Fla. appeals court upholds ban of veil in driver's license photo

[Eugene]

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/orl-bk-freeman090705,0,2758466.story?coll=ny-leadnationalnews-headlines

Fla. appeals court upholds ban of veil in driver's license photo

The Associated Press
September 7, 2005, 6:33 AM EDT

DAYTONA BEACH -- A Muslim woman who wanted to wear a veil in her
driver's license photo must follow a Florida law that requires a
picture of her full face, according to a state appeals court.

The Fifth District Court of Appeal upheld a 2003 ruling by an Orlando
judge that Sultaana Freeman's right to free exercise of religion would
not be burdened by the photo requirement.

"We recognized the tension created as a result of choosing between
following the dictates of one's religion and the mandates of secular
law," Appellate Judge Emerson R. Thompson Jr. wrote in Friday's
15-page opinion. "However, as long as the laws are neutral and
generally applicable to the citizenry, they must be obeyed."

A message left early today for Freeman's attorney, Howard Marks, was
not immediately returned.

The Florida Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles issued
Freeman, 38, of Winter Park, a license in 2001 showing her veiled with
only her eyes visible, but later suspended it.

more...

[saigon68]

1. What about the LONE RANGER?

[LostinVA]

2. That only covers the area around his eyes, not his face

So, that MAY be alright...

[saigon68]

22. Where is Simon Jester when we need him?

LOL at your comment --- witty

[pinniped]

25. Damm near spit on my LCD screen.

If Kato didn't get an exemption like the Lone Ranger then it's racism!

[LostinVA]

26. Hmmm... didn't think of Kato

I think he would be okay. Maybe Aquaman too. But the Flash? No way -- his head is covered. Batman, too. Gotta see the hair and chin, folks!

[Spangle]

3. They need to be a little clearer on this

If she takes the veil off for a photo.. she also needs to realize that IF pulled over, she will have to show her face to prove it is her.

If she refuses (and she will) then she needs to be arrested. She will refuse, because the why "luck" will have it.. it will be a male police officer. Unless a FEMALE police officer is on the scene, they shouldn't be made to wait until a female shows up. If she WANTS and DEMANDS a female.. she will get that during the processing of her arrest at the jail.

She NEEDS to understand that. OFFICERS need to understand that, so when the event happens.. And sadly, it will for some stupid reason. Karma, most likely.

This same exact issue will come up. This time it's about taking a photo. Next time, it will be because the cop is MALE. A 2 second verification process would be considered forcing her to do something against her religan. This needs to be address NOW.

[northzax]

6. it is addressed

it seems to me to be a reasonable requirement that driver's licenses, which are a priviledge, not a right, can reuquire certain physical identification requirements, a photograph is a benign physical idendification that is required of everybody. if you want to drive, and the state requires a photograph on your license to do so, it doesn't seem unreasonable.

She needs to recognize that whe will be asked to remove items blocking her idetifiable characteristics when she needs to present her proof of legal license to operate a motor vehicle.

[William769]

21. I agree.

[conservdem]

28. I agree too.

This is reasonable and the right thing to require.

[napi21]

4. As well as they should have!

The reason a photo is on your DL is to PROVE IT REALLY YOU! I'm old enough to remember when your DL was just a piece of heavy paper (or thin cardboard) with your name, address, DL#, and State issued info.

Womem can't drive (as far as I know) in the arab countries that require women to wear veils, so it's never been a question.

[MADem]

10. That's how underage kids got into BARS!!!

You'd borrow someone's cardboard license who had a "close enough" physical description, memorize the data (when the bouncer's smelled a rat, they'd ask you when your birthday was, address, all that detail) and you'd be in like Flynn!

Nowadays, you have to do a Barbara Pierce Bush (the twin, not George Washington) and get a fake license....

Women can drive in Iran, and they are being farty about hijab there nowadays. In Saudi Arabia, they still can't drive, though.

[Shipwack]

16. Arab women (veils and all) can drive in Bahrain

Many Saudi women come here on the weekends to "practice"...

To be honest, I don't know if they have to take off the veil for the driver ID photo... They obviously don't have a Saudi driver's license, and they aren't required to have one when they drive here. I'll ask next time I'm at the office.

