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DUreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 07:21 AM
Original message
Malaysian PM Repeats Charge About Jews
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-3290130,00.html



BANGKOK, Thailand (AP) - Despite criticism by
President Bush and other world leaders, an
unrepentant Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir
Mohamad repeated his charge that Jews control
the world.

In an interview published Tuesday with the
Bangkok Post, Mahathir stood by his earlier
statements on Jews and said the global reaction
``shows that (Jews) do control the world.''

``Israel is a small country. There are not many
Jews in the world. But they are so arrogant that
they defy the whole world. Even if the United
Nations say no, they go ahead. Why? Because
they have the backing of all these people,''
Mahathir was quoted as saying.

Mahathir, who retires at month's end after 22
years as the leader of mainly Muslim Malaysia,
often makes acerbic speeches against
globalization and U.S. policy in the Middle East.
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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 07:38 AM
Original message
Guess he wasn't sure we heard him the first time...
eom
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
1. And he is right - to the extent that the US backs Israel.
Can you imagine what would be the stance of the US if a small Arab country had been the focus of years of Middle East destabelization and had acquired WMD, and had defied UN resolutions by the pocket-full? Add to this the fact that this small Arab country has no oil and I think you would see what the US response would be. WE would have "taken out" that little Arab country long ago, but because the country is the "Judeo" half of "Judeo-Christian" we support them regardless of their actions or their policies. To whatever extent the US can be said to "control" the world, to that extent one can say that Israel does because of the US's ardent support.
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wakfs Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Hmm
I believe you left out the part about the small country in question being continually attacked and invaded by surrounding hostile neighbors since the country's inception, capping two thousand years of continual abuse and mass murder of its inhabitants' ancestors.

Forgot that part I guess, huh?
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Say what?
Unless you live on Bizzaro world like the neocons, It's Israel that has been the agressor for the last 20+ years.

Israel's Invasion of Gaza
http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/2003/01/27/42568_.html
Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1978
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1967to1991_lebanon_1978.php
reports from Israel's Invasion of Palestinian ...
http://oznik.com/news/020314.html
Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982
http://www.sf.indymedia.org/news/2003/06/1621818.php
etc, etc...

Not to mention an Atomic weapons program
Spying on american interests
The attacking of an American Naval ship, resulting in far more deaths than the attack on the USS Cole.
The bombing of another country's nuclear reactor
Attacking targets in Syria

So, can you name the nations that have invaded Israel in the last 20 years?

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wakfs Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. Okay, I'll bite.
Not quite within the somewhat arbitrary 20-year time limit you've set, but here goes:

1973 Yom Kippur War
Shortly after midday on Saturday, October 6, 1973, Egypt and Syria launched a concerted military attack against Israel. They had chosen to attack on Yom Kippur, the holiest day of the Jewish calendar, a day when most Israelis were in synagogues praying and fasting.

1967 Six-Day War
Again, Egypt and Syria provoked this war. Syria continually attacked Israel from the Golan Heights while Egypt moved troops into the Sinai near the Israel border and blockaded the Straits of Tiran. As Egyptian President Nasser said on May 30, 1967: "The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel...to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not declarations."

Wow, quite a FEW countries listed there, huh?

And lest we forget the Palestinians' stated goal of the destruction of Israel. But I guess blowing up innocent Israeli civilians in buses and crowded restaurants and markets doesn't count, right?

I wonder if the people who blindly side with the perceived "victims" of oppression ever look at BOTH sides of the issue. Plenty of blame to go around in the Middle East, that's for sure, but where's your outrage on the various African, South American and Far East governments that abuse their citizens? Where's your outrage at the British presence in Ireland? Where's your outrage at the anti-worker economic policies here in our own country? Why do all the "outraged" DUers seem to only focus on Israel and not these other places?

Hmmm, I wonder....
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. No You Didn't Bite, You Made Your Own Rules.
First you had to go back 30 years, now since 1983 which Arab countries have attacked Israel.

And let's also not forget Sharon's pledge to "eradicate" Arafat, and the wall being built, so that there now can be Palestinian Ghettos, as
in the Warsaw Ghetto.

How about F-16's being used to kill innocent Palestinians, but I guess in your world that does not count.

Where is the outrage? It's there, you just have to look for it. Perhaps you can explain Israel's alliance with South Africa during it's aparthied government, were the Israelis trying to learn how to deal with a population that outnumbers them.

And as for South America, for the most part it was US foreign policy that put most if not all of those dictators in power, the same can be said for Sotheast Asia as well. Now the US looks the other way, and says nothing about our new allies in Uzbekistan, you know the place where the government has been accused of boiling their opponenets, or having them shot "while trying to escape", but recently a State Department report on countries such as Uzbekistan was white washed so that our allies who are using there unique laws to get terrorist suspects to provide information, would not be embaressed.

