Widespread Riots Erupt in Belfast

[Placebo]

At least three police officers were wounded Saturday as Protestant extremists threw homemade grenades, gasoline bombs and other makeshift weapons in fury over a restricted Belfast parade.

Protestants clashed with police, British troops and Catholic crowds in several parts of Belfast after authorities blocked the Orange Order — the territory's major Protestant brotherhood — from parading past the hard-line Catholic end of the disputed Springfield Road.

On the nearby North Circular Road, three officers were reported injured by flames and shrapnel when Protestants hurled at least three homemade grenades, called "blast bombs," and gasoline-filled bottles at police lines.

Officers there took cover behind their armored vehicles after hearing bursts of automatic gunfire, although nobody was reported hit by bullets. Later, riot police equipped with body armor, shields and flame-retardant boiler suits repelled the attackers with British-style plastic bullets — blunt-nosed cylinders also known as baton rounds — and mobile water cannons.

More...

[zanne]

1. Oh no.

Not again. Has this thing gone beyond religion AND politics? Is it just a matter of territory?

[bribri16]

18. But I thought the world was safer since Saddam was toppled? n/t

[DemBones DemBones]

53. It's a matter of history

as well as of religion and politics. The fight goes back centuries, like the Croats and the Serbs, the Shii'tes and the Sunnis.

[CountAllVotes]

2. Belfast is another hell pit

full of racism, greed, etc. etc. etc. ad infinitm. :(

So much for the *new* Ireland eh?

:kick:

[Maple]

11. New Ireland

is the Republic of Ireland...it's an independent country, and doing very well.

This is in Northern Ireland, still part of the UK.

[CountAllVotes]

14. I am very aware of that fact

However, it is still IRELAND to the Irish people. It always will be part of Ireland like it or not.

This is an 800 year old problem. The Brits won't leave. The fighting goes on.

When, when will it ever stop?

It affects everyone in Ireland as peace has yet to fall on Irish soil.

[Maple]

15. It will eventually be

all one country again.

And the Orange Lodge knows that...this is a 'last stand' kind of deal.

[CountAllVotes]

17. maybe so but when?

There is no simple solution for this "problem". It is a racial/religious problem. It truly sucks for all of them, ALL OF THEM.

Ireland belongs to the Irish people and the Irish people are quite aware of this.

However, Belfast is a real mess. You would not believe how 3rd world the conditions are there, believe me on that one. It is truly shocking and the "new" Ireland (the Republic) needs to either reject that part of their country or embrace it I believe.

However, for now, these types of events continue to go on as they have for 800 years now. I have no real hope of seeing an end to this in my lifetime. It is one big :wtf: to me. :(

:kick:

[Maple]

21. It won't be long now

and it's not racial/religious, it's nationalist. English vs Irish.

The Irish have no intention of giving up part of their country. And the Orange Lodge...from the original English/Scottish settlers sent in there to 'break up the Catholic concentration'... are slowly being outnumbered.

[ShockediSay]

23. Maybe Bush should invade since we are 'at war with terror.'

Stupid sloganeering yields disastrous results.

1,896 members of the U.S. military dead in Iraq.

[Maple]

24. LOL wrong crowd

These are white protestant rural conservative guys...Bush's base type of people, not brown folk.

You don't bomb 'your own'

[ShockediSay]

37. Never mind.

Emily Litella

[CountAllVotes]

25. outnumbered?

by who exactly? The main religion in Ireland is now Zen Buddhism FYI. The Catholic church is a thing of the past for the most part. It was the plan ... we have a religion but it is neither Protestant nor Catholic. Seems there are some diehard Catholic left, but not enough to outnumber a population that has half of its citizens less than 30 years of age.

[Maple]

27. LOL cute.

but cute stories are hardly to the point.

[bettyellen]

69. catholic birthrate has been outstipping the protestant birthrate for years

now in NI, so apparently the votes will be there someday for a political solution.
as for the zen birthrate, LOL. i think it's the fastest growning religion- in free ireland, but not the biggest. although that would be pretty funny if it was.

[brentspeak]

22. The Republic of Ireland doesn't want Northern Ireland

And the English people doesn't want to deal with Northern Ireland any further. Nobody wants the headache of 1,700,000 squabbling, impoverished people.

[Maple]

26. Yeah they do

That's the purpose of the whole thing.

