the Holiday -- to accommodate between 6,000 and 8,000 evacuees for six months in Galveston, Texas, and Mobile, Ala.

Carnival declined to disclose how much profit it earns from those three ships in a more typical six-month period."

[cornermouse]

1. A lady on NPR yesterday said there was no way she was getting

on a ship to be surrounded by water again. She said it was too much like what she had just been through.

[Cronus Protagonist]

3. It's amazing just how pig ignorant some Republicans can be

Particularly the leadership.


http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
Buttons for brainy people - educate your local freepers today!

[izzie]

4. I was betting they felt that way.Same as this

I am not going back to that city after spending 7 days in a flood. Who would not say that. Barbara Bush is also nuts. I would love Tx. also if they took me in and I was asked a day later. The Bush people are really clueless.

[ignatius 2]

79. I heard that also. I first thought the cruise ships sounded like

a great iea,but after hearing her speak I realized how the New Orleans would feel about this.

[sandnsea]

2. Corporatization Continues

This is the failure, the belief of these people that private enterprise and faith-based groups will solve everything.

http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/blog/?view=plink&id=1346

[420inTN]

31. What has Government solved?

????

[sandnsea]

33. Are you serious?

If you are, you might be on the wrong board.

[420inTN]

35. Yes, I am serious.

Since the Great Depression, what has government solved?

We still have poverty.
We still have war.
We still have racism/bigotry/prejudices/sexism/agism/etc-ism.
We still have drugs.
We still have crime.
We still have hatred.
We still have people without adequate healthcare.

I am not saying that government hasn't helped right wrongs or eased suffering, nor am I calling for the abolishment of government. The post to which I initially replied was questioning reliance on the private/religious/charity sectors on solving problems, but what problems have government solved?

[donheld]

40. Do you think corporatization is the answer?

That's fascism.

[420inTN]

47. I think that a mix of both is best.

Both have their strengths and weaknesses and can complement each other when properly implemented.

>> "That's fascism." <<

No, it's not... from www.dictionary.com:

Fascism:
1. often Fascism
A. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
B. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
2. Oppressive, dictatorial control.

[sandnsea]

46. How old are you?

Do you realize the problems you mention are the worst in the south where the least amount of government is in place? Maybe you need to do a little research on what it was really like in this country before FDR and LBJ's programs.

[420inTN]

49. I'm 36

>> "Do you realize the problems you mention are the worst in the south where the least amount of government is in place?" <<

I live in southwest TN (hence the TN in my nick). I am very familiar with how things are in the south

[politick]

53. This is

ideally, where government should be most useful. My core philosophy is maybe something close to anarchy, but for public works, aid, relief, gov't has a distinct and necessary responsibility.

THe way BushCo uses gov't, it grows into a monster.

[420inTN]

55. I agree

Situtations like this is ideally what government is for. However, what's the difference between the government renting a few cruise ships for people to stay, than renting a couple of hotels. Heck, these ships are practically floating hotels.

These people have to have somewhere to stay. Would some people rather see these poor victims housed in tent cities or bivouaced on military bases like they were in a concentration or relocation camp, or kept in the AstroDome indefinitely?

The government needs to provide immediate shelter for those poor folks. This is the fastest, temporary measure that could be found.

[sandnsea]

63. There's homes across America

Tons of people are opening their homes and schools and all sorts of places for people to live. Give each person the $32,000 directly, they'd make better use of it than Carnival Cruiselines. But oh no, can't do that, that'd encourage a "welfare mentality". Right?

[420inTN]

66. No, that works for me

But where are you going to house these folks until "foster" homes are found for them? What if they don't want to relocate all across the country? There are already reports of buses from D.C. coming back empty. I've also heard (on the radio) that plans to use a military base in Massachusetts for housing the victims has been scrapped because no one wanted to relocate there.

I don't have a problem with renting the ships. I do have a problem with how much they are being paid. It is exhorbitant and outrageous.

[sandnsea]

70. They don't want the ships either

We're going to have to hand out housing checks and let them rent places to live. Still, all those other places would have been MUCH cheaper than the cruiseline, but that's what happens when you bring corporate America into it. Same thing that happened in Iraq. People only thought government handled things badly, that's because they had forgotten how bad it was when corporate America was in charge before FDR.

[420inTN]

71. But the corporations aren't in charge of this.

BushCo went to the cruise line.

The problem is just tossing a wad of cash to the corporations.

