Farrakhan Ministers To Evacuees, Vows To Bush That Payback Is Near

[ECH1969]

Farrakhan was joined by the Hip-Hop Summit Action Network president Ben Chavis, Jim Jones, Erykah Badu and other Black leaders at the meeting. Victims of the hurricane were bussed to the meeting from the Houston's Astrodome, the ReliantCenter and other shelters in the city. The victims were given the chance to tell their stories and address their worries during the meeting.

Farrakhan condemned George W. Bush for his slow response in the hurricane ravaged region and said that the President would pay a heavy price for his complacency in New Orleans and the destruction in Iraq and Afghanistan during the war on terror.

http://www.sohh.com/thewire/read.php?contentID=7535

[jrthin]

1. Yee-haw. nt

[Barrett808]

2. From his lips to Allah's ears. n/t

[iconoclastic cat]

3. How, exactly?

[ladylibertee]

86. Can you say BLACK POWER ? I see a modified version of the

Civil rights movement on the horizon.I have to say, when it comes into fruition, and it will, I will do more than my part.

[Brightmore]

4. Who cares what this Nazi says?

[David__77]

10. I do, and he's not a Nazi.

He's not a consistent progressive, but he's hardly a Nazi. Talk like that will certainly alienate a large section of the Black community that appreciates Farrakhan's role in mobilizing the community.

[Brightmore]

12. You are right he isn't a Nazi

He's an anti-Semite and a bigot. He's a black David Duke.

[David__77]

15. No such thing as "Black David Duke."

A Black person espousing racial bigotry is immeasurably less dangerous than a white person doing the same thing. It is true that racial oppression relies upon control of the levers of power, which Black people do not have.

[Brightmore]

18. The fact remains...

Farrakhan hates Jews, gays, women and whites. He's a bigot. He should be condemned, not applauded.

And he is just as dangerous as someone like David Duke. Racism is racism. Doesn't matter if the bigotry is coming from a white or a black. It's still unacceptable and dangerous.

[donheld]

21. "The fact remains..." Incorrect

http://www.blacksandjews.com/Nyhan_Globe.html

Have you ever really listened to a speech of Minister Farrakhan?

[Brightmore]

27. Yes. Have you?

He's an unrepentant anti-Semite. He hates white people. He hates homosexuals. And he hates women.

How can you defend such a horrible man? If he was white, you would be calling him a neo-Nazi.

[donheld]

55. I've listened to him many times

He's none of what you say.

[Doris32r]

35. Thank you for that link. n/t

[davepc]

42. read the rest of that site for enlightened commentary about the jewish

conspiracy against the blacks.

[Doris32r]

47. Looking at both sides...

Went to the Anti Defamation League website as well to see what they have to say about him. Just curious what different people have to say about the subject.

[BronxBoy]

60. Jeez.......

I was trying to avoid this post but I've seen that it has grown so I have to chime in.

Farrakhan isn't the issue here. If you have problems with him based upon his remarks about Jews and homosexuals, so be it.

But what it seems that a lot of posters on this thread don't understand is that beneath the surface of all we have seen in the aftermath of Katrina is that Black people are extremely angry. And quite frankly, we want someone to stand up and talk tough. We want someone to call Bush on his bullshit without having them worry about political consequences. We have been the subject of some of the most blatant racial steroeyping and bigotry that I have seen in sometime and I can tell you, my people are sick to death of it. Actually, a post I saw here not too long ago captured our feeling: We are seething!!

I have been posting about the the curious lack of a Black Conservative response to this disaster. But quite frankly, the Dems aren't off the hook by a long shot. Where's the majority of the Democratic Leadership rising up and saying that above all, this was a tragedy steeped in racism. Hillary can can raise all kinds of hell about Grand Theft Auto but not about this?

Hell 2/3 of white American's still believe the response to Katrina wasn't based on race. TWO FUCKING THIRDS! You know what Black people are saying in their homes and amongst their friends when they feel free to speak: We are saying that white people are full of shit, even the ones that purport to help us. We don't want to hear about classism. We don't want to hear about ageism. We don't want to hear about building a coalition. We want to hear the truth: That thousands of Americans were deemed expendable because they were Black. The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem

I have my issues with Farrakhan and The Nation of Islam in general, but so what. Do any of you here who are posting about anti-semitism or homophobes actually think that our people are factoring that into the equation right now? Do you? No we are not. We only know that in a time of great crisis for our people, this country did not show up. And if you are so worried about the views of Farrakhan, then you should really try to understand how the utter contempt that most Black people been held in since Katrina might drive people to his message rather than away from it.

