Florida House Passes Tube-Feeding Law

[kskiska]

Now Jeb Bush plays God in Florida…

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (AP) — The Florida House voted late Monday to give Gov. Jeb Bush the power to intervene in the case of a brain-damaged woman whose feeding tube was removed last week by her husband's order.

The House voted 68-23 in favor of the bill. The state Senate planned to take it up Tuesday.

The bill would give the state's governor 15 days to order a feeding tube to be reinserted in cases like Terri Schiavo's. The governor's power would be limited to cases where a person has left no living will, is in a persistent vegetative state, has had nutrition and hydration tubes removed and where a family member has challenged the removal.

(snip)

George Felos, attorney for Michael Schiavo, said he thinks the House legislation is unconstitutional.

"I don't believe that the Legislature has the authority to interfere," Felos said.

more… http://www.nj.com/newsflash/national/index.ssf?/base/national-11/1066698849182322.xml

[BayCityProgressive]

1. ......

Shouldn't they be more worried about creating jobs and holding free elections in their state?

[Katarina]

3. No

They should be worried that we are allowing a woman to starve to death when people on death row get better treatment. For once...and it will probably be the only time I say it...I'm happy Jeb stepped in.

[WindRavenX]

5. She said she wanted to die though

This isn't just the state pulling the plug. The woman told her husband she did not want to live in a state like the one she is in. Sorry, this is the right move. She expressed a desire to die in this type of situation, and her wish must be respected.

[jiacinto]

7. IT's not that clear

Her husband stands to inherit a six figure sum from her death. There was no living will or DNR order. Nothing in writing to prove that that is what she wanted. And the medical evidence on her condition is vauge.

I think that this case is about murder.

[KC]

11. I agree

from a report I heard yesterday, I believe it was her sister and brother, that there was evidence from previous xrays that showed she had suffered broken bones, etc.
It sounds like they are looking for evidence of abuse or attempted murder, by her husband, before this heart attack

KC

[jiacinto]

17. Ok

But the other problem is that there is nothing in writing.

[Katarina]

9. Were you there?

Did you hear for yourself that she said that? This man stands to make quite a bit of money that was intended for her rehabilitaion, if she dies. Not to mention that he has a girlfriend, a baby and another one on the way. If he doesn't want to be "saddled" with her care anymore let him petition for a divorce, turn over the remaining money to he parents and let them take care of their daughter. But unless you heard it yourself, you really don't know anymore than the rest of us do and that is that she did not have a living will.

[SiobhanClancy]

14. I don't understand this husband...

He says he is following her stated wishes,with no other testimony other than his brother and sister-in-law. He never brought this up when he sought a huge settlement($20 or 30 million,although he got much less)Only after he recieved this settlement did he bring up her wish to die rather than live in such a state. He has actually spent a good deal of it on legal fees for his attorney,rather than for her rehabilitation. Her parents have said that he can keep whatever money is left,just turn the guardianship over to them. What is his motivation? He's already started a new family,so it can't be some religious belief in the marriage vows.It all just seems very suspicious,and I question the courts down there as well.

[radwriter0555]

72. Does anyone know why he won't simply divorce her and turn her care

back over to her family?

[WindRavenX]

15. But what about others?

A majority of people stand to gain money from the death of a spouse- so what do we do about people who state they want to die if they become a veggie?
This case may be sketchy, but I worry that the wishes for people to die if they become comatosed will be lost.
Sure, I may not be there- but what if she had wrote a letter that her husband kept?

[jiacinto]

16. Well

if he could produce a letter to that effect or a legal document from an attorney that she signed that's a toally differen situation. However, given that there is nothing in writing, that the doctors aren't unanimous in their assessments of her, and that her husband stands to inherit a six figure windfall, it's clear that this is euthansais.

[kenth]

18. You have to get past the misinformation

and realize that this isn't a right-to-die case.

It's a right-to-kill case, wherein a person's disability is enough to remove their rights and have them treated like property, to be disposed of as the 'guardian' sees fit.