It is actually a decent idea, just poorly implemented. Big Shock there. It's still the government screwing up. You may want to blame the corporation, but the corporation didn't force the government to hand over a phat check.

And unless you wanted the victims to live in the Astrodome for six months, where are you going to find immediate housing for the thousands of evacuees without having to go to corporate (hotel/apartment) america?

So, you hand the evacuees a housing check, what else do you say, "Here's a check, good luck finding somewhere to live."? It's going to take weeks, if not months to find new residences for everyone, and then you have to convince the evacuees to relocate.

Do you think that Houston can support/house an immediate 20,000 population increase? Are there that many available apartments or houses?

Edit: Just from doing a quick browsing at http://travel.yahoo.com , $1250 per person per week is probably about what the cruiseline would average on a 7-night cruise. Way to sacrifice to help there, Carnival.

[DBoon]

51. Poverty rates dropped dramatically in the early 1960's

largely due to great society programs.

Poverty among the elderly was a serious problem at the time. It has been dramatically reduced as a result of great society programs.

Government programs after WWII helped millions of Americans join the middle class: college education via the GI Bill, home loans via FHA/VA, and so on. A level of unprecedented prosperity for the average American was founded on the New Deal and Square Deal.

The average citizen can enjoy a view of Yosemite Valley thanks to Teddy Roosevelt and his creation of a national park system.

I think government can accomplish many good things. Want me to name more?

[POAS]

57. That's a VERY modest list which makes

me wonder why 420 hasn't responded yet.

[420inTN]

60. Because I don't spend every second hitting "refresh"

:-)

[420inTN]

59. Re: I think government can accomplish many good things.

I agree. As I posted earlier, government can help to reduce the problems. I don't deny that.

But while the government has alleviated a lot of ills, these ills were not solved, and still exist.

okay... Government did pretty much solve child labor problems.

[iverglas]

72. seems you're asking the wrong question

Since the Great Depression, what has government solved?

You might want to try:

What has YOUR government TRIED TO solve?

Governments in the rest of the world have not solved (life being a process, after all, and this being but one little period of history), but certainly have mitigated, quite a few problems, while your governments were busy exacerbating them.

I could provide you with a list, but maybe we could just mention that adequate healthcare thingy for now. And really; how exactly would "government" "solve" hatred? Any other outfit you can name made much headway on that one?

Well, of course, government can mitigate that problem, as various other governments have in fact been doing.

So ... is the problem with "government", or with YOUR governments?

One might even suggest that you're showing a tendency to stereotyping and prejudice here. A bad experience with one government (including a string of essentially identical governments under only very slightly different banners, of course) really shouldn't make you hate, fear and distrust all governments now, should it?

Expand your horizons, go out and meet some other governments. You might be pleasantly surprised, and might even be happy to have yours marry one of them.

[420inTN]

75. I was referring only to our (US) government.

edit to add:

As i followed-up above, government can mitigate problems.

[me b zola]

83. That all depends on who has control of the government

[patdem]

5. We have almost 1 million homless, jobless, displaced citizens

and this takes care of at most 8,000 for 236 million dollars at this rate it will cost 29 billion 500 million just to house these people for 6 months...all to save a measly 250 million? These people have got to go...we cannot afford to keep them in the White House any longer.

[Scurrilous]

6. My poor math skills...

...make this to be roughly $30,000.00 per person for 6 months rent. I hope this includes open bar.

[mrbill]

8. your ball park math skills are good.......

$192,000,000 for rent plus $44,000,000 for fuel(utilities?)equals $236,000,000.

That's $236 million. Divide by 8000 people and you get $29,500. That's $4916.17 per month. Probably for double occupancy in a 120- square foot cabin.

Seems a bit on the high side to me. Cabins on ships are tiny rooms.

Figured on a square foot basis, you could get a nice large apartment in Manhattan for this price.

And how much fuel does a ship use while docked in port?

Looks like a great deal for the cruise line. Money, money, money, money.

[Tace]

9. $4,900/Mo Would Rent A Very Nice Large Full 2-BR In A Luxury,

high-rise, doorman building in Gramarcy, one of the nicest parts of Manhattan.

[mrbill]

10. do you get a key to that private park with that?????

Gramarcy is one cool neighborhood.

[bigluckyfeet]

37. Have they Given Any Money to Houston

and Harris county to house and feed thousands?...I have heard nothng.

