Patients put down (Euthanasia in New Orleans)

[norml]

Patients put down
September 12, 2005

http://network.news.com.au/image/0,10114,5046942,00.jpg
Submerged ... New Orleans

DOCTORS working in hurricane-ravaged New Orleans killed critically ill patients rather than leave them to die in agony as they evacuated.

With gangs of rapists and looters rampaging through wards in the flooded city, senior doctors took the harrowing decision to give massive overdoses of morphine to those they believed could not make it out alive.

One New Orleans doctor told how she "prayed for God to have mercy on her soul" after she ignored every tenet of medical ethics and ended the lives of patients she had earlier fought to save.

Her heart-rending account has been corroborated by a hospital orderly and by local government officials.

One emergency official, William Forest McQueen, said: "Those who had no chance of making it were given a lot of morphine and lain down in a dark place to die."


snip


http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story/0,20281,16566858-5001022,00.html

[belle]

1. Well, that ought to finally raise the ire/interest of the fundies.

[snippy]

8. Coat hanger republicans won't care about this. n/t

[Rex]

2. Prayed to God after killing someone.

Placed somewhere to die in the dark...alone?

[arwalden]

13. If This Story Is True, Most Likely The Patient Was Already Unconscious.

[poppet]

16. I read the whole article

Morphine was given to patients who were dying and in agony. The article also made the point that many patients had do not resuscitate orders and there was not much that could be done for them once the power failed. The article also pointed out that when morphine was given to a dying patient a nurse stayed with the patient until the patient died. It is actually common to give morphine in high doses to people who are in extreme agony and who are in the process of dying. My own father was given morphine in the last hours of his life to help alleviate some of the pain he was experiencing from the cancer that had spread throughout his entire body. What were they suppose to do? Let them suffer and be in pain for the days or hours they had left??

[jwirr]

58. My father was also given high doses of morphine in the end.

[Toots]

96. They sure wanted Terrisa Whats her name with feeding tube to suffer.

Life no matter how horible has to continue no matter what unless you are black.

[calimary]

100. That's what happened with my dad, and with my mother-in-law.

When they start the morphine drip (usually after removing the respirator in my dad's case, and withholding all meds and insulin in my mother-in-law's case) that's the beginning of the end. A nurse-friend of mine, who cared for my mother-in-law, said it's common practice - done to "ease the way." As she described it, it removes their pain and "helps them let go."

This is sad. But sadly understandable, and supportable. What were these doctors supposed to do? When they're in a hospital in a "ground zero" situation and there's no power and the generators have failed and they're running out of medication and they're overwhelmed by the great numbers of the sick and injured, and yes, the dying, what are they supposed to do? What are they supposed to do???

I agree with you, poppet. My father's transition from an overwhelmingly painful, near-comatose existence, in a condition from which there was NO hope of recovery whatsoever, was made easier and perhaps a little swifter. The last time I saw him, two days before he died, he was truly little more than a piece of meat lying there in that hospital bed with tubes and wires coming out of him all over the place. He was so sick from many complications of late-onset diabetes that there truly was no hope. Every day he lived on, if you could even call that "living," was nothing more than prolonging the agony for him, and those of us who cared about him. Even my mother, the "Queen of Denial," would shake her head in discouragement and repeatedly mumble "this isn't living. This just isn't living." Even she wanted the morphine drip put in.

Same thing with my mother-in-law. Her last two weeks were HORRIBLE. HORRIBLE. Same reasons, nearly-comatose, late-onset diabetes but also cancer that had metastacized all over her body, AND PROFOUND dementia on top of it all. In the days before this, when she could still communicate, her eyes were empty. She didn't know who I was. Didn't recognize my husband - her oldest son. There was nothing there anymore. My dad still had his wits about him til the end, but hers were gone. Just gone. Horrible. She couldn't be saved. She was WAY beyond any medical help. There was nothing they, or anyone else, could do for her. Nothing. They wound up putting her in a room with a patient who had really bad bronchitis, and then placing her on a morphine drip. Instead of the difficult breathing and struggling for days on end, she slipped away peacefully.

In both cases, I loved both these people, but I wouldn't have had it any other way. I wanted them to be able to leave. Sometimes the assholes (and yes. That's what they are. Insensitive, close-minded, heartless, dictatorial ASSHOLES) who insist on prolonging life at all costs - should just STFU - and go AWAY.

What were these people supposed to do? When doctors are forced into that ungodly situation in which they have to decide who lives and who dies, they have no choice but to use whatever wherewithal they have, however limited, to help those who have at least a realistic chance to be saved, rather than keep a hopeless case propped up indefinitely. A rotten situation to have to be in, having to make such decisions. But sometimes, as we've seen too painfully, it does happen.

I can't condemn these people. Not at all. If I were an MD in that situation, I'd probably have done the same thing.

[LostinVA]

18. No way should these doctors be criticized

As far as I'm concerned, they stuck by their oath. They stayed by their patients when they could have left and reached safety. Doctors could certainly have afforded to leave NO. They faced a very difficult decision and showed mercy and courage. They aren't the ones who abandoned their patients.

Goddess bless them.

[rainy]

53. hey lost, what part of VA? I live in Va Bch.

[Blue_Tires]

74. im also in va beach n/t

[KansDem]

112. I agree...what was the alternative?

Let them drown? Let them succumb to starvation? dehydration? Those "methods" of death might be more acceptable to the fundies, but those people died the instant Bush strummed his guitar and ate cake.

There was no rescue, there was no relief...they were "murdered" through negligence on the part of FEMA and the government. Let's be clear about this: the doctors didn't do the killing; the Bushistas did.

[President Kerry]

3. the doctors did the right thing. These deaths are the responsibility

of bureaucrats at FEMA. Hold them accountable!

[skooooo]

12. I agree...

If I was 85 years old, and feeble as hell, I'd rather get the morphine than to be left to suffer.

[NNN0LHI]

33. I don't think the age of the patients was given in the article

How about if you were 25 years old and had a 50-50 chance under normal circumstances and just might make it? Would you still take the needle?

Don

[Ilsa]

39. The age wasn't given, but anyone with a 50-50 shot at surviving

was not euthanized according to the article. Only those who were in the process of dying.

[NNN0LHI]

42. 50-50 "under normal circumstances" as I wrote could easily translate...

...into the process of dying under poor circumstances. But a person still might make it regardless. I apologize for not being clearer above.

Don

[TNMOM]

4. This is a fine example of Bush's 'culture of life.'

Maybe now, the fundies will see their emperor has no clothes.

[merwin]

5. That's not their decision to make. It's the patient's decision.

[lindisfarne]

14. The federal government already had made the decision to kill thousands.

The doctor did the right thing if the patients were in extreme pain and there were no pain killers available and the federal government wasn't sending in adequate resources to rescue them.