So instead of sitting here posting about the Farrakhan's views and how we shouldn't care about them, think instead that White America's indifference to us has provided him with all of the eager ears he needs. So instead of sneering about Farrakhan, maybe you should be thinking about how this government just provided him with tons of people who will listen to him. I can here my 75 year old Mom right now....

Me: You know Farrakhan is anti-semitic

Her: Well when I see Miami Beach abandoned during a killer hurricane then I'll worry about it.

Not trying to be snarky, only stating a reality that you don't seem aware of

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. Bravo

great post!!

[Bill Bored]

73. I agree with you, but speaking as a white boy from Queens...

I don't think Bush would be President if the voters of South FL had not been disenfranchised (along with thousands of African Americans) by paperless electronic voting machines in 2004, and by other less sophisticated means in 2000.

We are ultimately all still in this together.

Peace.

[BronxBoy]

99. What's up Queens...

Man I miss the city at times. Been away a year now.

I agree with you. And I think ultimately, (or at least I fervently hope) that all of the various political views represented here on DU will take the experience of Katrina to get rid of these idiots masquerading as our goverment.

[Tatiana]

75. Preach it, brother! n/t

[malaise]

97. Thanks for that

great post.

[illuminaughty]

100. Whoever and whatever it takes at this point

to make people realize this was genocide.

[jaysunb]

29. You really should get "your" facts straight.

Especially before you come round spewing bull shit.

[Roy]

62. Facts jaysunb??? This thread is not about facts

This thread's only purpose is to generate fodder for right wing talking points.

I am surprised that any person looking for serious discussion even bothered to participate.

[Brightmore]

79. The only people spewing bs

are the people who defend a bigot like Farrakhan.

Just because he bashes Bush, doesn't mean I will ignore and excuse his hatred. David Duke is also a Bush-basher. Should we applaud him as well?

[sarcasmo]

26. He is a Bigot regardless of color.

[tx_dem41]

44. Of course, you're statement itself is "racist".

Why do you feel the need to "coddle" a class of people?

[Lecky]

66. Just because it's less dangerous doesn't mean we should give it a pass

Wow...

[shadowknows69]

94. however "immeasureably less dangerous" it is

And I agree with you 100%, racial oppression does rely on power. Bigotry anyone can have, and hate is just hate. And hate begets more hate.

[shadowknows69]

95. Still

I'm a firm believer in the enemy of my enemy is my friend and if there's anything Farrakhan can do to piss in shrub's wheaties I say have at it and thank you for it. :evilgrin:

[Zynx]

13. I believe he once said, "Adolph Hitler was a great man."

He is an anti-semite at the very least.

[donheld]

14. I don't believe you can prove he said that about Hitler

:spank: Don't accuse unless you can prove :spank:

[NNN0LHI]

16. Ouchie wah wah. That hurt n/t

[Brightmore]

20. "Hitler was a very great man"

CNN article from October 17, 1995

[Megahurtz]

24. Oh Shit! n/t

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rinsd]

39. Try reading that site.....

Its a bunch of anti-semitic Jews control the world BS.

[Brightmore]

78. That site is very anti-Semitic

Blames Jews for slavery, the war in Iraq, racism against blacks, etc.

Nice source.

[CatWoman]

34. In some degrees, Hitler was a great man

*newsflash*

and before you call me a bigot too, I'll just say that being evil at times does not take away from greatness.

Hitler did a lot of good for the German people: the autobahn, rebuilding after WWI, etc., before he got his war on.

[KenCarson]

38. aren't VW's a by product of his?

,

[CatWoman]

53. yes

the "people's car"

[rinsd]

40. The autobahn and rebuilding were part of getting his war on...

...and basically every thing he did had malevolent intentions.

The whole thing is spelled out in Mein Kampf including social projects to gather the support of the people.