[MidwestTransplant]

20. Great deal for Carnival. Bad deal for tax payers.

http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/w?s=CCL

[xxqqqzme]

22. does that include all prepared meals?

how is the ship staffed? is the regular staff on hand for room make-up - etc? If the staff is on board for their regular duties they have 2 B paid...most cruise ship service staff R paid bare minimum relying on gratuities @ end of cruise 2 make up the difference. There will B no gratutities for this staff. The service staff is only one step up from the evacuees because they have jobs.

[1932]

25. See post 19.

[xxqqqzme]

36. Didn't answer my questiom

If U have ever been on a criuse ship - U know the service staff gets paid next 2 nothing, they rely on end of cruise gratutities.

[1932]

48. You can extrapolate from the data.

People spend about 300 per passenger on board the ship. If people tip 20%, that's a maximum of $60 per passenger. However, they don't spend the full 300 on items that would result in tips.

[kath]

34. Wow, is the CEO of Carnival a Bush Pioneer or somethin'?

what a frickin' waste of money! $5K per month?!?!?!?

[preciousdove]

7. Over three times what they cut out for levee construction/repair n/t

[Just Me]

41. Their failure to invest in prevention will cost this country,...

,...in thousands of lost lives and billions of public treasure.

[havocmom]

65. Good catch (n/t)

[realFedUp]

11. I'm betting Americans think these were donated...

Think the MSM will report the cost per individual?
Will it ask questions about fuel costs for docking
in one place or will the ships continue to do
cruise, taking in paying customers with these people onboard?

Are there any NO citizens living onboard now and
how many?

There's a story just waiting to be written.

[realFedUp]

13. Article in LA Times lists reasons people aren't getting on ships

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-houston7sep07,1,3418604.story

No Takers for Cruise Ship Offers
Tony Perry
A25

snip

But FEMA workers found that evacuees were reluctant to move and further risk not finding relatives, jobs and schools. Officials said the computer networks established by the Red Cross and other agencies to reunite families would be available aboard the ships.

[shavedape]

12. who's the dumbass with this bright idea

carnival stockholder i'm sure.

[1932]

14. I bet if someone looked at Carnival's SEC filings (if they're public)

they could get a good idea of how much they make per ship during that time frame.

[Missy Vixen]

15. I'd also be curious to know what party Carnival's

ownership's political donations went to in the last election cycle.

Almost $5K per month, per person for room and board? Somehow, I don't think they'll be feeding the evacuees the typical cruise cuisine, and I don't buy "fuel costs" for a ship tied up at the dock.

Julie

[tom_paine]

17. They will be Busheviks & this is just another kickback

No tragedy so odious that the Busheviks can't loot some more of the public treasury.

[psychopomp]

81. You said it!

They just make me want to :puke:

[1932]

19. Over six months, Carnival carries 3M passengers on 77 ships and makes

$3M in ticket sales and another $1M from on-board sales. Their net costs are about $2.4M.
Ultimately, they make about $533 off of each passenger.

So, it looks like this is going to be the opposite of charity for Carnival. This is going to be a significant improvement on per-passenger earnings.

They'll make even more money off the N.O. passengers because they won't take them anywhere and they probably won't be entertaining them, so their net costs will be lower thann normal.

A correction in Carnival's favor: you need to make a correction for length of stay on the ship. If the average cruise is 2 weeks, then a month is $1,066 in profits. So, fair compensation would be about $1,066 per passenger per month. What is the government paying? $4900?

http://biz.yahoo.com/e/050707/ccl10-q.html

[Missy Vixen]

28. 1932, this is interesting

Since you found the information, would you be willing to forward the above to Keith Olbermann or another journalist you trust? Hopefully, they'd think it would be worth a story. You're right, Carnival seems to have less than charitable motives here, seeing as how they are making a massive profit on the agreement. Obviously, the three ships will be taken out of service for the period of time that they are being used as shelters, but it's not okay for them to soak FEMA (and the rest of us by extension.)

Thanks for the research.

Julie

[1932]

30. Feel free to forward a link to the thread.

I won't have time until later.

Incidentally, one other important piece of info: vacancy rates. I couldn't find info about that. If Carnival has excess capacity, this really helps them (however, over T-giving and X-mas, I presume they operate near full capacity).

Incidentally, in their 10-Q they say state department rules might reduce passenger numbers because soon they'll need passports where they didn't in the past.