Remember Aaron Broussard's story about the man's mother in the nursing home who called daily asking to be rescued, and on Friday night, 5 days after the hurricane, people drowned?

THAT WAS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT'S DECISION TO COMMIT MURDER (edited to remove EUTHANASIA-which is compassionate) - to allow people to die a horrible death, terrified. Imagine if you were elderly, unable to move, and all you could do is watch the water rise.

There was no reason for Bush to wait until Thursday night to sign off on Northern Command sending in resources.

See thread here for BBC interview about Northern Command.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4725518

[Raster]

40. The * mis-administration left people to die. They left people to die.

This was not incompetence. This was premeditated, cold-blooded murder. Does anyone truly believe that if this were rich, white people they would have been treated anywhere near like this. All the * apologists can go fuck themselves. This was racist, elitist cold-blooded murder. There is blood on the hands of EVERYONE that has helped put bushco* into power and stay in power, "pioneers" and media whores alike. If you are a Christian supporter of bushco*, may God have mercy on your soul, something bushco* did not have for these unfortunate souls until the public outcry was too much for their ratings to bear. THEY LEFT PEOPLE, AMERICANS CITIZENS, TO DIE. There is no justification or rationalization. None.

[LostinVA]

19. The patients couldn't make the decision -- that's the point

Either the doctors morphines them up, OR the patients would have been left to die a "natural" death -- probably slow and painful. These doctors were put in a position they never should have been put it. THEY AND TO MAKE A DECISION. There was NO ONE else who could make it.

[merwin]

21. Or our govt could have gotten off their fat asses and medivac'd people

out.

[ramblin_dave]

6. This was posted earlier in GD, may be disinfo

This story - British families fear for US relatives mentions one (William) Forest McQueen as a grouds keeper. The same name is given as an "emergency official" in the above article.

[Hekate]

10. Good point; be very careful until it is known for sure

Personally though, I think I'd much rather "go to sleep" than drown. Unless you've actually been tossed in a wall of water and struggled on the edge of panic to breathe, don't judge too harshly the impulse to spare someone that experience -- presuming it is true at all, which it may not be.

Hekate

#Why won't the Chickenhawk cross the road?#
#Why isn't the Chickenhawk waitin' on the levee?#

[norml]

15. It was in The Daily Telegraph. I'm just passing it along.

It's news to me.

[KamaAina]

22. Not the Daily Telegraph of London, but a Murdoch rag in Australia

note the .au at the end of the URL.

Even the "Torygraph" would likely be a better source.

[muriel_volestrangler]

17. I think the two stories may both be true

as far as the description of Mr. McQueen goes. Compare "lives and works with his brother in the Abita Springs ... Forest hadn't been home for the last 24 hours because he'd been on shift clearing up trees and lines from all the wind damage that came before the hurricane" from the BBC story with "One emergency official, William Forest McQueen ... Mr McQueen, a utility manager for the town of Abita Springs". That seems to match.

How well he'd know what had been done in hopsitals is open to question, I suppose, if his responsibility is fixing utility lines.

[NorthernSpy]

31. cleaning up downed trees doesn't make him an "emergency official"...

... and even if it did, his duties on the cleanup crew certainly don't form ANY basis for his commentary on the medical protocol followed in New Orleans' hospitals.

My judgement: Mr. McQueen is probably one of those twits who have seized upon the current conditions to make themselves important. Gotta bask in the spotlight while it lasts, and claim that 15 seconds of fame, I guess.


:eyes:

[muriel_volestrangler]

37. downed trees *and lines*

which makes the description as 'utility manager' quite believable.

[NorthernSpy]

45. I wonder whether the Central Louisiana Electric Company...

... knows that some random groundskeeper is fiddling with their powerlines?

Apparently, in Abita Srpings, as in most other places in the US, line work is not something that town utility departments handle.

Besides, Abita Springs -- where McQueen seems to be on cleanup detail -- is a significant distance from New Orleans. People in Britain may not realize it, but as far N.O. hospitals are concerned, McQueen is hardly on the scene...

[iverglas]

88. it's one darned small town

http://www.townofabitasprings.com/content.php?About

I suspect that just about anybody on the payroll would be an "emergency official" in the event of an emergency -- especially someone with responsibility for utilities. And anyone at all who happened to be handy might have been involved in emergency evacuation events. I'm not a doctor, but if I'd been on the spot I would have offered all assistance I could, and since I'm a credible individual what I reported seeing should hardly be discounted just because someone else doesn't know what I was doing or why I was doing it.

I of course didn't see the article suggesting that any orderlies or utility workers were consulted about patient treatment, or see the individuals commenting on what was done. The two individuals in question seem to have merely reported their observations of the events, not their participation in any decisions made during the events.

Now, the Daily Telegraph being Murdoch and all that, one might want to withhold belief from anything not in quotation marks, disregard any allegations of fact extraneous to the main event being reported and not otherwise corroborated or substantiated, question whether corroboration of the facts in issue in the report should have been available if it wasn't provided and assess what to believe with the answer in mind ... and also refrain from impugning the character of any individuals in Louisiana whom the paper happens to refer to or quote, who could hardly be expected to know what the Australian Daily Telegraph is, or what use it would make of something they said, possibly to someone else entirely ...

It's an unfortunate fact of journalistic life that some people can only be quoted anonymously. A doctor admitting to actively ending lives probably would not agree to be named. A newspaper publishing her comments would want to be quite sure that it has the tapes to back up its report. I'd be surprised at even this newspaper making up words to put in a non-existent doctor's mouth. And I can't think of much reason for a doctor to make such admissions against her own interest, although it's possible she would concoct reasons for what she was admitting to doing -- but then, I can't think of much reason to think she would have done what she did if she didn't have reasons.

Their families believe their confessions are an indictment of the appalling failure of US authorities to help those in desperate need after Hurricane Katrina flooded the city, claiming thousands of lives and making 500,000 homeless.

I suspect the doctor feels the same way, in spades.

[iverglas]

90. and hey, here's a theory

There McQueen was, clearing downed trees in Abita Springs "in the build-up to Hurricane Katrina", and then after it hit he realized what a disaster was in progress in other areas near where he was ... and, having some skills to offer, he went where he could to help as he could -- e.g. to a hospital in the affected areas of New Orleans ... and that would kind of explain why on Wednesday, Sept 7, the BBC reported that his family in the UK had still not heard from him even though Abita Springs itself wasn't exactly a disaster zone.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/4222806.stm

Just an hypothesis, but about as reasonable as others one might come up with.