[davepc]

41. Hitlers "rebuilding" of Germany was smoke and mirrors

Its economy was built on the foundations of a military-industrial complex designed from the ground up to prepare for war. That type of industrial mobilization has limited usefulness and in the end cripples a countries ability to develop, as its resources are not re-invested into itself to promote further prosperity.

If there was no war then Germany's economy would of collapsed, because it spent its energy creating tanks and bombs and battleships and infantry divisions.

After the military reached a certain size the cost of supporting it becomes unsustainable, and with all industrial resources focused on sustaining an entity that has no output, it becomes in essence a black hole and drain on the economy.

The only way to sustain Germany's "great" economic resurgence was war and conquest.

Not to mention that the economic 'reforms' promoted the corporation at the expense of the individual German, and despite claims of helping the common man, the individual German did not see any real benefit while the elites built empires of wealth on their backs.

Hitler did nothing for the German people but put them on a dead end one way collision course toward war, and murdered millions of people.

All the superhighways in the world don't excuse that.

[CatWoman]

54. hey -- I'm not a Hitler fan

don't get me wrong. I was just pointing out the obvious.

http://www.thirdreich.net/AH_Man_of_Year.html

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

70. "I'm not a Hitler fan."

:rofl:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

71. Change the country's/leader's name and it all becomes eerily familiar.

[Zodiak]

45. Voldemort did great things

terrible things, but great.

Bad and great are separate issues.

[CatWoman]

52. I thought that's what I was saying

:shrug:

[Zodiak]

59. it is.....I'm agreeing with you

and your statement just reminded me of Voldemort.....random thought

[tx_dem41]

48. "Hitler did a lot of good for the German people"

:wow:

Please...please...please, tell me you're joking. Its a parody, right?

[CatWoman]

51. not that I would have dated the guy, you know

but Al Capone was an asshole, but he fed a whole lot of hungry people during the depression.

broaden your mind.

[Joe Chi Minh]

56. ...when the whole fools' paradise .

was turned into rubble, and the prosperity into starvation, degradation and death.

But you are clearly right in the sense that certain individuals, precisely because they were psycopaths leave a significant mark on history, and cut corners without any compunction. Lucifer had at one time been a great angel, and I suppose, as long as he is allowed to wreak a certain amount of havoc on earth, is still a "great" devil.

[Lecky]

67. Hitler was a sociopathic maniac

Yes sociopaths can be very productive...that doesn't make them "great".

[Old sixties guy]

61. Yes,he did say that Hitler was

"wickedly great".Yet he expanded upon that statement by explaining that in much of Western Culture those who have killed and conquered and enslaved millions during European colonialism are viewed as"great men".His logic is that if you went by that defintion Hitler WAS great in that he just committed his genocidal acts more blatantly.
Not a big fan of Minister Farrakhan either but he DOES have signifcant following in the black community and cannot be dismissed as some"nut"or reverse racist.

[jaysunb]

68. yes he said it, but maybe

you should read the entire sentence, and the context into which it was made.

[donheld]

17. These people don't want to know the true Farrakhan

Most people have never sat and listened to the man speak, other than sound bites the MSM has prepared for them. He's a homophobe, he thinks all gay men want to be women, and lesbians men, but other than that i'd say he's quite good.

[Brightmore]

19. So, it's okay to hate gay people?

That's like saying: besides hating gays, Jerry Falwell is quite good.

[donheld]

25. He doesn't hate gay people

He's as far from Falwell as he can get. Have you ever listened to Farrakhan speak? and i don't mean sound bites from MSM.

[Laughing Mirror]

36. It is not OK to hate anybody really, Farrakhan included

At this very moment, there are black gay groups trying to get through to him to change his evil ways. They need everyone's support.

http://washblade.com/thelatest/thelatest.cfm?blog_id=2382

Farrakhan speaks with black gay leaders
Gay participation at Millions More march in D.C. still unclear
By ELIZABETH WEILL-GREENBERG | Sep 8, 12:30 AM

In a conference call with Minister Louis Farrakhan, black gay leaders from New York, Washington, D.C., and Chicago asked that two gays — one man andone woman — speak on the stage at the Millions More march on Oct. 15.

