Senate panel OKs bill giving Bush power in feeding-tube case

[demdave]

October 21, 2003, 3:34 PM EDT

TALLAHASSEE -- The state Senate debated a bill Tuesday that would give Gov. Jeb Bush the power to order a feeding tube be reinserted in a brain-damaged woman in defiance of courts and her husband.

Schiavo's feeding tube was removed Wednesday. Doctors have said she will die within a week to 10 days without nutrition and water.

Bush said he would immediately sign legislation into law if he receives it Tuesday and order the feeding tube reinserted. ``This is a response to a tragic situation.'' Bush said. ``People are responding to cries for help and I think it's legitimate.''


http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-fschiavo21xoct21,0,23471,print.story?coll=sfla-home-headlines

[phillybri]

1. I thought conservatives wanted gov't OUT of their private lives!

:wtf:

[demdave]

3. I thought liberals were for health care and against the death penalty

or at least cruel and inhumane treatment...say, like, STARVING AND DEHYDRATING SOMEONE TO DEATH!!!


But don't let that get in the way of your insightful analysis of the subject.

Can we move beyond rhetoric and sound bites and actually discuss this. What do I care what consevatives say about this woman?

[Guaranteed]

23. Agreed. n/t

[spotbird]

35. Dave you are saying the same thing everywhere, but please justify

the conservative position on "life."

[Hawkeye-X]

4. True hypocrisy.

Thine name is hypocrisy.

Hawkeye-X

[Guaranteed]

21. No, conservatives mean

"pocketbooks" when they say "lives," because to them, money is life.
Everything else, like your sex life, your social life, and your life itself ought to be controlled by them.

[Javneh]

2. Dare I say it?

How would his family behave if it was Jeb on the feeder tube? And what business is it of the state to interfere in matters such as this anyway? This should be a family matter only

[Hawkeye-X]

7. The hubby will challenge the law

and have the Fl SC strike the law. This law was made because Jeb said so. The Fl SC should overturn it and say it's a family matter, not a governmental matter.

Hawkeye-X

[jiacinto]

10. This is murder here

I support the right for people to refuse artifical life prologning devices. However, this woman didn't leave a DNR order or a living well. It's also clear that her husband stands to inherit a six figure sum upon her death. The doctors are also split on whether she can be rehabilitated or not.

This is murder. That's how I see it.

[democrat in Tallahassee]

13. she has been in a coma 10 years; how can she be rehabilitated?

Jeb needs to keep his nose out of this and do something for people who aren't fetuses or in a coma.

[jiacinto]

27. The doctors were split in their opinion

nt

[mcar]

36. No, the doctors were not split in their opinion

I have been following this case almost from the start. Many of you who are posting about this have only recently started to follow it and I can tell you, the coverage has changed dramatically.

In the first place, the media (St. Pete Times and others) has consulted with physicians and bioethicists who are completely independent of this sad situation (meaning that they have not been hired by either side) and who have been unanimous in saying that there is no hope for this woman. She is brain dead. She cannot be "trained" to swallow, she has had years of therapy and there is no chance for anything vaguely resembling recovery.

She is not disabled, she is so severely brain damaged as to be considered dead. Early reports on this, from 5 or more years ago, revealed that she suffered the heart attack because of a severe eating disorder -- that is something that is never mentioned today. It is only recently that all this character-assasination against the husband has been going on. And, the claim by one poster that the husband is going to be charged with manslaughter is ridiculous. The feeding tube was removed via a court order.

Let's have some compassion here. Would you want to "live" like that. Plus, she has been in a hospice for years. Hospices are places for people to die. If she was not considered terminally ill by physicians, the hospice would not have taken her.

About a year ago, a dear friend of mine suffered a massive heart attack and brain-stem stroke (at age 43). The doctors told her husband there was no hope so he never authorized a feeding tube. Even so, she breathed for 5 days until her body caught up with her brain. She left behind 2 young daughters and a large, loving family. It was a horrible time for all of us keeping vigil. She had been a vital woman who was full of life.