[iverglas]

93. and another non-credible report from a non-credible source

in a newspaper that must surely be suspect.

http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050911/NEWS08/509110346/1010

Helicopters eventually couldn't land on the parking garage because of continuous gunfire, Larson said. He said nights were filled with screams, shooting and Molotov cocktails, as roving hoodlums tried to burn down the refuge.

"No one would help us," said Larson, a former paramedic, who is now at his parents' Huxley home. "Everyone was saying 'What the hell is going on?'"

Oh yeah, a "former paramedic", and obviously one with some Republican axe to grind.

... Larson, a Tulane University graduate student ... had volunteered to stay in New Orleans to watch over the university's gene therapy center. The center is connected to the school's hospital, where Larson began volunteering when things got bad.

... "They had pretty good angles on us. They were shooting at the helicopters. They were shooting at us. They were trying to pick off the doctors, the patients," he said.

It got hopeless.

"They stopped all choppers from landing. We were taking too much (gun)fire. We tried to get people and kids under the limited concrete that we had," he said.

Most of the gunfire came at night. "It was pretty intense," he said. "We were thinking, 'Why won't anybody help us? These patients are going sour for nothing.'"

Just somebody else trying to make somebody else look bad. No credible report by a credible person there.

Funny how he seems to be faulting those "anybodies" who weren't helping them.

[NorthernSpy]

120. NEWSFLASH!: People tell lies.

People lie to make themselves seem more important than they actually are. People lie to make themselves admired. People lie to gain sympathy. Some people lie for money.

Anything that people can do, people can lie about doing. Anything that people can experience, people can lie about experiencing. That's why the reasonable course of action is to wait for actual evidence before assuming that a groundskeeper must know what he's talking about when he claims that doctors were offing their patients in New Orleans.

You see, when someone claims that:

... "They had pretty good angles on us. They were shooting at the helicopters. They were shooting at us. They were trying to pick off the doctors, the patients," he said.

It got hopeless.

"They stopped all choppers from landing. We were taking too much (gun)fire. We tried to get people and kids under the limited concrete that we had," he said.

... and yet no pilot bothers to mention such trifling details to the FAA, then I do start to wonder. One thing that I wonder about is whether this volunteer, Mr. Larson, might be something of a glory seeker.

Apparently, quite a few of us are not prepared to swallow just anything. Thank heaven for that!

[iverglas]

124. yes, I've noticed that

And people claim not to believe credible reports of facts and events for the strangest reasons.

McQueen was a groundskeeper, the other guy was an orderly ... manual labourers and therefore not worthy of belief (and if you haven't figured it out yet, McQueen was NOWHERE said to have been working at groundskeeping during the week AFTER the hurricane, he was reported to have been clearing wind damage on the day BEFORE the hurricane hit) ... and now we have a graduate student in genetics who volunteered to stay in a danger zone to protect his university's lab, who then volunteered to assist the professionals caring for patients in jeopardy at the university's hospital in the midst of it all ... and he might be something of a glory seeker. Yeah, that's what it sounds like.

And Charmaine Neville was ... what was she again? An African-American woman? Who says that she DID report the sexual assault she suffered on the abandoned streets of New Orleans at the earliest opportunity?

There are just all sorts of reasons to claim to disbelieve things. Including ones as ludicrous as rescue helicopter pilots not reporting (if such is the case -- how the hell would we know?) being shot at in a disaster zone while in the full throes of full-out rescue attempts. Sheesh, I keep thinking that bureaucracy instead of rescue was what we were denouncing.

Yes, they should have got out the best china tea service and taken a break to sit down and write that incident up, tout de suite. Certainly by now, at least, rescue helicopter pilots having all been sent off for some much needed R&R.

Apparently, quite a few of us are not prepared to swallow just anything. Thank heaven for that!

And some of us continue to strain at gnats, while churning out the purple prose. That bit reminded me of something I was reading in the Communist Worker or some such thing this morning. No offence to Communist Workers, but they do tend to get a bit over-the-top exclamatory and exhortatory ...

I'm not seeing further discussion of these issues between us actually being likely to constitute discussion. If you would like to come up with an actual reason to disbelieve the various reports that you exult in people not believing, something other than insinuations about the character of the witnesses whose words are reported that YOU have no basis for making, and assertions of fact that YOU have no basis for making (like that one about McQueen having spent the week clearing trees), I'll be listening.

Meanwhile, I'll continue to be unsurprised at reports that the abandonment of the disaster victims resulted in some of them being criminally victimized, and put some of them in the position of having to make decisions no one should ever have to make.

Oh -- you have figured that bit out, right?

That the reason the doctor gave for the decisions she made was that she did not have sufficient morphine to be able to continue relieving the patients' pain until they were rescued, and she chose to use the morphine she did have to end their lives sooner, rather than leave them to suffer in agony without relief when she had used it all up and no rescue had come?

Can't imagine why I'd find that beyond belief, myself.

[poppet]

20. The articles don't disagree about Forest McQueen

One article says part of his job was maintaining the grounds for plantations in the ABita Springs area. The other article says the he worked in public utilities in Abita Springs - part of this job would consist of grounds maintenance. Neither article says he was an emergency official - one article says that "he worked closely with emergency officials." This makes sense if he work in public utilities.

[NorthernSpy]

28. actually, the Daily Mail article DOES call McQueen an "emergency official"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=361980&in_page_id=1770

Her heart-rending account has been corroborated by a hospital orderly and by local government officials. One emergency official, William 'Forest' McQueen, said: "Those who had no chance of making it were given a lot of morphine and lain down in a dark place to die."

Did you actually read what was written?

And please note that McQueen is the ONLY named source in the entire article.

Which leads us to the question of just why the hell doctors would seek out a maintenance man for treatment consultation. You DO realize, don't you, that there are rules protecting the privacy of those undergoing medical treatment?

[whistle]

7. List the hospitals and nursing homes and institutions where

....this was done.

[zulchzulu]

9. Triage medical procedures during disasters have to happen unfortunately

Triage medical procedures are a given process during disasters. It is the unfortunate but necessary conclusion made by medical professionals when they assess a disaster site.

What happens is that people are tagged with their name, contact info and such and then there is a set of icons that the medical professional circles after assessing the patient's condition.

From site (link below):

Triage - A process for sorting injured people into groups based on their need for or likely benefit from immediate medical treatment. Triage is used on the battlefield, at disaster sites, and in hospital emergency rooms when limited medical resources must be allocated.

Black / Expectant
They are so severely injured that they will die of their injuries, possibly in hours or days (large-body burns, severe trauma, lethal radiation dose), or in life-threatening medical crisis that they are unlikely to survive given the care available (cardiac arrest, septic shock); they should be taken to a holding area and given painkillers to ease their passing.

Red / Immediate
They require immediate surgery or other life-saving intervention, first priority for surgical teams or transport to advanced facilities, "cannot wait" but are likely to survive with immediate treatment.

Yellow / Observation
Their condition is stable for the moment but requires watching by trained persons and frequent re-triage, will need hospital care (and would receive immediate priority care under "normal" circumstances).

Green / Wait
They will require a doctor's care in several hours or days but not immediately, may wait for a number of hours or be told to go home and come back the next day (broken bones without compound fractures, many soft tissue injuries).

White / Dismiss
They have minor injuries; first aid and home care are sufficient, a doctor's care is not required.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Triage#Advanced_triage

Bush is still to blame for this as well as Homeland Security. I wouldn't take it out on the medical people that had to make that difficult decision.

[Ilsa]

41. I remember the doctors at the airport saying they were

black-tagging as well and left untreated. No mention was made of euthanasia.

[zulchzulu]

47. I'm not sure if you'd call it "euthanasia" actually in triage procedures

Face it, the medics have to make a decision. If someone is mortally wounded and there are no facilities to offer them to survive in the next few minutes at the disaster site, then using morphine and letting them die comfortably is the only choice.

Would it be fair for the rest of the people who need to be treated immediately to not get medical care because someone who has a mortal wound and will die within minutes gets full treatment? No.

If doctors turn off the lifeline equipment and feed the dying patient morphine for the last minutes of their life, is that called "euthanasia"?

No. It's called letting the patient die. This happens all the time in hospitals.

It's life.

And death.

[Ilsa]

69. Oh, I didn't mean to imply that the doctors there were

euthanizing patients at the airport. It was simply triage - and marking for death anyone too far to reasonably be helped by their limited means, so they reappropriate supplies.

Alot of people don't realize that doctors or nurses or paramedics are not required to continue lifesaving procedures under certain circumstances, "inevitability" being one of them.

[Jade Fox]

11. Good god. Just when I thought I'd heard the worst.....

this is reveled. This disaster will be a benchmark for stupid, tragic
governmental irresponsibility.

I totally support the docs--they did the humane thing. But what a horrible
decision to have to make.

Now watch the fundamentalist idiots go nuts.

[PuraVidaDreamin]

26. fundies won't bring it up. They hope this story stays under the radar

So WE need to bring it up. Repeat it loudly and often.

The doctors were very strong and courageous that made
such a humane call.

I'd rather go to sleep than drown too. Morphine is
a wonderful drug.

[IndianaGreen]

23. Rupert Murdoch owns The Daily Telegraph

Newspapers - News Corporation

Australasian region Newspapers:

Daily Telegraph
Fiji Times
Gold Coast Bulletin
Herald Sun
Newsphotos
Newspix
Newstext
NT News
Post Courier
Sunday Herald Sun
Sunday Mail
Sunday Tasmanian
Sunday Territorian
Sunday Times
The Advertiser
The Australian
The Courier Mail
The Mercury
The Sunday Mail
The Sunday Telegraph
Weekly Times

United Kingdom region Newspapers:

News International
News of the World
The Sun
The Sunday Times
The Times
Times Education Supplement
Times Higher Education Supplement
Times Literary Supplement
TSL Education

United States region Newspapers:

New York Post

http://www.woopidoo.com/biography/rupert-news-corporation.htm

[NNN0LHI]

24. Last I checked Euthanasia is illegal in Louisiana

Unless something has changed?

Don

[whalerider55]

29. unless the federal government sponsors it... n/t

[lindisfarne]

43. It is also illegal for the federal government to create a situation where

people don't have access to proper medical care, all due to the president's failure to sign off (until Thursday night) on Northern command sending in emergency resources and supplies.

See link http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4725518&mesg_id=4728193

To me, it's irrelevant whether euthanasia actually occurred or not. What is relevant is the federal government's failures caused many to die. The Bush administration is guilty of murder here.

[Carni]

25. No Dr should ever forcibly be put in this situation

Imagine the nightmares these Dr's are carrying around with them having to make such calls...the guilt, the second guessing etc.

Yet another appalling example of why Bush should be tarred and feathered, run out of DC and then prosecuted.

[Timefortruth]

27. This will be aggressively prosecuted.

It's the perfect red herring.

[struggle4progress]

30. Curiously enough, William Forest McQueen has appeared ..

.. in an entirely different collection of New Orleans stories:



British families fear for US relatives

<snip> Mother-of-two Suzanne McQueen, of Maidstone, Kent, is waiting for news of her American husband (William) Forest McQueen.

He has been working in his home country since 1997, and lives and works with his brother in the Abita Springs area, north of Lake Pontchartrain, which is north of New Orleans.

Part of his job there is to maintain the grounds of an old plantation house, she said.

"I phoned the morning the hurricane hit, and his brother said Forest hadn't been home for the last 24 hours because he'd been on shift clearing up trees and lines from all the wind damage that came before the hurricane. I haven't heard anything since. <snip>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4220656.stm


Family's hope for hurricane dad

A man last heard of when he went out to clear debris in the build-up to Hurricane Katrina is one of 96 Britons still missing in the US.
William McQueen's family, from Maidstone, Kent, have spent each evening calling Louisiana in vain.

On Wednesday, Susan McQueen appeared on BBC TV with her daughters to appeal for news of her husband, known as Forest. <snip>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/4222806.stm


Nearly 100 Britons are still missing

<snip> Nothing has been heard of William McQueen since a few hours before the worst of the storm hit, when he had set off to clear trees already brought down by high winds in Abita Springs, a small town north of New Orleans, across Lake Pontchatrain.

Mr McQueen, 43, had been working for the council in Abita Springs, where he has been living with his brother Stephen. At the family home in Maidstone yesterday, his estranged wife Suzanne said that the couple's daughters, Rebecca, 13, and Samantha, 11, were desperately worried.

"I am sure that if he was OK, William would have got in contact," she said. "He knows how frantic with worry we would be and he would have let us know that he was all right. Our children are obviously distraught and desperate to hear from him." <snip>

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/09/07/wkat107.xml

[NorthernSpy]

32. voice of reason!

:thumbsup:

That was brought to people's attention over in GD, where this article was originally posted, and posters still kept taking the Daily Mail story as gospel. Doctors offing their patients and telling the utility crew all about it? Sure -- just more eagerly received "evidence" of Exactly How Bad Things Are Nowadays, don't you know...

Seriously, does this McQueen person seem even remotely credible to anyone?

:eyes:


And that picture is hilarious!


(edit: clarity)

[etherealtruth]

113. Sadly the story is still being taken as gospel ...

... with no further information ... just repetion of snips from the article and reference to a few other sources that are simply "REPRINTING" the exact same article. :banghead:

[iverglas]

114. sadly, there are still those

who choose not to address the issues raised by the message, and prefer to misrepresent the messengers.

reference to a few other sources that are simply "REPRINTING" the exact same article

And if only "SOMEONE" could offer up some "REASON" for "DISBELIEVING" what is reported in the article.

Medical personnel find themselves

- facing horrific conditions they do not have the experience with or training to deal with or guidelines to apply in

- having no expectation of rescue from those conditions in the immediate term

- having a limited supply of pain-relief medication and no access to any other stocks

have to make a decision between

- administering sufficient medication to relieve pain at present but running out of medication in future and thus having committed the act that left their patient living in agony for the time that remains before dying, as s/he will inevitably do anyway

- administering sufficient medication to cause death and thus having committed the act that killed the person before s/he would have died


There's a situation that every healthcare professional in the world is just crying out to be dumped into, and in which every healthcare professional in the world would be rushing to get his/her name in print.


If "ANYBODY" would "READ" the reports they are so intent on discrediting, they might learn something useful.

[etherealtruth]

115. Though I am very flattered (?) that you are following me ...

... from thread to thread (not even responding to those whose posts that I am simply agreeing with ????) to try to convince me of your position, I will simply restate how I have responded to you on this subject before: You appear to be very emotionally invested in your position and I clearly have my own biases ... until more information (not simply rehashing of the same source and info over and over) is available I will not entertain other positions (with new and credible info I will gladly reassess).

You are very passionate about this (since neither of us was where this is reported to have happened ... location uncertain... the truth is not available to either of us), but I think our conversation on this particular subject has run it's course and serves no useful function.

As in the other thread you may have the last word ...

[iverglas]

117. and I'll keep taking that last word

and keep pointing out how you are very "liberal" with the attempts to impugn my motives and portray me as less than rational, impugn the characters of those reporting and reported in this story, cite the uprightness of yourself and your colleagues as if this had something to do with the report ... and yet how stingy you are with any actual demonstration of why the report should be disbelieved.

No allegations of evil-doing have been made against any medical professional.

No attempt has been made to blame anyone other than the appropriate authorities in the US for anything that happened in this situation.

People all over the world, including readers of Murdoch publications and even people in the US who voted Republican (as currently being reported by, gasp, FoxNews), are outraged at the treatment of the disaster victims by authorities in the US.

For some reason, some people at DU want to portray all those people and their outrage, and some of the people who were VICTIMS of the outrageous acts, as having some secret, anti-African-American, anti-poor, anti-doctor???, anti-dog knows what agenda.

I keep wondering what that reason is.

[geckosfeet]

34. I doubt this very much. A lot of morphine maybe, knowingly provide

a lethal dose; I doubt it.

If/when doctors do this, they certainly do not do it in a public forum.

The more I think about, the more absurd it seems.

[bmbmd]

89. You are exactly right.

Would not, could not, and should not euthanise these patients. Enough morphine to make them unaware of circumstances and to calm fear is fine. Enough to cause respiratory arrest is illegal and a violation of the Hippocratic oath.

[Delphinus]

35. This is sooo sad.

I cannot believe how badly we let our citizens down.

I'm glad the doctors had the strength of will to mitigate their suffering, but it is still so sad.

[allalone]

36. well isn't as though they were fetuses

:sarcasm:
seriously, it's better that way than the nursing home where the old people were left to drown in their beds.

[daleo]

38. Bushco phony "culture of life" results in death, as usual.

If these patients would have been in a permanently vegetative state, Bush would have spared no expense on the levees or the rescue attempts.

[SunDrop23]

44. Well they were underprivileged, anyway.

Isn't that what Barb had to say?

[Redstone]

46. Uh, how come a Google search for "William Forest McQueen" has NO

matches? Just wondering.

On edit: I see somoeone else has checked.

Can we PLEASE stop being so goddamned gullible now? It makes us look bad.

Redstone

[norml]

49. Since the only news sources I've see this on are The Daily Mail, Fox News,

and The Daily Telegraph, I may have been too quick to place this in Latest Breaking News.

Damn that Murdock!

[Redstone]

60. Glad to hear you admit that. It's good to see someone

here at DU who is reluctant to stoke the fires of yet another sensationalist and/or conspiracy-theory "story" that turns out to be untrue or just plain ridiculous.

Not criticizing you for posting it; it's damn hard to do enough fact-checking soon enough...

Now, if we can only get these people's fever lowered, and get them to understand that the sources are highly supect (to say the least)...

And, if it makes you feel any better, you're not the first intelligent person to have been snookered by Murdoch; after all, he's had a lifetime of practice at what he does.

Redstone

[Doris32r]

48. Remember Oprah

Dr. Oz said they (dr's, nurses, whoever) were putting people who were still alive in the morge to give them a quiet place to die because they didn't have the capability to save them.

[NNN0LHI]

50. There was at least a dozen threads about it back then n/t

[bonito]

51. I know there were caregivers out there

and there loved ones survived because of there efforts. thats what it takes folks when you got someone in the hospital. you might ruffle some feathers but the nurses, doctors and the hospital are all on the same side giving the best care to your loved one, but you have to be there! everyone makes mistakes, and there really is no excuse for it, because there is no excuse for being human, the patient needs an advocate when there down and studies show when there is an attentive advocate involved the patient recovery rate increases. Be there.

[electron_blue]

52. looks suspicious to me

and even has a byline with tomorrow's date.

huh?

[bonito]

54. huh?

[cat_hair]

82. It's from an Australian paper

Arent' they like 12 hours ahead of the US? So it would already be tomorrow there.

I'm not getting into the rest of it though.

[calimary]

102. Welcome to DU!

Glad you're here.

Help us to GET RID OF THESE PEOPLE!!!

[cat_hair]

116. I didn't say that I don't believe it either...

I think that anything is always possible and try to keep an open mind about things.

I'd have to see another source for this.

Thanks for the welcome, but I've been here for awhile. Just didn't post that much.

[Nothing Without Hope]

55. Here's another thread on this heartbreaking story:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4736809
Thread title: We had to kill our patients /when NO hospitals evac'ed

I hope these caregivers are not persecuted by the heartless GOP - after their Administration caused these deaths and so many more.

[bonito]

66. caregivers are beyond persecution

In that they give all for those in there charge. theres nothing else to give or be taken.

[Nothing Without Hope]

68. I agree with you. It gave them great pain to do what they did. But I can

all too easily imagine the GOP frauds trying to use it as a divisive issue to whip up their RW Fristian base. The caregivers knew of this danger and have wisely kept their identities anonymous. I wish them well and hope they find healing for themselves after this trauma. It is no less a trauma for them even though they acted from love and compassion.

[mzmolly]

56. "With gangs of rapists and looters rampaging through wards in the flooded

city ..." ??? This much is news to me.

I dislike the inflamatory/dishonest rhetoric I've noted above. However, I don't doubt the rest of the story.

Thanks for sharing, what a sad state of affairs. I have pity for the doctors who were in such a position.

[expatriot]

57. there is no doubt that a city left to anguish in anarchy is a city left to

the most vicious and ruthless among us.

Bush left the city to anguish in this darkness of anarchy. The city's police, which is notorious for a long history of corruption problems and low morale, lost the capability to maintain order very early on as should have been foreseen in such a situation.

It is interesting that Bush felt there was no need for federal troops and out of state NG in the city for the first 3-4 days after the storm but now feels there should be 60,000 troops in and around Orleans.


It is very common sense that if Bush would have 20,000 troops in and around the city within the first 12 hours ALONG with inundating the city with water, food and emergency medical care... there would have been very few if any security concerns.

[mzmolly]

59. Yes indeed. I believe Blanco requested 40,000.

So much unnecessary suffering.

[spacelady]

61. I do not believe this is a credible account, I do not believe medical

personnel would make these decisions on the scene. This is on a par with the cannibalism accounts. My opinion.

[supernova]

62. It happens in triage

Sorry, but it does.

If medical staff are overwhelmed with victims, whether from war or natural disaster, they have to make decisions about who will survive and who will die anyway. This keeps them from using up needed supplies and resources on people for whom it is too late.

It's very sad, but it is very true and does happen.

Those poor souls who died this way probably didn't have a chance to survive anyway. And I hope the medical staff will be able to find some peace about it all eventually.

[spacelady]

63. So They are using Needed supplies of morphine to finish them off.

I call BS in this instance.

Let's please just stop and take a deep breath.

[supernova]

65. It's not BS at all

it's standard medical practice in an emergency situation.

You obviously haven't spent any time around the medical profession.

Disaster triage

Disaster medical triage is a dynamic process occurring at several levels in the system to rapidly identify patients with critical injuries from the total number of presenting casualties. Traditionally, triage systems have attempted to sort victims into categories to determine treatment and transport priorities. Triage in a disaster is neither perfect nor democratic. It lacks sensitivity and specificity; however, triage improves outcome. Avoiding deaths in all categories requires knowledge of the resources of the local EMS system. Simple triage and rapid treatment categorizes victims based on their ability to walk, their mental status, and the presence or absence of ventilation or capillary perfusion.

Patients generally are tagged. Tags are color-coded as follows:

* Red - Emergent

* Yellow - Urgent

* Green - Nonurgent

* Black - Dead or very severely injured and not expected to survive

Patients who are severely injured and not expected to survive are the most difficult to assign because of the obvious ominous implications. Note that patients placed in this category clearly are so severely injured that no degree of medical help relieves them.

[spacelady]

72. Thank You for the clarification, I bow to expertise & experience,

my opinion is that until now this has not been an issue with other disasters. This is an inflammatory subject until someone steps forward and owns it.

[superconnected]

84. I could understand non-treatment

but where does it say eupthanize?

[tavalon]

75. Whether this exact situation happened in this instance, we don't know

but using Morphine to speed the death process and make it more comfortable has been going on for a very long time, often with the patient's consent, sometimes not, if they are comatose. Euthanasia is illegal but that doesn't mean that we caregivers can't find ways of helping these poor souls to leave peacefully.

In situations like these, Morphine is used to help at the end, yes to euthanize. This isn't a new idea here.

[spacelady]

78. Yes, I understand that, but in this case we are talking about

Putting people down like diseased animals. These accounts are vague and inflammatory in the way they are presented. Look at all the ways we have indicted Bush. The medical personnel on this horrendous scene
are not being well-served by this crapfest of an article.

[tavalon]

125. True enough

I wasn't speaking to the article but rather to that unmentionable aspect that we in the medical field are well acquainted with. And the fact that that something becomes a painful imperative in a life or death triage situation.

[tavalon]

73. ?

Could you elaborate.

[spacelady]

80. Yes, medical personnel can make decisions on the scene, but the terms

"euthanasia" and putting people "down" are not what these brave folks did and these sorts of headlines are inflammatory and basically unfounded in this particular instance. Like those horrible websites that claimed people were eating the dead to survive.

So enough already.

[tavalon]

126. There we agree totally n/t

[azoth]

106. I believe it. I would hope to heck that if *I* were a vented patient

that somebody would give me a nice, fat morphine bolus than make me die of asphyxiation.

I'd bet it's true.

[Oreegone]

64. If there were no other option

I would pray that the doctors administered a kind relief from my already terminal state. God bless the doctors compassion. What other choice did they have? To let me die in pain alone in the dark and water?
O8)

[tavalon]

76. Exactly

Yes, I would feel some pain and worry around whether I did the right thing but I would do it nonetheless because the options are worse.

[AuntieM1957]

67. Damn Bush for destroying the USA!

Cronyism, stupidity, and paralyzing fear of making the wrong move kept him from effectively leading a rescue effort.

And far too many people were faced with life or death choices.

Children witnessed horrors that will remain vivid forever.

And I just flat out fucking hate George W Bush right now.

[calimary]

101. When you look at george's face, remember it as the face of someone

who will be going to Hell when he dies.

I wish him a nice long life on this plane. He'll still be able to enjoy himself, fully, no doubt, and in the greatest comfort and coddling and flattery. Because after that, it'll be a mighty long time for him to experience his own misery index.

Yes, I do believe that God forgives all. But while you're forgiven, I think you still have to pay for your sins. You still have to make some sort of retribution. And george has too many sins on his soul, and too much unnecessary blood and carnage and wreckage on his hands, to get another free pass. He'll likely get them all in this life, and not in the next. You don't do this stuff, and allow this stuff, and surround yourself with other people who also do this stuff and allow this stuff, and then get into Heaven just like it was nothing at all.

[tavalon]

70. They absolutely did the right thing

And as a nurse, I would have done the same thing and held the same pain in my heart. My heart hurts for those patients and their caregivers.

[Carolab]

71. This decision could not be made by unconscious people.

Their families would have to give their permission. If they could not locate families, the Hippocratic oath binds them to save these lives, not end them.

[Redstone]

77. Uh...people? There's no reason to keep going on about this.

The source is suspect; the "emergency official" has turned out to be no such "official," and the OP has posted a retraction.

This is bullshit.

Didn't happen.

Can we stop discussing it now?

Redstone

[spacelady]

79. Thank you. n/t

[iverglas]

108. see no evil, hear no evil, deny that evil exists ...

Not, of course, that anything this doctor is said to have said she did could be characterized as "evil" by any decent person.

Not wanting to read the source document? Post 103, right in this thread.

Not wanting to make some actual argument for disbelieving -- let alone insisting that others disbelieve -- the quoted remarks of an individual whom journalists who have put their names on the report state they interviewed (and whose identity they state they are protecting in the individual's interests)?

Just wanting to hook your wagon to red herrings, like whether two UK journalists 100% accurately described a man who works for a neighbouring municipality and went to New Orleans to offer aid in the emergency, and whom they rather wisely interviewed, named and quoted as corroboration of the other statements they reported? -- After EXPLAINING that they were naming ONLY non-medical staff in order to protect the interests of the medical staff?

An awful lot of people's integrity seems to be getting impugned here without a shred of evidence for the attacks on their character.


Whether anyone agrees with the characterization of the events, e.g. as "murder", is quite another matter. The doctor apparently believed that she acted contrary to the rules governing her practice; although she could quite possibly have criminal liability assigned to her, no one appears to be suggesting that any moral blame attaches to her actions -- least of all her patients' families:

Their families believe their confessions are an indictment of the appalling failure of American authorities to help those in desperate need after Hurricane Katrina flooded the city, claiming thousands of lives and making 500,000 homeless.

I guess the families believed them, but maybe they're just racist Republicans too.

[Zhade]

81. I don't envy those doctors those choices.

What horror, to find oneself in such a position as that!

[superconnected]

83. If it was me, I don't won't the medical profession deciding my fate.

I would rather die of natural causes.

I watched the medical profession kill my father. I don't give that much integrity to someone just because they are a doctor. I know better from my own experiences and from watching others. I hope they get tried in that state for not following the law.

I think it should be left up to the the family or the will and don't aid(especially eupthanize) past their jurisdiction.

I hope whomever decides to sue over their family member, wins big time and gets jail time for the "mercy-killers".

[NVMojo]

85. fundies won't care about this ...they only care about voiceless embyoes

and voiceless human bodies in vegetative states so they can pander to their own holiness.

[lindisfarne]

86. Drs have an obligation to alleviate suffering. If those patients were

suffering, they could justifiably give them morphine to alleviate the pain. It may be that in order to alleviate the pain, the dose necessary may endanger the patient's life.

This sort of thing happens all the time with cancer patients who are going to die; it's just a matter of hastening the death a bit.

The medical profession used to withhold morphine out of fear it would depress respiration so much that people would die. Cancer patients endured much pain as a result (unfortunately, stories like this still happen although much less often).

[etherealtruth]

94. Thank you for an accurate description of Morphine use ....

I am a former hospice nurse ("retired" to raise a family).

Morphine IS used to treat intractable pain ... there is a potential for hastening death BUT there is also a potential that the alleviation of severe pain also will lengthen (and add to the quality of) life. Physicians and nurses ARE committed to seeing that the needs (and welfare) of patients are adequately addressed, alleviation of pain by administration of pain medications does this. Bull shit like this makes people fearful of accepting much needed treatment.

ALL of the interviews given by medical professionals, in this case, have told of valiant efforts to PRESERVE life.

As noted before, I find it very dubious that health care professionals would seek out "grounds keepers" to share this story with. I don't mean this in an elitist way, people tend to share stories like this with people that have a similar frame of reference and experience.

Why are we taking dubious reports from dubious news outlets and giving them more exposure??????

[iverglas]

110. the doctor is actually reported as saying

that they did more than this.

The original source of the report (a bylined article, in an undeniably sensationalizing publication, by two journalists who state that they interviewed the doctor, but choose not to name her to protect her interests):

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=361980&in_page_id=1770&in_a_source=&ct=5

"I injected morphine into those patients who were dying and in agony. If the first dose was not enough, I gave a double dose. ..."

By "enough", she pretty plainly means "enough to kill them".

This is what appears to be the source of the doctor's crisis of conscience ... that she went beyond the death-as-side-effect practice, of giving sufficient morphine to ease pain and thus being sheltered from accusations of intentionally causing death, to intentionally giving lethal doses.

I still don't know what decent person would point the finger of blame at anyone facing such a horrible choice: leave patients to suffer longer -- morphine might have ceased to be available, I think was the point; there was no access to the pharmacy -- or "allow" them to die without the agony that could be expected to await them by using the morphine that was still available.

[lindisfarne]

123. "enough" might have referred to "enough to ease the pain"

like I said above, it's not so important whether this actually happened; what is important is that the federal government's slow inadequate response put doctors in situations where they might have to make calls they wouldn't have to if the federal government had provided the resources necessary to evacuate patients sooner.

I agree with those who say the story is probably not true. But it does bring up some interesting issues which could have resulted from Bush's failure to sign off until Thursday on Northern Command's sending in resources.

[flyarm]

87. i originally posted this on gd and it was now locked...but now this

story has been posted on buzzflash this morning...

i wonder why it was locked on gd??

buzzflash has it on its first column this morning!!

fly

[Redstone]

92. It got locked because of the dubious nature of the source(s),

and the inconsistencies and fabrications in the stories.

This one should have been locked as well.


Redstone

[AngryWhiteLiberal]

91. Bets anyone? Bets on how long it will take for the fundies to prosecute?

It won't be long before we hear the fury of fundies calling and writting their congress persons and reverends about the "killing of innocents" in NO.

Too bad Terri Schiavo wasn't being housed in NO...would have saved everyone a whole lot of heartbreak and suffering.

JB

[Mizmoon]

95. These doctors should be charged with murder

They are murderers.

[etherealtruth]

98. This is a very dubious story ...

From a very dubious 'news outlet' based on reports from a very dubious source ...

[iverglas]

103. and here's what seems to be the original source

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=361980&in_page_id=1770&in_a_source=&ct=5

Yup, the Daily Mail / Mail on Sunday. Not a good source. But if I asked Karl Rove the time of day and he told me, I might believe him.

It's by-lined -- journalists have attached their names to it -- and detailed:

We had to kill our patients
by CAROLINE GRAHAM and JO KNOWSLEY

... In an extraordinary interview with The Mail on Sunday, one New Orleans doctor told how she 'prayed for God to have mercy on her soul' after she ignored every tenet of medical ethics and ended the lives of patients she had earlier fought to save.

... Euthanasia is illegal in Louisiana, and The Mail on Sunday is protecting the identities of the medical staff concerned to prevent them being made scapegoats for the events of last week.

There follows a lengthy and detailed account in what are reported to be the doctor's own words.

This statement:

The doctor, who finally fled her hospital late last week in fear of being murdered by the armed looters

is *not* in quotation marks, so we'll have to wait and see whether the doctor objects to it as false. After all, if it's false, surely she'll object.

Oh, wait --

"The pharmacy was under lockdown because gangs of armed looters were roaming around looking for their fix. ..."