I also think there may have been some gender bias in the judge's decision. But, that's just my perception. I honestly wonder if the tables were turned, would so many be willing to see the wife, who is having an affair and stands to gain financially, be supported in her rush to have the disabled husband put to death?

[corarose]

21. How do we know that she told her husband that she wanted to die?

That's his word against her word and she can't speak right now.

[LeighAnn]

23. Life Support / Starving to Death two different things

I think a lot of people, when they say, "I wouldn't want to be kept on life support" don't really mean, "I want you to let me starve to death if I'm unable to feed myself".
I think a lot of people picture being in a state of unconsciousness with respirators and what-not. I don't know that they'd choose a conscious state of starvation, if given a choice.

[corarose]

24. I think that you are right

When my Mom was on "life support" which was a feeding tube it wasn't necessarily "life support". Machines breathing for you and keeping your heart beating is life support and a feeding tube is not necessarily "life support".

[Guaranteed]

31. YES...

THAT is the crux of the issue. You may NOT starve someone to death. EVER. That's murder.

[DemVet]

54. Sorry, but the Husband is a greedy, lying

SOB in my opinion.

[corarose]

20. Thank You Jeb Bush!

I hate the Bush Crime Family but for once I am thanking him for stepping in.


GIVE THE DAMN HUSBAND A DIVORCE AND SET HIM FREE.

[truthisfreedom]

4. WHAT? and not address this loophole that lets people die rather than

continue generating huge sums of money for big corporations while having zero quality of life?

this is like the matrix... they hook up the bodies to tubes and use them as "money batteries" to extract money from their families to support big corporations.

[CO Liberal]

2. Isn't This a "Post Facto" Law

I believe that's the legal term for laws passed after the fact.

Any lawyers out there tonight?

[private_ryan]

6. Ex post facto

http://www.law.cornell.edu/lexicon/ex_post_facto.htm
not sure if it applies though. They can put the tube back in right after the law is passed, and will not touch anything that was done before. The idea was not to charge people with crimes that were legal at the time committed.

[enkidu2]

10. post hoc?

[Guaranteed]

32. Post hoc ergo propter hoc! n/t

[Davis_X_Machina]

8. Hard cases make bad law, n/t

[MoonRiver]

12. If Florida passes this law, then Florida should pay for it's consequences.

After all, if the immediate family (i.e. husband or wife) have no input into the situation then the immediate family should have ZERO LIABILITY regarding medical bills. I double dare anyone to disagree with this statement.

[jiacinto]

13. That woman is being murdered

I read the story and the situation is not that clear cut.

The woman in question never left a DNR or living will in writing. It's also clear that the doctors have split on whether she can recover.

The other thing is that her husband, with a girlfriend and children, stands to inherit a six figure inheritance when his wife dies.

So this is murder to me.

[corarose]

22. The Hospital & Insurance Company Murdered My Mom

My Mom was on a feeding tube and we kept finding it out of her belly.

My Mom died one day before her insurance ran out. Kind of strange wasn't it?

[Guaranteed]

29. I'm so, so sorry...

That's really sad....

[atreides1]

27. Dangerous precedent

The doctors appointed by the court say one thing and the doctors hired by her parents say another.

The question is who do you believe, the doctors appointed by the court gain nothing by making the decision they made. But the doctors hired by the parents could be sympathetic to the parents wishes, with that in mind their findings are more questionable.

The worst part about this is that while this law is only temporary, the Florida legislature will be looking to make it permanent in March.

The precedent this sets, is that now the State can interfere in any decision that is made by family members, if just another close relative disagrees with the decision.

So this is how it works with a one party system, the majority party makes the rules while the minority party sits, ineffective, unable to
achieve anything. So why have a two party system?

And what responsibility does the state shoulder? When the money runs out, does the state take over providing the care required. No they won't, the person will be placed in a state run facility until they die. So you see you'll get the same results, only it will be slower.

Her parents are not young and as much as her siblings may love her, I would not bet on them taking care of this woman, once their parents die.