I cannot imagine what this family, husband and parents, have gone through but this feuding is hateful, hurtful and undignified. Terri Schiavo should be allowed to die with dignity.

[NashVegas]

32. I Disagree

This woman has been in a vegetative state for 10 years. To forcefully keep her alive at this point is cruel to everyone involved. Are Jeb Bush and all the people clamoring over this going to pay for the medical expenses of keeping this body alive?

[bluedog]

8. I can add something here

At 1:00 Sat or Sunday..the republican voters at this vigil outside Hospice tore up their voting cards..it was on local tv...also jeb was getting e-mail at last count was 150,000 until the server was shut down..

This special session was not Called for this case..it was another matter wanting to give jeb $$$$ money to get a CA firm here to create jobs..

Believe me he did not do this out of the goodness of his heart!

[DBoon]

5. Ironic

We can madate Federal intervention into keeping alive a severely brain damaged woman with virtually no signs of conscious activity for years

But cannot provide basic health care for millions of conscious, working citizens.

[realFedUp]

6. Bush shouldn't be given any power in this case

imo.

[StClone]

9. Lucky the Brain dead

Compassionate Conservative attention is a good thing when it makes you feel good but means little more than cheap theatrics. Where's the compassion for the fully alert disenfranchised, poor, and vote deprived non-Cubans in Florida?

[jiacinto]

11. This is not as clear as it sounds

This woman didn't leave a DNR order or a "living will" in writing. Her husband also stands to inherit a significant sum of money from her death.

[curlyred]

12. She's not brain dead or comatose, either

Severely brain damaged, yes. Married to a money grubbing hypocrite who wants her out of the way so he can inherit the money dedicated to her care, yes.

She smiles and responds to her parents. Her husband has refused to provide therapy for her that could potentially increase her capabilities because it would mean spending some of the money he has been awarded for her care.

[KuroKensaki]

17. No

He refused to provide that therapy because other reputable doctors have told him it won't work.

She doesn't smile or respond. She blinks, randomly, an unconscious reaction, and her face is in a half-smile at all times because that's the way her muscles are frozen.

[jiacinto]

19. Yep

That's the crux of the matter.

[KuroKensaki]

15. You're right

You're right, it's not as clear as it sounds. It is Terri's family that claims Mr. Schiavo stands to inherit a lot of money. The Schindlers cite a successful $750,000 malpractice suit over Terri's injury, which would go to Mr. Schiavo on her death.

She has spent more than a decade in the hospital. She has had several surgeries. She has round the clock nursing care. Most of that money, which was earmarked for Terri's medical expenses, is already gone.

The Schindler family has violated numerous court orders in their visitation of Terri. They've visited her without permission from Mr. Schiavo (he took out a restraining order because they were interfering with Terri's medical care and sending doctor after doctor to examine her, hoping to find a few who don't think she is in a persistent vegitative state). They've recorded video of her after a court order demanded they stop.

Terri is in an unrecoverable condition. Her brain is still alive, but it is no longer connected with reality. She may be able to see, hear, sense, but she cannot comprehend. The family's claims that she is recoverable are wishful thinking. The only reason she doesn't require ventilation is because her medulla oblongata (the portion of the brain that allows instinctive, unconscious behavior such as breathing and heartbeat) is still intact.

Terri is gone. She is never coming back. And were there some way to -humanely- allow her to die, Mr. Schiavo would take it. But surprise, euthanasia is a no-no. Meaning we can't -kill- Mrs. Schiavo, we can only -let- her die. Meaning starvation and dehydration.

The Schindlers have been trying for 13 years to teach Terri how to eat and drink on her own, with no success. If she could learn that, she could live indefinitely at home. But that's not something she'll ever be able to learn.

I firmly believe in the right to die, and the right for family members to grieve and move on. Mr. Schiavo is being put through more than his wife is. His wife died 13 years ago, he's just been prevented from moving on.

[jiacinto]

20. I think it is not clear

She didn't leave her wishes in writing. I don't feel comfortable with letting this woman die.

[KuroKensaki]

24. And?

Doctors, judges, and her husband do. Her husband does not stand to inherit as much money as you think, so don't go into some conspiracy theory here.