Although I'm not surprised it's giving the English a headache...but then they caused it in the first place, so it's their own fault

[brentspeak]

29. Most of my Irish friends tell me that the country would rather not

Uniting with the Irish Republic may be the dream of the Catholics on the Northern side, but it's not a dream shared by the people of the Republic. If the IRA really wanted to sell Northern Ireland to Dublin, it should have thought twice before engaging in paramilitary violence (same goes for the Loyalists re. England).

[Maple]

30. Well that's been the purpose

from the beginning...and you'll note it's called the 'Irish Republican' army. Not the Northern Ireland Independence army.

Most of the weapons come from, and are stored...in the republic.

Your friends notwithstanding, and apparently they know little Irish history, the fight for Irish independence continues.

[CONN]

31. nonsense - poll results here - my irish friend and relatives ...

<snip>
A 1999 survey found 86% of Irish voters still wanted to unite the island
<snip>

More at:
www.guardian.co.uk/Northern_Ireland/Story/0,2763,540092,00.html

My family, friends, cousins, ... are all in Ireland... and while not 100% on many issues, expect and want a united Ireland. So there:)

[ourbluenation]

62. Well I'm Irish and I have to disagree with you...

The people in the republic may be tired of the politicsc of it all, but make no mistake, we want a united island again.

[Lochloosa]

43. Flood them out....

just saying

[Southsideirish]

74. Friggin' Orangemen who persecuted my ancestors won't ever give up.

My mother grew up in Northern Ireland and knew first hand about the institutionalized religious discrimination there.

[anotherdrew]

3. first time they've stopped the orange march thru the Catholic area?

the march thu that area has always been a shameful act. A pathetic display of primate behavior, I'm glad it was finally stopped.

This may be the end of hostilities now, rather than reignite the battles, I think the vast majority will be appalled by their behavior. As they should long have been and, I think, have been.

[LostinVA]

8. Agreed -- it has been a despicable act

[Greeby]

4. I've got a question to anyone living in the Republic of Ireland

Do you guys really want THIS as part of your country? Coz I know I don't want it as part of mine. Lets just cut it adrift and float it out to sea

[niceypoo]

5. What is it with these people and their frigging PARADES?

[belle]

16. Seriously. It's like a little kid throwing a tantrum. Except, deadly.

[Psephos]

28. Throwing a tantrum by throwing a gasoline bomb

This is what's meant when one is accused of lacking a sense of proportionality.

Peace.

[Henny Penny]

9. Still sore about the footie eh? ;-)

As the end of the marching season draws in, I guess these people must have their last hurrah.... after all, there was probably just a bit too much cross-community togetherness happening on Wednesday, that had to be nipped in the bud!

[CONN]

32. Ah yes, a great NI soccer victory over England

And in Belfast!

[tinfoilinfor2005]

39. You can't cut off the teddy bear's head. N/T

[bettyellen]

71. it's some of the most beautiful land, better soil and weather than the

west. and it's their ancestral home. that's why they fight not to be treated as croppies in their homeland.

[Warren Stupidity]

6. So will there be a hue and cry for the disbandment of the UD/UDF etc.

and demands for public repudiation of violent loyalist extremism by their associated political organizations?

I thought not.

[fedsron2us]

7. The UDA/UDF is already outlawed

It was declared an illegal organisation in 1991.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Defence_Association

[Warren Stupidity]

58. It continues in various forms, e.g. UPRG

and continues to have close ties to the Ulster police and continues to have close ties to various rightwing political organizations in N.I. The point is that there is a double standard. Whenever the remnants of the IRA do something shitty there is a world outcry led by our compliant media. The rightwing loyalist bastartds pull off some crap and there is a big nothing.

[Teaser]

10. As a son of Ireland...

I'd like to see the rest of the country dig a large trench around all of Ulster and try pushing it out to sea.

How can they still be fighting over something so moronic?

[ecoalex]

It's about Religious in your face expression, same God extreme stupidity

[ecoalex]

13. It's about Religious in your face expression, same God extreme stupidity

[CONN]

34. And abandon all the good people?

[Maple]

12. The Buckle in the 'Bible Belt' of Northern Ireland

'Northern Ireland is slipping into the kind of civil strife where people cannot tolerate the presence of their neighbours, and it is being demonstrated at primary schools. Two Catholic schools in the area were burned in arson attacks within 24 hours last week. The head of Northern Ireland's community relations council has said the police patrols are unsustainable, adding that many people would soon start to feel they could only live in Ballymena with UN-style protection.