Those of you here who disagree with the husbands decision only allow yourselves to see things in black and white, just like the Bushes and their supporters. There are so many shades of gray in this situation,
but the blinder wearing crowd will just keep looking straight ahead.

[Guaranteed]

30. You're talking about starving someone

for the purpose of killing them. I'm sorry for seeing things so "black and white."

[janx]

34. I've been trying to get this across in another thread.

But many here are complete freepers when it comes to this case.

[SiobhanClancy]

37. Just because people don't agree with you,doesn't mean they are "freepers".

Qualifying that remark with "in this case" doesn't make it any better. Many people have been following this case for years,and have reached a different conclusion than you have. If you are not able to respect the opinions of others,that is your right. Calling names does not add anything positive to your position,though.

[janx]

41. Terri Schiavo is being used by the right wing.

.

[SiobhanClancy]

42. I don't doubt that for a minute..

But that does not mean that everyone who disagrees with you on this point is a "freeper" or is following a right-wing agenda.

[Guaranteed]

51. I don't doubt it either.

But it's still wrong. THAT'S why people need to make the distinction between taking someone off of life support and STARVING them. Without the distinction the GOP makes progress.

[jiacinto]

68. Well

Maybe if the husband didn't stand to come into a six figure windfall I'd agree with you.

[Guaranteed]

28. No matter the situation, starving someone IS murder.

It's one thing to let someone die when they have a terminal disease. It's something else ENTIRELY to *starve* someone to death. I can't BELIEVE people aren't seeing the difference here. This isn't euthanasia. They're killing her.

[corarose]

19. Her parents should have rights for her care

My Mom was on a feeding tube and they called her brain dead and she wasn't brain dead.

Her parents should have more rights then her husband.

[Rex]

25. I believe it is unconstitutional for the state to deprive this woman

the right to live.

Amendment XIV

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

EDIT - Some might say this went to court and a ruling was issued, but just how can one say this woman got due process? If she is still breathing on her on then how can she be judged a non-entity?

[snippy]

26. What kind of sick society would allow

medical decisions to be made by doctors and legal decisions to be made by judges when these decisions rightfully should be made by the elected clerics?

[Katarina]

33. Update - Panel Approves Bill To Let Bush Intervene In Schiavo Case

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. -- A state Senate panel approved legislation Tuesday giving Gov. Jeb Bush the power to order a feeding tube be reinserted in a brain-damaged woman in defiance of courts and her husband.

The bill would give the governor 15 days to order a feeding tube reinserted into Terri Schiavo, the subject of one of the nation's longest and most bitter legal battles over care for a disabled person.

The Senate Rules & Calendar Committee approved the bill on a 10-2 vote. The full Senate planned to consider the legislation Tuesday evening. The House passed a similar bill 68-23 Monday.

Meanwhile in Tampa, U.S. District Judge Steven Merryday denied a request by the Advocacy Center for Persons with Disabilities, which monitors the treatment of disabled adults, that Schiavo be kept alive so it could investigate whether removal of the tube was abusive.

More here - http://www.wftv.com/news/2568662/detail.html

[janx]

35. I personally hope the woman gets to finish her death and

be at peace, but I'm also wary of Florida's trampling on its separation of powers. Basically what is happening is that the courts ruled one way, so Jebbie ran to the legislature to get the law changed to circumvent the courts.

I'm not a lawyer, but this doesn't smell good.

[Katarina]

38. So it's ok to starve a person to death?

I just don't understand it. People get arrested for abusing animals yet we can allow a woman to starve to death. Criminals on death row die with more dignity. We certainly can't let a murderer suffer but it's ok to legally starve a woman to death.

<shakes head> I just don't understand how we came to this point.

[janx]

40. See post #39. We've been going on about this in

GD for days now.

