China 'acts on forced abortions'

[emad]

Several Chinese health workers have reportedly been arrested or sacked over claims that they forced people to have abortions or sterilisations.

China's state-owned media said the abuses had come to light in Linyi city in the eastern province of Shandong.

US magazine Time said last week that some 7,000 people had been sterilised against their will in Shandong.

Human rights groups often accuse China of forcing sterilisations and abortions - a charge Beijing denies.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/4262890.stm

[SteppingRazor]

1. The Time story was pretty brutal...

It's premium content on the Web, but definitely worth a read if you get a chance. They interview women who had very late-term, forced abortions (as in, a couple of days from delivery), and underwent sterilization. One of the women is now doubled up in pain almost all the time.

The sad part is, that while the Chinese government arrested the offending "health" workers, the government is also the cause of the problem, as it castigated these same workers for the high birth rate in their province.

[fudge stripe cookays]

2. Jesus Christ.

Why is it so difficult for anyone to understand that women should be able to make these choices for ourselves? Not forced to bear, nor forced to abort.

Allowed to CHOOSE for OURSELVES whether we will or will NOT give birth!

FSC

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. Forced gestation- forced abortion...same thing, isn't it?

[Centered]

4. I would rather

give science the opportunity to accurately conclude the exact moment a fetus becomes viable where everyone can agree that you can not abort past this moment. Whether it's 6 minutes or 6 months. I think we can all agree that once the fetus develops into a child there should be no abortion because at that point it is no longer just the mother.

We should turn the philosophical debate into a factual one. And then everyone on both sides can STFU about it.

Either way I think the government should stay out of the issue (fed and local) and the clinic bombing terrorists should never be shown mercy in the courts.

[Bridget Burke]

5. No, let the women choose.

Some of the anti-abortionists oppose the "morning after" pill because it might prevent a fertilized egg from being implanted.

And some "viable" fetuses would have only short, painful lives.

[Centered]

8. I agree

but I was talking about abortion in general I should have been more specific that I wasn't talking about defects or threatening situations for the mother.

I realize that some groups oppose the morning after pill but if it can be proven for a fact that a fetus doesn't feel pain or think until a certain period then that is when the decision (IMHO) should no longer be available barring life threatening situations or defects.

Most of the groups who oppose abortion can be just as wacky in their support of their decisions as those on the other side and alas they may never yield. I would be willing to believe though that if it were proven scientifically at a certain point that a fetus becomes aware at least our side would not push the issue past that mark.

I may get a flame or two but after that point... I would consider it to be murder if everything else were along the lines of healthy child and mother keeping in mind that we are discussing a hypothetical point in time where the fetus becomes aware.

Perhaps the real solution would be to further developments into fetal transplantation to remove the fetus from the biological mother and put it into a willing surrogate. If that would even be possible.

[Bridget Burke]

11. How can you get Creationists to agree on science?

How, exactly, would you find out when a fetus beocmes aware?

[Centered]

13. does the fact they may or may not agree

lessen the importance of knowing for ourselves? If for no other reason then a sentence in a school book I believe it would be a worthy study.

I'm sure there could be several tests to monitor brain activity, hearing, responce, all that type of thing and then to baseline the growth and development.

I agree that like I said... there would probably be some hardliners who wouldn't want to believe and yes we have all heard it before "Life begins at conception" well life may very well begin there... but I would like to know for a fact one way or another when does sentient life begin for a human.

I really am liking the "fetal transplant" thought... how could they possibly argue with that idea :)

[fudge stripe cookays]

6. But see...

the fundie freaks will never subscribe to a scientific viewpoint. As far as they're concerned, the minute that sperm hits that egg, choice is history.

And no, I will never agree that once the fetus develops there should be no abortion. Every situation is different. I have been there. I would never presume to tell another woman what to do with her body, viable fetus or not. Once it becomes DANGEROUS for the mother, I would definitely want caution to be taken, but that's what the controversy over "partial birth abortion" is. It is a baby that would be born profoundly retarded, or born without a brain, or with horrific defects. The child could never live outside the womb.

Any woman who has experienced the heartache of a baby developing with major fetal abnormalities or deformities cannot be judged harshly for her decision. Nor can any woman having to decide what is best for her.

FSC

[Centered]

9. true

yes I should have been more specific as I wasn't thinking about defects or threat to the mother in my statement.

Every situation is different but I was thinking along the lines that if it were to be proven that the fetus were to become aware at a certain point my opinion is that it no longer becomes just the mother's decision. Again barring defect and threat to the mother.

If the child doesn't have a brain it's not an abortion IMO it is simply the removal of a parasite (and yes I am VERY aware that most wackos on the other side of the issue still think it is wrong... well maybe not most of them... but I know for a fact there are some.)

[moobu2]

7. A fetus does not become a child in the womb, sorry.

The government should have no say-so in what medical decisions a woman chooses r.e. her own body in any case.

[Centered]

10. agree

the government should have no say so to a degree.

What I would like to see is to have a medical fact of when a fetus becomes a child... but I have to disagree with you on your subject because clearly at some point in the womb the fetus does become a child sometime within that 9 month peroid it does happen.

I do believe that all outstanding situations being nullified (no hearm to mom and the fetus would develop normally without defect) after a certain point abortions should not be performed. This could be after 6 months... or 8 who knows??? Which is why I would like to know.

Because I believe that if the fetus is aware then it is after this point I do not believe abortions should be performed because at that point I do not believe it is just the womans decision anymore.

I realize you and I may never agree on this and that's ok. All I would ask of anyone is to think about it with an open mind.

I do believe in choice... to a degree however that is not to say that I don't believe an abortion after 8 months isn't murder.

[hippywife]

14. Draw your own line where you will

it's still not your place or anyone else's to tell a woman that she must carry to term. Period.

BTW, scientists are now confirming earlier data that show the fetus doesn't have the neurological structure in place that is required to feel pain until 29 weeks gestation.

[Centered]

15. so you are in favor of aborting even a day before labor?

there comes a point where a "womans rights" can not infringe upon another. That is the difference between being civilized and being barbaric. If you can not at least yield that point to me then you aren't rational.

So 29 weeks is about 7 months and a week to feel pain that sounds reasonable. I think you are under the assumption that I am not in support of abortion though I do not know how you arrive at that conclusion. I am in favor of choice... but I do feel that late term abortion is unethical.

And I'm sorry to disagree with you but no woman (or man) is so high above that it is not society's place to tell them what they can or can not do. That's why we have laws...otherwise rape would be legal because it's my body and I'm horny. Sorry for the crude illustration but it points out that at some point your will can impose on another's. If scientists are able to determine that after 29 weeks a fetus develops a neurological system capable of processing pain then I would say start there and see what else can they determine. Once again I point out my question of when a fetus becomes aware. Not that all abortion should be banned.

If however in the spirit of rebellion and freedom you wish to say that you are in favor of aborting a fetus mere moments before labor then have the courage to say so. Otherwise have the sense to read my thoughts and either agree or disagree but at least stay on target. At some point that fetus becomes a baby and so are you saying that a woman or a government should still have the ability to kill it?

It is well documented that some "abortions" in China occur at 81/2 months and later... do you feel these are abortions? I personally do not because we know that an 8 1/2 month fetus/baby can survive on it's own. These women may have wanted these children so would you stand with them and denounce that activity?

Don't be so passionate about an issue that you can't discuss it without taking a tone please.

[yowzayowzayowza]

12. Do you envision any...

population level which would over-ride your personal choice? How great a risk of famine do you have the right to impose on others?