Look at it from the husband's point of view.

Your wife has a sudden heart attack. In surgery, trying to save her, a doctor ends up starving her brain of oxygen and causing her to enter a persistent vegetative state (PVS). Every doctor you talk to tells you she will never recover (except the doctors -hired- by her severely partisan family).

Some time passes. You try to move on. You meet someone new, have a child with her. You want to restart your life. You try to divorce your vegetative wife. You're disallowed. So you keep living with your girlfriend, unable to marry her, while your wife lays in a hospital bed for 13 years, unable to ever recover.

This is assuming she -didn't- really give a verbal DNR agreement to her husband. If she -did- give such an agreement (and there is no real reason to doubt the husband's credibility, at least nothing beyond wild allegations), then it's a rather open-and-shut case.

If there were a way to allow Mr. Schiavo to divorce Terri and relegate Terri to her parents' care, I would support it. But I think he has gone through enough.


PS: And honestly... I've heard one post saying 'the family said Mr. Schiavo could divorce Terri and keep the money, if he'd just give her care to them'... Even if you -are- a conspiracy theorist, what -possible- motivation could Mr. Schiavo have for not taking a deal like that? He gets everything he wants and is no longer 'saddled' with Terri.

The problem is the one-sided, sound-bite debate going on over this topic in the news.

[jiacinto]

25. You make Schiavo sound innocent

And frankly I don't see it that way. He doesn't want to be stuck with taking care of his wife. Pure and simple. He stands to inherit a good deal of money. He has a girlfriend and a child with another woman. And his wife is "simply in the way".

Yeah I am suspicious of his motives.

[KuroKensaki]

28. Stop it!

Stop going on about this whole 'six figure windfall' deal! It's -not true-! That's been your entire argument, so far as I've seen.

And can you blame him for wanting to marry his girlfriend with whom he has one child and another on the way? Can you blame him for wanting an end to a 13 year nightmare?

Terri Schiavo -died- 13 years ago. As someone else in another thread said, she is dead dead dead dead dead dead.

Removing her feeding tube is no different than taking someone off a ventilator. In the first case, it is killing them by starvation. In the second case, it is killing them by suffocation, just as much as if you held a pillow over their face and squeezed. "Pulling the plug" can -always- be interpreted in that way. But the truth is, Terri -can't- eat on her own because she -can't- act on her own.

She's gone. Mentally, spiritually, she's dead. Physically, she's still here, and legally, she's still here. Which only puts a great burden on everyone who's involved and still alive.

[jiacinto]

29. That's not my entire argument

She didn't leave anything in writing. She left no DNR order or living will.

If she had done that I would have no problems with him doing it. But frankly, without it, I have no idea what his wife really wants. And that is wrong to me.

And I do have issues with her husband. I think he does have ulterior motives here.

[mcar]

38. Most people in their 20s don't have living wills

That doesn't mean that she and her husband didn't discuss the matter. Or, that her husband would know her well enough to know she wouldn't want to "live" like this. I know I wouldn't and I have a living will saying so. That said, a living will doesn't mean squat if the family doesn't want to abide by it. Terri could have had it in writing and her family could still be fighting it.

Face it, the parents have lost in every court. Are these judges all wrong? Are they all murderers? Jeb and his minions in the legislature are fighting this for the attention and the political points with the fundies.

In the meantime, thousands of people in Florida go without basic medical attention. In my son's elementary school, 50% of the children qualify for free/reduced lunch. And this is one of the best school systems in the state.

[atreides1]

22. Blah, Blah, Blah

Jeb Bush and the Florida Republicans stand to inherit votes to keep the state a one party state, one state under God, with liberty and justice for those who can afford it.

You know you've been harping on this "husband stands to inherit a significant sum of money from her death", thing on another thread as well as this one.

First the money is in a trust, and unless you're a psychic we don't know what the stipulations of that trust is.

He won a lawsuit in 1992, and the money was put into a trust for her medical care and rehab. Okay the rehab didn't occur, and she has been receiving minimum medical care since. Where the hell were her parents when this happened, why didn't they take this to court when it started.

They only took the litigation trail when he started considering removing the feeding tube. If as it has been reported that the money was to go for her medical care and rehab, why didn't it.

There are a lot of questions that have not been answered by either side. Now mom and dad are using emotion, and religion, and Jeb Bush and the Florida Republicans are only using this as PR for there own gain. It's too bad Florida didn't care enough about that little black girl who disappeared a few years back, but there was no political gain from that, and after all she was black. Just like the majority of voters that were purged from the voting rolls in 2000, and who for some odd reason have not had their names put back on the rolls.

If Bush had really cared he would have gotten involved with this case long before it came down to this.

[jiacinto]

26. I disagree with you

And your patronizing and snide post aside I am supicious of the husband's motives. He does stand to profit from his wife's impending death.

The woman didn't leave a DNR order or a living will. If she had left those doucments then I would not be opposed to his removing the feeding tube.

[janx]

33. I agree. And she did receive therapy. See the other thread

and M. Schiavo's statement. There is a lot of right-wing hysteria regarding this case.

I'll tell you one thing: I'll never live in Florida as long as Jebby and his right-wing cabal can run as rampantly as they have over the past several years.

[short bus president]

37. the husband has health care power of attorney

in this case. Should be end of discussion. Jeb and the rest of the religio-loonies should back the fuck off. End-of-life decisions are never easy, but politicizing them is a VERY bad idea. I daresay nobody on this board has the full details of this case (only what the various sides and factions choose to present). Every DUer's opinion on the matter is equally valid, and equally unimportant.

[alarimer]

39. I also read

That there was NO attempt at any sort of therapy. The husband won some kind of settlement and was supposed to use that money to help pay for her therapy and care but he did not allow any therapy of any kind. He simply wants her dead so he can marry his pregnant girlfriend. He is a first class scumbag.

[spotbird]

41. Amen.

Now if one is in a coma they can get forced nutrition but if they are just an ordinary suffering aware person, to hell with them.

[hedda_foil]

14. Not only isn't she not brain dead but her family wants to keep her alive.

If this were my daughter, I'd be against having the feeding tube removed too. She's conscious. She responds. She smiles. Yes, she's brain damaged, but she's still human. This isn't a liberal or conservative issue in my opinion. The husband lives with another woman (which isn't a problem in itself given his wife's condition) and is expecting his second child with her. The answer is not to cut off his wife's feeding tube, but to divorce her and let the money go for its intended purpose ... her continued care. That's all her parents are asking. I'm glad the state is on her side, Jebco or no Jebco.

[KuroKensaki]

16. Sorry but..

He can't divorce her. He's tried.

[marshall]

34. He's never tried to divorce her

Actually, he's never tried to divorce her--at least not after he found out he would be forfeiting her life insurance money. I did a search in Lexis Nexis and came up with dozens of articles that all mention the fact that the family has begged him to divorce her. They also claim that she told them that she wanted a divorce. I found no claim that he had tried unsuccessfully to divorce her.

"Michael Schiavo has refused to divorce his wife, saying that he fears her parents would ignore her desire to die if they became her guardians."

The Associated Press
October 15, 2003, Wednesday
SECTION: Domestic News
LENGTH: 666 words
HEADLINE: Feeding tube removed from comatose woman at center of long-running legal battle
BYLINE: By MITCH STACY, Associated Press Writer
DATELINE: PINELLAS PARK, Fla.

[roguevalley]

18. but she isn't your daughter. The family needs to hash this out

privately, using whatever means to settle this. They have. The husband has won the right to do for his wife. No one else has
the right to interfere. If this isn't sacrosanct for families,
then people -strangers even- have the same 'right' to interfere
with abortions, etc.

[chiburb]

30. Or trying to keep...

Elian in Miami!

[janx]

40. HA!

I had forgotten about that one...

[joycep]

31. I would hope that my family would pull my feeding tube long before this

I have a living will but even if I didn't, I would hope no one would keep me in this condition for a month even. Breathing is not living to me.

[joshcryer]

42. No facts in this thread.

Just emotion.