[Changenow]

43. The question is whether it is appropriate to withhold

medical treatment. If she were able to eat and food were withheld that would be another matter entirely. The way you can come to terms with this is to consider her a mentally aware adult who needs expensive asthma medicines to survive. If that individual were treated properly she could live functionally for many years, without the treatment she is doomed to what amounts to suffocation. The state and our society have no problem telling her that her breathing is not a priority; her life is not as valuable as the medicine. If a person who could enjoy a life of quality is denied life saving treatment because we chose not to help her, the continuation of treatment for someone with no quality of life cannot be justified. Either life matters is doesn’t. Continuing medical treatment when simply prolongs death in a person who has no real life is senseless.

[Changenow]

36. Here is what I don’t get.

The priorities of this country are totally out of wack. If she were a cancer patient who could survive and enjoy a normal life with proper treatment Jeb would tell her how sorry he is that the state can’t provide chemotherapy. There wouldn’t be anyone campaigning for her “right to life.” If she were a senior citizen who needed prescription medicine to survive, Jeb would not rush to insure legislation to save her life. The list of people who Jeb and his cronies let die is so long that his pretend compassion here is just transparent pandering to people who don’t understand the real world.

Hundreds of thousands of dollars will be spent keeping this woman alive artificially when the quality of her life is very poor. Her brain has atrophied; hope for a fulfilling life is lost. Her family cannot accept that it is medical science and nothing more that maintains her as a living corpse.

The maintenance of her life in this way certainly is artificial since the natural way to consume nutrition and hydration is by eating it. It is generally accepted that mechanical respiration can be removed when someone can’t breathe on their own, so the distinction between that removal and the removal of artificial nutrition is simply an emotional one. If she were aware of time and place the money to maintain her would be well-spent, but as things stand now it is a ridiculous waste of money to artificially sustain her.

[ColumbusGirl]

46. Have you ever read:

_The Release of the Destructin of Life Devoid of Value_?

Everyone should.

It makes a compelling argument about how people whose use to society has waned are actually being treated cruelly when they're allowed to live.

It's compelling...until you realize what you're reading.

The book is blamed for helping to foster the idea of the Holocaust. There was a fair amount of discussion about it at the Nuremburg trials.

Deciding that someone isn't worth the treatment, and in this case we're talking food and water is wrong in my opinion.

The argument may be compelling, but at least for me, I snapped my brain out and thought...what am I thinking?

I think this case would set a dangerous precident. It's not a cut and dried situation where everyone agrees she'll be in a vegetative state forever. This is murky and as must as I detest every cell in the family Bush, I agree this is the case to step in for.

[Changenow]

49. If she were poor, asthmatic and couldn't

breathe there wouldn’t be heated discussions about the fact that treatment is being withheld due to the simple fact of her poverty. It is just accepted that she is going to suffer, oh well.

[janx]

39. Related thread in GD here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=551143

[Changenow]

44. That thread is really long.

It might be time to start a new one over there.

[janx]

73. I'm all talked out. There's a lot of misinformation in this case.

. The majority of the Florida Senate learned about it yesterday, yet, unarmed with the facts, they overthrew courts that had been aware of the facts for many years.

[seaglass]

45. I don't understand this. If she has been in this state for

13 years, why haven't her parents done anything for her, is there a restraining order?

If the husband was guilty of leading her to her fate 13 years ago, why hasn't he been charged?

[Bandit]

47. Politicians are now equal to Doctors in medical matters

That is the current trend. Politicians are practicing medicine without a license. What with the new prohibitions on "late-term abortions" and now this. How did we evewr decide that a politician knows more than the medical profession when it comes to medicine? We really are a very stupid nation.

[snippy]

50. Not equal, superior.

[Corgigal]

48. I have connections

with the Hillsborough Sheriffs office and I know they are meeting with the DA's office to see if they can charge this husband with murder if brain damaged woman dies.

Trust me, this isn't over yet. I bet the hubby doesn't know this yet.