Quotation marks. From a taped interview, maybe? Oh, heck, maybe an interview with some racist Republican just posing as a doctor, and fooling some gullible right-wing journalists.

That McQueen fellow -- *not* a member of medical staff responsible for making or carrying out the decisions, and therefore not criminally liable, and able to speak freely:

Mr McQueen, a utility manager for the town of Abita Springs, half an hour north of New Orleans, told relatives that patients had been 'put down', saying: "They injected them, but nurses stayed with them until they died."

Mr McQueen has been working closely with emergency teams and added: "They had to make unbearable decisions."

The source may be "dubious" -- but I'm still wondering what reason there is to doubt the report.

And why anyone would persist in claiming that s/he does doubt it or demand that anyone else doubt it ...


And just for the finger-pointers calling this murder:

"This was not murder, this was compassion. They would have been dead within hours, if not days. We did not put people down. What we did was give comfort to the end. ..."

[Bridget Burke]

99. If you are so concerned....

You need to check out every hospital & hospice in your city.

[Mizmoon]

104. I work in a hospital

we never murder our patients.

[MaineDem]

107. Ever work in a disaster?

One word...triage.

And I personally don't believe giving someone morphine to ease pain and then moving on to a patient you can save to be murder.

[Mizmoon]

109. That's not what is alleged here ...

They are saying that medical doctors gave "massive overdoses of morphine to those they beleeved could not make it out alive". That means that they intentionally killed people. That is a crime.

[iverglas]

111. why don't you try reading what was actually said?

(if we believe the two reporters who put their names on the report of the interview they claim to have conducted with the doctor in question)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=361980&in_page_id=1770&in_a_source=&ct=5

... senior doctors took the harrowing decision to give massive overdoses of morphine to those they believed could not make it out alive.

... "I injected morphine into those patients who were dying and in agony. If the first dose was not enough, I gave a double dose. ... The pharmacy was under lockdown because gangs of armed looters were roaming around looking for their fix. You have to understand these people were going to die anyway."

This is the actual crux of the thing, that everybody is missing.

Under normal circumstances, medical professionals would give morphine in sufficient doses to relieve pain, regardless of whether the effect might be lethal.

In these circumstances -- knowing that the morphine then on hand might be all the morphine that they would have for some time, since no rescue efforts were underway -- the doctor decided to intentionally administer certainly lethal doses rather than leave the patients to suffer when she ran out of morphine.

Getting it at all?

[bamacrat]

97. Brings the whole right to die question back up doesn't it?

[Mizmoon]

105. Or the "right to live" question

depending :)

[MisterP]

118. "gangs of rapists" now--they're really upping the fear ante

[norml]

119. I saw this on Fox News, and I did a quick news search. Nothing since then.

No one else has picked up on it.

I'm embarrassed for any loss of credibility either I or LBN has suffered for my having been taken in by something I saw on Fox News and then in some Murdock rag.

If on the other hand this story has any credibility, I'm certain in time it will come out in other publications.

Other than that I think a discussion of the situational ethics of euthanasia would best be done in some more theoretical forum.

I'm going to ask that this thread be locked.

I'll enjoy going through it looking for disruptors.

Sorry for any inconvenience.


Results 1 - 3 of 3 for Euthanasia New-Orleans Morphine. (0.06 seconds)


Sorted by relevance Sort by date


Gov. Blanco On August 29: "Mr. President, We Need Your Help. We ...
Huffington Post, NY - 21 hours ago
... interview with The Mail on Sunday, one New Orleans doctor told how ... it were given a lot of morphine and lain ... Euthanasia is illegal in Louisiana, and The Mail on ...


Daily Telegraph Patients put down
Daily Telegraph, Australia - Sep 11, 2005
... One New Orleans doctor told how she "prayed for God to ... making it were given a lot of morphine and lain ... Euthanasia is illegal in Louisiana and the doctors spoke ...

NO Doctors: 'We had to kill our patients'
Brad Blog - Sep 11, 2005
... newspaper The Mail revealed that although euthanasia is illegal ... I injected morphine into those ... Abita Springs, half an hour north of New Orleans, told relatives ...


New! Get the latest news on Euthanasia New-Orleans Morphine with Google Alerts.


http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&q=Euthanasia+%22New+Orleans%22+Morphine&btnG=Search+News

[NorthernSpy]

121. the story's not credible, since the credibility of its only named source..

... is in serious doubt.

Mr. McQueen's groundskeeping duties might make him an emergency worker, but not an emergency official.

Abita Srpings, where McQueen was last known to be cleaning up downed trees, is at a signficant remove from New Orleans.

Why would doctors be consulting with a guy on cleanup detail about patient treatment? Especially if the "treatment" in question happens to be considered murder by the State of Louisiana

McQueen is the only named source in the article (as I never tire of reminding people).

Why would American doctors have chosen this particular British tabloid to spill their guts to?

McQueen himself is known to have connections to Britain: his wife lives there. That McQueen and his wife are the conduit for the entire story seems rather likely.

[iverglas]

127. ... has been impugned by some here without any basis

Mr. McQueen's groundskeeping duties might make him an emergency worker, but not an emergency official.

Since he is not quoted as calling himself an emergency official, attacks on his credibility are uncalled for and incivil.

Why would American doctors have chosen this particular British tabloid to spill their guts to?

Gee, maybe because the reporters in question -- who signed their name to their report -- requested the interview?

McQueen is the only named source in the article (as I never tire of reminding people).

Just an energizer bunny ... saying the same thing over and over and never acknowledging anything that undermines it.

Any chance you remember Deep Throat? Now there's a named source for you.

If you have some reason to impugn the integrity of the journalists who wrote this report, stating clearly that they interviewed the doctor and were withholding her name for her protection -- the journalists whose names are on the report -- like maybe they have a history of making things up, or I can't guess ... why don't you tell us??

McQueen himself is known to have connections to Britain: his wife lives there. That McQueen and his wife are the conduit for the entire story seems rather likely.

Yikes, known to have connections to Britain. Should someone be telling Joe McCarthy?

But hmm, that theory seems credible. I'm not getting your point though, I'm afraid.

How's it go? -- McQueen calls wife to report in after a week of his whereabouts being unknown ... British media check in with wife to find out whether she has news of husband in the US ... wife tells reporter what husband has told her (I'll bet he was just chuckling, eh?) ... British reporters arrange telephone interview with doctor through McQueen ... yeah, that sounds credible.

Still can't figure out what the point is, I'm afraid.

McQueen IS a citizen of the US, you know, eh? Not even a naturalized one, from what I gather.

[Megahurtz]

122. Fuckin' A!!!

:cry:

[jarab]

128. Locking -

Locking at the request of (thread) author.