As for England it's finally learned that you cannot fight terrorism with military force. It may take time but Northern Ireland might actually be free one day.

As I stated the outrage is there, and can be found at other sites as well, you just have to look for it. It's true not all Jews want to rule the world, and not all Israelis believe that the only answer is perpetual killing on both sides, but unfortunately those currently in power don't really give ratspit about what the people want. They have their own agenda, and they will push it forward no matter how many innocents on both sides have to die for it.

So where is your outrage?
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wakfs Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. Oh I'm outraged alright
I'm outraged that with all the horror going on in the world, some folks prefer to focus on the crimes of the government of Israel which, in case you hadn't noticed, is SURROUNDED BY COUNTRIES THAT WANT TO DESTROY IT, and we all know it's because of religious differences. Argue anyway you want, but this is the truth.

I'm outraged that you deliberately picked a 20-year time limit because you knew that technically speaking, Israel has not been "attacked" as in attacked and had a major war by its hostile neighbors. I'm also outraged that you and others seem to absolve Israel's enemies of all responsibility for the current conflict.

I'm outraged that some people seem to care more about some foreign country than our own country, which is hemmoraging jobs like an open wound and transforming itself into a third-world country, placing me and millions like me in the awkward position of having to downgrade our living standards in spite of our best efforts to the contrary.

I'm outraged that capitalism has been allowed to spread with almost no limits to the rest of world, enriching the already rich and slowly ruining the lives of millions of ordinary people. The global economy is BAD BAD BAD for the United States, BAD for you and BAD for me.

I'm outraged that you would defend Arafat, who practically invented modern terrorism and has, with the help of naive and well-meaning but misinformed people like you, rehabilitated his image as a "freedom fighter."

To be quite honest, I don't care if Israel and the Palestinian Arabs kill each other to the last man. I'm exhausted with the entire problem.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. I'm outraged that blind Israel love still reigns supreme
Wakfs, are you a Christian or a Jew? Just curious, seeing as how these are the two groups of people most unwilling to acknowledge the crimes of Israel with the same fervor that they will criticize everyone else.


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wakfs Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. I am unaffiliated with any religion
Mostly because I blame religion for most of the world's ills, the problems between the Israelis and the Palestinians included. However, my religious affiliation or lack thereof is irrelevant. I could just as easily ask you if you're a Muslim or an Arab, then state that most Muslims and Arabs are unwilling to acknowledge the crimes of the Arab countries in regard to Israel. Doesn't do anybody any good and simply foments further animosity.

The simple fact of the matter is that the nation of Israel was founded as a Jewish state, a place for Jews to call their own. Israel has a very serious problem in that regard, namely that unless they take steps to the contrary, Jews will no longer be in the majority. Like it or not, that is the fact and that is a real issue to Israel.

I do not condone Sharon's bullyboy tactics nor the expansion of Israeli settlements, but seeing the issue from Israel's point of view, how would YOU maintain Israel's "Jewish" character? This is a legitimate problem for Israel.

I also do not condone terrorism in any form that results in the slaughter of innocent civilians. In short, blowing up busloads of women and children won't get you your own country. End of story.

There is simply too much bad blood, in my opinion caused originally and ultimately by religious hatred, for there to be a solution that will please both sides. Frankly, I would rather see a Palestinian state founded with Jerusalem as an open city, a shared capital. See if THAT doesn't make the problems go away. I rather suspect it won't, though, because it appears that the Palestinian terror groups such as Hamas simply don't want Israel to exist at all. How about acknowledging THAT crime?
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. Religion
Religion has little to do with the conflict in palistine. Occupation is the reason. Occupation and continued oppression.

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ikojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #29
45. If Israel will not be a Jewish majority state in decades
it is because Jews don't have as many children as the Arabs. No conspiracy here. The Arabs tend to be poorer and less educated than the white European Jews. Statistics show that the more well educated and more well off have fewer children. Another thing contributing to the decline in the Jewish population in Israel is that many Israelis no longer live in Israel. Why are Israelis leaving Israel? Some never return or do not intend to return. Why?

If Israel or the world wants to reverse the Palestinian and Arab baby boom lets educate the women (a key to lowering birth rates) and help the Palestinians set up an economy.

Before I am labeled an antisemite I should advise that I am Jewish. I am not a self hating Jew and I attend services on a very regular basis (way more than two times a year).

I believe that when a government has gone astray as has the US and Israel then its abuses need to be brought to light. It does not mean I hate the US or Israel. I just believe both countries are not living up to the best they can be.