[kdmorris]

19. Here's the one article I could find on it

But I remember it being listed in the Sun Sentinel once:

http://www.cfif.org/htdocs/freedomline/current/guest_commentary/sultaana_freeman.htm

The pertinent paragragh is:

Florida has gone to great lengths to accommodate women of the Muslim faith, including allowing them to be photographed in a private room by a female photographer. Even outspoken advocates of the civil rights of Muslims have agreed that the state’s identification interests are obvious. In reference to Freeman’s challenge, Mazen Sukkar, a Lebanese-born immigration attorney, told the Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel: "This is not Muhammad Ali refusing to kill during a war. This is one individual who wants to practice her religion and undermine the whole idea of identification." Not to mention the fact that women are required to unveil for photo identification by the governments of such Muslim countries as Iran, Egypt, the United Arab Emirates, Oman, Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, and Jordan.

It only specifies "photo identification".

[wakeme2008]

5. Show your face you can drive

if you do not want to show your face, don't drive. simple.

[wallwriter]

7. I give a pretty wide lattitude on religious issues, but

This is an open and free society, and a hallmark of that is the willingness of people, even the necessity of people to show their faces.

Our society must grant people very wide freedoms for religious expression, but I think, given the nature of public safety in an open society, that this goes too far.

Also, if she is so observant that she cannot uncover her face, what is she doing driving a car anyway?

[LostinVA]

8. Agreed -- this is a security/safety issue

Like a passport. It's an identify card AND a permit to do something (drive).

[Not Me]

9. I live, (and drive, and bike) in Orlando

and I would like to know that someone coming at me has full view of the road. No one should be allowed to drive with the impairment that this veil would provide.

All the other ID issues notwithstanding.

[Shipwack]

17. Face not necessarily totally covered....

Most women I've seen here don't cover the eyes up (though some cover the entire face...)

Interesting explanation of the subject...

[Mairead]

24. "if she cannot uncover her face, what is she doing driving a car"

The two things aren't connected in Islam, you know. Only in the lunatic false-fundy parts.

Actually, the custom of veiling is the strongest possible criticism of nominal-Muslim men, since The Prophet (pbuh) said that no man is a proper Muslim unless he treats every woman with respect. Veiling is an attempt to fend off unwanted--thus disrespectful--attentions.

[WinkyDink]

11. Driving is not a right,

nor is it an obligation.
Sorry, sister. Take the bus.

[JVS]

15. I wonder if she'd be able to get a bus pass without photo

[LisaL]

27. Yes.

[DiverDave]

12. If I was her, I wouldn't want anyone to see my face either

Snip:

Following her 1997 conversion to Islam, Sultaana Freeman (formerly Sandra Keller) was arrested in Decatur, Illinois for battering a foster child. Freeman, 35, pleaded guilty in 1999 to felony aggravated battery and was sentenced to 18 months probation.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/sultaana1.html

So, she gets religion, then beats kids, then wants to hide her face.

Well, she should be ashamed to show her face.

Beating. Kids.
Yeah, a model citizen. SHEESH.

[politick]

13. She sounds

like a nutjob opportunist loony toons batshit psycho.

Just my impression, though.

[marshall]

14. Why is she driving?

I'm surprised she is allowed to drive if she has to wear a veil.

Maybe they would let her keep a piece of tape over the lower half of her face in the photo so that it is not seen by male officers. Then if she is stopped she can ask that a female officer be summoned to pull the tape back.

I realize it's a crazy probably unworkable solution.

[illumn8d]

18. No problems here...

That's a pretty common sense decision.

[steely]

20. I agree - it's a photo of your face

[onager]

23. I see a lot of Muslim women driving in Egypt...

And I've never seen one driving with a veil covering her face. They have their hair covered, that's all. (I've spent 2 months over there recently.)

I lived in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia for over 2 years and (of course) never saw a woman driving.

Once some women...including a Saudi princess...drove themselves to mosque on Friday as a protest.

That caused a huge uproar. The local English-language papers carried long editorials denouncing the whole idea, and saying "Western-style" protests would not be tolerated. The women were all arrested.

The joke that went around among the Westerners: the only way they found out women were driving is because the women did something no male driver would ever do. They stopped to ask for directions.

Oh, and near as I could tell, there were only 2 requirements for a driver's license in Saudi Arabia: be male and not quite legally blind.