Ballymena is the buckle in Northern Ireland's Bible belt, the seat of the Paisley family and a place that has been likened to 1960s Mississippi. It is rural, conservative, mainly born-again Christian and predominantly Protestant. Catholics make up about 25% of the borough.

Ballymena's most famous Catholic son, the actor Liam Neeson, has recalled having to shelter inside during Orange parades in his youth.'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1563260,00.html

[jwirr]

33. Damn all right wing Christians no matter where they

live. They make me ashamed to call myself a Lutheran. Their god is not good.

[CONN]

35. Ethnic cleansing -> wipe out the native Irish

Seems it's picked up pace since the IRA made their commitment to disarm and SF is trying to avoid any controvery.

[two gun sid]

19. Paisley and Empey got exactly what they wanted...

and I see that the good Rev. Paisley is blaming nationalists for loyalists rioting. All week leading up to this march the DUP and UUP leaders have been "forecasting" UVF gunmen causing violence. I guess they are pretty happy now. They'll use this as another way to stall power sharing with Sinn Fein.

Goddamn these marches and The OO. This shit needs to stop. Get the fuckin' Peace Process back on track and end this cycle of violence that has destroyed 3 generations of Irish, both Loyalist and Nationalist, since the latest Troubles began.

[struggle4progress]

20. Protestant crowds clash with police in N.Ireland

BELFAST (Reuters) - Protestant demonstrators clashed with police in Belfast on Saturday, hurling blast bombs, petrol bombs and bricks as trouble flared after a contentious parade by Orangemen near a nationalist area of the city.

Heavily armed riot police fired baton rounds and used water cannon to try and disperse angry crowds on west Belfast's Springfield Road, while officers also came under attack from stone throwing mobs in parts of the north and east of the city.

"We have come under sustained attack in a number of areas of the city. So far we have reports of three officers injured," a police spokeswoman said.

She said what was believed to have been machine gun fire had been heard on the Springfield Road, where a car had also been hijacked and set on fire by the crowd of around 500 protesters. <snip>

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-09-10T171049Z_01_WRI061738_RTRUKOC_0_UK-IRISH-RIOTING.xml

[CONN]

36. Catholics forced to flee as teenagers are used to mount campaign of arson

It began late one night when Kathleen McCaughey's front door was kicked down by two men who stormed up the stairs shouting: "Taigs out."

"Aren't you going to call me an Orange bastard?" asked one of the men when Mrs McCaughey, 51, who has epilepsy, came out of her bedroom in her dressing gown.

After five months of attacks including petrol and paint bombs and a poster campaign calling her a republican scrounger, she was given a few hours to clear her house and leave the village of Ahoghill in Ian Paisley's North Antrim constituency.

Protestant children had been paid £5 each to sit on her front lawn banging drums until she caved in. If she did not go, she was told, her row of houses would be burned down.

The town of Ballymena and its surrounding villages are in the grip of the worst wave of anti-Catholic sectarian attacks for years and the police have been forced to adopt the same tactics as the UN uses in Kosovo: guarding Catholic churches, schools and Gaelic sports clubs at night to stop them being torched...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1563260,00.html

[maveric]

38. Fuck them! You see why I support the IRA?

They're just rubbing shit in the faces of the nationalist catholics who still have to live under foreign occupation.

This is similar to the KKK marching in black neighborhoods in the south.

[CONN]

40. I agree with you

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BooScout]

61. The IRA are a bunch of thugs....

They are extremists who try to justify their use of violence in the name of religion. I don't support Catholics who do it, nor Protestents, nor Fundie Christians nor Muslims for that matter.

I am sick to death of violence because of religion in this world. It's a pox on us all.

[Maple]

63. First find out

what and who the IRA are. And what they're trying to do.

They aren't promoting religion.

[BooScout]

72. I am very much educated on the situation in NI...

The entire situation in NI is mired in religion. Catholics vs Protestants. Frankly a good many of the citizens of NI are fed up with the extremists from both sides.

BTW, my BIL served in Northern Ireland for 2 tours and my husband lived with terrorist attacks by the IRA in the UK for years. Please don't even try and tell me to find out about the IRA........I would wager I know a wee bit more than you.

[Maple]

73. Then you'd know

it's not about religion.

It's about nationalities.

England invaded Ireland and remained as occupiers.