[wetbandit2003]

61. They can't charge him with murder in this case.

The husband cannot be charged with murder, because he is not commiting murder. If a patient is incapacitated, without a living will,the immediate family is the only one who can decide if the patient is to be recessutated,"in this case, its the husband", or to be continued to be kept of subsistance by life support or via artificial means of means of feeding, IE, gastro-entubation and IV in this case. However, If the doctor can be proven to produce false diagnosis on behalf of Mr. Schiavo, Then you have a case. Until then, this is a case of a man who would rather let his wife's life waste away by induced natural causes, so he can be rich and have a fully biological functional companion.

[seasat]

52. Jebbie shouldn't interfere with this one.

He is doing this to pander to the Radical Right. I think they should let what is left of this poor woman pass away. From what I've read on the subject, there is hardly any money left from all the legal battles that the husband has been through. According to this article, she doesn't have to brain capacity to know that she is starving. The brain degenerated and the cells were absorbed by her body. Her skull where her cerebral corex once existed is now filled with spinal fluid (Link). Her husband may be some greedy jerk who only wants what's left of the money and wants to win against her parents no matter what the cost. He also may be a husband that dearly loved his wife and wishes to honor a wish that she conveyed to him that her body not be substained after she dies. Either way this woman is dead already whether they leave the feeding tube out or reattach it.

[donotpassgo]

53. I thought conservatives wanted LESS GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION???

n/t

[demdave]

56. I thought liberals were for health care and against the death penalty

or at least cruel and inhumane treatment...say, like, STARVING AND DEHYDRATING SOMEONE TO DEATH!!!

[Changenow]

62. Conservatives get to pick whose suffering

they care about. This one lady can create an illusion of compassion on the part of Jeb, when the truth is that he would step over the body of a cancer patient denied treatment on his way to sign the this legislation. There is credible medical debate about even whether this woman can even feel pain, but there is no argument that cancer patients suffer enormously, but their suffering doesn’t matter because they are poor and awake, right?

[demdave]

64. You are right, let her die because everything isnt fixed to your

satisfaction. When faced with an issue do you always change the subject? Is that your only forte, complaining? The woman is being starved to death and you want to wait to act until cancer patients get free chemo????? Pardon my language..but WTF?

[Changenow]

67. Let me assure you that this debate is about money

if she couldn’t afford this treatment, regardless of who is going to pay, she would be dead already. Medical decisions about the placement of feeding tubes are made every day without any fanfair.

If, as you claim, this debate is about human suffering, and then why not stay on point. My point is that conservatives don’t give a shit about human suffering. This poor woman is the just a poster child for the hypocrisy of the imaginary compassion of conservatives. There are people who are wide awake who are known to be suffering horribly and their suffering is meaningless to the right.

What you really don’t get is that there are people who can’t get a good breath because of conservative policies. Right now today they are smothering because they need medicine to enable them to breathe. Some will die today, suffocate today, but since they are a awake and are known to be in agony their deaths don’t matter to conservatives.

All that distinguishes them from this poor woman is that they understand their predicament, but there is no "right to life" movement to save them or even make them confortable. There won't be any emergency legislation to make sure they get medical treatment. You can't pretent to care about this woman and the morality of discontunation of feeding while ignoring the imorality of letting others die in agony, they are connected like it or not.

It can't be known whether this woman will suffer at all as a result of the removal of medical treatment, but since that is a concern narcotics could be provided to prevent even the possibility.

[wetbandit2003]

57. there were 150 k E-mail petitions to the governer..

There were about 150K E-mails written to the governer..Yesterday!
I would have to say that the ruling that the judge had made to remove the feeding tube from Terry Schiavo was a blatant violation of human rights because she was not terminally ill. I think that if you were to read the actual story behind this you will find that the husband had already hooked up with and knocked up another woman while Terry was in the hospital. He does not care about here well being anyway. Also he was going to get the remaing amount of the 700K that was used to treat Terry while she was not in the hospital....Sounds like a motivation to get a Doctor to pronunce her, terminally ill and fight it in court to become rich quick...I would intervene on this too. This is wrong!!!!! Think about how painful it would be to be starved to death.....This is a legitimate avenue for government intervention.....