Remember Jews are called upon to be a light unto the nations. I think Israel's light has dimmed a bit.


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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #29
54. Look at what you said here, waksf....
"Israel has a very serious problem in that regard, namely that unless they take steps to the contrary, Jews will no longer be in the majority. Like it or not, that is the fact and that is a real issue to Israel."

That is the same argument used by segregationists in this country to keep African Americans from living freely and equally along side of the rest of us immigrant-descendants. There was a census figure that came out that said white/anglo-saxons are now the minority in California. OOOOOOO!! Scarey!!!

Why don't the Israelis and Muslims just start learning to get along??? ALL of them??? "PEACE", "brotherly love", "neighbors"..."Dems and repukes". We may see things differently than our neighbors, but ....until the extremists took over...we all managed to have a pretty great country!!

Majority rule, minority rights....if it's broken, fix it!! Pull together rather than pulling apart....

There needs to be a new paradigm in the world, and it can start right here on DU.

Nobody can condone anything about Arafat's past...he's a terrorist. So is the president of OUR country, in the eyes of the rest of the world (and a majority of DUers, for certain.).

It's TIME. NOW is the time, for there to be a new way of looking at "majorities", and "power". Henceforth, "majority" and "power" needs to mean "the group responsible for bringing the greatest peace, prosperity, justice and happiness to the greatest number of people, and protecting the rights of all in the process."

Visualize PEACE in the world. It starts in each person's mind.

:kick:






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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #29
59. Yes - Israel was founded. On STOLEN land.
NT!

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Jorje Bzsch Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #19
32. open your eyes a bit......
The FACT tell the whole story... so we dont just claim baseless...!!, we
dont hate you, but we hate people who didi this, see by your eyes.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/


Breakdown of Deaths Israelis Palestinians
Children Killed
(as of Sep. 3, 2003) 101
Remember These Children 463
Remember These Children
Civilians Killed 629
IDF 2,247+
HDIP
People Assassinated 1 279
HDIP
Bystanders Killed in the Course of an Assassination - 135
HDIP


2,202 Palestinian homes have been completely destroyed by Israel
(14,436* partially destroyed) and only 1 Israeli home has been destroyed by
Palestinians since September 29, 2000.

60+ new Jewish-only settlements have been built by the Israeli
government on confiscated Palestinian land between March 2001 and July 11,
2003.

185 Palestinian schools have been shelled or fired upon by Israelis
and 2 Israeli schools have been fired upon by Palestinians since September
29, 2000

23,776 Palestinians and 5,958 Israelis have been injured since
September 29, 2000.

The Israeli government and military receive $15,139,178 from the U.S.
every day; Palestinian NGO's receive $568,744 from the U.S. each day.




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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #19
41. There are....
.... simply no "good guys" in the mideast conflict, and a person has to have a major delusions to think there are.

Screw the whole lot of them, they are all culpable.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
31. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
wakfs Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. No
I refuse to believe that anybody can be THAT stupid, ill-informed and filled with hate.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Jack The Tab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #31
42. Your ignorance is stunning...
You actually believe what is written in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion"?

You need some help, or some education. That despicable tract has been proved to be a heinous piece of anti-semetic trash long ago.

The fact that you believe this and base arguments on it is absolutely amazing in this day and age.



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Mal Donating Member (213 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. An 'Inception' achieved
by the forcible removal of the previous inhabitants, and the ongoing oppression and murder of those previous inhabitants ever since. All condoned by the West.
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Jorje Bzsch Donating Member (30 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #2
21. Guess Who is talking about invasions? and resolutions
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brainshrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Yes
Very true. Jews don't control the United States any more than the Hare Krishnas do.
There is no powerful Lobby representing Arabs as a race, yet Egypt & Saudi Arabia receive billions in aid. Oil is what controls all foreign policy in the US, not race, relegion or ancestry. We are equal-opportunity manipulators.
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DUreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. So Israeli policies can be used to blame Jews all over the world?
Come on.
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. They shouldn't be...
I agree, The majority of Jews have nothing to do with the policys and actions of Israel, But because Isreal declares itself the "Jewish State", the blame will be spread onto these innocents.

In much the same way America's violent and hateful actions give Christanity a bad name, Israel does the same for Judism.

Maybe not fair, not accurate, not deserved, but a fact non the less
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DUreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. A fact to be repudiated at every opportunity
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zonmoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
40. The jews
are simply the innocent victims of the zionists evil.
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. If protection of the state of Israel
is the qualifer, then the statement is true. If Hitler had taken over the world, then it would have been accurate to say "the Germans control the world" - even if all Germans didn't. I think that there is a (sometimes justifiable) knee-jerk reaction to any statement made regarding Israel/Jews. Sometimes the statements are accurate and do not reflect any sort of racism or ethnocentricity, at all. To say that Arabs flew the planes into the WTC, is not a slander of all Arabs everywhere, it is just a factual statement (at least as far as we know).

If protection of Israel is a guiding principle of US policy, then Israel/Jews can be said to control the world. It may be a debatable point, but it is a point that can be made, justifiably.
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DUreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. I know it will continue to happen, but not justifiably.
That I would call rationalizing
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. I agree.
There is a bit of the "Mom likes you best" tenor to the PM's statement. I'll grant you that. And if he is saying that there is some kind of world conspiracy of hidden Jews pulling the strings of history and such claptrap, then he's delusional. But I think that one can make the argument that Israel is far to dominant, geopolitically, for it's size and power and that, essentially, is due to US support.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
27. No, but condemnation of the goverment should be LOUD AND CLEAR
No, it is wrong to blame "all Jews" for the policies of the government. But the governement of Israel should enjoy LOUD AND CLEAR condemnation from every civilized country in the world, with the same force as these countries criticise Palestinians.

Terrorism is terrorism whether it is state sanctioned terroism or guerilla terrorism. Both are reprehensible and Dean is right - and even-handed approach not a "oh my god I love Israel so much I just soiled myself" attitude that the US currently has is what's needed.

It's like Al Franken said about loving America. The same thing applies for "loving" Israel. We should love it like an adult, not like a four year old loves his mommy, who never thinks mommy ever does anything wrong and anyone who says so is evil and bad. We should love Israel lik e adults willing to be honest.

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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #27
58. SHARON IS A WAR CRIMINAL!
HIS POLICIES ARE HORRIBLE, THE SETTLEMENTS ARE DESPIcaBLE, THE KILLING OF INNOCENT CIVILIANS IS DISASTUROUS, AND THE OCCUPATION MUST END!

REMOVE THE SETTLEMENTS! START A PALESTINIAN STATE!

That "loud and clear" enough for you? Now, if only Bush would say that...
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. Yes, he definitely is a war criminal.
NT!

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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
56. Not because of Jews.
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chiburb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
11. Krugman addresses this today:
Part of that balancing act involves reserving good jobs for Malay workers and giving special business opportunities to Malay entrepreneurs. One reason Mr. Mahathir was so adamantly against I.M.F. austerity plans was that he feared that they would disrupt the carefully managed cronyism that holds his system together. When times are tough, Mr. Mahathir also throws the Muslim majority rhetorical red meat.

And that's what he was doing last week. Not long ago Washington was talking about Malaysia as an important partner in the war on terror. Now Mr. Mahathir thinks that to cover his domestic flank, he must insert hateful words into a speech mainly about Muslim reform. That tells you, more accurately than any poll, just how strong the rising tide of anti-Americanism and anti-Semitism among Muslims in Southeast Asia has become. Thanks to its war in Iraq and its unconditional support for Ariel Sharon, Washington has squandered post-9/11 sympathy and brought relations with the Muslim world to a new low.

And bear in mind that Mr. Mahathir's remarks were written before the world learned about the views of Lt. Gen. William "My God Is Bigger Than Yours" Boykin. By making it clear that he sees nothing wrong with giving an important post in the war on terror to someone who believes, and says openly, that Allah is a false idol — General Boykin denies that's what he meant, but his denial was implausible even by current standards — Donald Rumsfeld has gone a long way toward confirming the Muslim world's worst fears.

Somewhere in Pakistan Osama bin Laden must be enjoying this. The war on terror didn't have to be perceived as a war on Islam, but we seem to be doing our best to make it look that way.



http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/21/opinion/21KRUG.html
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dfong63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. funny how the apologists for israel are always yammering about "hatred"
so now Krugman is complaining about Mahathir's suppoedly "hateful" words?

it's funny how apologists for Israel always hammer on the subject of "hatred". the topic may have started out as a discussion of Israel's violations of international law, of Israeli racism, or theft of land, or killing of innocents, but it always comes back to "hatred".

as if Arabs' emotions were a greater outrage than the actual atrocities committed by Israel. Israel stealing Palestinian land? "They hate us." Israel missile attack in civilian areas? "Look at the hatred!" Israel using military weapons unarmed protestors? "There is SOOO much HATRED."

HATRED???? well DUH, of course they hate Israel after all that Israel has done. OPPRESSION BREEDS HATRED, DUH. if Israel doesn't want to be HATED, then they should STOP oppressing the Palestinians, and GIVE BACK WHAT THEY STOLE.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #28
62. Thank you for stating the truth so clearly.
NT!

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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #28
64. This post (by a now-banned disruptor) is a copyright violation.
A copy of the article, reproduced in full without attribution in the above post, can be found here. The article is of a questionable perspective, of course. I'm removing the above post.

Thank you,
TahitiNut - DU moderator
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. He posts facts about the Israeli government's policies, so he's banned?
Edited on Tue Oct-21-03 10:11 PM by Zhade
Nice respect for the truth here. I can't believe that post was actually removed.

EDIT: My mistake. Copyright violation, I understand.



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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
30. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
wakfs Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. So much ignorance, so little time.
The reason Jews were persecuted by Nazi Germany is ANTI-SEMITISM.
Say it with me now. ANTI-SEMITISM. Blind rage against a people whose religion by definition keeps them somewhat apart from the rest of society, making them instantly DIFFERENT. Also, they made a convenient scapegoat for Hitler's power grab. Get a clue, read some history.

Your infantile and tiresome bleating about Jews hoarding money is offensive in the extreme.

Also, if you had clue one about anything, you would know that the trend in Western society among Jewish people is toward interfaith marriages.

Go to your local library and read up on those terrible awful hoarding Jews.
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FDRrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
15. His statement is self defeating
``Israel is a small country. There are not many Jews in the world. But they are so arrogant that they defy the whole world. Even if the United Nations say no, they go ahead. Why? Because they have the backing of all these people,'' Mahathir was quoted as saying. "

"There are not many Jews in the world. But they are so arrogant that they defy the whole world." Followed by "Because they have the backing of all these people".

SO IT ISN'T THE JEWS IDIOT!
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dfong63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. that's not a contradiction
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FDRrocks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. How so...
seems to me if he accuses the Jews of doing something because they are backed by alot of people, then the Jews cannot be blamed solely.
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dfong63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. read more carefully, and think harder
seems to me if he accuses the Jews of doing something because they are backed by alot of people, then the Jews cannot be blamed solely.

he did not say that they were "doing something because they were backed by a lot of people"; he said they could get away with it because they were backed by "these people". he also did not say that Jews were solely to blame. in fact, his other remarks made it clear that he does not believe that Jews are "solely" to blame.

in other words, you're attacking a strawman.
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #20
38. Well, what I hear him saying...
is that Israel defies a whole lot of people because they have the support of a whole lot of people. One could infer that he means it's unjust because Israel is defying a majority of the countries/people in the world that want them to act a certain way. But then he's also saying that Israel is backed by "all these people." Not just "these people"...but, a certain, apparently large, quantity of people. Another majority of the people, perhaps? Not necessarily, but it does seem inferred since he's talking about power.
He does seem to be infering majorities both ways, but, of course, that would be a contradiction. Unless countries could both condemn Israel and support them at the same time (or at different times, which is part of the problem with his argument). And I suppose it HAS been done before.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
23. This direct quote of his is dead right:
Edited on Tue Oct-21-03 12:07 PM by Selwynn
``Israel is a small country. There are not many
Jews in the world. But they are so arrogant that
they defy the whole world. Even if the United
Nations say no, they go ahead. Why? Because
they have the backing of all these people,''
Mahathir was quoted as saying.

That's absolutely the truth. Was "rules the world" the right way to say it? No. Was identifying his subject as "Jews" instead of "the government of Irsael" the best way to say it? No. But its still true.

There is no other country save the United States that is allowed to act so utterly wrecklessly and with such impunity as Israel. With the US at its side as its unquestioning "big brother" ally, the government of Israel essentially has total free reign to do whatever the hell it wants whenever the hell it wants to whomever the hell it wants.

Oh and by the way, the arguments Israel made for its take over of the west bank, which basically said that "we need breathing room," and its continuing state-sanctioned terrorism, human rights violations and violations of international law in the name of protecting itself, are really no differnt than the Nazis, who said the same things in 1938 and claimed to be acting out of the same need to "protect" themselves and all those who were out to "get them."

The irony.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
24. Israel critique taken from a 2001 paper of mine:
But perhaps the most serious source of tension between the United States and the Arab population of the Middle East is the special relationship between the United States and Israel. Popular government propaganda has gone to great lengths to characterize the Arab-Islamic people of the region as relentless (and senseless) haters of Israel with no solid basis for any legitimate claims. And in addition to this, the Judeo-Christian community has also too often sought to characterize the Arab-Islamic people as the enemy of “God’s chosen people.” But if we are to justly call ourselves true Patriots, we must examine the situation more closely.

The United States has never questioned its tolerance of Israeli actions – actions that the U.S. would tolerate by no other government in the region. When Israel took and occupied territory by force in 1967, we did nothing other than continue to develop a standing policy of arming and supporting Israel with no conditions on that support. The justification given for the occupation was hardly different than Adolf Hitler’s explanation of the need for “breathing room” a few years earlier, though the world was much less outraged due to the limited scale and location of the occupation and the status of Israel as a “special” state, both from a religious and political perspective.

The United States has also showed itself to be drastically one-sided in its sponsorship of the Israeli-Palestinian peace process. Rather than be committed to the Oslo peace accord and UN Resolution 242, which called for a “land for peace” doctrine through which certain land within the occupied territories would be exchanged for peaceful relations between Palestinians and Israelis, the United States acquiesced to Israel’s later rejection of the plan. Though initially agreeing to take steps to implement UN 242, Israel instead failed to take any steps towards those goals. Instead it has advocated a “peace for peace” process, in which no concessions are made of land forcibly occupied in 1967, but rather Israel agrees to “stop shooting if they (Palestinians) stop shooting.”

This position completely ignores the reasons for the shooting in the first place, takes no steps towards a policy of negotiation or “accommodation” and instead takes a strict “rejectionist” position consisting of an ongoing refusal to accept a Palestinian State of any kind. When the Netanyahu government took over in 1996, it refused to implement any of the agreements previously made by the former leadership. Instead, it embarked on a policy of further aggressive acts including expanding settlements, suspending Palestinian rights in East Jerusalem and closing territories. Current Israeli Prime Minster Ariel Sharon seems to be doing little to change those policies, and is himself the focus of calls from international human rights organizations for investigation into crimes against humanity while acting as Defense Minister (specifically, charges regarding the massacre of civilians in the Palestinian refugee camps of Sabra and Shatilla in 1982). All the while the United States has remained unflinchingly silent and demonstrated repeatedly to the regional Arab community its unwillingness to push its Israeli ally in to a position of dialogue and compromise with Palestinians. This is a further source of anger towards the United States in the Middle East region.

But far worse than the United States’ refusal to demand that Israel endorse the “land for peace” process outlined by the Oslo accords and UN 242 is the United States selective blindness towards countless cases of grievous Israeli human rights abuses, military crimes, and violations of International Law. While the years of conflict between displaced Palestinians and Israel have seen violence and atrocity on both sides, Israeli abuses and horrors barely get mention in official government statements and in the American press, while at the same time there is no end to reports and official reproach against the Palestinian aggression. In reality neither side has ever walked on moral high ground throughout the entire conflict, and if we were to be honest, we would question if there was any difference between Palestinian violence and Israeli violence apart from the fact that one is that one is labeled “terrorism” and the other is given official support under the name of (Israeli)government sponsored action. The United States strongly condemns one and remains silent toward the other. According to Bennis, “Washington’s willingness to ignore the Israeli threat in the Middle East strengthens the prevalent Arab view that the U.S. practices a dangerous double standard.”

In truth there is no difference between terrorism that sponsors suicide bombings in public restaurants and terrorism that sends military tanks and troops into Hebron with the mission of burning down homes and killing indiscriminately. Yet the United States’ support for Israeli violence has remained as unilateral as its condemnation for Palestinian violence. This glaring contradiction is difficult to characterize as anything but the most blatant hypocrisy, and as true Patriots we must critically examine the evidence of the situation.
In October of 2000, Human Rights Watch (HRW) prepared a report entitled, Israel, The Occupied West Bank And Gaza Strip, And The Palestinian Authority Territories: Investigation Into Unlawful Use Of Force In The West Bank, Gaza Strip, And Northern Israel. In the report, HRW described serious, sustained and numerous violations of human rights. The report is worth citing at length:

Human Rights Watch conducted a fact-finding investigation into the unlawful use of force against civilians by security and police forces in Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip, from October 4 through October 11. The organization found a pattern of repeated Israeli use of excessive lethal force during clashes between its security forces and Palestinian demonstrators in situations where demonstrators were unarmed and posed no threat of death or serious injury to the security forces or to others. In cases that Human Rights Watch investigated where gunfire by Palestinian security forces or armed protesters was a factor, use of lethal force by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) was indiscriminate and not directed at the source of the threat, in violation of international law enforcement standards. In Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip, the IDF regularly used rubber bullets and plastic-coated metal bullets as well as live ammunition in an excessive or indiscriminate manner. A particularly egregious example of such unlawful fire is the IDF's use of medium-caliber bullets against unarmed demonstrators in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and in some instances, such as the Netzarim Junction in the Gaza Strip, against medical personnel. These military weapons, which inflict massive trauma when striking flesh, are normally used to penetrate concrete and are not appropriate for crowd control.


Human Rights Watch also documented a pattern of IDF disregard for and targeting of Palestinian medical personnel and ambulances evacuating or treating injured civilians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, where the Palestinian Red Crescent Society (PRCS) provides medical services. To date, one PRCS emergency medical technician has been killed by IDF fire, and ten injured. The use of live fire against medical personnel interferes with the prompt treatment of wounded, and may in some instances have resulted in additional deaths.

Additionally on March 28, 2001, Hanny Megally of HRW addressed the 57th Session of the UN Commission on Human Rights and reported the following:

Human Rights Watch researchers in the West Bank and Gaza have documented dozens of serious human rights and international humanitarian law violations over the last six months.

Israeli security forces have committed by far the most serious and systematic violations. We documented excessive and indiscriminate use of lethal force, arbitrary killings, and collective punishment, including willful destruction of property and severe restrictions on movement that far exceed any possible military necessity.
The Israeli government refuses to investigate alleged violations committed during "war-like situations," in contravention of international human rights and humanitarian law.

Consider the killing of fourteen-year old `Ala Mahfouz. Last October, `Ala was watching clashes from the roof of his family home when he threw a stone that hit an Israeli soldier in the face. The soldier was evacuated, but a second soldier waited outside `Ala's home for more than an hour. When `Ala walked onto his balcony drinking a cup of tea, the soldier shot him in the forehead from a distance of fifteen meters. Soldiers then fired rubber bullets at `Ala's father and two neighbors as they tried to evacuate the boy, hitting all of them. `Ala died in a hospital. The soldier who shot him remained on duty, and witnesses told us that he openly boasted about the killing, and threatened to kill others in the household. (emphasis mine)


There can be no doubt that the United States’ silence towards Israeli abuses and its continuing unconditional monetary, military and political support for Israel fuels tension and hostility towards the United States among the Arab-Islamic population of the region. Our unconditional alliance with Israel is not fair, not just, and it is an additional cause for legitimate unrest in the region. As true Patriots we must call on our government to hold fast to a doctrine that makes military and political aid to Israel (and all other nations) conditional upon adherence to international law and basic human rights conditions. We must also recognize that the failure of our government to do this is a direct contributing factor to the anger and ongoing threat of violence against the United States. Moreover, though it may be uncomfortable to confront, we must accept the truth that our policies in the Middle East region, policies that exacerbate unrest, played a key contributing role to the terrorist attacks of September 11th.
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J B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
25. He's just copying Rush Limbaugh re: McNabb.
If people loudly disagree with him then it must mean he's right.

And the fact he can't get away with it does show there's a double standard - though it in no way changes that he's just as wrong.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Yes, I do agree that argument was very bad
People disagree with me... I must be right!

Sometimes it feels that way, but its not sound reasoning.
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demdave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
36. Nuke all of the Middle East
and let ever religion that wants to pray towards the eerie glow. Let the true believers do pilgrimages to the Holy Land and take on a certain glow of their own knowing that they will soon be with their God.
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wakfs Donating Member (565 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Finally some good sense!
Agree completely.
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Jack The Tab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. I see I no longer have to go to Free Republic to read shit like this...
What a completely ignorant thing to suggest.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. I Am Aghast At This Site....
Anybody who believes that Jews control the world should be posting at the BAD site and we all know what that site is or maybe folks who don't believe J-e-w-s control the world should be posting at the BAD site....
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dolstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
46. I don't know which is more alarming
the fact that, in this day and age, the leader of a country can openly voice such flagrantly anti-semitic thoughts, or the fact that so many self-proclaimed liberals around here actually agree with him.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Scary....
If you took a bunch of random facts about gays, African Americans, Hispanics, etcetera to make global conclusions you would be tombstoned...

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Resistance Is Futile Donating Member (693 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Pssst
Your persecution complex is showing.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. How So?
If you're implying I'm Jewish you're mistaken....


I'm a born again Christian..... Baptized by immersion ......
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Resistance Is Futile Donating Member (693 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #50
55. Persecution
You appear to be suggesting that this matter is being treated lightly because it has to do with jews rather than other minority groups (blacks etc). If you had been jewish, this would be a clear sign of a pesecution complex. Since you're not, however, it's just a sign of a lack of perspective.
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dolstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. No, you're the one who is lacking perspective
The fact is, the bar for what is acceptable in terms of anti-Jewish remarks is set far lower around here than anti-black remarks, anti-gay remarks and anti-women remarks. There's no contest. It's not even close. If someone made sweeping negative generalizations about homosexuals, they'd be branded a homophobe. If someone made sweeping negative negative generazations about African Americans, they'd be branded a bigot. If someone made sweeping negative generalizations about women, they'd be branded a sexist.

But if someone makes sweeping negative generalizations about Jews, they're as likely to be applauded as condemned.
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. Hello from Germany,...
I really start to doubt that any american did ever really study the Nazi-times in Germany. I don't know, how many times people here on DU were comparing Bush to Hitler.
But isn't there anyone here, besides you and democrat from birth, who did ever study the pseudo-critic on capitalism that made the nazis big in Germany. Like the leader of the socialist party in Germany said it, twenty years before Hitler: Antisemitism is the socialism of those, poor in mind. A few days ago, Mr. Bin Ladden was kind of celebrated here as a critic of the american way of life and capitalism...
What has become of the USA, if a german has to teach you about antisemitism? And no, I'm not brainwashed and our media isn't pro-Israel in any way, because of our past. Rather the opposite is true. From the right to the "left", everybody seems to be soooo concerned about what Israel is doing, I puke. Besides: wakfs, you're a great kind of guy, I'm really impressed. Please America, switch your brain on again...
Dirk
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #46
53. Did you get your check?
The one I was going to hoard from the Official Worldwide Jewish Conspiracy appears to be late.

Oh!

Wait!

My Jewish Batphone is ringing! I must get that in case it's an important message not to go to work!

:eyes:
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JoFerret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
48. May I suggest...
...reading the whole speech and not the media extracts. It does make a difference. Additionally - Paul Krugman lays out some context in the NYTimes today.
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Dirk39 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
52. Heil Hitler or what?
"There are not many Jews in the world. But they are so arrogant that they defy the whole world."
Mahathir Mohamad

This is 100% nazi-speech. You don't even have to study psychology to get the message: The jews are weak (this is the reason, we hate them), they are the perfect victims for ignorant idiotic people, and at the same time, they are behind everything, they are everywhere. With all the schizophrenic mind of the typical fashist (middle class people, who are afraid to lose their position, while at the same time, would never ever really revolt), so they revolt against those, who are weak AND rule the world. And if these weak people are trying to defend themselves, the Nazis of tomorrow discover human rights.
Dirk
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NIGHT TRIPPER Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #52
60. this is all ridiculous--you're "Pro Jewish"so everyone's a Nazi
The Jewish nation of Israel is a Fundamentalist State .
you sayThe jews are weak (this is the reason, we hate them), they are the perfect victims for ignorant idiotic people

Israel is weak?
The U.S. supplied them with nukes among other things.
They have one of the most powerful militaries in the world.
Israel is very agressive.

I will say that the statement that the Malaysian PM made is wrong because he said the "Jews" . He should have used the term "Israel".
But since Israel is not a secular govt., people interchange the terms.
He is wrong.
He should have said Israel instead of the Jews.
But that is one of the main problems with govts that are Religious Fundamentalist Regimes. The religion gets too mixed up with the government.

We are so againt Islamic Fundamentalism.
Why are we not also against Jewish Fundamentalism?????
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Nevernose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. Why should he have used the word "Israel?"
His comments were intended to be generally anti-Semitic, IMO, and not specifically anti-Israeli (I'm not a mind-reader, just going off what he said). Remember, according to the Malaysian PM, it's a "world-wide" conspiracy.

Besides, don't the Palestinians and Arabs of the region share much of the blame? Why limit it to Israel, or America's support of that country? Why not include Hamas, and Iran's support of them? How can we blame one without blaming the other?
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. Why? Because they represent two different groups.
To say "the Jews" is to accuse all Jewish people, everywhere, of complicity in and support for the illegal, terrorizing tactics used by the IDF against Palestinian civilians (water theft, land theft, bulldozing farms against the Geneva Convention, targeting journalists trying to cover the occupied territories, and on and on).

There are a huge number of Jews worldwide and in Israel itself, like the Gush Shalom organization, that abhor what the Israeli government is doing in their name. Many of these include people who have lost loved ones to suicide bombings (which are just as abhorrent as, say, IDF air strikes inside refugee camps).

The simple fact is that through the Israeli (American-funded) military the Likud government under Ariel Sharon, like many governments before his, systematically engages in the further confiscation of Palestinian land and resources and the abuse of human rights just as badly as those who blow up buses full of innocent Israelis (which often include Arab vicitms, since there are a good number of Arabic Israelis).

It would be, and is, wrong to blame all Jews worldwide for the brutal actions of the Israeli government. That is why the other poster's point is exactly right: had the term been "Israel" and not "the Jews", the statement would have been factually correct.

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #52
65. Israel has defied over 60 UN resolutions.
That seems to be pretty defiant of the world to me.

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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-21-03 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
67. I'm locking this thread.
The "discussion" is no longer specifically relevant to the article and has become inflammatory. Those who wish to discuss I/PA affairs are encouraged to do so in that forum.

Thank you for your understanding and cooperation,
TahitiNut - DU moderator
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