[420inTN]

76. Look again, that's Billions, not Millions.

the number of passengers are listed in thousands, so 3000 x $1000 = $3 million.

the financials (with the exceptions of the ALBD numbers - whatever that is) are listed in millions, so 3000 x $1,000,000 = $3 billion.

(otherwise, if they had 3 million passengers, and $3 million, that would only be $1 per person)

[1932]

80. The bottom line totals are correct.

No?

[420inTN]

82. No, I'm afraid not.

First, the average cruise is not 2 weeks. The average cruise is probably between 4-7 days. For simplicity sake, let's say that it is 7 days (1 week).

You figured that the government's payment should be based on the average PROFIT that the cruise line makes per passenger. Profit is revenue (money in) in excess of costs (money out). Costs per passenger could be more, or less than the profit that they make.

Now, to figure out what the gov't could (or should) pay should either be based solely on costs (so that the cruise liner makes no profit), revenue (money they receive from each passenger), or a mix (costs + fixed percentage for profit).

Costs
-----
There is gross costs (all costs including commissions paid to travel agents, etc.) and net costs (all costs less commissions, etc.)

According to their sheet, the gross cost is $3,487,000,000. Divide that by 3,306,000 passengers and the average cost per passenger is roughly $1054.75. So, for a month, that will be just over $4219 per passenger (at no profit).

According to their sheet, the net cost is $2,482,000,000. Divide that by 3,306,000 passengers and the average cost per passenger is roughly $750.76. So, for a month, that will be just over $3000 per passenger (at no profit).


Revenue
-------
There is gross revenue (all money in), and net revenue (all money in minus travel agent commissions, and miscellaneous onbord expenses).

According to their sheet, the gross cost is $4,856,000,000. Divide that by 3,306,000 passengers and the average cost per passenger is roughly $1468.84. So, for a month, that will be just over $5875 per passenger.

According to their sheet, the net cost is $3,851,000,000. Divide that by 3,306,000 passengers and the average cost per passenger is roughly $1164.85. So, for a month, that will be just over $4659.40 per passenger.

Now, if we include back in the miscellaneous onboard expenses, the "new net" revenue is $4,042,000,000. Divide that by 3,306,000 passengers and the average cost per passenger is roughly $1222.63 So, for a month, that will be just over $4890.52 per passenger.

So, it looks like that's how they figured what the government's bill will be... roughly $4900 per person per month. They based their numbers off the past six months report, or the projections for the next six months. If they used the previous report they took gross revenure minus commission expenses and probably added a little for the cost of moving the ships and refunding/transferring reservations already made for those ships for the next six months.

They (either the government or Carnival) made sure that Carnival wouldn't lose a dime over this deal.

Thanks for taking one for the team, Carnival.

[myrna minx]

21. From Buy Blue...

http://www.buyblue.org/detail.php?corpId=275

Summary Company Info In the News Financials Alternatives Take Action
Carnival Corporation


BuyBlue.org's Rating:
(What do the ratings mean?)
Rating: Light Red - 43 %


BuyBlue.org's Position:
Carnival currently has a 43% BuyBlue rating due to political contributions for the 2003-2004 election cycle. Carnival's executives contributed heavily during the last election cycle, mostly to Republican candidates. Carnival also has two political action committees which donated - $63,050 (44.00% Dem, 56.00% Rep) and $27,750 (59.00% Dem, 41.00% Rep).

[alkaline9]

16. I'm curious too, will they let the people off the ships?

...or will they be held there with relatively no access to the outside world like in some cases on military bases?

[GoddessOfGuinness]

45. Someone posted about a "refugee camp" in Oklahoma...

on tthe grounds of a Southern Baptist camp out in a very remote area. They aren't allowed to use the kitchen facilities. And if they leave, they won't be allowed back.

I wonder if they'll be released after elections are over...

[alkaline9]

18. I wonder how Sri Lanka feels about their donations...

...being used to pay for 1/44th of the fuel payment to Carnival Cruise Lines? I wonder if any of these countries would have donated the money they can barely afford only to have it go to a big American corporation? @#$% YOU BUSH!

[geebensis]

23. What about waste?

I'm not sure those ships have any waste handling capability.

A lot of people -- well, a lot of people who don't live near cruise ship ports -- don't realize that these ships dump their raw sewage into the ocean.

What are they going to do? Power up every couple of days, cruise three miles offshore, and dump their tanks?

As for the amount per month they'd get per cabin: $4,000 gross revenue per cabin per month is probably less than they'd get with paying passengers. Of course, with paying passengers they have to provide all that food -- I doubt the evacuees will be treated to round-the-clock buffets...