The republic finally won it's freedom.

Now it's NI's turn.

Kindly don't tell me a one-sided view, and expect that to overcome a thousand years of Irish history

[BooScout]

79. It's not a one sided view.......

It's simply a pragmatic view.

Are we talking Irish history here or the history of the IRA which is relatively speaking pretty recent considering the age of Ireland? If you want to inject history into it, Ireland was Pagan before it was Catholic. The Protestants now residing in Northern Ireland are just as Irish as the Catholics residing there.

Don't assume I am taking sides either because of my husband's British citizenship.

I simply don't care for terrorism in any way under the cover of religious reasons, and religion, like it or not is at the root. When the lines were drawn to form the Republic of Ireland........the majority of the Catholics were in the south and the Protestants in the north. It's a split based on religion, not nationality. Your argument is quibbling.

[Maple]

81. Yes, it is

Ireland was invaded. They are fighting the occupiers.

I am well aware of Ireland's history...and yes, the IRA has been around for quite some time.

The protestants currently in NI were sent in by the British in the 1600s to 'break up the catholic concentration'

Sent specifically to make trouble. They are the current Orange Lodge

It's not terrorism the IRA is engaged in. That's Bush's word for his present difficulties.

One man's 'terrist' is another mans freedom fighter.

The English were Protestant. The Irish were Catholic. The protestant king William of Orange beat the Catholic king James at the Battle of the Boyne in the 1600s. That's what it's about...English vs Irish...the religions are just symbols of nationalism, since you can't tell them apart any other way.

N Ireland was and is Catholic, and there have always been Protestants in the Republic. The 'line' was drawn because the Irish kicked the English out.

[BooScout]

82. Look back up the line to my first post....

I also stated that I didn't support any Protestant Extremists either. My fervent wish for NI is peace and if that peace means Home Rule then all the luck to them.

BTW, the British are not occupiers........they are conquerers (Now don't go off on me again....I am simply stating facts)....Britain Conquered Ireland.

The line was eventually drawn through treaties and not violence. As a matter of fact it was drawn to avoid additional violence. Death and destruction are not always the best policies as we all well should know in this country.

You will never convince me that a secret organization responsible for the deaths of hundreds if not thousands of innocent civilians is anything better than thugs.... whether they be the IRA or Loyalist Extremists...they both have acted out of religious hatred. We will have to agree to disagree on this one....I have enjoyed the discussion though. Good night.

:)

[Maple]

83. Wishing doesn't make it so

and they've had home rule since 1920.

The British are indeed occupiers. Have been for a thousand years. And they've now been pushed out of most of Ireland. The northern counties are next.

The line was drawn due to the Easter uprising of 1916.

The IRA isn't there to be a peace movement...it is an army. And it's job is to send the British packing.

Sorta like...hmmmm the Americans did.

We don't disagree on it at all. You're simply wrong. :7

[muriel_volestrangler]

84. If you're going to put it in terms of the kings William and James

then it's obviously Protestant v. Catholic. William was a Dutch Protestant, who gained the English (and Scottish) thrones solely because he was a Protestant. James was a Scottish Catholic, who had held the English throne, before being deposed precisely because he was a Catholic. Neither had any Irish connection at all, beyond the fact that England controlled Ireland. They were in Ireland because James wanted to raise an army capable of taking back his English throne. There was no Irish nationalism in it then.

[CONN]

77. 2 tour BIL was a terrorist...

Having lived in a middle class (native Irish) neighborhood in the 70s in NI it was fascinating the number of times they Brits came and forced my elderly grandparents out of their house while they "searched" it. No one in our family was physically harmed or taken to one of the concentration camps.

The British came over in the early 70s to reinforce the status quo which was threatened by the NI Civil Rights protests. They had a chance to do the right thing and failed. They were involved in the murder of many innocent people.

[BooScout]

80. Nope....he was ordered to go....

I never said he liked it, but when in the Army and when ordered you go........and I do agree that the British failed for many years in NI, the violent arm of the IRA certainly never helped matters either as a matter of fact.

[Southsideirish]

75. My dad was a proud IRA man from County Galway. He fought in the 1920's

for Ireland's freedom.

[two gun sid]

78. I would love to talk to your Dad....

I would be interested in what he thought of the present state of affairs in the Six Counties and the Free State. Do you think he would support the dump arms order?