[donotpassgo]

65. I say leave it to the medical community and the courts.

What if keeping her alive is prolonging her suffering? I don't know. I'm not the expert. It's been over ten years since her accident. I would think, she'd have a breakthrough by now.

[northzax]

55. all this is evidence that your family cannot be trusted

to make decisions for you, should you not be able to communicate or make decisions for yourself. Everyone. think about these issues. Make a living will. Have a copy made for everyone in your family. keep at least one copy with two different attorneys. make a video tape expressing your wishes in every single eventuality. Your family can no longer speak for you when you are unable to, the Governor gets to do that.

Here's my question. If the governor can order a feeding tube put back in, if one person objects, can he order it removed if one person objects to leaving it in?

[wetbandit2003]

58. Get a living will

If you get a living will,,,,Your family cannot decide if and when you can be taken off of life support, or be recessutated, only you and the doctor.

[wetbandit2003]

Get a living will

If you get a living will,,,,Your family cannot decide if and when you can be taken off of life support, or be recessutated, only you and the doctor.

[wetbandit2003]

59. Get a living will

If you get a living will,,,,Your family cannot decide if and when you can be taken off of life support, or be recessutated, only you and the doctor.

[wetbandit2003]

60. Get a living will

If you get a living will,,,,Your family cannot decide if and when you can be taken off of life support, or be recessutated, only you and the doctor.

[jiacinto]

69. Good advice

nt

[corarose]

63. The Mother & Father should be in charge of her care

Give the damn husband a divorce and send him on his way!

[RobertSeattle]

66. RW hyprocisy and the husband

The castigate him for taking up a new woman while his wife was in bedridden. Um, like Newt Gingrich did?

[roguevalley]

70. We don't look at death reasonably.

They would rather she lie in a bed for fifty years and float in a twilight life than go to peace.

We starve people because we don't have other alternatives. But we do
put people into the electric chair in Florida and fry them because we have to be tough on criminals.

We're complete hypocrites because people are flawed and they don't think and its really no ones business but the principles. There will be no right decision. There will be no good decision but utilizing the laws that were in place, the family's appeals are done. He won the right to decide for his wife.

The money everyone is talking about is used up for caring for this girl. She is coming to the end of her insurance, etc. ride. What then? Who among them, who among us will take care of her, a completely helpless person whose dignity died along with her choices thirteen years ago?

No one wins here. But the family and husband have the right to see who prevails. He prevailed. No one else should step in.

I mentioned on another thread about a woman in a coma who was pregnant. She had to be aborted to save her life. Total strangers came in and tried to get custodianship over the family. They didn't care about HER. They cared about their own values and point of view.
They lost after making a suffering family fight like TIGERS to keep control of her future.

If you can allow bush to intrude here, you cannot complain if some stranger intrudes in other situations.

This is a miserable, terrible thing made worse by BUsh.

[Guaranteed]

71. BREAKING- Judge won't hear husband's protest.

Judge signing into law the bill that will allow them to re-insert feeding tube.
:)

[janx]

74. From one of the courts:

http://www.jud10.org/2ndDCA/jan01/2D00-1269.htm

The evidence is overwhelming that Theresa is in a permanent or persistent vegetative state. It is important to understand that a persistent vegetative state is not simply a coma. She is not asleep. She has cycles of apparent wakefulness and apparent sleep without any cognition or awareness. As she breathes, she often makes moaning sounds. Theresa has severe contractures of her hands, elbows, knees, and feet.
Over the span of this last decade, Theresa's brain has deteriorated because of the lack of oxygen it suffered at the time of the heart attack. By mid-1996, the CAT scans of her brain showed a severely abnormal structure. At this point, much of her cerebral cortex is simply gone and has been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid. Medicine cannot cure this condition. Unless an act of God, a true miracle, were to recreate her brain, Theresa will always remain in an unconscious, reflexive state, totally dependent upon others to feed her and care for her most private needs. She could remain in this
state for many years.