[xxqqqzme]

24. I hate having to register to read an article

we need to have bugmenot registrations included w/ a link requiring registration!

[anotherdrew]

26. the outrages just keep roling in like the waves

it's almost unbelievable

[glugglug]

27. Who snagged this deal?

Which of Bush's buddies has all the Carnival stock? Or is it Citigroup, who owns 11%?

[LibDemAlways]

29. A boondoggle for Carnival and

most likely a nightmare for the "guests." Ever been tied up to a dock on a cruise ship? In port the pool is drained, the few shops are closed - even those that provide essentials like toothpaste - and there really isn't much to do. The cabins are small, and some will accommodate up to 4 with berths that fold down from the ceiling, so the quarters will be cramped. These ships are intended for one week cruises with passengers mostly out of their cabins participating in a full range of activities. They were never intended to be long-term housing.

The normal crew depends on tips - which they won't be getting - so chances are, the few who stay on will quickly bail. Certainly evacuees aren't going to be handed a menu asking them to choose between the prime rib and the lobster. How institutional will the meals become as Carnival seeks to maximize profit? You can bet these people are going to quickly become tired of eating mac and cheese and hot dogs.

That money would have been so much better spent renting trailers for those now left homeless or cutting them checks to rent apartments and help them get on with their lives. Warehousing them aboard cruise ships in port is putting a small band-aid on a huge, profusely bleeding gash.

[nibbana]

32. Some Church shelters are cashing in on FEMA money also

With all the cronyism going down with the Bush regime, every dollar spent on "helping" the inflicted, needs to be monitored.

[Tesibria]

38. Campaign Contributions ...

Donations to 2004 Bush:

ANDERSON, JACK D MR
CAPE CORAL,FL 33904
CARNIVAL CORPORATION/VP MARKETING
4/6/2004
$500
Bush, George W

ARISON, MICKY MR
BAL HARBOUR,FL 33154
CARNIVAL CRUISE LINES/EXECUTIVE
11/28/2003
$2,000
Bush, George W

FRANK, HOWARD S MR
KEY BISCAYNE,FL 33149
CARNIVAL CRUISE LINES/EXECUTIVE
11/28/2003
$2,000
Bush, George W

PEREZ, ADOLFO M MR
CORAL GABLES,FL 33146
CARNIVAL CRUISE LINES/VICE PRESIDEN
7/9/2004
$500
Bush, George W

Source: http://www.opensecrets.org/indivs/search.asp?NumOfThou=0&txtName=&txtState=%28all+states%29&txtZip=&txtEmploy=Carnival&txtCand=Bush&txt2004=Y&Order=N


Donations to 2004 Kerry:
Results: No records found.

http://www.opensecrets.org/indivs/search.asp?NumOfThou=0&txtName=&txtState=%28all+states%29&txtZip=&txtEmploy=Carnival&txtCand=Kerry&txt2004=Y&Order=N

[DrDebug]

62. On the board of directors: Ambassador Richard G Capen Jr.

Former U.S. Ambassador to Spain...

[KamaAina]

39. Many evacuees are understandably leery of living aboard ship

Live on the water?! After you've just been inundated by water, and maybe even got plucked out of it by a helicopter?! Another briiliant idea from Marie Antoinette et Cie., Crawford, TX...

[DiverDave]

42. 5K??, will this crap NEVER END??

Christ in a sidecar, this is just another example of the rich getting richer on the backs of ALL OF US!!


Blood money, thats what it is.

Wanna bet $50 that even if they don't fill up, they get the full amount??

[Kittycat]

43. Look where those ships normall sail from:

From Carnival's website:

Ecstasy: Galveston, TX
Holiday: Mobile, AL
Sensation: New Orleans, LA

Something makes me think they weren't going to be making any money off those ships for the next few months. This is a sweet deal for Carnival.

[noshenanigans]

44. Yep

I was actually scheduled to be on the Sensation in 2 weeks, but Carnival changed it over to a different port out of florida and even gave me an on-board credit. Something tells me they're gonna make out in spades from this.

I'm so tired of feeling angry and sad.

[IA_Seth]

54. Clarification may be in order...

It may have 'Ecstasy' listed as based out of TX, but I know I hopped on it in Miami and rode it through the Bahamas, etc. and back to Miami were it picked up another load.