Minister Louis Farrakhan spoke with a group of black gay leaders but would not commit to addressing homophobia at an October march, according to sources. “No one can discuss homophobia or talk about the experience of being a double minority like we can,” Sterling Washington said. Washington, co-chair of the D.C. Coalition and co-founder of the Howard University gay and lesbian student group, BLAGOSAH, participated in the call.

“Farrakhan started off by saying the march was to address problems in the black community as a whole,” Washington said. “We said homophobia was a major issue in the black community and there was a need to address it from the platform.”

. . .

Farrakhan invited the National Black Justice Coalition to become one of about 100 co-conveners of the Millions More Movement march in August. In a letter dated Aug. 15, Farrakhan invited the National Black Justice Coalition to take on the duties of a co-convener.

[niceypoo]

102. Farrakhan is a black Pat Robertson/David Duke

he preaches that the whiteman is the "White devil" and the white race was invented by an African mad scientist. He is a racist kook.

[0007]

32. junior is the nazi. Many times Farrakhan is right on!

[olddad56]

50. and who cares about the Nazi he is talking about.

[Blaq Dem]

81. How many people have Farrakhan killed so far?

I would like to know. Majority of blacks do not follow Farrakhan anyway. If we did, there wouldn't be as many black-on-black crime, out-of-wedlock births, and lower high school graduation rates in poor urban areas. And our middle-class & upper-class would not likely mingle with non-blacks as often.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jaysunb]

5. You forgot this part

During his speech, Farrakhan stressed that members of the Black community must be part of rebuilding affected areas in Mississippi, Louisiana and Alabama. Just last week, Dick Cheney's former company, Halliburton, was awarded a multibillion dollar contract to clean up the devastated areas. Farrakhan says those jobs should go to New Orleans residents.

"There are people from New Orleans, in other parishes from Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama that have a stake in where they live," said Farrakan in his speech. "There are companies coming into New Orleans right now with millions of dollars allocated to them to be paid to clean up the streets from the debris that is there. It is in our self interest that those companies that got the contract hire those of us who are able bodied men and women that can go back to where we live, clean it up and then be a part of the re-building of that city."

[Maraya1969]

8. Yea but they better amend that Bushit proclamation that companies

can pay below the average wage. These people need to be paid whatever any other worker would be paid.

[Amonester]

9. I've read it here that, Bush authorized his buddies' firms to hire

them at below minimum wage...

Wonder if he's heard about this (other) neocon scandal...

(If not: someone should tell...)

[Missy M]

11. I believe it was below prevailing wage not minimum wage.

[NYC]

65. I strongly agree with that.

Allowing the local companies to have the contracts, and hire the local people will help rebuild the hurricane damaged areas and the hurricane damaged people. They need jobs. They should have them rebuilding their own communities. (Outsourcing, just not outside the U.S. this time. Bush's friends profit.)

[cliss]

6. May it be so.

I sincerely hope so.

[Maraya1969]

7. I love this ending

"I can guarantee this from the word of God that your latter state will be better than your present or your former state," Farrakhan stated. And your change is on the way, don't you doubt it, don't you disbelieve it."

[Megahurtz]

22. So Bush gives HALLIBURTON a multi-million dollar contract

:wtf: to clean up New Orleans???:wtf:

INSTEAD of the residents???

Oh my God, the IDIOCY never stops!!!:puke:

[BronxBoy]

64. No it doesn't

But we need to be really concerned about Farrakhan

:sarcasm:

[pitohui]

23. what payback

less talk, more walk

i agree w. what he's preaching but we don't need preaching we need consequences

[jaysunb]

28. And exactly what are "you" contributing ?

n/t

[pitohui]

57. so far i've contributed my dead friend, my house...

let's see what have i contributed

i've lost a friend

i've lost my house

most of my friends and my husband's co-workers and employers have either completely lost their homes or they have severe damage to their homes

oh, and we still have missing ppl that we haven't been able to get hold of

i think we've given an awful lot

you may apologize now

or do i hear crickets?

believe it or not, there are real ppl who are killed & destitute by this storm, i mean it REAL LIVE PEOPLE & some of us can actually read & access the internet

[jaysunb]

76. Now you're being silly

I'll respond to your PM in a thoughtful and dignified manner. Meanwhile, know that I too have friends and relatives who have been affected by this situation, both in NO and Meridian Mississippi.