[amandabeech]

41. Will this flare up force Blair to withdraw even more troops from Iraq?

I realize that the violence is at least somewhat seasonal, but could this be the start of another general restart of the "troubles?"

I always feel very badly about this, being English, Irish and Scottish in ancestry, among others. I know it's stupid, but I feel at war with myself.

[Maple]

42. They just removed troops

from NI, and I doubt very much if they're keen to send them back in.

In any case, it's autumn.

And this is a police matter.

[CONN]

44. In June they had more in NI than Iraq

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4094818.stm

7,500 in Iraq
Northern Ireland: 11,000

I know they've been moving out of NI since this was published in June.

[Maple]

46. Yeah, August I think

removal of the towers and so on. Right after the IRA said they were ending the armed struggle anyway.

[CONN]

45. Paisley an MP is angry that the parade was blocked from Nationalist area

<snip?
DUP head Ian Paisley blamed the Parades Commission for not reviewing the route that barred it from a nationalist area.

The parade was re-routed to avoid the mainly nationalist Springfield Road area.

After a request by unionists on Friday, the Parades Commission reviewed its ruling on the route, but decided not to change it.

"The commission treated elected representatives with contempt by its refusal to even call us to put our case," said Mr Paisley. <snip>


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/4233850.stm

[Joey Liberal]

47. Irish Protestants are just like USA republicans

Both are evil.

[fedsron2us]

49. Wolf Tone was a Protestant

http://www.irishclans.com/articles/famirish/tonetw.html

Was he evil ?

[Joey Liberal]

50. No, he wasn't evil

But those sorry bastards that insist on parading through Catholic neighborhoods are evil.

[muriel_volestrangler]

51. Thanks for getting a little more specific

Blanket statements like "fuck the Brits" aren't exactly helpful. We don't come here and say "fuck the Americans", we say "fuck Bush". If you want friends around the world, it's better not to insult them all.

[replacement]

55. Especially given how much support re-unification has in the UK...

41% of mainland Britons support Irish unification and only 26% actually want to keep NI part of the UK.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Northern_Ireland/Story/0,2763,540092,00.html

[replacement]

54. Robert Emmet and Charles Stewart Parnell, too...

http://www.ireland-information.com/articles/robertemmet.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Stewart_Parnell

[Henny Penny]

56. No, that is too much to claim about either group!

There are of course elements of both that are evil, but the vast majority are not.

[truthisfreedom]

52. i do so love civil riots. it's just so... smart.

maybe some deviled eggs?

[hadrons]

57. no Blacks, so this is why I haven't seen this on TV

[NorthernSpy]

59. funny how rioting white folks are never taken as evidence...

... that whites as a group "lack values", or are "uncivilized" or belong to a "pathological" culture.


:eyes:

[alcibiades_mystery]

60. Peace process needs constant tending

[tabasco]

64. The British and their lackeys need to get the fuck out !

The British occupation of N. Ireland is a disgrace. They steal the land, pack those counties with colonists, than have the nerve to say a referendum of 51% will restore those counties to the Republic.

Fuckers. The Irish need a Ghandhi.

The British need to undo their crimes and enforce a pullout of those who wish to remain UK citizens, and give the northern counties back to Ireland !

[Tom Bombadil]

65. If only that were possible.

Unfortunatlely the Ulster Loyalists have been in Northern Ireland for centuries, probably longer than your family has been in America. And you're talking about repatriating over a million people to where exactly? England doesn't want them, we're overcrowded enough.

If we're talking about unwriting history's wrongs why don't you leave America and hand it back to the Native Americans.

[tabasco]

66. The entire acreage of Indian lands in the USA

is about 100 times the size of the island of Ireland.

Ireland wants its island back !

They are not asking for an entire continent. They only want their island.

Quite certain that the colonists have been there longer than my family in USA. The intentional famine imposed by the British was the reason my ancestors came here.

[Tom Bombadil]

67. Agreed. Ireland should be united, and eventually it will be..

But the reality of the situation is that there are over a million loyalists who cannot simply be forced to leave. It's practically impossible.

[Southsideirish]

76. Great sentiments, "Tom", also you have a great name!

T.B. is one of my favorite characters.

[Chicago Democrat]

68. Viva Anarchia!

:(

[mbperrin]

70. Well, at least no one is being sent to see the Dalai Lama...

for more info, see Idaho about the horrific effects of the Dalai Lama on school children and the American way of life...........