I suppose that was 4 years ago and things may have changed, but if I recall correctly another couple I know just took the same ride on the same ship.

[countingbluecars]

50. Who will actually be living on these ships?

I didn't register to read the article, but my gut instinct is that government personnel, contractors, etc. will get first dibs.

[Catchawave]

52. Vacation season is over for many coastal communties on

the east coast, I'm sure they could network realtors to find homes and give these families a new car for half the price the cruise line is charging! Not to mention pump some money into those sleepy little beach towns!

[goforit]

56. And hey Tom delay and the GOPsters???...What about those budget cuts

[faithnotgreed]

58. just read that NO ONE accepted this offer -

the govt thought there would be a rush on takers so they set up a lottery system but no one wanted to live on these things

they wanted a stable place to live (in a place they wanted to be) not be sent on a ship to nowhere

[AgadorSparticus]

61. I don't blame them. I wouldn't want to "live" on one of those

monstrosities, either.

[faithnotgreed]

73. absolutely - hello

i cant imagine anyone wanting to live surrounded by water after this - no matter how long

[countingbluecars]

64. I can understand why these flood victims would want

no part of living on the water. However, I don't think a cruise liner would be bad temporary housing if the ship was well maintained and meals provided. Ships like these have nice accommodations, gyms, etc.

[havocmom]

67. It won't help evacuees re-establish independent lives. No jobs, schools

on those ships. Every center I have read about has been working to get schooling lined up for the kids. Getting some 'normal' routine for the youngsters is extremely important. People have to have things to do and kids need education and routine.

[countingbluecars]

69. True

I can see where it wouldn't be great for kids. But for adults without kids and retired people, it doesn't seem like a bad idea. Wouldn't the ship be docked somewhere where people could come and go? As temporary housing, it sure beats a cot in a stadium.

[faithnotgreed]

74. thats it exactly havocmom - water first of all but then also no way

to re establish any of their lives

like i said
on a ship to nowhere

[0007]

68. Circus boats get a hell of a lot more. I think this Carnival

boat was a first class cut rate deal that the American taypayer should be proud of FEMA and Brownie.

[stepnw1f]

77. How Do We Hold Private Industry Accountable When They F*-Up

Privatizing Government is a VERY BAD IDEA! And it appears we are going in that direction WAY too much. We are seeing the effects already. Bad grades!

[420inTN]

84. How is this an example of privitizing government?

They (Carnival) are not providing a role of government. They are providing a service TO the government. The government is paying them to house displaced citizens. Where does government currently have the capacity to house these citizens in government housing?

This isn't much different than Section 8 Housing. Other than the displaced victims don't have to pay 30% of the cost.

For Section 8 information see here.

Now, I do think that Carnival should have sucked it up, and done this at cost (or even slightly over cost). Even though it would have disappointed their shareholders not to make as much profit, it would have been good PR for them.

[tomg]

78. I did a quick search of Mickey Arison

who's family owns 32% of the stock in Carnival. This is from a Village Voice article by by Joanna Cagan on the leading scoundrels in the NBA. It is dated November 24 - 30, 1998. http://www.villagevoice.com/news/9848,cagan,1755,3.html

Turns out Arison is ( or was - maybe he had an epiphany of some sort) quite a piece of work:

Mickey Arison, Miami Heat

Mickey inherited the team from dad Ted, the Heat's original owner. Ted probably didn't check in with Pat Riley and company much—he renounced his U.S. citizenship in 1990, in part to dodge U.S. taxes on his massive fortune (one of a class of "economic Benedict Arnolds," as a Treasury Department official once put it). Likewise, the Arisons' Carnival Cruise Lines, the world's biggest cruise company, is headquartered in Panama, exempting it from taxes on its revenue—$666 million in 1997. Mickey is managing general partner of the Heat and chairman and CEO of the cruise company.

Carnival was among the subjects of a scathing November 16 Times investigation of the cruise industry, revealing, among other embarrassments, that a Florida court found the company guilty of firing a crew member who refused to lie to protect Carnival in a civil suit.

Flagrant Fouls: Estimated net worth: $3.5 billion (No. 36 on the Forbes 400). Despite his enormous wealth, Arison fought hard to get Dade County to fund a large percentage of the Heat's soon-to-open arena

[saigon68]

85. Apparently another associate member of the Bush Criminal Enterprize

Amazing how a gift od slush reaps rewards

His campaign donations were returned with favor by his God the Sr. Chimp