FYI ,I'm a 62 year old Black male, Viet, and civil rights veteran, who like 92% of the AA community have deep respect for Louis Farrakhan and the truth he tells. His contribution to said community cannot be quantified or understood by non AA and with good reason.

Minister Farrakhan is not a preacher--whatever the hell that is-- that term itself has been used to "identify" Black ministers from all others, in order to denigrate or minimize their influence or effectiveness.
Thus, my response to your post was meant only to point out that fact.

I've been posting at DU since shortly after it's inception, and am still amazed that some people who come here professing to be liberals or progressives are so naive and gullible when it comes to how they process the information they get from the MSM. You and many others on this thread don't have a clue as to what Farrakhan or any other Black leaders are all about. What they REALLY say or how it impacts the people they are saying it to.

In my lifetime there's has NEVER,I repeat NEVER been a single Black leader or spokesperson (man) that has not been vilified and misrepresented in the MSM. It makes it easier to draw superficial conclusions, and appeals to basic stereotypes and racism.

Louis Farrakhan is not a PREACHER. He did not preach to the thousand that voluntarily went to hear him speak. He ministered to their spirits and soul with a message of truth and hope. I know that you and others may not like it, but the millions that flock to hear this truth teller don't really care.

As to the loss of your friend or loved one, I can only send you my sincere regrets, and a quote from Minister Farrakhan circa 1985 after he was labeled an anti-semite for saying, " Hitler was considered a great man by many before and after his assault on humanity."
"I will cry for your 6 million when you cry for my 10 million lost in the middle passage, and the millions upon millions who have suffered from the greatest Holocaust of all times . "

[Judi Lynn]

92. Thanks for contributing these excellent quotes. I can't begin to grasp

how anyone could mangle the first so wildly it was turned into bigot-fodder, but that happens a lot. They have such short attention spans it's difficult for them to do any deep thought or research to get to the truth of things.

Much appreciated.

[The_Casual_Observer]

30. rw/bush gets about 5% of the black vote, so what's new? what payback

doe he have in mind.

[liam_laddie]

46. the black vote

I think li'l georgie boy got about 11% of the black vote, up from 7 or 9% in 2000. That's not an insignificant number of votes. I'm for
anything Farrakhan will do to cut it to zero%! The black pastors
who've been bought off by various "faith-based" monies oughta
look into their own souls, not their wallets. Nuff said...

[Syrinx]

33. that's a tough one

Bush or Farrakhan? Hmmm. I'll have to think that one over.

[BronxBoy]

63. Not tough at all...

Farrakhan didn't abandon thousands of Black people to die. Actually, I don't think he abandoned ANY people to die from what I know.

What's so tough?

[Syrinx]

90. I don't like racists

That's what's so tough about it.

I'm not sure Bush is a racist. I just don't think Bush cares for ANYONE but himself. On the other hand, Farrakhan may not be selfish, but he is surely a racist. I can't easily decide which one is more despicable, though I guess Bush is more dangerous, since he has infinitely more power.

[orleans]

93. regarding "I'm not sure Bush is a racist"

i don't know if i agree with you on that but one thing i do know: he doesn't discriminate as to who he fucks over. except maybe his billionaire "base".

[BronxBoy]

98. OK

I do happen to think Bush is a racist. I also happen to think that Farrkhan is also bigot, an anti-semitie and homophobe that hides his bigotry in some powerfeul truths about the Black experience here in America.

The kicker for me is that Bush has blood on his hands.....lots of it.

[TankLV]

82. Then try "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" approach.

We're not saying you have to love the guy - but why not just stand back and enjoy the show - even quietly applaud his efforts!

We are in a great struggle, and every little bit helps.

It's fun and it's easy!

[Syrinx]

89. that's a good way to look at it, I guess

I don't like Farrakhan. But anything that damages Bush is a good thing! (But I'm not sure criticism from the NOL actually damages Bush.)

[deacon2]

37. I have worked with Farrakhan's people

Supplied large screen projection support for talks in SoCal some years ago. When a few minor logistical issues arose - which were resolved post-haste - I was accused of "lying to the Black Man" and of "being a Jew" as well as a "blue-eyed devil." I found the Jewish accusation troubling for its inherent racism, but took it as no more an insult than to be called a Christian, Muslim or Buddhist. Silly to me. The "blue-eyed devil" charge seemed amusing at the time as well. I was more troubled by being accused of lying about a satellite signal issue which was clear for all to see. That's the core problem with all extremists, it seems. Being unable to acknowledge the obvious when everyone else sees it plain as day. Minister Farrakhan, receiving a hero's welcome in this African American community, uttered many sensible and reasonable assessments of America's race problem at the start of his address. I was actually nodding in agreement with him, until he began to become part of the racial problem by accusing anyone in attendance who wasn't African American of "being the enemy" and so on. That we couldn't help but be the enemy because of "who you are." Being of caucasian persuasian myself, I became concerned as the audience grew restive and more and more scornful looks were cast in my direction. No violence occurred, but let's just say that it felt good to finally finish packing up the equipment and leave as the audience milled about outside hurling racial epithets in my mixed race crew's direction. The racial problem goes both ways in America. I'm sorry if that isn't PC.

[tx_dem41]

43. Why would we want to be associated with Farrakhan?

I have respect for some of his followers, but none for him. He's a political third rail. Touch him and you're dead.

[NaturalHigh]

49. Farrakhan is a racist ass.

I personally don't care what he has to say. He's a cult leader who spreads nothing but hatred.

[NorthernSpy]

58. nature abhors a vacuum...

And the shabby rescue and relief effort has created a vacuum that Louis Farrakhan is able to fill.

During this whole episode, every bigot wanted to know why "those blacks won't help themselves" (as though only white disaster victims should receive the support of the entire nation). Well, I wonder whether the Farrakhan version of black self-help will make the "personal responsibility" nags any happier.

Probably not. Some people just like to bitch.

[NaturalHigh]

74. So that's an excuse for the racial hatred that he spouts?

Farrakhan is no better than an idiot running around with a swastika on his arm wearing a white sheet. If you excuse Farrakhan, you have to excuse the KKK. Personally, I have no use for either.

[NorthernSpy]

83. what a silly remark!

Did you even read what I wrote?

[FyurFly]

77. I cant believe....

that people on this board are defending Farrakhan! He is an anti-Semitic piece of garbage. WOW I feel like I logged onto the wrong site this evening.

[...of J.Temperance]

84. If Louis Farrakhan can help and reunite as many NOLA black folks

As possible, and if his people can assist those displaced NOLA folks, then I'd stand four square behind him.

These poor souls need ALL the help they can get right now. Also the Nation of Islam have had a presence in NOLA for a long time. So a lot of the NOLA displaced will obviously trust Farrakhan.

And I think that in the article that appears with this thread, the article in the original post above, I think Farrakhan says a lot of positive and truthful things. What he said in that meeting in Houston, about the blacks having a say and a stake in the rebuilding of their city is absolutely correct.

I'm hoping that Farrakhan can get together one of those Million Man March things again...a Million People March, but the People this time have to be the Crescent City displaced blacks and they must march to their city and take a stand and fight for the city and the culture that they and their ancestors gave to the city.

I've not normally been a fan of Louis Farrakhan in the past, but I DO fully agree with him on this issue.

[angee_is_mad]

91. Millions More 9/15

and DC. This will be a combination of the Million Man, Million Woman and the Youth marches. I wonder how much TV coverage it will receive, and how much the actual number of attendees will be discounted? ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[FyurFly]

101. Okay, so if the KKK

Wants to assist some disenfranchised people, then I assume you will fully support them as well. If not your a hypocrite plain and simple. Anyone who supports or approves of Farrakhan is a bigot PERIOD!

[Roy]

85. Me too

nt

[JoFerret]

69. Sometimes - the enemy of your enemy

is not your friend.

[goforit]

80. Ouch!!!......Unity is what Bush is scared of.

[ladylibertee]

88. Farrakhan Ministers To Evacuees, Vows To Bush That Payback Is Near

I may not agree with all of what Farrakhan preaches, however, there is a new modified version of the Civil Rights Movement on the horizon and I believe it will cross all races, class and party lines.This, I believe is the "payback" in which he speaks of.It will happen and I look forward in joining in the Movement

[entanglement]

96. Yes! Tell it like it is, Minister Farrakhan!

:woohoo: